Procedure and Privileges Committee

Debate between Lord Trefgarne and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Monday 14th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, who is as earnest a reformer of your Lordships’ House as I am. Before coming on to the substantive argument, I have a couple of comments on what the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, said.

First, I regret what he said about Public Health England. I point out to him that the people working for it have been working all hours and doing a tremendous job. They are officials; they are part of the Department of Health. We argued against this on the Health and Social Care Act 2012, but the Government insisted that they lose their independence and they were brought into the department. They are officials and cannot speak for themselves; the person accountable for their performance is none other than the Secretary of State. It is a great pity to hear such nonsense from some noble Lords opposite on the responsibilities and duties of public officials.

Secondly, the noble Lord referred to issues being rushed through this House. Of course hybrid working is not perfect and there must be some trade-offs, but this is a good opportunity to say how much I appreciate what has been done and how effective we have been. Members of the Commons tell me how they wish they could follow the way we have been able to do this.

On the substantive issue, surely the nub of my noble friend Lord Grocott’s argument is that, at the height of the many issues this country faces at the moment, the idea that we should waste time on these ludicrous by-elections is complete nonsense. Also, I would be very surprised if the Procedure Committee made any recommendation to your Lordships’ House that did not keep fully within the law. The decision to postpone these elections is very sensible.

The noble Baroness, Lady Meyer, referred to the House of Lords Act 1999, on which the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, was a leading actor for the Opposition and I was the Government Whip in the Lords. I think I sat through every minute of those riveting debates. The premise was very much that reform would soon follow. We saw what happened: first, my noble and learned friend Lord Irvine’s White Paper did not get very far; he and I served on a Joint Committee chaired by Jack Straw—if he remembers—which attempted to produce a consensus on a way forward, which did not make as much progress as we would have hoped; then the coalition Government attempted Lords reform. It is time to accept—I regret it as much as the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde—that reform is some way off.

We are in the process of trying to reduce the House. There has been general agreement on all sides that we should do it. Frankly, it would be a modest contribution to suspend the by-elections a little longer. The Procedure Committee has gained a reputation over the years for taking its time on difficult matters. I suggest it take a very long time indeed before it decides to allow these ridiculous by-elections to go ahead.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, I will not detain your Lordships for more than a few moments. I very much agree with the position taken by my noble friend Lord Mancroft. These hereditary Peer by-elections should and, I hope, will remain in place until—as was said back in 1999—House of Lords reform is complete. I had the privilege the other day of having a small piece published in the New Statesman in which I described what I thought might be an appropriate form of House of Lords reform. To be honest, I would not oppose an elected House, but I do not believe the idea would ever get through the other place. I am therefore more than happy to support something rather more modest, as I said in my piece, to which my noble friend Lord Strathclyde referred. These by-elections are provided for in law. They should happen as soon as possible. I very much support my noble friend Lord Mancroft.

House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Trefgarne and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 15th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I apologise for confusing the procedure. I simply wanted to say a few words before we get to the Marshalled List. The plain fact is that the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, and I, who disagree over the Bill’s provisions, as is well understood, none the less agree on a number of important issues relating to this matter.

The noble Lord has on several occasions drawn attention to the very small number of Peers who vote or take part in hereditary Peer by-elections for the Liberal Democrats and the Labour Party, and I do not disagree with that curiosity. I therefore would not oppose the idea that all hereditary Peer by-elections be conducted on an all-House basis, as are those by-elections for officeholders at present. He has also drawn attention to the small number of female Peers—

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I wonder whether the Minister might help the House understand what is actually taking place.

Procedure Committee

Debate between Lord Trefgarne and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Thursday 30th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, as regards the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Steel, as the Chairman of Committees will know, the current Government have enunciated a new rule, if you like, that the proportion and number of Members of your Lordships’ House should bear direct comparison with the votes cast at the last general election. I should like to ask the Chairman of Committees, if a political party had a catastrophic reduction in the votes cast at the next election, am I right in thinking that we would expect a considerable number of resignations from that party? I am not at liberty to say which party I am thinking about but I assume that we would have to have extra Friday sittings to hear the valedictory speeches.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

I should like to make two points. First, I do not agree with my noble friend Lord Steel about financial inducement to retirement. That would be a very bad precedent and I hope that it will not happen. Secondly, what are the detailed arrangements for giving Royal Assent to Bills? Who is supposed to give that assent? Is it the Minister in charge of the Bill or someone else?

House of Lords Reform (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Lord Trefgarne and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Friday 28th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, perhaps I may seek clarification. I referred in my remarks to the report from the committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell. That has apparently been approved by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, and the shadow Justice Secretary, Mr Sadiq Khan, so presumably it is jolly far down the way of becoming Labour Party policy. Can he also comment on whether the account of those proposals in the paper today is accurate?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, the account was in the Daily Telegraph, so noble Lords will have to make their own judgment as to how accurate they think the Daily Telegraph is. As my noble friend Lord Grenfell has already made clear, this is a report by Labour Peers. It received a great deal of support at the meeting of Labour Peers on Wednesday. It is a contribution to the debate. I speak as deputy leader of our party in the House of Lords and I very much welcome the report and the recommendations that it makes. I believe that they are very sensible. They provide a solution to the interim problems that we face. In my view, they do not conflict with more substantive reform, when that comes.

House of Lords Reform Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Trefgarne and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Friday 10th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Trefgarne]

The purpose of the amendment is self-explanatory and I do not intend to detain your Lordships on it. I beg to move.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

I apologise to the Speaker but it would be helpful to have the view of the noble Lord, Lord Steel, on the amendment before we move to a vote on it.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

I think it is perfectly reasonable, but my noble friend said that he was not moving it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Trefgarne]

I beg to move.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, should explain to the House the consequences of changing “shall” to “may”. It may be of some significance. The House is owed an explanation.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, as I am ordered to explain, it is simply for clarity and the avoidance of doubt.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

I know that we are on Report but that will not do. The noble Lord’s Bill is very clear on when the House may deem that a Member has taken permanent leave of absence. If we substitute “shall” for “may”, surely that leads to a rather confusing picture. I rather resist this.

[Lord Trefgarne]

I do not wish to delay your Lordships. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.