Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (Amendment) Order 2011

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Thursday 20th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I support the Motion. I am sure that, now the Minister is in government, she realises how unbelievably difficult these decisions are. The TTP was around when I was Minister for Security. It was extremely difficult to pull together enough information to make certain that one needed to do this because, as the Minister pointed out, this is quite a step to take. One has to weigh up not just what it does to stop it being able to do the dreadful things it wished to do, but how much it might garner support within certain ill-informed parts of our community and abroad. That is very difficult to do.

My noble friend Lord Reid mentioned HuT. While I was in government, we were continually lambasted about it, but it was very difficult to highlight and pin down specifics to enable us to do this within our law. We must not step forward quickly and do these things. To do that quickly and wrongly is a terrible mistake. My noble friend Lord Reid mentioned that. We have to be very measured and careful. Each time, we have to think about what the effects are within our communities in this country and overseas. Partly in answer to my noble friend Lord Harris, I think that the judgment has to be that if the threat is to our people abroad, not just our civilians but also our servicemen who are out there doing things for our nation, that is just as great an issue as things happening within this country, and all of those issues are an important balance. I support this Motion. These are very difficult issues. They are not at all party political, but are very important for the nation. We have to be very careful, and we need to scrutinise each decision.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, I broadly concur with what other noble Lords have said in support of this order. I wonder whether the House is aware that over the past decade 60,000 to 70,000 people have been killed in terrorist attacks in Pakistan, yet not a single successful prosecution has been brought in the Pakistani courts. While proscribing an organisation is indeed an extremely grave and serious matter, one has to live with the reality that if a country that has less than ideal procedures for taking people through due process is unable to take control of these elements of its population, it rests on the rest of us to ensure that our populations are secure and safe.

I am a little disappointed that it has taken this long to proscribe this organisation, as I know from a great deal of openly available evidence in the Pakistani communities that it has left its signature against some of the most heinous crimes committed in recent years. It has a rather innocent sounding name “the community of the learned students of Pakistan” and sounds entirely inoffensive, but in fact it is armed to the teeth, it has some of the nastiest propaganda at its disposal and it particularly selects people who support human rights to target. The Minister told us of its attacks on the Ahmadiyya community in Pakistan, a peaceful, law-abiding, extremely well educated community that provides professionals, such as doctors and others in the most difficult professions, who work across the country to alleviate poverty and hardship. They specifically target this community because they have a warped view of what their religion comprises. In the past two years, they have also taken to targeting journalists and lawyers. I personally know of people in Pakistan who have been sent anonymous letters, whose fax numbers have been obtained and who have been told by this group, “We are watching you, we are going to come and get you”. I would have thought there was sufficient evidence to have proscribed them some time ago.

The Government’s statement talks about the possibility of de-proscription and my noble friend mentioned that 46 organisations have been proscribed under these powers. Can she tell us how many have applied for successful deproscription because as a liberal at heart I am very conscious of free expression? It worries me that organisations, once proscribed, would find themselves in that situation and unable to be deproscribed. I wonder if she could tell us how many applications there have been and how many have been successfully de-proscribed. We must recall that freedom’s struggles in other parts of the world involve organisations that—due to the exegesis of their operating circumstances—might have been somewhat implicated in some kinds of violence. Yet when they revert to the path of peace, it is also right that we reconsider their standing at that time.

I hope it is not too wide of this particular order to ask the Minister what steps the Government are taking to train up judges, police officers, forensics teams and so on, so that Pakistan is better equipped to bring people to trial itself rather than waiting for them to be unable to travel to other countries.

Finally, on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, a lot of these organisations are known, the minute they are proscribed, to sail under a new flag. In other words, they find another innocent-sounding name but their aims continue as before and many of the same individuals are involved in the same heinous activities.

Several noble Lords have made reference to the Hizb ut-Tahrir, which is established perfectly legally in the United Kingdom. I would not therefore draw that analogy as it is an entirely different ball game, but can my noble friend tell us, since it is not clear to me, whether this organisation is established in any sense openly in this country?

Extradition: Gary McKinnon

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Thursday 16th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

If I might respond to the first part of my noble friend’s question, one of the factors that influenced my right honourable friend the Home Secretary to stay the judicial review that was in progress was precisely the desire to take a second look at the question of Gary McKinnon’s medical condition. The House will understand that she has asked for a separate and impartial view to be taken of his medical state.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, did the Minister or any members of the current Government have discussions with the Americans about this case when they were Opposition, and were they given any indications about how the Americans would behave with regard to it?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

I have not had any discussions with the Americans and I cannot, without notice, answer for other members of the Government.

Police: Retirement

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Monday 6th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, this is an operational matter for the police and I am sure that they will take note of what the noble Lord has just said. A number of chief constables, including the head of the Metropolitan Police Service, have indicated that they do not wish to lose the experience that is available to them. I remind the House that this power is available to the police. It permits them to retire people; it does not oblige them to do so.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, my question relates to specialisations. I accept that these decisions have to be made by local police forces but, for example, as the Minister will well know, people such as counterterrorist support officers working for NaCTSO tend to be at the very end of their careers and have huge experience. I believe that somehow the Government have to make a judgment in the overall balance of the advice that goes, for example, to the architectural industry and other areas. Does the Minister have any way of measuring the cuts that are being made in various areas so that there is a national view of the impact on areas as important as counterterrorism?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, as I have just said, this is a power that is open to the police, and senior police officers are not obliged to take this measure, among the measures that are open to them. The Government are clear that we need police to be available on the streets. HMIC has noted that 11 per cent of the available police force is invisible to the public at any given moment. In other words, we need to drive out a great deal of the bureaucracy that was imposed on the police by the previous Government. I am absolutely certain that the police will take their responsibilities seriously in ensuring that terrorism does not in any way prevail in this country.

Intellectual Assets: Crime

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

The noble Lord puts his finger on a very important issue, and one that will be a concrete and identified part of the strategy that the Government are developing. Clearly we need to have proper competences in government and co-operation with the private sector, and to build skills in this country, which means enhancing the necessary studies at our universities. We must also encourage best practice and good behaviour among all cyberusers—individuals as well as companies.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I know that the noble Baroness shares my view about the importance of cyber, and I welcome the extended work on that. However, her initial Answer did not quite give the right impression that we are still looking at the problem. Am I not right in saying that whole areas—for example, whole engines and their entire design specification, and whole aircraft and their design specification have been taken from companies in this country and America? We know that that has happened. That information is already there and it is important that it is acknowledged by the Government—it was certainly acknowledged by the previous one.

This might be more difficult, but I would be interested to know the answer. Mr Jonathan Evans, head of the Security Service, mentioned China as a specific country. Would the noble Baroness be willing to agree with that, or is it too sensitive to talk about?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

I think that I will refrain from rising to that one. The noble Lord is quite right that this is one of the reasons why we have fixed our eyes on this threat. It is real. There is evidence that theft has taken place and it must be stopped, so there is no dispute between us. In my original Answer I was saying that we are trying to put a value on the losses. In other words, we are doing some historical work but also looking at the trend lines to be able to know more than we do at the moment about both the volume and the nature of the threat we face.

Terrorism Act 2006 (Disapplication of Section 25) Order 2010

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Monday 19th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, I have a question and, although it may appear tangential, I hope your Lordships will feel that it is a question that I am justified in putting to the Minister. She spoke of the Government’s commitment to protecting our hard-won democratic liberties. Should that principle not be applied seamlessly and consistently across all areas of policy? If so, why are the Government not allowing the House of Commons the normal time to scrutinise the Academies Bill? I know it is not a Home Office responsibility, but there is collective responsibility across government as a whole. Parliament is where our democratic liberties are most importantly enshrined, and I would be grateful if the Minister would be willing, on behalf of the Government as a whole, to explain that.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I had not intended to speak today, but my noble friend Lady Kennedy raised a point that I would like to touch on. It relates to how other countries hold people. When I was Security Minister, I discovered—I shall not say to my horror, but to my surprise—that an awful lot of those countries have other mechanisms whereby people are held for unbelievably long periods. The mechanisms are very cleverly crafted so that they do not break any rules, but I found them quite horrifying. It is very dangerous to make those comparisons either within the Commonwealth or within Europe. I can think of one European country not far away that has been holding someone for just over five years in a very clever way so that it does not break these rules. I am very glad that we have not gone down that route. I am also very glad that we are debating this point, as our party believes very strongly in civil liberties and we look at things like this as being very important. We did all the time that I was Security Minister—three years. We need to be careful about comparisons. I do not think we have anything to be ashamed of at all in this country.

My other point relates to English law, common law and the wonderful history of this country. It is perfect for a case where you have a murdered body lying on the floor, you investigate that, you find someone who is guilty and you charge them. It is not good when all you have is lots of intelligence. We have found that that intelligence is very often very accurate, but it is not evidence. That makes these cases somewhat different.

The way the Government propose to go forward is eminently sensible. Looking at these issues across the board is very important, but let us not rush into something. We have a good record here. Yes, it seems very harsh, some very horrible things happened and there are a lot of people who mean to do us very great harm. We need to bear that in mind when we weigh all this in the balance.

[Lord Ahmed]

My Lords, in her opening speech, the Minister mentioned terrorism in Northern Ireland, Islamist terrorists and al-Qaeda Islamist terrorists. I am a little confused. Will she explain the difference between all these terrorists?

Freedoms and Civil Liberties

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Thursday 8th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead]

The noble Baroness mentioned identity cards. At Buckingham Palace on Tuesday, I was delighted to have one because I did not have to take a passport, a council tax bill and my driving licence. One needs to be wary about this because we do need to prove our identity. My question relates to the totality of security and defence of the nation. The human rights aspect is part of that. Do we now have a date when the new national security strategy will be in place? Clearly, it is absolutely fundamental to the strategic defence and security review. One is slightly concerned about the timescales, bearing in mind that the review will have to come up with answers for the CSR by October. Do we have a date when that new strategy, which underpins everything, will be in place?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, we are straying far from the Question. However, that is being worked on at the moment in conjunction with the strategic defence and security review. We will certainly produce both papers in the autumn.

Immigration

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Thursday 3rd June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, those are very good questions. I shall not trespass on the hypothetical question of whether it would have been different had we had intercept as evidence. It is clearly a relevant issue, which is one of the reasons why we want to explore its availability. As for control orders, cost is clearly one element in considering what we need to do to keep the people of this country safe. The efficiency of the regime is also an element. We are considering precisely those issues in our review of control orders.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I had not intended to speak, but the Minister’s answer raises a number of questions. First, when will the control order study be finished? Are we looking at something that is fairly rapid? The next relates to the resources being used to look at subjects of interest. There is a difficult balance to be struck between the cost of control orders and the cost of doing it in other ways. I am concerned that, as the CSR comes galloping down the track towards us, we can ensure that we have the money required for surveillance of the subjects of interest. As the Minister well knows, it is a very close-run thing. I want to be sure that that money will be protected.

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, the Government will not—I repeat not—put the safety of this country at risk. As for the noble Lord’s question on the review of control orders, I can tell your Lordships' House that we are looking at it now; it is an issue for the present. I cannot tell your Lordships exactly when the review will be completed. It is more important that it is done properly than that it is done very quickly.

Immigration: Detention of Children

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, I will look into that point. I cannot give the noble Lord a definitive answer. All I can say is that we intend to proceed with this really fast. This review will not take very long. I hope that that timescale can be met.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I, too, congratulate the Minister on her new post. I was delighted to hear her say how well the previous Government had done, which I never thought that I would hear. This shows the complexity of this entire subject. Having been beaten around the Floor of this House again and again by my friends, particularly those who were Liberal Democrats in the past, people are realising how extremely difficult it is. When I looked at this in the past, the difficulty was that one might apply sanctions and restrictions on people that were even worse than having people in detention for a short period. Will the Minister confirm that we will not do that in trying to ensure that we get these sometimes quite cute people who use children as a way of getting around our laws and that we will ensure that we do not put the children in a worse circumstance?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his kind words. The object of the exercise clearly is to alleviate the situation of children and not to make it worse. I take the point that he is making and we will look at it in our discussion of the arrangements with the stakeholders to whom we are talking.