Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Vallance of Balham Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 18th December 2024 Grand Committee

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, that we published our analysis of the consultation responses to the previous Home Office investigation in November 2023, so all those mixed responses are on the record. It was therefore concluded by the Government that further work needed to be done on this. On my noble friend’s report, was there a government response?

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

Yes, the Government accepted the recommendations in full.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

Before the Minister sits down or stands up or whatever the appropriate phrase should be, I very much hope that, since the previous Government gave that indication, this Government will take that as a spur to non-glacial progress. I hope that at least the speed might get up to a number of miles per hour before too long.

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Ultimately, we need to know considerably more about this before Report, so I ask the Minister to write with a detailed technical description of the proposed solution, terms of reference for the consultation exercise and the Government’s plans to drive international adoption of their approach or to adapt their approach based on international proposals.

[The Minister of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Lord Vallance of Balham) (Lab)]

As someone who has spent my life creating IP, protecting IP and sometimes giving IP away, I welcome this debate. I am extremely grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for a very thoughtful set of proposals. The fact that many noble Lords have spoken in this debate shows that the rapid development of AI has clearly raised concerns about how to protect the creative industries. The Government take this very seriously. As the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, pointed out, we need to get it right, which is why we have launched a very wide-ranging consultation on a package of interventions to address copyright and AI issues. It is an important first step in an area where the existing situation is clearly not working and we run the risk of many long-lasting court cases, which will not help the situation in which we find ourselves.

We are committed both to supporting human-centred creativity and to the potential of AI to unlock new horizons. Many in the creative industries use AI very widely already. Our goal is to support AI innovation in the UK while maintaining robust protection for creators and our vibrant creative industry. In response to a point that the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, raised earlier, option 1 in the consultation refers to existing copyright law and asks for views about maintaining and increasing it. The consultation sets out the Government’s objectives for this area and proposes a range of measures on which we are seeking views. Specifically, it aims to support rights-holders to continue to exercise control over the use of their content and their ability to seek remuneration for this. As many noble Lords have pointed out, that has to be made easy and technically feasible. It also promotes greater trust and transparency and proposes mechanisms by which you can see who is looking at the data and what they are doing with it.

Finally, it aims to support the development of world-leading AI models in the UK by ensuring that access can be appropriately wide but, of course, lawful and with the approval of those it is got from. This includes the subjects of the noble Baroness’s amendments. The consultation seeks views on technological measures that can provide greater control over access to and use of the online material, as well as transparency measures that help copyright owners understand whether their work is being used by AI developers. Again, this needs to be made easy. Various technologies are coming along which can do that, including, as has been said, the watermarking approach.

Much of this needs to be wrapped into an approach to standards. It is important that this is done in a way that is reproducible and reliable. Through this consultation, we will address some of these issues and seek to continue to get input from stakeholders on all of them. We will also work towards internationally interoperable solutions, as raised by many noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, and the noble Earl, Lord Effingham.

I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, that a vibrant and effective licensing approach—a system that works well and provides access and rights—is important. She asked about an impact assessment. I do not have the information with me now, but I will write. I look forward to updating her on this work in due course and, in the meantime, hope that she is content to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Kidron (CB)]

Does the Minister recognise the characterisation of noble Lords who have said that this is theft? Currently, we have a law and copyright is being taken without consent or remuneration. Does he agree with them that this is what the creative industries and, I presume, some of his community are experiencing?

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

At the moment we have a system where it is unclear what the rights are and how they are being protected, and therefore things are being done which people are unable to get compensation for. We can see that in the court cases going on at the moment. There is uncertainty which needs to be resolved.

[Baroness Kidron (CB)]

I thank the Minister for his answer and welcome him very much to the Dispatch Box—I have not yet had the pleasure of speaking with him in a debate. I hope he saw the shaking heads when he answered my question about theft and this lack of clarity. If you say “Write me the opening chapter of a Stephen King novel”, and the AI can do it, you can bet your bottom dollar that it has absorbed a Stephen King novel. We know that a lot of this material is in there and that it is not being paid for. That goes for issues big and small.

I understand that it is late and we have more to do—I have more to say on other issues—but I want to reiterate three points. First, creative people are not anti-tech; they just want control over the things they create. AI is a creation on top of a creation, and creative people want to be paid for their efforts and to be in control of them. I am not sure whether I can mention it, because it was in a private meeting, but a brand that many people in most countries will have heard of said: “We need to protect our brand. We mean something. An approximation of us is not us. It is not just the money; it is also the control”.

I also make the point that, earlier this week, Canal+ had its IPO on the London Stock Exchange. I heard the CEO answer the question, “Why is it that Canal+ decided to come and do its IPO in the UK when everybody else is scarpering elsewhere?”, by saying a lot of very warm-hearted things about Paddington Bear, then, “Because you have very good copyright laws”. That is what they said. I just want to mention that.

Finally, I am grateful to the Minister for saying that there is the option of staying with the status quo; I will look at that and try to understand it clearly. However, when he writes about the issue that I raised in terms of opting in or opting out—I am grateful to him for doing so—I would also like an answer about where the Government think the money is going to go. What is the secondary value of the AI companies, which are largely headquartered in the US? Where will the IP, which those companies have already said they want to protect—they did so in their response to the Government’s consultation; I said that it in my speech, for anyone who was not listening—go? I would like the Government to say what their plans are, if we lose the £1.6 billion and the 2.4 million jobs, to replace that money and those jobs, as well as their incredible soft power.

With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Vallance of Balham Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 16th December 2024 Grand Committee

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, I address the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. These proposals aim to transfer jurisdiction from courts to tribunals; to establish a new right of appeal against decisions made by the Information Commissioner; and to grant the Lord Chancellor authority to implement tribunal procedure rules. I understand and recognise the noble Lord’s intent here, of course, but I have reservations about these amendments and urge caution in accepting them.

The suggestion to transfer jurisdiction from courts to tribunals raises substantial concerns. Courts have a long-standing authority and expertise in adjudicating complex legal matters, including data protection cases. By removing these disputes from the purview of the courts, the risk is that we undermine the depth and breadth of legal oversight required in such critical areas. Tribunals, while valuable for specialised and expedited decisions, may not provide the same level of rigorous legal analysis.

Cases such as those cited by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones—Killock and another v the Information Commissioner and Delo v the Information Commissioner—demonstrate to me the intricate interplay between data protection, administrative discretion and broader legal principles. It is questionable whether tribunals, operating under less formal procedures, can consistently handle such complexities without diminishing the quality of justice. Further, I am not sure that the claim that this transfer will streamline the system and reduce burdens on the courts is fully persuasive. Shifting cases to tribunals does not eliminate complexity; it merely reallocates it, potentially at the expense of the detailed scrutiny that these cases demand.

I turn to the right of appeal against the commissioner’s decisions. Although the introduction of a right of appeal against these decisions may seem like a safeguard, it risks creating unnecessary layers of litigation. The ICO already operates within a robust framework of accountability, including judicial review for cases of legal error or improper exercise of discretion. Adding a formal right of appeal risks encouraging vexatious challenges, overwhelming the tribunal system and diverting resources from addressing genuine grievances.

I think we in my party understand the importance of regulatory accountability. However, creating additional mechanisms should not come at the expense of efficiency and proportionality. The existing legal remedies are designed to strike an appropriate balance, and further appeals risk creating a chilling effect on the ICO’s ability to act decisively in protecting data rights.

On tribunal procedure rules and centralised authority, the proposed amendment granting the Lord Chancellor authority to set tribunal procedure rules bypasses the Tribunal Procedure Committee, an independent body designed to ensure that procedural changes are developed with judicial oversight. This move raises concerns about the concentration of power and the erosion of established checks and balances. I am concerned that this is a case of expediency overriding the principles of good governance. While I acknowledge that consultation with the judiciary is included in the amendment, it is not a sufficient substitute for the independent deliberative processes currently in place. The amendment risks undermining the independence of our legal institutions and therefore I have concerns about it.

These amendments overall, while presented as technical fixes, and certainly I recognise the problem and the intent, would have far-reaching consequences for our data protection framework. The vision of my party for governance is one that prioritises stability, legal certainty and the preservation of integrity. We must avoid reforms that, whatever their intent, introduce confusion or inefficiency or undermine public trust in our system. Data protection is, needless to say, a cornerstone of our modern economy and individual rights. As such, any changes to its governance must be approached with the utmost care.

[The Minister of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Lord Vallance of Balham) (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for his Amendments 108, 146 to 153 and 157, and I am grateful for the comments by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, and the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose.

The effect of this group of amendments would be to make the First-tier Tribunal and the Upper-tier Tribunal responsible for all data protection cases. They would transfer ongoing as well as future cases out of the court system to the relevant tribunals and, as has been alluded to, may cause more confusion in doing so.

As the noble Lord is aware, there is currently a blend of jurisdiction under the data protection legislation for both tribunals and courts according to the nature of the proceedings in question. This is because certain types of cases are appropriate to fall under tribunal jurisdiction while others are more appropriate for court settings. For example, claims by individuals against organisations for breaches of legal requirements can result in awards of compensation for the individuals and financial and reputational damage for the organisations. It is appropriate that such cases are handled by a court in conformance with their strict procedural and evidential rules. Indeed, under the Killock and Delo examples, it was noted that there could be additional confusion in that ability to go between those two possibilities if you went solely to one of the tribunals.

On the transfer of responsibility for making tribunal procedural rules from the Tribunal Procedure Committee to the Lord Chancellor, we think that would be inappropriate. The committee is comprised of legal experts appointed or nominated by senior members of the judiciary or the Lord Chancellor. This committee is best placed to make rules to ensure that tribunals are accessible and fair and that cases are dealt with quickly and efficiently. It keeps the rules under constant review to ensure that they are fit for purpose in line with new appeal rights and the most recent legislative changes.

Amendment 151 would also introduce a statutory appeals procedure for tribunals to determine the merits of decisions made by the Information Commissioner. Data subjects and controllers alike can already challenge the merits of the Information Commissioner’s decisions by way of judicial review in a way that would preserve the discretion and independence of the Information Commissioner’s decision-making, so no statutory procedure is needed. The Government therefore believe that the current jurisdictional framework is well-balanced and equitable, and that it provides effective and practical routes of redress for data subjects and controllers as well as appropriate safeguards to ensure compliance by organisations. For these reasons, I hope the noble Lord will not press his amendments.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response to my amendments and welcome him to the Dispatch Box and a whole world of pain on the Data (Use and Access) Bill, as he has, no doubt, noted already after just two hours’ worth of this Committee.

I found his response disappointing, and I think both he and the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, have misunderstood the nature of this situation. This is not a blend, which is all beautifully logical depending on the nature of the case. This is an absolute mishmash where the ordinary litigant is faced with great confusion, not knowing quite often whether to go to the court or a tribunal, where the judges themselves have criticised the confusion and where there appears to be no appetite, for some reason, in government for a review of the jurisdictions.

I felt that the noble Viscount was probably reading from his previous ministerial brief. Perhaps he looked back at Hansard for what he said on the DPDI Bill. It certainly sounded like that. The idea that the courts are peerless in their legal interpretation and the poor old tribunals really just do not know what they are doing is wrong. They are expert tribunals, you can appear before them in person and there are no fees. It is far easier to access a tribunal than a court and certainly, as far as appeals are concerned, the idea that the ordinary punter is going to take judicial review proceedings, which seems to be the implication of staying with the current system on appeals if the merits of the ICO’s decisions are to examined, seems quite breathtaking. I know from legal practice that JR is not cheap. Appearing before a tribunal and using that as an appeal mechanism would seem far preferable.

I will keep on pressing this because it seems to me that at the very least the Government need to examine the situation to have a look at what the real objections are to the jurisdictional confusion and the impact on data subjects who wish to challenge decisions. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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Moved by

[Lord Vallance of Balham]

133: Clause 89, page 112, line 24, at end insert—
“(10) In section 199(2)(a) of the Investigatory Powers Act 2016 (bulk personal datasets: meaning of “personal data”), after “section 82(1) of that Act” insert “by an intelligence service”.”Member’s explanatory statement
Clause 88 of the Bill amends section 82 in Part 4 of the Data Protection Act 2018 (intelligence services processing). This amendment makes a consequential change to a definition in the Investigatory Powers Act 2016 which cross-refers to section 82.

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

These four technical government amendments do not, we believe, have a material policy effect but will improve the clarity and operation of the Bill text.

Amendment 133 amends Section 199 of the Investigatory Powers Act 2016, which provides a definition of “personal data” for the purposes of bulk personal datasets. This definition cross-refers to Section 82(1) of the Data Protection Act 2018, which is amended by Clauses 88 and 89 of the Bill, providing for joint processing by the intelligence services and competent authorities. This amendment will retain the effect of that cross-reference to ensure that processing referred to in Section 199 of the IPA remains that done by an intelligence service.

Amendment 136 concerns Clause 92 and ICO codes of practice. Clause 92 establishes a new procedure for panels to consider ICO codes of practice before they are finalised. It includes a regulation-making power for the Secretary of State to disapply or modify that procedure for particular codes or amendments to them. Amendment 136 will enable the power to be used to disapply or modify the panel’s procedure for specific amendments or types of amendments to a code, rather than for all amendments to it.

Finally, Amendments 213 and 214 will allow for changes made to certain immigration legislation and the Online Safety Act 2023 by Clauses 55, 122 and 123 to be extended via existing powers in those Acts, exercisable by Orders in Council, to Guernsey and the Isle of Man, should they seek this.

I beg to move.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, I will keep my comments brief as these are all technical amendments to the Bill. I understand that Amendments 133 and 136 are necessary for the functioning of the law and therefore have no objection. As for Amendment 213, extending immigration legislation amended by Clause 55 of this Bill to the Bailiwick of Guernsey or the Isle of Man, this is a sensible measure. The same can be said for Amendment 214, which extends the provision of the Online Safety Act 2023, amended by this Bill, to the Bailiwick of Guernsey or the Isle of Man.

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

I thank the noble Viscount.

Amendment 133 agreed.