House of Lords Reform (No. 2) Bill

Lord Trefgarne Excerpts

Friday 28th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, I will make only a modest contribution to this debate. As far as House of Lords reform generally is concerned, my view happens to be that we should move to a largely if not wholly elected Chamber. I accept that that is on the whole a minority view, certainly on this side of the House, but that is my view and long has been. I also believe that if we were to have such a Chamber it should have powers not dissimilar to those of the other place, and I can well see that there would be objections to that coming from there. Be that as it may, House of Lords reform generally is back on the agenda, it would seem.

As the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, reminded us—and I share the dismay that he will be leaving us so soon—the Labour Party has apparently published a new policy on this matter. It comes from the pen of the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, and his colleagues, I understand, but I presume that to be Labour Party policy, or the bones of Labour Party policy, when we get to the next election. I express one dismay about that: yet again the Labour Party seems to be disconnecting itself from the views and wishes of the people. A few weeks ago, Labour Peers assisted in the failure to pass the European Union (Referendum) Bill, which would have allowed the people to express a view on that matter. Now apparently they are proposing a Chamber of largely appointed Peers, which, again, does not seem to represent the essential Labour principles to which we had assumed they were attached.

[Lord Grenfell]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord but I should correct him on one point. This is a report from a group of Labour Peers to their fellow Peers; it does not mean that it is Labour Party policy. It is the views expressed by a group of Labour Peers of what we think might be, and would like to see as, Labour policy. The other point is that we are certainly not recommending an appointed House. We deliberately avoided trying to find an answer to the knotty question of whether there should be an elected or appointed House. That has to wait, in our view, for a constitutional commission.

[Lord Trefgarne]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for that clarification. I am particularly grateful because, referring to one sentence in the report—I assume this likewise to be in error—the Daily Telegraph says:

“All hereditary peerages would be abolished and no more should be created”.

Apparently that is not the view of the noble Lord’s committee and I am happy to hear it.

Turning to the Bill, I broadly support what is proposed. At one of the earlier stages—I forget which one—I referred to the problem of overseas convictions of Members of your Lordships’ House. That matter has been dealt with and I am grateful for that. Therefore, I, likewise, hope that the Bill will proceed to the statute book fairly swiftly.

Finally, I would like to refer to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral. I am so sorry he is not in his place. He described at some length his wish for some financial arrangements. I think he was saying that they should perhaps not come from public funds but from some other source. I am obliged to remind your Lordships that in 1999, 600 or so hereditary Peers left without so much as a penny. I say to my noble friend the Leader: if support for departing Peers is to come from public funds, I should be very much opposed to that, or if it is to happen it will have to be backdated to include the 600 or so hereditary Peers of 1999, which I dare say will create problems in the Treasury, even more than there are at present. But it would not be just to provide Peers who are allowed to depart now on a voluntary basis, or even on a compulsory basis, with financial recompense when in 1999 not so much as one penny was provided. Of course, I accept what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, was proposing, which I think was a private fund of some sort, and that would be a different matter. But I hope that departing hereditary Peers from 1999 might likewise be considered for support from that measure.

I, too, share the hope that the Bill will shortly reach the statute book and will do nothing to prevent that happening.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, perhaps I may seek clarification. I referred in my remarks to the report from the committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell. That has apparently been approved by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, and the shadow Justice Secretary, Mr Sadiq Khan, so presumably it is jolly far down the way of becoming Labour Party policy. Can he also comment on whether the account of those proposals in the paper today is accurate?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, the account was in the Daily Telegraph, so noble Lords will have to make their own judgment as to how accurate they think the Daily Telegraph is. As my noble friend Lord Grenfell has already made clear, this is a report by Labour Peers. It received a great deal of support at the meeting of Labour Peers on Wednesday. It is a contribution to the debate. I speak as deputy leader of our party in the House of Lords and I very much welcome the report and the recommendations that it makes. I believe that they are very sensible. They provide a solution to the interim problems that we face. In my view, they do not conflict with more substantive reform, when that comes.