Elections Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Lexden

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Committee stage
Wednesday 23rd March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, my name is on some amendments in this group. As Members of the Committee will know, I am extremely disturbed by this Bill as a whole and by the way it has been introduced. Of all its provisions, I think Clause 11 is the least justifiable, introduced as it was after a Written Statement by a middle-range Minister last September after the Bill had already begun its Committee stage in the House of Commons, and pushed through for clearly partisan reasons.

On Monday, the Minister was asking us to look at the practice on voter ID in other countries as a justification for what the Government propose. I am sure he recognises that in the Irish and Danish constitutions, any change in the voting system is a constitutional amendment and therefore has to go through exceptional procedures. That is also true in a number of other countries. In this respect, of course, he will probably say that we should pay no attention to other countries. I deeply respect that, privately, the Minister knows this clause is impossible to defend, and I recognise that he nevertheless has to stand up for it as best he can in the circumstances that this was a Conservative pledge in 2017 and someone up there has not forgotten that.

Yesterday, I read a very good article in the Political Quarterly of 2019 entitled “The UK Politics of Overseas Voting” by Susan Collard; I will return to it when we get on to overseas voting. One of the things that struck me about the introduction was that it talked about the package of measures that might have been agreed among the parties in 2016-17 about voting reform. It was discussed among the parties in the Commons that we could have moved towards automatic voter registration to reduce the number of people not on the register—by and large, the young and the marginal. We could have had a major effort at citizen engagement to encourage people to go to the polls. We could also have included votes at 16, which would almost definitely have helped the Labour Party, the Liberal Democrats, the Greens and others. In that context, overseas voting and the extension of overseas voting would have been part of the same package. That could have been negotiated as part of a—

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

Were these official interparty discussions or informal exchanges?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

These were exchanges on and off the Floor of the House of Commons.

That would have been a major set of changes to voting rights that might even have included some form of examination of our voting system. I draw attention to Amendment 140, which suggests that we need a citizens’ assembly on methods of voting for different elections in this country. That would be highly desirable, encouraging an intelligent approach and taking out of the control of parties the question of whose advantage is most looked to in this respect.

This Government have mucked about with local government over an extended period. I am not a great fan of metro mayors—certainly not metro mayors without the scrutiny of elected assemblies—but the Government have them. The Government have reduced the number of local councillors, and now they want to muck about with the system, partly because what Michael Gove and other enthusiasts thought they wanted—independently minded people like we saw in New York and Chicago—has not yet emerged very strongly. But some of those who emerged are rather good, or not so good, Labour candidates, who do not please the Government. Be that as it may, we have a current system for elected mayors.

The only argument, in effect, that the Government can make in defence of this change is that the voters of London and other cities are not as intelligent as their counterparts in Ireland, Scotland and elsewhere and are not capable of understanding a complicated system such as the supplementary vote and therefore we have to go back to the first past the post. That is not a good argument, and I look forward to hearing what alternative argument the Minister may wish to produce.

One of the problems with the first past the post system is that it works really well only when there is a clear two-party system and the two-party system has broken down in almost all democratic countries in recent years, except for the United Kingdom and the United States. In the United Kingdom and the United States, factionalism within both major parties has almost wrecked our politics, partly because the extremists —or less moderate—in both major parties have done their best to take over their party rather than going off and forming their own.

I was very struck by an argument made by the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, during our previous day in Committee, which was that you need to be very careful about how the selection process for candidates works because in most constituencies in Britain the selection process decides who will be the MP. The attraction of any form of alternative voting, supplementary voting or proportional representation is that it gives the voter some choice among candidates.

EU: Future Relationship

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Lexden

Wednesday 23rd September 2020 Grand Committee

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

My Lords, the Committee will now resume. I call the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, I hope you can hear me. Good.

In his opening speech, the Minister talked about the Government’s well-established position on state aid. I am puzzled by that and I hope that he can explain. My understanding is that the European Union rules to which we now object were largely drafted by British Ministers and officials under Margaret Thatcher’s Conservative Government and that the Government’s current position on state aid has changed radically since last December, largely under the influence of the Prime Minister’s special adviser Dominic Cummings, but is not yet entirely clear. Perhaps he can explain.

We are now approaching the end of the transition period. That means, as the City of London briefing spells out, that we have to focus on what it describes as

“the necessities of the UK’s future trading relationship with the EU”—

and not just the trading relationship. Britain cannot escape its geography, for all the nonsense put out by Brexit Central and others after the referendum about the irrelevance of geography to Britain’s future. The number of British citizens who travel abroad for holidays, study, or work to the European continent dwarfs the number who travel to Australia, New Zealand and the western Pacific. The City memorandum points out that 75% of the data flows across the UK’s borders are with European countries. Cross-border crime is predominantly a matter affecting neighbouring countries. Britain’s security, society and economy will all continue to be profoundly affected by the ease or difficulty of interaction with our neighbours across the channel.

The maintenance of close relationships requires a legal framework that is treaty based, as again the City memorandum stresses. Treaties limit national sovereignty: they build relationships of “shared sovereignty”, as Sir Geoffrey Howe—that great and true Conservative—used to argue. The closer the levels of interchange, the denser the network of legal agreements that is needed to ease cross-border working. British Border Force personnel work in France under a bilateral agreement. British police exchange data on criminals with their counterparts in the Netherlands and Spain within a legal framework that safeguards confidentiality. British researchers collaborate with respected counterparts in Germany, Sweden and Finland. British holidaymakers have benefited for the past 40 years from access to a European health card in case of illness—a mutually advantageous arrangement, from which a large number of Conservative voters have benefited over the years and which the Government are now, sadly, determined to abandon.

To manage this future relationship, from 1 January 2021 —three months from now—we need a legal agreement: a partnership, spelled out in treaty form. One of the most dishonest statements that the Government keep making to the public is that we can opt for an “Australia-type agreement” with the EU, when no such agreement exists. A no-deal future relationship threatens damage not only to our economy but also to our security and to the openness of our society.

Successive British Governments, from James Callaghan and Margaret Thatcher onwards, have negotiated agreements with our neighbours to manage the rising intensity of interactions between us—within the framework of the European Union. Our current Prime Minister signed up to a declaration 11 months ago on our future partnership, which envisaged a network of agreements to manage our unavoidably shared interests. Since then, however, he has retreated, under pressure from the ultras in his party and those now in the Cabinet who were previously in the Referendum Party or UKIP. The noble Lord, Lord Frost, has spelled out a doctrine of sovereignty that would suit North Korea but makes no sense for a democratic country with an open economy.

Worst of all, the level of hostility expressed by Ministers, Conservative MPs and the right-wing media towards the Governments of France, Germany and the other members of the EU has risen alarmingly. The City of London briefing that we have all received expresses

“growing concerns that acrimony between the UK and EU may result in a failure to reach an agreement … a no deal outcome would be likely to engender ill will on both sides and damage the future UK-EU relationship.”

Even if the Government reach a last-minute deal, the image of a Government who distrust their neighbours and break international treaties when they feel like it will damage Britain’s ability to sort out the unavoidable problems that will follow from our more distant relationship. The Prime Minister talks about a global Britain and an independent foreign policy, but the failure to maintain close co-operation with our European partners in international organisations and negotiations across the world would leave us dependent on the limited good will of whoever comes out of the contested American presidential election and our distant friends in New Zealand and Australia.

Before the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, repeats yet again her accusation that any criticism of the Government’s stance flows only from remoaners who never wanted to leave, I stress again that we are now debating the future, not the past. We are debating the framework within which our holidaymakers will travel next summer, the difficulties that British banks will encounter if agreements on data flows and financial flows have not been reached, and the obstacles that British police and intelligence will face if there is no clear legal structure within which to maintain the co-operation that they have built within Europol.

The noble Lord, Lord True, is a real Conservative, not one of those who have entered the party from more right-wing groupings as more moderate Conservatives have left or been expelled. I hope and trust that if the Prime Minister deliberately crashes the final stages of the negotiations and leaves without a deal, the noble Lord will follow other colleagues and resign. The national interest requires a deal, and the Government will betray the national interest if they fail to agree one.

European Union Referendum Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Lexden

Wednesday 28th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

I would like to make a small point of clarification, if I may, as far as the Irish Republic is concerned. At some point under Mrs Thatcher’s Government—I cannot remember the exact year—the Government of the Irish Republic extended to British citizens living there those voting rights that Republic of Ireland citizens have here. If British citizens are excluded from a referendum in the Irish Republic, it is because there is a separate electoral roll for that. As far as parliamentary elections are concerned, we are on all fours with the Irish Republic and have been for some years.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

May I ask a factual question of the Minister, which, again, he may not be able to answer immediately? Are we sure that we can identify on the British electoral register who are British citizens, who are Irish citizens and who are Commonwealth citizens? I am not aware, from my time looking at electoral registers, that these are listed separately. If they are not listed separately, would it be possible to identify them between now and a referendum that might be in six or 12 months’ time? That seems highly relevant to the ability to apply this amendment, if passed.

Defence Review

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Lexden

Wednesday 25th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I was not aware of the issue that the noble Lord has just raised. The next security and defence review will certainly look at how to squeeze the most out of the defence procurement process.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

Returning to current spending, will the £25 million allocated in the Budget to military veterans be extended to former service men and women in Northern Ireland?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I am assured that it will be extended to Northern Ireland and that the MoD is quite clear that this is a UK scheme and not just a Great Britain scheme.

Electoral Register

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Lexden

Thursday 19th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I thank the noble Lord for his normally generous comments. The sheer heavy weight of the Labour Government’s ID proposals seemed to me and many of my colleagues to make it an unavoidable failure. There is a debate about the shift to a digital relationship between the citizen and the state, which we will have to have, and about convenience against privacy, which we need to have as we move forward. My right honourable friend Francis Maude and others working on the Government Digital Service have made a good deal of progress in that regard.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

Does the Minister have any information about the growth in the number of 18 to 21 year-olds on the register?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

Since 1 December, some 700,000 16 to 24 year-olds have applied to register. We do not have an exact figure on what proportion that is because the figures on how many 16 year-olds will be eligible to vote in the election are not exact because we do not have all their birthdays.

Electoral Registration

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Lexden

Wednesday 4th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, the Government have engaged in a range of activities on social media and are using National Voter Registration Day as a means of raising national attention. Two of my ministerial colleagues are speaking in parallel at a barracks tomorrow to deal with the problem of underregistration among defence personnel. The Government will also, through the FCO, be attempting to raise the amazingly low level of overseas registration. We are working on this, but I repeat that the Government cannot do all of it on their own. I put something out on Liberal Democrat Voice, my own party’s site, two weeks ago encouraging all our activists to engage with local schools and other bodies. I am sure that the Labour Party is doing the same, in so far as it can.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

In view of the success of the work done in schools in Northern Ireland by its chief electoral officer, will the Government encourage his counterparts throughout the country to publicise the details of the work that they are doing in schools and the results that flow from that?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I have been in active conversation with electoral registration officers over the last year and more. The Government have just provided another £6.8 million for electoral registration officers, targeted on particular areas which have low registration, by and large in the cities. I also stress that the provision of online registration, which has been going now for a year and through which 3.33 million people have already registered, is very much one of the ways we get at young people. Knowing young people, including my own children, I think this is something that young people are likely to register on at the last minute.

Hansard Society: Audit of Political Engagement

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Lexden

Thursday 16th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lexden]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the Audit of Political Engagement published by the Hansard Society in April 2014.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, while some of the findings are more positive compared with those published in the previous survey in 2013, there remains a number of results that should concern us all—for example, regarding the accountability of MPs and perceptions of Parliament. The Government, politicians, the media and many others in society all have a role to play in engaging people in democracy and overcoming a number of significant challenges to us all that are highlighted in the audit.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

I declare my interest as a trustee of the Hansard Society, which is proudly celebrating its 70th anniversary, having been founded in the latter stages of the Second World War by one of the most remarkable of independent MPs, Stephen King-Hall. I pay tribute to my noble friend in the Cabinet Office for renewing its financial support for the widely respected Audit of Political Engagement. Does my noble friend agree that above all the audit underlines perhaps the greatest challenge that we face as a democratic body—namely, the widespread disinclination to cast votes in general elections, particularly marked among the young, which we must all labour to correct?

Representation of the People (England and Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2014

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Lexden

Monday 12th May 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, I am not a Methodist minister and shall be very brief. I support very strongly the comments made by noble Lords about the importance of action in schools. Like them, I have been greatly impressed by the results of the initiative in Northern Ireland. Speaking as a strong unionist, particularly where Northern Ireland is concerned, I would regard it as an absolute tragedy if lessons that could be usefully drawn from that part of our country went by the wayside and here in Great Britain we failed to profit as we might. I hope that my noble friend will consider very carefully that which Northern Ireland might have to teach us in this matter. He is noted for his open-mindedness and there is perhaps merit in a little further consideration of what has happened in Northern Ireland.

He will be unsurprised that I listened with great interest to the comments he made on the implications of these regulations for British subjects living overseas who are eligible to vote here. I gained the strong impression from what he said that the effect of the changes will be to assist the efforts that some of us, including my noble friend Lord Tyler, are encouraging to seek greater registration among British citizens living abroad who are currently eligible to vote. I know my noble friend supports those efforts, too.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their various contributions. I will take all the thoughts back with me. Let me start by saying that we are all concerned about the problems of low registration. The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, really talked about two different problems: we are mostly concerned here about problems in getting young people on to the register. There is another problem, which is people who actually do not want to be on it. We have all been through some of the estates where a large number of people are not on the register and quite strongly tell you—as they put their bull terrier on to you—that they do not want to be on it. That is of course another part of the problem.

Electoral Fraud

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Lexden

Tuesday 1st April 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, we have been through that debate over an extended period. The Government are not persuaded that the original ID card scheme was necessary. It would be extremely costly. As far as voting is concerned, the level of allegations of voting fraud and impersonation is remarkably low. There were in the order of 179 allegations of different sorts of electoral fraud last year, for example, which is within a range of confidence as to the problems we face.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

Many believe that postal voting fraud is widespread. Is my noble friend confident that it is not?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, postal vote fraud has always been there. I am old enough to remember constituencies in which representatives of at least one party would go round old people’s homes and fill in the ballot papers with the matron. I will not name which parties might have been engaged in that. That is not new. Postal vote fraud is a problem with which we are all concerned. That is why postal vote identifiers have now been tightened up.

Electoral Registration

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Lexden

Wednesday 5th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, one of the five organisations that I was able to announce yesterday that the Government are funding to deal with target groups and vulnerable groups is Mencap. We ask Mencap in particular to have regard to that.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

Could my noble friend comment on the initiatives being undertaken by the Hansard Society in conjunction with the Cabinet Office—initiatives that could have a marked effect on the number of young people registered to vote?

Profumo Inquiry

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Lexden

Thursday 18th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lexden]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they intend to release the records and files of the 1963 inquiry which led to the publication of Lord Denning’s report The Circumstances Leading to the Resignation of the Former Secretary of State for War, Mr J.D. Profumo.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, no decision has yet been taken on the future of the information held by the Cabinet Office on the Denning inquiry.

[Lord Lexden]

Does my noble friend agree that the records relating to Lord Denning’s inquiry constitute an immensely valuable historical source which, if released, would deepen our knowledge and understanding of one of the most sensational political scandals in British history? Does he also agree that a cloud of suspicion hangs over the Denning report? It has been described as “the raciest and most readable blue book ever published”. It has also been depicted as an endorsement of tainted evidence from journalists and the police used at the trial of one of the principal protagonists in the extraordinary drama, Dr Stephen Ward. That is the view of Mr Richard Davenport-Hines, author of the latest detailed account of the Profumo affair. There was collusion between the police and journalists 50 years ago on a scale that would make Lord Justice Leveson’s hair stand on end. Do we not need to see if we can get to the truth through the release of the Denning records?

Order of the Companions of Honour

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Lexden

Thursday 6th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lexden]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have plans to increase the membership of the Order of the Companions of Honour.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, the Order of the Companions of Honour is restricted to a membership of 65 plus the Sovereign. There are no plans to increase the membership of the order, which currently carries a number of vacancies.

[Lord Lexden]

My Lords, in thanking my noble friend for his reply, I should perhaps make a declaration of non-interest to assure the House that I do not seek to suggest that I should be admitted to this great order. However, since there are no fewer than 24 vacancies, it is rather tempting to propose the names of admired friends—men and women from all parts of the House—although at the moment I would be slightly reluctant to include anyone from the government Front Bench, even my noble friend, for the following reason. Does he agree that anyone looking at the composition of the order today might well think that it is designed primarily for politicians, who constitute no less than half the current membership—21 out of 41? They are, of course, all most worthy recipients, but should not the order reflect more fully the glorious era of British culture and sport in which we are living? Why has no poet been appointed since 1993, no writer since 1999 and no musician since 2000, to help fill the 24 vacancies? As for sport, should not more of its stars be appointed to join its one current representative—my noble friend Lord Coe?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, the Order of the Companions of Honour is only one of the orders of honour in the British honours system. Service to the state is, after all, one of the central principles under which the various orders have been created. Politicians who belong to the Order of the Companions of Honour have all provided considerable service to the state. Indeed, 16 of them are Members of this House. However, as the noble Lord has also noted, there are a number of people who have made considerable contributions in the fields of music, theatre, fiction writing, history, science and elsewhere. I am happy to say that David Hockney, with his very close connection with Saltaire, is also a member.

Electoral Registration and Administration Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Lexden

Wednesday 23rd January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I start by declaring an interest: I have two sisters, two nephews and one son who are British citizens living abroad at the moment. At least three of them, I think, are dual nationals; this is, of course, one of the many complications in addressing this. I said at an earlier stage that I knew a British civil servant who had gone to visit his cousins in Vermont so that he could vote in the US presidential election—on the right side, I am happy to say. This is one of the many complications in addressing this large area. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, for ensuring that the Government will take a more active approach to this consideration from now on. I should criticise my noble friend Lord Tyler for suggesting that there could be, possibly, sunnier climes than Cornwall. I thought, when I was a boy and saw the Cornish Riviera Express go by, that it was called that because Cornwall was very warm. Among the messages that I, and probably others, have received from voters abroad—in particular from a group in the Var, Provence—have been some rather abusive messages suggesting that any attempt to take away the winter fuel allowance from people living in Provence would encourage them all to register en masse.

This is a complex area, and the short debate we have had suggests the many complexities that exist. The Government’s view remains that the franchise for UK elections is set out in primary legislation, and that it should be changed by primary legislation and not by regulation. It was pointed out earlier that, of our 4.5 million potential overseas voters, only 30,000 were registered at the peak in 2010. That is weak evidence that there is a pent-up demand that we are failing to satisfy.

The French have a great many more overseas residents registered, but the French approach to registration of citizens abroad is very different from the British one. Certainly, the Foreign Office would have to consider the consular resources available for much more active registration of British citizens abroad. I think the right figure at the moment is that some 50,000 British citizens abroad are currently registered with consulates, which suggests that if we were to follow the French model, we would be going through a whole sea-change in our relations with our overseas citizens. We do not know how many of our estimated 5.6 million overseas citizens are dual citizens; we do not know how many of them were born in Britain or born abroad. We have some interesting questions about how this would work: for example, in which constituency would British citizens born overseas be registered when they wished to vote? There are a very large number of questions even before we get to the question of special constituencies for them, and I would suggest that the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, should pursue the question of an all-party inquiry into this rather neglected area, not leaving everything to the Government here.

The choice of constituency, after all, is a contentious one. I recall many arguments in the past between the two coalition parties about the way in which people who have second homes in Devon and Cornwall might be registered, and about the constituency in which they should vote. In marginal seats, the addition of a very substantial number of overseas voters could alter the whole political balance. I will criticise the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, for pinching my joke, and say that of course, if we are prosecuting someone for fraud, the European Arrest Warrant is appropriate for use against people in Spain and Cyprus.

Having said that, I encourage the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, to withdraw his amendment. We recognise that he has made his mark on the Government. There is a delicate issue here. I note that the Irish simply do not give the right to vote to their overseas citizens. I suspect they think that there are simply too many of them and that they would outweigh the domestic constituency. There are large questions here about what rights we might grant, for how long and for how many people we might grant them, and whether we should grant them for people who were born abroad. We might appropriately consider these questions, but, I suggest, not in the context of the Bill. Now that the noble Lord has registered his point with considerable vigour, I encourage him to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Lexden]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to my noble friend for suggesting that I undertake the considerable duty of giving consideration to the establishment of an all-party inquiry. I am extremely interested in that suggestion. If I may, I will seek a meeting with him about how that might proceed. On the face of it, an all-party inquiry is extremely attractive.

The Bill has now provided the House with two major opportunities to consider the current seriously flawed and inadequate electoral arrangements for our fellow British subjects living overseas. I hope that our discussions have created a better understanding in Parliament of the issues, and at least challenged some of the misconceptions that have long been rife. I hope, too, that they have given at least a measure of encouragement to British expatriates. Large numbers of them will have watched our proceedings today and last week with keen interest. Many in this House will share my strong hope that many more expatriates eligible to register under the existing 15-year rule will exercise their right, as consideration continues to be given to the removal of that rule.

As my noble friend the Minister emphasised, the issues are firmly on the political agenda. They need to be pursued, in detail, with vigour and care. In these circumstances, it would be inappropriate to divide the House. In the knowledge that efforts to secure progress will continue, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Spencer Perceval

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Lexden

Wednesday 25th April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I should like to know which sister he is descended from, because my understanding is that he had at least six sisters and at least six brothers. I should therefore explain that he was one of the many sons of the Earl of Egmont, so he was not entirely a commoner.

[Lord Lexden]

My Lords, would my noble friend think of reminding Mr Henry Bellingham that he has already experienced the Perceval family’s taste for revenge, having been deprived of his Commons seat at the 1997 election by a direct descendant of the assassinated Prime Minister?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I have to admit that that was not in my brief. Perhaps I might add that Spencer Perceval was, like Wilberforce, an evangelical, and having read a little about him, I have to say that he was something of a prig. Included within his entry in the Dictionary of National Biography is the fact that in 1800 he wrote a pamphlet on Biblical prophecy in which he referred to the French Revolution as,

“a divine instrument destined to destroy popish superstitions”,

and identified Napoleon Bonaparte as the woman in Revelation, chapter 17,

“who [sits] upon a … beast … the mother of harlots … drunken with the blood of the saints”.