Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories

Debate between Lord Walney and Lord Collins of Highbury

Monday 9th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

I think the noble Lord knows the answer. For those who have advocated a two-state solution and support parties towards it, obviously a precondition is the security of the State of Israel. We are absolutely committed to that. On the progress towards a two-state solution, we have been working with the Palestinian Authority, which does recognise that, and we have had progress in the past. But we want to ensure that we support those in the Palestinian Authority who can deliver that two-state solution that the noble Lord referred to. So I do not disagree with him; I just think that he implies—and I strongly say—that we see recognition as part of the process towards the establishment of a two-state solution. We do not see it as the end in itself. When the time is right to do that, it will be when we can deliver a more secure basis for that solution.

[Lord Walney (CB)]

My Lords, the situation in Gaza is horrendous, and any new settlement building is completely wrong. Can I press for a greater understanding of the Government’s position on aid delivery? I follow the logic of what the Minister says—that aid should not be delivered to further any political or military objective—but then what do the Government think of the way that aid has got in until now? When the Minister sees massed Hamas gunmen on top of aid trucks and sees the Hamas operatives threatening death to anyone who takes aid that is not through that route, surely the Government understand that that route is also fundamentally compromised.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

The only word my noble friend uses that I disagree with is “fundamentally”. We have been working with all UN agencies and with NGOs to ensure that Hamas does not interfere with distribution. We have made that absolutely clear, and we have strongly condemned such interference. But the simple fact is that we know that the delivery of aid via private companies is dangerous for civilians and for aid workers and cannot possibly deliver aid to all who need it. That is why we continue to press the Government of Israel to permit the full and unhindered resumption of aid flow into Gaza, and that should take place immediately. By far the most effective way to meet the desperate needs of the Gazan people at the speed and scale that is needed is via overland routes, with the UN agencies and NGOs that we have supported delivering that aid.

Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories

Debate between Lord Walney and Lord Collins of Highbury

Thursday 22nd May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

We have been absolutely clear that the proposals by the Israeli Government will not meet the humanitarian aid situation, which is so desperate. It is really important to acknowledge that, of course, words hurt. Of course it is wrong to quote numbers without verification, whether they contribute to the situation or not, but what are we talking about: 14,000, 7,000, or 1,000 babies? What number is acceptable? I heard Tom Fletcher on Radio 4. He was obviously a dedicated civil servant, he was a diplomat, and I was moved by his comments. He is a man who is absolutely committed to his job. I am not going to respond to the numbers he quoted, but I will respond to what he made very clear: that the situation is so desperate that we need action within 48 hours. That is what this Government are demanding, and that is why we have imposed these restrictions on the Israeli Government. The noble Lord knows my views about the security of the State of Israel, and I just think that the Netanyahu Government are doing nothing to ensure the security of Israel.

[Lord Walney (CB)]

My Lords, I consider Tom Fletcher a friend and former colleague. On a personal level I also consider the Minister a friend, but will he reflect on what he has just said? I do not doubt that Tom Fletcher hears this and feels very sincerely, but the claim that 14,000 babies would die in 48 hours was a grotesque inaccuracy. As the Minister has said, in the early hours of this morning two Israeli embassy officials—Sarah Milgrim and Yaron Lischinsky—were gunned down on the streets of the American capital by a gunman who shouted: “Free Palestine”. I am deeply troubled by and oppose what is happening with aid in Israel and Gaza right now, but these words matter. We have a growing level of extremism and hate and a risk to British Jewish citizens here that may well result, I am afraid to say, in similar action being taken on the streets of London. We have to do more to stand up against the demonisation of Israel while this conflict is going on.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

I will not tolerate any demonisation of Israel or its people. It is people who I am most concerned about. I have very good friends in Israel and have been a supporter of Israel’s security for many years, so I will not take lessons about this. I am not interested in the figures that Tom Fletcher cited; I think he was trying to convey the urgency of the situation, which requires Israel to stop blocking aid getting into Gaza. That is the issue. Aid must never be used as a political or military tool, and that is what is happening. We are absolutely concerned to take those actions.

I say to my friend, the noble Lord, Lord Walney, that we should all be concerned about the impact on communities and community violence, particularly antisemitism. We should not tolerate antisemitism in any form whatever. I will not tolerate any trope that leads to that sort of language, but I will not stop being extremely concerned about the humanitarian situation in Gaza. It should concern us all that so many people are suffering—that food and water are not getting in. It absolutely needs to be addressed now.

India-Pakistan: Escalation

Debate between Lord Walney and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 7th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for those questions. He is right. Last week, in addressing an Urgent Question, we covered the water treaty and appealed for it not to be disrupted. As he says, access to water is fundamental to human life. I understand his point about airspace. Any action by both Governments that can de-escalate and create that opportunity for a return to stable relationships is important.

All our diplomatic efforts are to ensure that de-escalation, which I know my honourable friend Minister Falconer stressed earlier today, and we are working through all possible channels to deliver that message. The noble Lord is also right to focus on community cohesion, and we will focus on that, too. It is not just the Government’s voice; we need to ensure that all community leaders and faith leaders can embrace that call. I welcome his comments very much.

[Lord Walney (CB)]

My Lords, the final report from my noble friend Lord Austin on the tensions and violence in Leicester in 2023 is obviously still awaited, but can the Minister reassure the House that officials across government and locally in those regions have been able to apply lessons from what happened in 2023 to ensure the greatest possible resilience and outreach between communities and no repeat of that violence?

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

I agree with the noble Lord. All government departments, particularly my colleagues in the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government, are absolutely focused on learning the lessons of the past, and I think they will be very aware of his comments. The current situation is such that we need to do more: we need to call on all community leaders and faith leaders to stress the importance of de-escalation and working together as good neighbours in the United Kingdom, which I think can have a positive impact on the relationships between the two countries concerned.

Middle East

Debate between Lord Walney and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 22nd January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

Like my noble friend, I had the opportunity to visit the Occupied Territories and I certainly visited schools. I looked at many of the facilities that UNRWA provided, and they are an essential mechanism for delivering that humanitarian aid. My noble friend makes a very important point, which again raises the issue of the role of civil society. Like the initiatives she mentioned in terms of teachers, there is a role for all kinds of civil society. We have heard about faith groups—I would mention trade unions. I had a long association with the Palestinian trade union federation. I think we can do more to encourage civil society from all quarters to support that reconstruction. So, I agree with my noble friend: there are great opportunities for the future here.

[Lord Walney (CB)]

I know the Minister is not going to dismiss the substantial evidence that has built up over the years of extremist poison being injected into the minds of young Palestinians through the school system. But, whatever the past, does he agree that it is very hard to see a more tolerant future if this were still to occur? Will he commit the UK to make clear to the Palestinian Authority that any further support for it will be contingent on there being no extremism within the education system?

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

Building confidence and trust is not an easy thing to do over the long period of conflict that we have seen, and that is true of every area of conflict. We need to ensure that we define what peace means and what are the benefits and dividends of it, because there are great opportunities in Palestine and in Israel to develop economic progress in a way we have not seen before, and that peace can deliver. That is what we need to focus on. Looking back to old definitions, particularly the terms of terrorism, can hold back the building confidence process. I have spoken to many Israeli organisations working for peace in Israel and they are focused on ensuring that they look to the future, that we do not look at the past, and that we certainly build trust among young people.