Avian Flu

Lord Teverson Excerpts

Wednesday 16th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right that this is a tragedy for populations of particular seabirds. Bass Rock, just south of Edinburgh, has been white for centuries but is now black; that is a visual reminder of the impact the disease is having.

I assure her that we are working hard. Information is available on the GOV.UK website about what people should do if they find a bird or are concerned about one. We are calling in the best advice. The Joint Nature Conservation Committee has been commissioned to set up an advisory recovery group on monitoring data and evidence on whether existing conservation interventions are working and new conservation interventions that may help.

As I said, we are working internationally through the European Food Safety Authority. Our chief vet is in regular contact with colleagues in Ireland and elsewhere, including of course in the devolved Governments. We have a clear strategy, which is available for people to see, to resolve the issue.

Dealing with the disease in poultry settings is vital but it is harder to deal with among wild birds. Still, we have a clear strategy to try to mitigate it. Some possible good news is that there is evidence that some birds are developing degrees of resistance to avian flu, but it is too early to say why that is or quite what the effect will be.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, early in this outbreak there were gaps in the collection of wild birds’ carcasses, between local authorities, landowners and Defra. Is the Minister now convinced that those gaps have been filled and that lessons have been learned for inevitable future outbreaks of avian flu?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I cannot tell the noble Lord that there will never be any problems. I can report that yesterday, for example, there was a park in a town where the council said that it was not its job to pick up carcasses, it was the Environment Agency’s—which said that it was someone else’s job. These things happen. We are trying to be as clear as we can with the guidance. There should be no silo thinking here. We need these matters resolved as quickly as possible. I can assure the noble Lord that if he has any reports of where there are difficulties, I will take it up and we will try to iron them out, but there are clear processes. This is an emergency that we are dealing with on a national scale.

Import of Animals and Animal Products and Approved Countries (Amendment) Regulations 2022

Lord Teverson Excerpts

Tuesday 17th May 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

I apologise to my noble friend for speaking after her, but I used to chair—until it was abolished—the EU Environment Sub-Committee, of which the noble Lord, Lord Trees, was an excellent member. One of the things we were really concerned about was that, when we moved out of the EU, we no longer had access to TRACES, which, as the Minister will know, is the main system for controlling biological security in animal and food products. Exactly as the noble Lord pointed out, we have put off these import controls I think three times. Can the Minister clarify how we are substituting the information we had from TRACES and how that now works? Are the Government satisfied with it, and where will we go with it in future while we wait for those biosecurity controls to come in in respect of the EU?

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his introduction and for the helpful briefing he organised beforehand. I begin by very much echoing the concerns raised by the noble Lord, Lord Trees, about the Government once again delaying checks on food imports from the EU, and the biosecurity and consumer protection implications of all that. I also very much welcome the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, on TRACES; we have discussed the issue many times and were always assured that there would be alternatives for TRACES in place, so it would be useful to hear from the Minister whether that is now the case or not.

I thank the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee for drawing these proposals to the attention of the Committee and their implications for the loss of parliamentary oversight. The Explanatory Memorandum has set out the changes made by previous EU exit SIs and provides an explanation as to why these provisions are not considered sufficient to deal with urgent cases. We are acutely aware of the ongoing and changing threats to our animal and plant biosecurity, as well as to human health, and the need to have robust measures in place to act swiftly when new threats arise, as the noble Lord, Lord Trees, said. As such, we are sympathetic to the case being made and do not intend to vote against these regulations.

However, the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee has quite rightly pointed out that, once again, we face the loss of parliamentary oversight on the imposition of these urgent measures. It specifically proposes that the Minister be asked to give an assurance that the regulations will be used only on the rarest of occasions, so I ask on its behalf: can the Minister give an assurance that the powers will be used only on the rarest of occasions?

Following on from this, I have some detailed points which I would like the Minister to answer. First, if our response times because of parliamentary delays have led us to be vulnerable to biosecurity and food safety risks, why has it taken Defra until May 2022 to address this concern? What has been happening in the meantime? Have we left traders and consumers exposed to extra risk because of our inaction? I would be grateful if the Minister could explain why nothing has been done before now.

Secondly, in correspondence with the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee about the capacity of the animal disease policy group, Defra responded:

“The expertise, capacity and processes required to exercise the powers in this instrument appropriately are well established within government, and have already been used to effectively control a range of SPS … risks since January 2021.”


If we already have the means to control these risks effectively, does that not rather undermine the need to give the Executive these extra powers? Could the Minister give some examples of the effectiveness of the current control regime to provide some context to this debate? What are the effective control measures? Where were they lacking? Why do we need to give Ministers extra powers? Friends of the Earth has also written in, asking about the independence of the bodies making these decisions. It would be helpful if the Minister could shed some further light on the independence of the bodies carrying out these risk assessments and making recommendations to Ministers.

Thirdly, the correspondence from Defra makes it clear that the new powers will be used to impose import restrictions not just where there was a new biosecurity risk but also to lift existing import restrictions if, for example, a country had successfully controlled an animal disease outbreak. This point was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell. Can the Minister explain why existing parliamentary oversight cannot be maintained for the lifting of import restrictions? This does not seem to be as urgent as when a new biosecurity threat emerges—where action may be needed in days or, at most, weeks. There would very much seem a role for Parliament in overseeing the lifting of import restrictions and in making sure that the country of import had taken all the necessary action.

Finally, paragraph 7.5 of the Explanatory Memorandum outlines some of the risks of delayed action. It talks about the threat of retaliatory action against exports from Great Britain. It also mentions the threat of intervention by the WTO. The Minister referred to this in his introduction. Can he expand on this concern? I am struggling to understand what these threats are. Can he give a scenario as to how serious this risk of WTO intervention is? From what he said about retaliatory action, are we developing a reputation for responding slowly to biosecurity risks? Is this a real concern about which we should be aware? I am just trying to understand what our competitor or trading nations feel our biosecurity level is and what the threat of retaliatory action is. It would be helpful if the Minister could shed some light on this. I look forward to his response.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I am not sure if the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, wants to intervene, but I would like a bit more clarification. Is the alternative to TRACES up and running or not? The Minister talks about it still being developed—is it there? Is it functioning?

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

I thank the noble Baroness for intervening. It sounded rather like work in progress to the extreme; I thought we would be rather further ahead than that.

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

It will always be a work in progress, because we are developing new intelligence and data on what is going on. We have a formal system with the EU in our relationship as a third country and with other countries outside. As the noble Lord knows, we are no longer part of the TRACES scheme, but we have access to the information we need to keep us safe.

With this statutory instrument, traders will continue to move their goods from the EU to Great Britain as they do now. Since 1 January last year, the UK has put in place strict biosecurity controls on the highest-risk imports of animals, animal products, plants and plant products from the EU. These controls will remain in place and we will still be able to respond to changes in biosecurity risk. If there is a delay to our rolling out of border control posts, there is no saving, as I think was hinted by someone. We have recruited people and are using them in an intelligent way to make sure that we are controlling the interim and will then build up the capacity of border control posts over the next 18 months to be fully functioning.

We are also able to use safeguarding measures to protect our biosecurity where we have particular concerns and evidence about pest or disease risk. Given that we have close alignment with and strong knowledge of the EU rules, we continue to have a high degree of confidence in biosecurity associated with those imports. We will have powers to check and seize non-compliant products and deal with any pest or disease risk identified.

I have spoken already about the animal disease policy group. I hope that has reassured noble Lords.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, asked whether measures like those in this instrument, which will remove parliamentary oversight by conferring additional powers on the Secretary of State, will be used only on the rarest of occasions. It is a very good question, and I hope I can reassure her. I am aware that the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee stated in its report that noble Lords may wish to obtain assurance from me that instruments such as this, which remove parliamentary scrutiny, will be introduced only on the rarest of occasions. This is a valid concern that I am more than happy to address. Noble Lords can rest assured that instruments such as this will be laid only in instances where they are absolutely necessary, as I hope they know.

In this case, as I outlined in my opening remarks, the shift from a legislative to an administrative procedure is vital to ensure that we can respond quickly and effectively to changes in risk in approved trading partners, thereby protecting animal and public health and supporting trade. The powers granted in this instrument will not, however, be used “on the rarest of occasions”. Indeed, it is precisely because regular changes need to be made to import conditions—lifting or imposing restrictions in response to constantly evolving levels of risk in approved trading partners—that the shift to an administrative process is so vital.

I am seeking inspiration on other questions that have been raised. The noble Baroness also raised points from Friends of the Earth in its submission on this. In our response, we made it clear that the expertise, capacity and processes required to exercise the powers in this instrument appropriately are well established within government and have already been used effectively to control a range of import risks since January 2022.

While the required risk-based and evidence-led decision-making processes are in place, there is currently no quick and effective mechanism for such decisions to be implemented in law for non-EU trading partners. In other words, we currently have the ability to arrive at informed decisions, based on appropriate assessments of risk, but we lack the ability to implement them quickly in law. This instrument is therefore needed to establish a process for ensuring that decisions can be rapidly implemented in law to protect biosecurity and the safety of this country.

The final point that the noble Baroness raised was why this has taken so long. We left the European Union at the end of 2019; why are we doing this now? We have been aware of the deficiencies in retained EU law and how, in practice, these deficiencies prevent us from amending country-specific import conditions sufficiently quickly. While recognising these deficiencies, Defra took the view that correcting them was not essential on day 1 of EU exit. As other pieces of legislation have been prioritised, including that which enables import conditions for EU and EFTA states to be managed administratively, it has not been possible to draft and present this instrument until now. The matter was brought forward by the case relating to Ukraine, which I quoted, which showed the necessity for this instrument. I hope that I have addressed the concerns of noble Lords. I beg to move.

Motion agreed.

Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill [HL]

Lord Teverson Excerpts

Report stage & Lords Hansard - part three
Monday 6th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Mallalieu (Lab)]

My Lords, Amendment 45 in my name is in this group. I have listened to crocodiles and in the next group we will get crabs and lobsters, so I will introduce the fish. If the Minister thinks it right to put crabs and lobsters in the Bill, he might consider my amendment.

There is a very significant body of scientific evidence that fish feel pain and are sentient animals. Individuals are capable of experiencing pain and feeling emotions such as fear. Under the Animal Welfare Act 2006, a fish may be a protected animal if it is under the control of man, but the Explanatory Notes on Section 59 read as follows:

“This section provides that anything which occurs in the normal course of fishing is not covered by this Act … The term ‘fishing’ should be understood as applying to ordinary activities of fishermen and anglers, and also the ordinary activities of those who own and run stocked ponds in allowing fishing activities to take place on their ponds.”


My amendment proposes that precisely the same provision be placed in this Act as was put in the Animal Welfare Act 2006. It would give reassurance to a great many people who enjoy fishing.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I echo the point of the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, about biosecurity. The implications of not taking care of biosecurity, which is mentioned in his amendment—I do not necessarily agree with all of the amendment—are fundamental; it is an ongoing threat to biodiversity and the ecological strength of this nation. I re-echo that point on biosecurity in terms of this Bill. As we know, at the moment we have few protections for biosecurity in our current arrangements, but, hopefully, that will change in the new year when there are greater controls on imports to this country. I just wanted to re-emphasise that point in the noble Earl’s amendment.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, for making that point, which is incredibly important, particularly to me, as someone who lives in Cumbria, where we have so many problems with tree diseases and are losing so many trees. It is pitiful watching some of the woods being taken down around places such as Ennerdale and Loweswater.

Coming back to Amendment 28 in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, he is right that we do need to look out for any unintended consequences of legislation. There are concerns that there may be an adverse impact on the environment. It is important that the Minister is able to reassure noble Lords that there will not be these outcomes from the Bill being enacted. This brings me back to the points we made earlier about how critical it is that the animal sentience committee has the right members who are highly qualified to advise the Secretary of State on these matters when any proposals are put forward.

Looking at Amendment 29, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, I say that it is not necessarily unfortunate to be stuck in Scotland at the moment; I might like to be joining him there. There was a debate on the Environment Bill about lead shot, and I will be interested to look at government progress on this.

The noble Earl, Lord Caithness, introduced Amendment 31 on electric dog training collars. These are opposed by the RSPCA, the Kennel Club, the Animal Behaviour and Training Council and the British Veterinary Association. I am aware that the Government have previously announced plans to look at banning shock collars on dogs, and on this side of the House we would support the Government if they wanted to go down that route.

The final amendment, Amendment 45, was introduced by my noble friend Lady Mallalieu. I thank her for it and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s responses to her concerns.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I am a bit perplexed by all this. The Government have decided to include lobsters and octopi—I prefer those terms because I understand them—but to exclude fish and, if they do not accept the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Trees, the minute creatures that they produce. It seems to me that we are on a slippery slope here: the sentience committee could come to the conclusion one day that fish have sentience and feel harm, and then we would ban them. Once you start down this road, there is no limit to where you can go in describing creatures as sentient. That troubles me enormously, and is why I am less than enthusiastic about my noble friend’s amendment.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, with this amendment we move on to Clause 5. It rather intrigues me, because it makes an exception of homo sapiens, and I wanted to ask the Minister whether that means that the Government see us as a non-sentient species. Perhaps he will answer that: if the answer is yes, I would probably agree, on track record. However, I will not detain the House. As my noble friend Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville would do, I want to thank the Government for this amendment and Amendment 43, which we very much support. I understand and greatly respect what the noble Lord, Lord Trees, said, but I am also aware that the recent scientific evidence on the mental facilities of species such as the octopus—how it is intelligent in a very different way from that in which mammals are intelligent—should be taken very seriously and included in the Bill.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

Noble Lords will not be surprised that I am absolutely delighted that the Government have tabled Amendment 39, which, as we have heard, has picked up the amendment I tabled in Committee and expands the definition of animals in the Bill to include decapod crustaceans and cephalopods.

It has also been good to hear support from some noble Lords, although I am sorry that it seems to have made the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, so sad. As the Minister said in his introduction, this amendment follows the London School of Economics and Political Science’s report, which concluded that there is strong scientific evidence that decapod crustaceans are sentient and can experience pain. I will not go into the detail of the report because the Minister has done that admirably, but I draw attention to the overarching central recommendation that all cephalopod molluscs and decapod crustaceans should be regarded as sentient animals for the purposes of UK animal welfare law; they should be counted as animals for the purposes of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 and should be included in the scope of any future legislation relating to animal sentience. To be honest, that could not be clearer. The LSE is a well-respected organisation.

The report also provides some helpful recommend-ations for improving best practice and welfare and for regulating existing commercial practices that are of reasonable and widespread animal welfare concern for decapod crustaceans. In addition, it is consistent with the approach other countries have taken, for example, Austria, Switzerland, Norway, New Zealand, some Australian states and territories and some German and Italian cities. Importantly, the report also includes recommendations about how industry can be supported through any necessary changes. Will the Minister confirm that marine industries and the food sector will have advice and help to manage any impact that a change in legislation would bring?

I want to say once again a big thank you to the Minister and the Government for taking this forward and proposing its inclusion in the Bill. I am sure he is very aware that he has the strong support of these Benches.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I beg to move Amendment 47. This is the last amendment to be debated and I call it the lifebelt amendment. Since 4 pm—with a couple of breaks in between, but nearly seven hours ago—the Government have heard of all the things that are possibly wrong with this Bill. There are problems with the terms of reference; problems with the setting up of the committee; and the abdication of power by the Government to the committee. My noble friend on the Front Bench has heard expert opinions from both the legal and the veterinary side about the difficulties that this Bill could pose. The zoologists are equally concerned that the terminology in the Bill is so wishy-washy that it will be very hard for some decisions to be made accurately.

I drafted this lifebelt amendment, which proposes to give the Government time for considered thought about the Bill. Yes, my noble friend has got his Bill; he has fulfilled his instructions from on high and defeated every amendment. But having got his Bill, would this not be a sensible time to set up a committee to look at the unintended consequences, of which so many have been raised, before the Bill is enacted? This would give the Government a chance to have a look again if they were persuaded, on the evidence of the committee, that the Bill ought to be redrafted in a different way. I totally applaud the sentiment behind the Bill. We want it, but we also want one that is right, so I offer my noble friend a lifebelt at the last moment. I beg to move.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, this seems quite novel as an amendment—to try, once a Bill has gone through Parliament and become an Act, to judge it afterwards. It is a novelty that I find perhaps rather difficult. I share the noble Earl’s thoughts about some of the issues around the Bill, but this is probably overly bureaucratic and, if we believe in Parliament, probably not the best way to move forward on this occasion—despite the great respect I have for him.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I agree; I too hold the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, in the greatest respect and the highest regard. Of course, he is absolutely right to say that any Government should consider seriously unintended consequences when considering any new legislation but, along with the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, I agree that this proposal is overly bureaucratic. Do we really need another committee? We seem to have an awful lot of them already. Expert advice will be readily available to the ASC, as we have heard, as well as to the Secretary of State.

I am very pleased that we have reached the end of Report and I congratulate the Minister on his resilience.

Fisheries Act 2020 (Scheme for Financial Assistance) (England) Regulations 2021

Lord Teverson Excerpts

Wednesday 21st July 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Teverson (LD) [V]]

My Lords, first, I very much welcome the Minister to his post; I have not been in a debate or Question Time with him since his appointment. I congratulate him on his work on highly protected marine areas, which I hope we will see progressed quickly through this Parliament.

I have a few brief questions for the Minister. First, can he confirm that this is just a one-year commitment at present? How long do the Government intend the scheme to last? On finance, the EMFF for England was £92 million over seven years, which comes to a round number of about £13 million per annum, whereas this scheme, as he said, provides only £6.1 million. I do not understand where the idea of equal funding, as before, comes from. I should be interested to understand that.

We are all used to the old European match-funding schemes, and I am interested to understand what the rules for this one will be. We should remember that the larger fisheries sector has been extremely profitable and does not necessarily need public money. That is not true of many of the smaller boats and operators. One of the good, well-tried parts of the old EMFF, as it was rolled out in England, was the so-called fisheries local action groups. They were a way to disburse money in relatively small amounts—and quickly, to come back to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes—to the smaller fishing operators and owners. I very much hope that that system will be replicated in distributing funds for this programme. It would be interesting to know the answer to that.

One thing I do not get at all is Regulation 12, which states:

“The Marine Management Organisation may, at any time before the grant has been paid in full, suspend or revoke the approval, or vary a condition of the approval.”

That seems completely unfair. If such a regulation were in consumer law, it would be struck out. It graciously then says that the MMO has to let the person know if it is going to do that—great, but they might already have spent money under the scheme, only to find that the MMO has decided to revoke approval. I do not understand why Regulation 12 is there and why it is so draconian. I would certainly be concerned about that if I were applying for funding.

I welcome the Minister’s constant referral to decarbonisation, but perhaps he could give us some examples from the fisheries and seafood scheme, which has been in operation since April last year under a different category. Can he give us one or two examples of decarbonisation awards, so we can understand a little more about what those applications might be?

Finally, I reiterate what others have said, not least the noble Baronesses, Lady McIntosh and Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, about remote electronic monitoring. I should be delighted if the Minister could nudge his department to support my amendment to the Environment Bill requiring that REM be applied, just to make sure that we get much more and better data and information about marine ecology.

EU: Fishing Industry Negotiations

Lord Teverson Excerpts

Thursday 4th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I would like the noble Baroness to let me have further details on this issue, which I will speak to the Fisheries Minister about, because we are having daily conversations with, for instance, the French embassy. I would like to hear more about the situation in North Shields; our task is to resolve these matters.

[Lord Teverson (LD) [V]]

My Lords, many parts of the industry are heading for bankruptcy, yet within the agreement we have the mechanism of a Specialised Committee on Fisheries, which has not yet met. The Minister, Victoria Prentis, recently said:

“Details on how the committee will function will be communicated once they are finalised.”


This is not good enough. Surely, the Government need to pull their finger out. In this third month of Brexit, when is this specialised committee actually going to meet?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con) [V]]

My Lords, until the TCA has been ratified in the European Parliament, the Partnership Council and its specialised committees will not start to function. We in the UK are ready for them to be operational and are making our plans.

UK Shellfish Sector

Lord Teverson Excerpts

Wednesday 10th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con) [V]]

My Lords, of course I shall seek to answer the noble Baroness’s question. The £23 million fund for financial assistance announced today is for those businesses that suffered a financial loss because of

“delays related to the export of fresh or live fish and shellfish to the EU during January”.

With our dialogue with the Commission, we seek to resume this valued trade from class B waters, which we think is completely justified under the law. What is more, many EU businesses have invested in depuration facilities, and that is what they wish.

[Lord Teverson (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the Minister will be very aware of the damage that has been done to various aspects of the fishing industry by the trade and co-operation agreement and the lack of other agreements. It is very important that the Government get their own view over in this case, so would the Minister or one of his colleagues come down to Cornwall with the noble Lord, Lord Frost, who negotiated the deal, to explain all these issues face to face with the industry itself?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con) [V]]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, and this gives me an opportunity to mention the very regular dialogue that there is between Defra and stakeholders that work with the exporters—the UK Seafood Exports Working Group, for instance. Of course I will take back to the Fisheries Minister the point about meeting Cornish fishing interest groups, and I am sure that they will be part of the discussions that we need to have to work towards resolution of some of these matters.

EU Trade and Co-operation Agreement: Fishing Industry

Lord Teverson Excerpts

Tuesday 19th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con) [V]]

My Lords, the Prime Minister announced that £23 million of funding is being made available to support the seafood sector. It will support those parts of the sector that have suffered genuine loss, through no fault of their own, as a result of disruption and delays of seafood exports to Europe. Details will follow shortly. I would say to the noble Baroness that I think there is an uplift in quota for UK fishers equivalent to 25% of the total value taken by EU vessels from UK waters over the five-and-a-half-year period, and 15% of that uplift is in the first year, so I do not identify with her view. What we want to do is work with all parties to ensure there is a smooth passage for this very important sector, and that is what we are doing, with very regular communication and meetings.

[Lord Teverson (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I note that the one area where Brexit could have been a real success, and important to one of our important industrial sectors, has been a complete failure in its negotiation. I have two very brief questions for the Minister. First, is it true that EU fleets will continue to have unfettered access to our EEZ to fish species for which there is no quota? Secondly, given the urgency and the crisis there is at the moment for the fishing industry and its exports, have the Government called a meeting of the specialised committee on fisheries with the EU? Has it already done that to resolve these issues urgently?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con) [V]]

My Lords, on the specialised committee on fisheries, those matters are being worked through and there will be an update on that in due course. What I would I say to the noble Lord is that we have been working with industry and also, particularly, with Dutch, French and Irish officials to resolves issues with documentation, which is the key point. On the issue of the trade agreement, I disagree with him. With a 25% uplift in quota, what we want to do is to work with industry, and that is why we have said there is this £100 million fund programme to modernise fleets and the fish processing industry, precisely because we think there is a great future for UK fishing.

Environmental Land Management Schemes

Lord Teverson Excerpts

Monday 14th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)]

My Lords, I can confirm to the noble Baroness that, while clearly we need to safeguard public money, we also think that the bureaucracy involved in the CAP was not proportionate. We want to work collaboratively with farmers but, clearly, we also want to ensure that there is delivery of the environmental benefits that will and must be engaged by these schemes.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, in a very helpful reply to me on a recent Written Question on ELMS and advisory services, the Minister said that the Government would set up an institute for agriculture and horticulture. I welcome that, but will they locate that institute in Cornwall, which is such an excellent example of horticulture and farming?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)]

My Lords, I will take that back to the Secretary of State.

Plant Health (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Lord Teverson Excerpts

Monday 7th December 2020 Grand Committee

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as chair of the Cornwall and Isles of Scilly Local Nature Partnership, which is obviously very concerned about biosecurity. I commend the Minister for his work on biosecurity. I know he champions it in government, which is very much to be recognised. I was also going to congratulate the officials who put all this together, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes. If I suffer from insomnia later this week I shall reach for it next to my bed, I assure you.

This is a really serious subject because we know that lapses in biosecurity can cost us a huge amount of money. On the animal side, we still think back to foot and mouth, which cost some £8 billion or £9 billion. In the case of plants, lapses can have a major impact on biodiversity. This is a really important area.

I will bring up a few points with the Minister. First, “passport” sounds impressive, but is nothing at all like the passport we have at the moment while we are part of the single market, which allows us to transfer products within 28 nation states with security. This will allow plant materials to go between the devolved nations, but that is about it.

I will follow up on the important point that the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, raised about IT systems. I would like to understand whether those systems are ready, whether they have been trialled and whether we are certain that they will work. I am not sure whether this is supposed to happen on 1 January or in July, but perhaps the Minister could reassure us on that.

Within the European Union we have the TRACES system, which I expect the Prime Minister might describe as world beating. It is a very serious system. I wonder whether there are plans to have some connection with TRACES in future—as long as negotiations are successful in the coming weeks, as we all hope they will be. There is real information and data in that system that would be of use to us, and I am sure that our data would still be of use to the EU for the point of increasing both sides’ biosecurity.

One of the most important areas is preventing these diseases getting to the border in the first place. Under the present system, the Commission has a number of officials worldwide who check out producers and growers before products are shipped or processed. We will no longer have access to those individuals and their recommendations, checking and audit. I would be interested to understand from the Minister where we are on replacing that capability. In some ways, preventing these risks at source is even more fundamental than stopping them at the border.

I understand the concept of risk-based enforcement and I welcome it in all sorts of ways. It is a most efficient way to do it, but I warn the Minister that I have too often seen “risk-based” being a euphemism for “budget cut”. I would like reassurance on where we are on personnel at the border, let alone out there in the rest of the world, to make sure that this system works.

Lastly, I ask the Minister to reassure us that we will not have an open gate for six months, where one gets the impression that anything goes. Although I understand entirely that most products come through the European Union, so it will be no riskier on 1 January then it will be on 31 December, I am aware that there tends to be a regulatory arbitrage among people who want to move on substandard product. I wonder whether less scrupulous people in this trade outside our national frontiers might try to use this open door policy to find a way to sell substandard product. That would be a risk.

Common Fisheries Policy (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Lord Teverson Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd December 2020 Grand Committee

[Lord Teverson (LD) [V]]

My Lords, it is a regular occurrence that I follow the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh. Her knowledge of this area is absolutely excellent. I thank the Minister and his officials for having offered to meet before this session; regrettably, I could not do so because of other parliamentary business.

One of the general points to make first, coming back to what the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, was saying, is that we are only 29 days away from the common fisheries policy regime and all the regulations around it ending. I realise that most of those will continue, but one of the great occasions of Brussels was the Fisheries Ministers’ bun-fight before Christmas, when they all sorted out TACs and quotas, and did deals around the scientific evidence. We have got better in recent years at recognising the scientific evidence. I do not understand what quotas UK fishers will be operating to from 1 January. The fishing industry does not cease operating for a new year, so I would be interested to hear from the Minister exactly what the rules will be for quotas by species and how they will be distributed. This is an immediate problem.

I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, is not correct about the landing obligation and discards ban. I understand that the Government will keep to their undertaking. The first of these regulations changes the demersal discard plans slightly in terms of some of the exemptions, but I would be very concerned if the discard ban did not continue. The Government have very much promoted it within the European Union and the common fisheries policy, through correct pressure from the public, and I hope that it will continue. I will come back to the discard ban in a while.

The sub-committee that I chair has always been pleased to hear that the Government intend to continue their relationship with the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea. This is an important body and it would make no sense for us to operate a separate system from those that fish in the same waters and fish the same stocks as we do. I welcome that, but I look forward to the clarifications on detail that the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, asked of the Minister.

I entirely understand why the Government will remove references to the European Union Scientific, Technical and Economic Committee for Fisheries from the legislation, as we are clearly out of the common fisheries policy now. But I would be interested to understand in more detail from the Minister how or if that is likely to be replaced. Does ICES give enough information and scientific advice for decisions to be made? I suspect that it does not. I would be concerned if Cefas, which the Minister mentioned, took on this role because, although I greatly admire the work that Cefas does, it is not an independent body; it is part of the Defra family. Therefore, like all Defra bodies and other public bodies, it is financed directly by a department and is not necessarily completely independent in its views.

Although I understand that the Government must, rightly, come out of that organisation, I would be very concerned if we did not still swap data on a voluntary basis. Not to do so would seem to show a rather dog-in-the-manger attitude. So I ask the Minister whether he and his officials will open a dialogue, so that we can still share that scientific debate and information, as many of the fish discussed by that committee are shared stocks. We would hope to have a reciprocal basis as well. It would be a great shame if that relationship did not continue, at least on an informal and voluntary basis. Needless to say, if you want to solve the data issue, remote electronic monitoring is the way to do it. Data is one of the key pluses of that technology.

I move back now to the landing obligation. There is some change to the demersal regulations or exemptions in terms of the ban. Apart from the Government’s commitment to this, which I hope the Minister will confirm, I ask whether it is working at all. In the two reports that my committee did, we found that it had made very little difference to either the EU 27 members—and certainly those in the littoral states of the North Sea and the Channel—or the United Kingdom. I would be interested to hear from the Minister whether the department feels that the landing obligation and discards ban has made any difference yet to the working practices of the industry.

I very much welcome the Government’s call for evidence on remote electronic monitoring. That call ended at the beginning of this month. Perhaps the Minister could tell us how many people or organisations submitted evidence to it and when he anticipates the next consultation on REM will start.

One of the things that will happen with single market rules, with us coming out of the common fisheries policy—although we have built a framework in the Fisheries Act—is that we can have divergence between the nations of the United Kingdom. I would be interested in how quickly the Minister feels there will be divergence and how it will be treated or worked around by the Government and the devolved authorities.

I welcome how the Government have, on a number of occasions, reconfirmed to the committee that they will operate a similar scheme to the EMFF, but when will it start? It is very important to the industry. The EMFF is not a large fund—it is small in comparison with many other EU structural funds—but it is well targeted and focused on making a difference, particularly to smaller fishing communities and fleets. So when will that fund be up and running?

Lastly, I admit that I find Northern Ireland fisheries incredibly difficult to understand, but I would like to understand from the Minister whether, when a Northern Ireland fishing vessel lands in the Republic of Ireland or back in Great Britain, its catch is treated as a UK or an EU catch. What are the implications of that for any future tariffs, quotas or phytosanitary regulations? Those questions take me through everything I need to say.