Social Care Funding (EAC Report)
Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts(3 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con) [V]
My Lords, I refer to my interests as set out in the register. However, I have a personal interest in the subject of the report, as, way back in 1987, an announcement was made by the then South Lincolnshire Health Authority that it was to close Holbeach Hospital. I was active in the local community and the area generally and perceived this to be a considerable threat. The hospital provided general bed care; there were consulting rooms for out-patient clinics and a physiotherapy department. It worked with local GPs and hospital doctors to provide the substantial rural community with health and social care. To cut a long story short, with local support, we negotiated a takeover of the premises by forming a local charitable trust, which then raised the money needed to improve the building up to registration standard at nursing home level and entered into a contract with Lincolnshire County Council for the funding of 22 beds. An agreement was reached with the health authority to continue with six doctors’ beds, the out-patient clinics and the physiotherapy department. We reopened in 1989.
I chaired the Holbeach and East Elloe Hospital Trust for 18 years. When I came to your Lordships’ House, I became its patron. The trust has thrived and maintains support locally. As a result of income generated and bequests, we soon purchased the freehold and doubled the number of beds to 47, including 12 re-enablement beds under the doctors’ supervision.
I congratulate my noble friend Lord Forsyth of Drumlean on chairing the committee and producing such a full report. Reforming the sector will be one of the most challenging undertakings for our Government. With such a complex system, it is important to look at all the options on the table. Notwithstanding the challenges, putting social care on a sustainable footing, where everybody is treated with dignity and respect, is imperative.
It is not as though we need a reminder, for the past year has shown just how vital this sector is for people who rely on social care. I welcome the Government’s recognition of the challenge that this sector faces during the pandemic by providing £1.1 billion of ring-fenced funding, which is vital to help put measures in place to improve infection prevention. How much funding have the Government made available for the costs associated with increased testing in care homes?
I want also to focus on the quality of care received by those who rely on adult social care. Despite increasing challenges, it is important that we recognise that the sector continues to provide high-quality care and support. I was encouraged to read that 85% of adult social care providers are currently rated good or outstanding by the Care Quality Commission. I think that the Committee will welcome this figure and want to pay tribute to the care givers, who are doing such a fine job, as many noble Lords have said, during such difficult circumstances.
All social policy areas have been put under pressure as a result of the pandemic, for they are interrelated. Social care, healthcare, pensions policy, the benefits system and even education all play a part in a civilised approach to need, even in the best of times. We need a consensus—
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
My Lords, I remind the noble Lord that there is a four-minute speaking limit for this debate.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con) [V]
I hope that the report and the purpose of our debate on it will give the Government confidence that they can take Parliament with them in tackling this great issue.
Education (Student Fees, Awards and Support)(Amendment) Regulations 2017
Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts(7 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)
My Lords, I think it best if we adjourn during pleasure until 5.15 pm, to enable the Chamber to be adjusted for the ceremony that now follows.
Abortion (Disability Equality) Bill [HL]
Lord Taylor of Holbeach ExcerptsFriday 24th February 2017
(7 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Abortion (Disability Equality) Bill [HL] 2016-17 View all Abortion (Disability Equality) Bill [HL] 2016-17 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 95-I Marshalled list for Report (PDF, 64KB) - (22 Feb 2017)
Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)
My Lords, it is the custom of the House on Fridays to finish at 3 pm and we are very nearly at that time. I do not think that we will do any debate justice by starting another amendment at this stage. I hope that noble Lords will understand if I now move that the House do now adjourn.
Human Fertilisation and Embryology (Mitochondrial Donation) Regulations 2015
Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts(9 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)
My Lords, it is a rule of this House that only one person speaks at one time. I ask noble Lords to be seated, please. We are in some difficulty. A number of noble Lords still want to speak. I understand that; this is a serious matter. Perhaps I might suggest to them that they will attract the approval of the House if they keep their remarks brief. Most noble Lords have come here with contributions to make, and they are speaking from extensive notes. It would help us all if we could move this debate to a conclusion; many noble Lords have indicated that to me. Therefore, while I do not for a moment suggest that we move to that stage now, I ask noble Lords to be orderly in allowing others to speak and to be brief.
Tobacco: Packaging
Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts(10 years, 7 months ago)
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Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
My Lords, I note that we are about to have a Statement but we do not have a Minister. May I encourage the noble Lord to move that the House do adjourn during pleasure for five minutes for the Front Bench to get itself a Minister?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con)
This is a just-in-time delivery, if I may say so.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House I shall now repeat a Statement made earlier today by my honourable friend the Minister for Public Health in another place on standardised packaging of tobacco products. The Statement is as follows:
“With permission, Mr Speaker, I wish to make a Statement about the publication of Sir Cyril Chantler’s report on the standardised packaging of tobacco products.
Smoking kills nearly 80,000 people each year in England alone. One out of two long-term smokers will die of a smoking-related disease and our cancer outcomes stubbornly lag behind much of Europe. Quite apart from the enormous pressure this creates on the NHS it is a cruel waste of human potential. Yet we all know that the vast majority of smokers want to quit and, even more tragically, we also know that two-thirds of smokers become addicted before they are 18. As a nation, therefore, we should consider every effective measure we can to stop children taking up smoking in the first place.
That is why, in November last year, I asked Sir Cyril Chantler to undertake an independent review as to whether or not the introduction of standardised packaging of tobacco is likely to have an effect on public health, in particular in relation to children. Sir Cyril has presented his report to me and to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, and we had the benefit of a personal briefing from Sir Cyril yesterday, in which he highlighted the key conclusions of his review.
Having reviewed Sir Cyril’s findings, I was keen to share this important report with the House without delay, as I recognise the significant interest that many Members have shown in this issue. I will of course place copies in both House Libraries. The evidence has been examined, the arguments for and against have been thoroughly explored and their merit assessed by Sir Cyril, who also visited Australia in the course of his review. I asked in particular that the report focus on the potential for standardised packaging to have an impact on the health of children.
It is clear that smoking is a disease of adolescence and we know that, across the UK, more than 200,000 children aged between 11 and 15 start smoking every year. In other words, around 600 children start smoking in the UK every day. Many of these children will grow up with a nicotine addiction that they will find extremely difficult to break. That is a tragedy for these young people, their families and for the public health of our nation. Sir Cyril points out that if this rate of smoking by children were reduced even by 2%, for example, it would mean that 4,000 fewer children take up smoking each year.
Sir Cyril’s report makes a compelling case that, if standardised packaging were introduced, it would be very likely to have a positive impact on public health and that these health benefits would include health benefits for children. The Chief Medical Officer, Dame Sally Davies, has read Sir Cyril’s report and sent me a letter with her initial views. Dame Sally said:
‘The Chantler review only reinforces my beliefs of the public health gains to be achieved from standardised packaging’.
I have placed copies of Dame Sally’s letter in the House Libraries. Importantly, the report highlights that any such policy must be seen in the round, as part of a comprehensive policy of tobacco control measures. That is exactly how I see the potential for standardised packaging to work in this country.
In the light of this report and the responses to the previous consultation in 2012, I am therefore currently minded to proceed with introducing regulations to provide for standardised packaging. However, in order to ensure that that decision is properly and fully informed, I intend to publish the draft regulations, so that it is crystal clear what is intended, alongside a final, short consultation, in which I will ask, in particular, for views on anything new since the last full public consultation that is relevant to the final decision on this policy. I will announce the details about the content and timing of that very shortly but would invite those with an interest to start considering any responses they might wish to make now. The House will understand that I want to move forward as swiftly as possible, and Parliament gave us the regulation-making powers in the Act.
Finally, I should like to pay tribute to the excellent job that Sir Cyril and his team have done in preparing such a thorough analysis of the available evidence on standardised packaging of tobacco products. I believe the report will be widely acknowledged both for its forensic approach and its authoritative conclusions. We want our nation’s children to grow up happy and healthy and free from the heavy burden of disease that tobacco brings. I commend this Statement and Sir Cyril’s report to the House”.
That concludes the Statement.
Public Bodies Bill [HL]
Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts(13 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Pannick
My Lords, I have added my name to Amendment 1. As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, said, at Report your Lordships rejected an amendment in the name of the noble Lord which would have required public consultation in all cases covered by Clause 10. Your Lordships rejected the amendment because the Minister argued that it cannot be appropriate and proportionate for a full public consultation to be undertaken on the implementation of all exercises of power under the Bill, however limited they may be. However, he also said:
“The Government support the principle behind this amendment, which is to ensure that the public are given an opportunity to make their views heard on the reform of public bodies.—[Official Report, 4/4/11; col. 1555.]
Amendment 1 would achieve that objective. It would ensure that the public were able to inform themselves of all proposals for change and were able to contribute to the debate if they wished. The amendment would therefore promote accountability, and it would do so at no cost or inconvenience to the Government.
The Minister may say that the amendment is unnecessary as this is so obviously sensible as a practice that the Government would do it in any event. However, a ministerial assurance given, I accept, in good faith cannot bind Ministers in this or any future Government. Even after the very welcome amendments that have been made to the legislation in this House, the Bill will still confer very extensive powers on Ministers over public bodies, and it is therefore important to make clear in the Bill the essential obligation contained in this amendment.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Pannick, for bringing back these issues because it gives me the opportunity to clarify the Government’s position. As they say, Amendments 1 and 6 revisit the issue of consultation and so I shall respond to them together.
Amendment 1, to which the noble Lords, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Pannick, have spoken, would require Ministers to publish the proposed reform on their department’s website or to otherwise make it publicly available in the event that a full public consultation was not to be undertaken. This is a helpful amendment and one that speaks to an important principle, so I thank noble Lords for bringing it back at Third Reading.
I said on Report that I thought that this was something that the Government could consider, and I can assure your Lordships’ House that we have done so. Supportive as we are of the objective behind this amendment, on balance, we do not believe that such a requirement is appropriate on the face of the Bill. We are debating ostensibly an issue of guidance and best practice, not imposing a legal requirement. For that reason I am able to support the purpose of the amendment but not its inclusion in the Bill. Given that I believe that this is an issue of guidance, I am happy to give a very specific assurance that the guidance for use by officials on making orders under the Public Bodies Bill, to be published by the Cabinet Office, will include a specific reference that departments ought to consider the most appropriate way of making a proposal publicly available.
The Government are committed to increasing transparency and accountability across the public sector. I do not believe that I can honestly stand here and say that I oppose the purpose of the amendment and still be true to that overall objective. I fear that our only point of divergence is on how to ensure that this purpose is reflected in the best way possible when Ministers are developing proposals and drafting orders. It is the Government’s clear judgment that a more practical and proportionate way of achieving the noble Lord’s objective is to capture this issue in the guidance which will be used by departments when bringing forward orders. On Report, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, described my pledge to take this back to my colleagues in government as “handsome”. I hope that he will not now consider this an ugly conclusion by the Government. I can assure him that the principle of making proposals publicly available is one on which all sides of the House agree.
I should like to make one further observation on the noble Lord’s amendment. I agree that, in 2011, a website represents a very sensible vehicle for making proposals publicly available; indeed, I should expect departments seriously to consider whether website publication is not appropriate for publicising their proposals. However, my crystal ball will not tell me whether this will be the case for ever. Technology moves on. The statutory framework for consultation on this legislation is set out in Clause 10, and it is intended to be a stable and firm statutory requirement for reforms long into the future. It is guidance, not the statue book, that can be readily updated to reflect whatever is most appropriate at given times. That provides further weight to the argument that, however sensible this amendment might seem, it is not an appropriate addition to the Bill.
I am disappointed that I cannot be more supportive of the noble Lord’s amendment. I know that it is a sincere attempt to improve the Bill and to help the Government deliver a comprehensive and watertight piece of legislation. However, the vote on Report made it clear that consultation must not always be full public consultation and that a Minister must ultimately be responsible and indeed accountable to Parliament for deciding how to undertake proportionate and meaningful consultation. It is therefore not appropriate to seek to alter this legal framework through the noble Lord’s amendment.
I shall now turn to Amendment 6 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. This proposed amendment to Schedule 1 in practice concerns the issues of consultation and subsequent procedure, set out in Clauses 10 and 11, and how they might apply to the closure of the regional development agencies. I shall start by once again taking the opportunity to pay tribute to the work of the RDAs. I also acknowledge that the noble Lords have a strong regard for the work that the RDAs did and would prefer them to continue.
We have had very thorough debates in the House, in Committee and on Report, on the RDAs. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, referred to these debates. I have explained that the Government's strong preference is to abolish the RDAs, and I have set out the reasons behind this, including why the current arrangements are no longer sustainable. The coalition agreement, the June 2010 Budget Statement and the local growth White Paper are equally clear about the Government's proposal to abolish the RDAs. The Government continue actively to engage with RDAs and interested parties on how closure is to be achieved. Individual RDAs have been in touch with their stakeholders, for example about their asset plans. The consultation and engagement are taking place irrespective of the requirements in the Bill.
I have listened to the arguments for the reform of public bodies to be an open process. Clauses 10 and 11 underline the Government’s desire for this to be the case. Clause 10 requires a Minister to consult on a proposal to which an order made using the Bill would give effect. The amendment proposes that in the case of RDAs, the explanatory document that accompanies an order should include, first, the question that was asked about the principle of abolishing RDAs and, secondly, a summary of the representations received on that question.
The requirements of Clause 10 on a Minister to consult when making an order covered by the Bill are clear. The requirements applied to the RDAs would oblige the Government to ask about the principle of abolition. Similarly, Clause 11(2)(d) requires that any explanatory document should include a summary of representations received in consultation. Therefore, I do not believe that the amendments in this group would provide any additional information for Parliament. Instead, they would unnecessarily complicate the drafting of the Bill. I hope that, in the light of the clarification that I have given with regard to the existing requirements—
Lord Beecham
My Lords, does the Minister recall that on Report, I asked about the consultation process for RDAs in the light of a letter that the Minister had written to my noble friend Lady Royall, in which he stated that consultation effectively would take place after the passage of the legislation? I asked on that occasion whether in those circumstances the consultation that took place with individual RDAs would be on the basis that each case would be considered on its merits, or whether in effect it was all or nothing in terms of abolition. Will there be an individual consultation in respect of each RDA, with the possibility of a different conclusion in respect of one RDA as opposed to another, or is it to be abolition tout court?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
The consultation will be based on the statutory instruments that will be tabled in connection with each RDA. Therefore, there will indeed be consultation, and an opportunity for each regional development agency to have input on its future. The regions of the country, if they feel particularly motivated, will be able to discuss the reasons why they believe no change should be made to their status.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
It is the nature of consultation that the Government are open to persuasion: that is the purpose of a consultative exercise. The policy decision has been made. It is the resolve of the Government to implement the policy. None the less, there will be a consultative process, at which there will be an opportunity to argue the opposite case.
I hope that, in the light of the clarification that I have given on the requirements of Clauses 10 and 11, the noble Baroness and the noble Lord will not press their amendments. I also hope that, given my assurances on guidance and the problems with adding Amendment 1 to the Bill, the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, in moving Amendment 2, which will put a time limit on the bodies mentioned in Schedules 1 to 5, I will not rehearse the well honed arguments which have been put forward many times about the importance of sunsetting. Suffice it to say that the sunsetting of the schedules is one of the fundamental and welcome changes which have been made to this Bill. I am very grateful to the Minister for putting his name to this amendment, which appears for a second time because, I have to confess, I failed to move it on Report. I beg to move.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, I am delighted to have added my name to Amendment 2, which is also tabled in the names of the noble Baroness, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth. As the noble Baroness has said, perhaps she failed to move the amendment on Report, but then so did I. I think we were all caught up in the heat of the moment after a Division, so I am pleased that we have an opportunity to bring it back again. It is the outcome of a constructive engagement across the House and I thank noble Lords for their input into the process and for retabling the amendment to ensure that it becomes part of the Bill.
Grouped with Amendment 2 are three government amendments to clauses relating Welsh Ministers. They are essentially minor and technical in nature and have been requested by the Welsh Assembly Government. Amendment 3 clarifies that Clause 13(6) refers to internal drainage boards which have responsibility for geographic areas partially but not wholly within Wales. National boundaries do not necessarily follow catchment areas. Amendment 4 is a drafting amendment to ensure that the procedure for transfer schemes made by Welsh Ministers under Clause 23 applies to transfer schemes set up in connection with orders made under Clause 13. Amendment 10 alters the Long Title to reflect the fact that the Bill as amended on Report grants powers to Welsh Ministers in Clause 13 in relation to a number of other bodies and offices in addition to those powers that already exist in relation to environmental bodies specified in, and by virtue of, Clause 12. These amendments rightly clarify the Government’s intentions for the use of powers in the Bill and I trust that they will be welcomed by the House.
Baroness Turner of Camden
My Lords, I rise to support my noble friend on this amendment and thank him very much for introducing it. As he rightly says, there is a great deal of uncertainty among public sector workers at the moment. Of course, there is a bit of a campaign about the public sector, as far as I can see, on the part of certain sections of the press, designed to give the impression that public sector workers are so much better off than people in the private sector. If you look at it very carefully, that really is not the case. On the other hand, it all adds to the sense of insecurity that many public sector workers feel. Therefore, it is essential that there should be something in this Bill that makes it clear that when people are transferred they have the protection afforded by the TUPE regulations.
Not to give that sort of protection would be to give the public sector workers, who provide the services that we all rely on, the sense that they are disposable. Our workers are not disposable and must be protected in the way suggested in the TUPE regulations. I therefore hope that the Government this time round feel that they have to support this amendment and that it eventually appears on the face of the Bill.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity of coming back on the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. I am sorry if my prose failed to clarify the situation as well as it might, and I hope that my words and the speech prepared for me provide the clarification that the noble Lord seeks. He used the phrase, “words to that effect”. Let us hope that these words that I am about to deliver are to good effect.
The amendment gives me, as the Minister taking this Bill through the House, an opportunity to say that the Government recognise the valuable contribution made by their staff. We want to be, and feel that we are, a good employer, and staff in public bodies are important for good governance. We are keen to support all those affected by change and are committed to TUPE and COSoP as they currently apply. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, agreed that extending TUPE is not necessarily the best option for all staff, which is what makes this particular matter more complex than it might otherwise be.
The amendment would require that TUPE regulations apply to any transfer of functions or activities that take place as a result of an order made under the Public Bodies Bill. As I did in Committee, I would like to inform the House why the Government believe that existing protection for staff is sufficient and why it would be inappropriate to accept the suggested amendment.
The purpose of TUPE and the European law that underpins it is to protect staff in circumstances where the business that they work for or services to which they are assigned are to be carried out by a different organisation. TUPE ensures that the staff retain their jobs and conditions with new employers stepping into the shoes of the old. When a change falls within the TUPE definition of “relevant transfer”, TUPE will apply and the staff will be protected. The definition is broad and many changes brought about by the Bill will be covered. However, there may be circumstances where it is uncertain whether TUPE applies or is excluded.
Clause 23 gives the Government the power to provide protection to staff in circumstances where TUPE is not engaged. This is underpinned by the Cabinet Office statement of practice on staff transfers—referred to as COSoP—which provides that, even where TUPE does not apply to public sector transfers, organisations will be expected to apply TUPE’s principles as a matter of policy. I assure the noble Lord that the Government remain committed to COSoP. In practice, such transfers are effected through legislation which closely follows the provisions in TUPE, including the continuity provisions.
Legislative transfer schemes which are used to effect transfers in non-TUPE situations do not always apply TUPE to the letter. For example, some schemes permit greater flexibility in relation to post-transfer contractual variations. This can assist the process of harmonising disparate reward packages, thus reducing the risk of unlawful discrimination, particularly on equal pay claims, and avoiding unnecessary barriers to reform. Where the change does not fall within the definition of “relevant transfer” because the new organisation will be carrying out a function or activity which differs in nature from the old, it would not be appropriate to grant TUPE protection; the reality there is that there is no transfer of employees’ functions—the staff are redundant and should be dismissed and paid the compensation to which they are entitled. I assure your Lordships that, if there is legal uncertainty on whether a function is to be continued, Clause 23 gives scope for TUPE protection to be provided.
It would be inappropriate to accept the amendment because, in the Government's view, the blanket application of TUPE to all those transfers which are effected pursuant to the Bill is not appropriate and could lead to inefficiencies and unintended consequences. The Bill provides a framework for a wide variety of reforms to public bodies. Given this, it is crucial that those involved in transfers taking place under the Bill retain the flexibility to respond to each situation according to the facts. It is necessary to form a judgment in each case about whether the particular facts fall within the TUPE definition of “relevant transfer” and, if not, whether a transfer scheme which follows TUPE principles is appropriate. Staff could otherwise be compelled to move and, perhaps, relocate—even where their work is not going to be continued—and all those involved in the transfer could find themselves subject to restrictions which are not helpful nor apposite to the situation.
I appreciate the contribution made by the noble Baroness, Lady Turner of Camden, and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for again bringing this to the attention of the House. I assure them both that I am quite happy to write to them again and will keep them posted on developments under the legislation, if they wish. In respect of Cabinet Office advice in this area, I am perfectly happy to keep all noble Lords informed on this matter. However, in the light of the assurances that I have given, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend Lady Turner for her points underlining the issue of uncertainty that surrounds so many employees in these organisations and beyond at the moment. I am also grateful to the Minister for stating pretty clearly the Government’s commitment to the TUPE principles and to continuing to apply COSOP where that is the relevant coverage. I was slightly more dubious about the last two or three paragraphs. There is a slightly schizophrenic nature to the Minister's response. I do not know whether two people drafted his speech for him, as he carefully said at the beginning. On the one hand, there is that very clear commitment, which I appreciate. It is an important message for the Government to get out there. There were then references to flexibility in situations which hitherto may well have been regarded as transfers. I accept that some fine-tuning of TUPE is necessary and helpful, provided that that is done individually or collectively with the employees concerned.
The situation where neither TUPE nor COSOP applies probably requires one-off handling. However, if the principle is that the main principles of TUPE will be held to apply unless there is a good reason why they should not, I would rather have heard a speech from the Minister in those terms—that the default position is that TUPE should apply. However, clearly I am not going to get a lot more from the Government on this one; I think that I have done quite well over the previous stages of the Bill. I suspect that there will be some work for our learned friends in some of these areas, and I hope that the good will extended by the Minister at the beginning of his speech and the commitment to the TUPE principles that he reflected here will in practice be reflected in the proposals for the individual organisations and the approach that the individual departments take when we are drawing up the regulations to implement these parts of the Bill.
I thank the Minister. I am not entirely satisfied, and I suspect that some people outside will not be either, but I will not press this today. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill do now pass. In doing so, I crave the indulgence of the House to say a few words. Today is 9 May, and we had Second Reading of this Bill on 9 November. For six calendar months, this House has been considering the Bill. The Bill has been much changed by this House; I think we all share the view that the Bill has been improved by this House. This House can be proud of its role of scrutiny, which it has demonstrated in scrutinising the Bill and improving it. It can serve as a textbook example of how this House serves that great and fundamental purpose.
I say a word of thanks to Members of this House for that role. In particular, I thank those on the opposition Front Bench for the constructive way in which we have been able to talk about the Bill from the beginning. They had firm ideas of what they wanted to happen to the Bill; we had ours; but the discussions were always friendly and open. I am very grateful to them. I am very grateful to all Peers who have attended our meetings: those from the Cross Benches, in particular, for their construction of ideas and resolution of some of the impasses which looked difficult to overcome; and to coalition Peers for their support and input. Right to the end, we have been discussing these matters, and the House has been divided on them, but there has been a real sense of partnership on the Bill. That has been particularly true of my Front Bench colleagues who have shared the passage of the Bill with me and have taken particular amendments. I have been reluctant to comment on individual involvement, but I feel that I should thank my noble friend Lady Rawlings, who is my Whip on the Bill and who has been with me more or less throughout its passage.
I conclude by thanking the Bill team, because they have had to work particularly hard not just within the Cabinet Office, which originated the Bill, but across all government departments, because every government department has been engaged in the Bill. I thank them for the way in which we have enjoyed working on the Bill together. They now go to see it through another place, and their job continues. I also mention the Bill team manager, as was, Louise Parry, who during the Easter Recess had a baby daughter. Cecilia is perhaps the most visible token of the Bill's passage through this House, and we are delighted for both of them. They are both very well and I thank Louise for her support to me and to her colleagues during the passage of the Bill.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I must say that when we completed the passage of the Marine and Coastal Access Bill, which also took about six months, I never thought that I would be facing the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, on another Bill which took so long. I echo his comments: I think that the Bill is much changed; it has benefited from scrutiny in your Lordships' House. I am sure that the whole House would wish to thank the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, for his stewardship of the Bill. He has shown great skill and sensitivity to the issues that have been raised. All of us are grateful for the manner in which he has met us to discuss the issues, but his responses in your Lordships’ Chamber have also been in a flavour of seeking a way through. We are very grateful to him.
There has been a cast of thousands on either side of the opposition and government Front Benches. I, too, very much thank my colleagues for their help. I echo the noble Lord’s words of thanks to the Bill team. We are very grateful to them for the help that they have given us over the months. I, too, congratulate the Bill team manager on the birth of her daughter during Easter.
The Bill goes to the other place much enhanced. Because of the sunset clause, although the Bill will deal with a number of public bodies, when that is done, there will be a mechanism for looking at public bodies in future in a way that noble Lords find a very satisfactory outcome.
Public Bodies Bill [HL]
Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts(13 years, 7 months ago)
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“Keeper of Public Records.”
“Public Records Office.”
“( ) An order under sections 1 to 5 may include provision repealing the entry in the Schedule by virtue of which the order was made.”
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, even at this late hour, it gives me great pleasure to introduce this group of amendments, each of which introduces important changes to the schedules. I hope that they will be welcomed on all sides of the House.
Amendment 60 would create a power for a Minister, when making an order under Clauses 1 to 5, to include a provision to remove the body or office subject to the order from the schedule or schedules in which the body was listed. The amendment ensures that, where a Minister has been able to implement the proposed reforms by virtue of an order under the Bill, that body can be removed from the relevant schedule and therefore be assured of its ongoing status.
Amendment 69C represents a solution—which, I am happy to state, has the support of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath—to the question of so-called omnibus orders relating to more than one body and whether they should be permissible under the Bill. I made a commitment in Committee to consider the matter further and have done so. During our debates in Committee, I expressed my concern that any restriction on omnibus orders should not prevent Ministers from the sensible and reasonable combination of related changes in a single order. For example, I am sure that the House will understand that there is little to be gained from a separate consideration of 160 orders making identical changes to internal drainage boards.
On that basis, the Government propose instead to amend Clause 11 to require that, should Ministers consider it appropriate to bring forward an omnibus order under Clauses 1 to 5, they must explain in the Explanatory Memorandum their justification for the decision. It will therefore be for Parliament to judge whether the Minister’s decision was appropriate. I consider that to be a sensible and proper solution.
I am delighted to have added my name to Amendment 72, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, the noble Baroness, Lady Royall of Blaisdon, and my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth. That amendment, much like the amendment in Committee which now forms Clause 16, represents the outcome of genuine engagement and compromise on all sides of the House. I pay tribute to noble Lords who have assisted in presenting it to the House this evening. Amendment 72 effectively sunsets the entries in the schedules by ensuring that an entry in the schedule automatically lapses five years after its commencement. The amendment therefore clarifies that the listing of a body in one of the schedules will not involve endless changes to that body's status but will be a vehicle for specific reforms which the Government expect to be carried out in a timely fashion. As I described the Government's thinking in Committee, the amendment will ensure that the powers in the Bill will remain on the statute book. That ensures that, following future reviews of public bodies, the Government will have the option of using primary legislation to repopulate the schedules as a means of making further reforms, subject to Parliament's consent.
For that reason, I am unable to support Amendment 72A in the name of my noble friend Lord Goodhart. That amendment would sunset the entire Bill, as well as the entries in the corresponding schedules, following the dissolution of this Parliament. To do so would be a mistake. It would leave the Government without a mechanism to take forward the outcomes of what I believe all sides of the House hope will be regular, systematic reviews of public bodies. Particularly given the work that this House has undertaken to craft a mechanism in the Bill which can command the confidence of Parliament and the public, it would be a retrograde step to ask future Parliaments to begin that process from scratch.
The Government's amendments in this group and Amendment 72 each significantly improve the mechanisms of the Bill and are the product of a process of engagement and deliberation that characterises this House at its best. It is a pity that we have had to introduce them at this late a stage, in front of a small House, but none the less their significance to the Bill is considerable. I commend them to the House and beg to move.
Viscount Eccles
My Lords, the first three amendments in this group are very welcome. Going right the way back to Second Reading, I remember the suggestion that Schedule 7 be dropped from the Bill being made right at that time. The dropping of Schedule 7 makes the arrangements for sunsetting a great deal easier to agree than they would have been if that schedule had stayed in. These two amendments are rather a subtle way of agreeing to a sunseting procedure, but they are none the less very welcome. I also remember that at Second Reading there was a suggestion that if this was the way that we were going and Schedule 7 were dropped, perhaps we would need Public Bodies Bill (No. 2). I am sure that my noble friends on the Front Bench and, particularly, my noble friend Lord Taylor are very pleased that he has found a way of avoiding Public Bodies Bill (No. 2), and I think we should all be very grateful for that. Finally, we have made a long journey and a lot of progress, which is extremely welcome.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I thank noble Lords for the general welcome given to these amendments. I thank those on the opposition Benches for their positive engagement on finding these solutions. For that, I am extremely grateful. I thank my noble friend Lord Goodhart for the gracious way in which he bowed to the consensus building on Amendment 72 and my noble friend Lord Eccles for the recognition he gave to the difficulties this Bill faced and for his part in overcoming those difficulties.
Public Bodies Bill [HL]
Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts(13 years, 8 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
“NOTE
1 Section 21(2)(a) does not apply to an order under section 5 which provides for—
(a) functions of the British Waterways Board falling within section 21(3)(b) to (e) to be transferred to another person;(b) functions of the Environment Agency falling within section 21(3)(b) to (e) to be transferred to a person to whom functions of the British Waterways Board are transferred by virtue of paragraph (a).”
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I would very much like to support my noble friend on this. It is timely to remember that thousands of people who work for the public bodies listed in this Bill are likely to be affected by its provisions. Many will lose their livelihoods; some will find their careers seriously damaged; some, as my noble friend Lord Whitty has said, will find themselves transferred to other employers. It is important that we recognise and acknowledge that those people have given dedicated service, in some cases for many years. Where they are transferring to another body, we must make the transition process as smooth as possible. That is clearly the intent behind my noble friend's amendment. It would ensure that, where a person is transferred to another body, TUPE will apply, with the implications and protections as described by my noble friend. I hope that the Minister will be able to provide the necessary assurances on that. The Government also need to take on board the point that my noble friend made about the complexity of the issue and the need for clarity, which is why his amendment deserves serious consideration.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I, too, am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for tabling the amendment, because it raises an important aspect of the reforms and allows the Committee to consider the impact of the Government's reform programme on the staff of the bodies affected. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the work of the thousands of hard-working staff of public bodies across the country. Specifically, I put on record that our proposed reforms to public bodies are no reflection on the work of the staff.
I assure the Committee that the Government are working with the chairs and chief executives of public bodies and trade union representatives to ensure that necessary change is carried out as smoothly and fairly as possible. As the noble Lord said, that must be an important aspect of this operation. The Government have been diligent in acknowledging the needs of staff during the public bodies review programme, and we will continue to be so—for example, by exploring opportunities for redeployment where possible.
The Cabinet Office has been working closely with other departments since 2010 to ensure that the needs of staff are fully factored into the public bodies programme of work, particularly on the need to provide staff with clarity following reform decisions and the milestones along the route. The Cabinet Secretary has sent a message to departments on that very point. The Cabinet Office has also provided a checklist of considerations for departments which takes the needs of staff and stakeholders into account.
Those arrangements reflect a flexible approach that ensures that government departments can respond in the context of individual changes—based, of course, on the proper protections that are already enshrined in UK employment law. That is the right approach to support our public bodies’ staff. It also reflects the Cabinet Office statement of practice on staff transfers in the public sector. The guiding principles, as set out in the document state:
“The Government is committed to ensuring that the public sector is a good employer and a model contractor and client”.
The principles recognise that the:
“involvement, commitment and motivation of staff are vital for achieving smooth and seamless transition during such organisational change”.
On the specifics of the amendment, I should like to inform the Committee why the Government believe that the blanket application of TUPE is not appropriate. TUPE, and the European law which underpins it, was designed to protect staff where the business for which they worked, or the services to which they were assigned, would be carried out by a different organisation. Staff retain their jobs and conditions, and the new employer steps into the shoes of the old one. The definition of relevant transfer under TUPE is broad and will cover most transfer situations.
However, Clause 23 already provides the mechanism for equivalent protection to be confirmed in non-TUPE situations where that is appropriate. That is underpinned by the Cabinet Office statement of practice on staff transfers, to which I have already referred, which provides that the TUPE principles should generally be followed through a transfer scheme which addresses the imperatives of the particular transfer.
The blanket application of TUPE to all transfers conducted pursuant to this Bill seems likely to lead to inefficiencies and unintended consequences. For example, there may be circumstances where a body following an order made under this Bill is carrying out functions which have significantly altered and which require different skills and resources, with the result that there is no relevant transfer for TUPE purposes. If TUPE were nevertheless to be applied, staff would be transferred to the new body by operation of law, only to be potentially made redundant by the transferee. This would involve extra work and unnecessary expense and delay with no benefit to anyone, increasing uncertainty for staff and possibly disruptive relocation.
I appreciate the concern of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and I can assure him that the Government will continue to have a positive approach to TUPE regulations where they properly apply, and seek to make appropriate provision where this is not the case. I hope that, in the light of the assurances I have given, he will feel free to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, I appreciate much of what the Minister has said about the approach of the Cabinet Office advice and what is going on in anticipation of various changes. Of course, we are not at a point, in most cases, where the exact format of the change is clear because we have to go through a period of consultation in association with the secondary legislation. However, I am slightly disappointed that he is not prepared to accept this amendment, because I had seen Clause 23(5), which referred to this, and my amendment was intended to be a rather clearer exposition of that principle and is the formulation that has been used on past occasions. It is true that people will find themselves employed by a new body and that there could be a redundancy very rapidly, but that has been the situation in both the private and the public sector, and is what is laid down in the TUPE regulations for a lot of situations and has happened in past public sector mergers.
The difficulty for me being able to be sufficiently reassured by the Minister’s words and by Clause 23(5)(f) is the question why, if on previous occasions, legislation has provided for a pretty unambiguous form of wording that I have outlined in this amendment, we could not use a similar form of words in here. I think that would be greater reassurance to the staff and trade unions that are having to deal with potential changes of employer. I do, however, accept the good intentions of the Government, and the Minister in particular, and will not press this amendment. I will consider his words carefully to see whether I need to bring it back at a later stage. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern
On the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said, there is a question of a chilling factor in relation to bodies or organisations once they are named in a Bill. There is something to be said for having a closure in respect of bodies named now but also, if we get the Bill through in a satisfactory way, for it being a model for future reviews of these public bodies. One difficulty has been to provide a definition of what is meant by a public body. If the Bill passes into law as a sound piece of review legislation then, after, for example, the end of this Parliament and the beginning of the next one, there is a good deal to be said for the next Government coming forward with a list of bodies that would be suggested as amendments to this Bill, which would then possibly be subject to review under the powers that we have stipulated in the Bill.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I do not suppose that the Committee would have chosen to debate this important group of amendments at this time of night. I do not really want to rush but I am mindful of the time. It is interesting that the amendments contain the workplace of me and the Bill team. This is certainly an area in which we are and have been much engaged. I hope that all noble Lords will understand that it is rarely possible to deliver everything. There are some areas where the Government have to draw a line but there are others—I think that I can indicate these in the debate this evening—where further consideration is justified and where I would hope to come back with amendments before Report, after discussions with noble Lords. I say that by way of preface.
The whole group of amendments relates to the procedures that Ministers must follow. These issues have had substantial discussion in Committee. I thank noble Lords across the Committee for their contributions. As I seek to respond to each amendment, I ask noble Lords to contextualise the debate against the changes that we have already announced in the Bill, notably the removal of Schedule 7 and our ongoing commitment to work with noble Lords on a variety of related issues.
I begin with Amendment 106A in the name of my noble friend Lord Newton of Braintree. This amendment would add the objectives of,
“fairness, openness, transparency and justice”,
to the list to which the Minister must have regard when considering making an order under Sections 1 to 6. I thank him for his amendment and reassure the Committee that these objectives underpin the Government’s rationale for reforming public bodies and, of course, the Government’s programme as a whole. It is good that my noble friend carries the coalition agreement in his inside pocket, close to his heart. I am reassured by that and always value his contributions, even when they are not necessarily supportive of everything that I am seeking to do with this Bill. The only points where I fear we disagree concern whether this amendment would work in practice and whether such wording is necessary on the face of the Bill. The Government believe that such a requirement in legislative terms would be ambiguous and could, as drafted, be quite difficult to measure or assess. However, it is an area in Clause 8 that we have committed to look at.
Amendment 114A returns us to the question of consultation, which was originally debated on our first day in Committee on this Bill. It would amend government Amendment 114 by introducing a specific requirement to consult the public before laying an order using the main powers in the Bill. The Government have accepted the principle that Ministers should be required to consult on their proposals to reform public bodies before using these powers. The Government also accept that in some cases it is completely appropriate to consult the public in relation to such proposals. For example, I can confirm to the Committee that the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills intends to consult this year on its proposed changes to competition bodies. We discussed that earlier this evening. It will be a public consultation. The Government Equalities Office will soon publish its consultation document on reform of the Equality and Human Rights Commission. Later this year, Defra will issue a public consultation on its plans to replace British Waterways with a charitable body.
However, I take issue with the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, as it would apply without due regard to proportionality to any proposed reform. Such an approach runs contrary not only to the policy of this Government but also to the existing code of practice on consultation, which was issued in June 2008 by the Government of whom the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, was a part. The introduction to the code of practice is clear:
“Ministers retain their existing discretion not to conduct formal consultation exercises under the terms of the Code. At times, a formal, written, public consultation will not be the most effective or proportionate way of seeking input from interested parties”.
I do not quote from this document to seek to absolve Ministers of responsibility. Subsection (1)(b) in Amendment 114 specifically requires a Minister to consult persons whom he or she considers,
“to be representative of interests substantially affected by the proposal”.
This provision clearly could include the public. The Minister must therefore expect to be held accountable for his or her decisions in relation to this provision. However, the proper requirement that Ministers should consider whether to consult the public does not lead to the conclusion that it will prove necessary or proportionate in all cases. For example, is it proportionate to require a full public consultation on the statutory abolition of Food From Britain, a body that, to all intents, has been defunct since 2009, or on the proposal to use Schedule 2 to merge the Pensions Ombudsman with the ombudsman for the board of the Pension Protection Fund? These two bodies already share services to a great extent and those functions will not change.
As with other cases in the Bill where the public will rightfully expect to be consulted, undoubtedly they will, but the Bill as drafted allows for that possibility and the Government accept their responsibility to ensure that that occurs when necessary. By contrast, the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, will remove the ability of Ministers to conduct a more targeted consultation when that is appropriate. While I have sympathy with the sentiment behind Amendment 114A, the Government do not believe that the public will welcome a proposal that would add unnecessary bureaucracy to the order-making process and with it, in effect, the process of reform.
The question of proportionality is also pertinent to Amendments 118A and 118B in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, which concern the parliamentary procedure that should apply to orders made under this Bill. In responding to these amendments, I should clarify for your Lordships’ House that we have substituted government Amendment 118 with a new version that makes it explicit that the enhanced procedure can be activated by a recommendation of a committee of either House. This clarification responds to paragraph 24(a) of the sixth report of the Delegated Powers Committee—that is, the committee’s second report on this Bill. I am happy to clarify the Government’s intentions in response.
Amendment 118A seeks to make it explicit that a Minister wishing to make an order following a period of consultation must lay before Parliament a draft order and explanatory document. I agree with the spirit of the noble Lord’s amendment, but I do not consider it necessary. While the current drafting of subsection (1) in government Amendment 118 states that a Minister,
“may lay … a draft order, and … an explanatory document”,
it would in practice not be possible to make an order without following this procedure. Our current drafting simply reflects the fact that, following a period of consultation under Amendment 114, the Minister is not obliged to proceed with the proposal.
Amendment 118B would introduce a wholly new parliamentary procedure for these orders, giving a committee of either House the opportunity not only to reject but also to amend an order, or to recommend that the proposals be taken forward only through primary legislation. As I argued when we debated this issue on the first day in Committee, the Government cannot support that proposal for a number of reasons. First, I maintain my position that the noble Lord’s amendment goes beyond the scope of the Bill in seeking to effect a fundamental shift in how this House deals with secondary legislation. Secondly, I do not accept that the powers of the Bill, especially in the light of the removal of Schedule 7 and the additional safeguards that the Government are now proposing, justify the use of such a restrictive parliamentary procedure. It is now the case that no body can be subject to the powers of the Bill unless Parliament has consented through primary legislation to its inclusion in the Bill’s schedules. The waiting room of Schedule 7 has gone. Therefore, the scope of the powers in this Bill has been significantly narrowed. On this basis, to continue to suggest that the Bill requires a more restrictive scrutiny procedure than, for example, the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act appears a disproportionate response, particularly in the light of the additional safeguards that we have introduced and continued to work towards and the fact that the proposed procedure would apply to each and every order made under this Bill.
I do not intend to quote a list of examples of such reforms. Suffice it to say that I do not consider that the opposition amendment represents a proportionate procedure for an order to abolish a body that is already defunct. Our approach, by contrast, gives Parliament the flexibility to select and enhance procedure while maintaining for the Government the reasonable ability to act to implement their programme. It is for this reason that I cannot accept Amendment 118B or Amendment 117.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. I will not detain the Committee very long. I want to make two points. First, presumably in the case of defunct bodies, the Select Committee appointed by the House could deal with this matter in very short order. The Merits Committee, for instance, deals with a huge number of statutory instruments every week. It will list a huge number to which it does not draw the special attention of the House and it focuses on the orders it considers to be most important. Secondly, the noble Lord has been pretty forthright in rejecting my amendment. Between now and Report will the Government at least give careful consideration to the report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee? It has reported only in the past few days and it covers this issue.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
Of course and I would like to feel that the noble Lord would know that I wish to continue the very useful dialogue we have had on this Bill. I felt it would help the noble Lord if I defined the areas where I feel there is going to be more scope for improving the Bill—as we would both describe it—and areas where I think it is not going to be possible. I thought it was better to be upfront and frank about it and I hope that the noble Lord will understand that. We want to maintain our dialogue because, despite the difficulties the Bill had in its early days, I believe this could be a very useful piece of legislation and one which suits both Government and Parliament in its operation provided we put the proper work into the foundations. We will have a chance to talk about that when we come to other amendments in this now slightly enhanced grouping.
As I said, this is why I cannot accept Amendment 118B or Amendment 176 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, which makes provision regarding the commencement date of amending orders using wording which appears to be drawn from the Civil Contingencies Act. That Act was designed to create a framework for dealing with emergency regulations, which, by their extreme nature, circumvent the usual channels of parliamentary scrutiny. I do not accept that there is a parallel between such orders and those which would be made under this Bill.
Originally my speaking note at this point mentioned sunsetting; then my speaking note did not mention sunsetting because the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, was going to be taken separately. If the noble Lord does not mind I will put it at the end because I think it is quite important that I can say a few words on it.
Amendment 176 would prevent an order being made under this Act from applying to more than one body or office. I understand the thinking behind the amendment which seeks to ensure proper parliamentary scrutiny of these important orders. However, I am also anxious that the Bill is not amended in such a way that will restrict the sensible decision-making of departments or overburden Parliament with a requirement to consider separately multiple orders of a similar class. I am thinking, for example, of the multiplicity of drainage boards which might have similar requirements for secondary legislation. I hope that any wording covering this would not exclude that because it would not be in the interests of efficient use of parliamentary time, particularly given that the changes to be taken forward by the said orders will in most cases have been debated thoroughly in primary legislation.
We do not accept the argument that in all cases the use of omnibus orders would necessarily reduce the level of parliamentary scrutiny. I should also say to the noble Lord that the particular amendments under discussion would have what I believe are unintended consequences by preventing any orders to merge bodies using the power in Clause 2 as such orders would by their nature apply to more than one body or office. However, I am willing to consider again whether some form of restriction on the use of omnibus orders might be appropriate. I would be happy to discuss that with the noble Lord prior to Report stage. So that is another item for our agenda.
Amendment 177 would remove the provision in Clause 27 that aims to give certainty to the order-making procedure and to avoid lengthy debates on hybridity that could unnecessarily delay reforms from being taken forward by Ministers. This sort of provision is not without precedent; nor does it broaden the powers of Ministers in any significant way. Indeed, similar provisions form parts of a number of Acts passed by the previous Administration, including the Regional Development Agencies Act 1998, the Freedom of Information Act 2000, the Charities Act 2006, the Climate Change Act 2008 and the Equality Act 2010. In addition, I am happy to assure the Committee that the Government’s initial assessment was that none of the proposed orders to take forward the reform of bodies listed in Schedules 1 to 6 could be considered hybrid.
Amendment 178 would require an annual report from a Minister regarding the use of order-making powers. I understand that the intention of this amendment is to ensure that the Government are properly held to account for their use of these powers, which is of course right and proper. However, the exercise of the powers will be a matter of public record, as is the case in the exercise of any powers made by statutory instrument. In addition, parliamentarians have a variety of means by which to question the Government on all aspects of policy relating to public bodies via Parliamentary Questions and the Select Committee process. I am unclear what is expected to be gained by the creation of a new reporting burden.
It is also the case that these powers will not be exercised centrally via the Cabinet Office but elsewhere by individual Ministers in departments, who will each have set out their own approach to public body reform in their departmental business plans. It is by reference to those documents that the Government have committed to be held to account and departments will report quarterly on them as a matter of course.
I turn to my noble friend Lord Goodhart’s amendments, which seek to sunset the order-making powers contained in Clauses 1 to 6, 13, 17 and 18 so that they could no longer be used after the dissolution of the present Parliament. As noble Lords will know, perhaps all too well, this is not the first time that we have debated this issue. Since our first day in Committee, the architecture of the Bill has changed as the Government have listened and responded to concerns raised by noble Lords. Most recently, that has resulted in the removal of Clause 11 and Schedule 7. For that reason, this is a timely debate as it allows the Committee to consider the issue in the new context in which we find ourselves.
The issue of sunsetting all the parts of the Bill is a complex one. I can see logic in not leaving bodies in schedules in perpetuity; I think that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay made a similar point. Although this is something that the Government are still considering, there is perhaps more merit in the option proposed recently by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, of sunsetting the contents of the schedules to the Bill rather than the powers themselves. That is all the more persuasive in the light of the removal of Schedule 7, which has drastically limited the scope of these powers, something that had not happened when my noble friend Lord Goodhart tabled his amendment.
Inserting a sunset clause that would limit the period in which powers could be used could now be counterproductive and potentially leave us in the same position as we are in today—that is, without a mechanism to take forward reforms following the regular review of public bodies that the Government will take forward, which I hope will continue in future. By contrast, leaving the powers on the statute book would leave open the possibility for Parliament to debate and consent to the repopulation of the Bill’s schedules through later primary legislation, without having to cover what would be well trodden ground. However, as I made clear to the noble Lord, the Government have already committed to consider this issue further prior to Report stage. I do not intend to renege on that agreement. I am happy to engage on this issue with my noble friend Lord Goodhart and other noble Lords. In that spirit, I hope that he will not press his amendment.
I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate and who have engaged in discussions at earlier stages as this is a culmination of other debates on mechanisms in this Bill. I have made it clear that we continue to look at Clause 8. I hope that my responses today and the amendments and the commitments that the Government have already made reassure the Committee that this Government will ensure that the procedure applicable to orders made under this Bill is proportionate and sensible and allows for proper parliamentary scrutiny of Ministers’ actions. In light of those assurances, I invite my noble friend Lord Newton of Braintree to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Newton of Braintree
My Lords, I need hardly say that I intend to withdraw the amendment. However, I wish to make a few observations. If I understood my noble friend aright, he said that there was no possibility that any order made in relation to any of these bodies could be hybrid.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, government Amendments 113ZA to 113E would change the circumstance in which consent is required from the devolved Administrations for orders brought forward under Clauses 1 to 6. Clause 9 stipulates the circumstances in which the consent of the devolved Administrations should be sought. At present, consent is required from the Scottish or Welsh Ministers or the appropriate Northern Ireland department. The Constitution Committee’s report recommended that consent should more appropriately be obtained from the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly or the Northern Ireland Assembly.
Following that report, and in consultation with the devolved Administrations, the Government have tabled amendments to change the current reference to Ministers to reference to the legislatures, in order to reflect the views of the Constitution Committee and the devolved Administrations, which are content with these proposals and have agreed to legislative consent Motions based on this provision.
The remaining government amendments are in response to further consultation with the devolved Administrations. They widen the circumstances in which consent from the Scottish Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly would be required in order properly to reflect the relevant devolution settlements, and have been reached in agreement with those Administrations and, again, the devolved Administrations have agreed to legislative consent Motions based on this provision.
Amendment 113AA extends the need for consent from the Scottish Parliament to take into account situations that may arise where functions of Scottish Ministers are altered by changes made by the Bill, but where those changes are not already covered by Clause 9(1) as it stands. The amendment excludes the need for consent to some changes under Clauses 1 and 2, because it would not be appropriate to require consent from devolved Ministers where a body’s functions are in a reserved area and the body is being abolished, or abolished by way of merger. Without this exception, consent of devolved Ministers would be required in areas that are primarily reserved under the Scotland Act 1998.
The drafting reflects agreement reached with the Scottish Government, and we believe that it is a sensible and pragmatic solution that will allow us to implement orders under this Bill effectively. The amendments also ensure that the Bill is consistent with the legislative consent motion currently lodged in the Scottish Parliament, following discussions between my department and the Scottish Government. I beg to move.
Lord Rowlands
I warmly welcome the amendments introduced by the Minister, because the Constitution Committee made a sensible proposal. It was obviously clear that it should apply to not only Welsh Ministers but the Welsh Assembly.
(b) which modifies the functions of the Scottish Ministers.(1A) Consent is not required under subsection (1)(b) in relation to provision abolishing a function of the Scottish Ministers which relates to a body abolished under section 1 or 2.”
“Consultation
(1) A Minister proposing to make an order under sections 1 to 6 must consult—
(a) the body or the holder of the office to which the proposal relates,(b) such other persons as appear to the Minister to be representative of interests substantially affected by the proposal,(c) the Scottish Ministers, if the proposal relates to any matter, so far as applying in or as regards Scotland, in relation to which the Scottish Ministers exercise functions (and where the consent of the Scottish Parliament is not required under section 9),(d) a Northern Ireland department, if the proposal relates to any matter, so far as applying in or as regards Northern Ireland, in relation to which the department exercises functions (and where the consent of the Northern Ireland Assembly is not required under section 9),(e) the Welsh Ministers, if the proposal relates to any matter, so far as applying in or as regards Wales, in relation to which the Welsh Ministers exercise functions (and where the consent of the National Assembly for Wales is not required under section 9),(f) where the functions affected by the proposal relate to the administration of justice, the Lord Chief Justice, and(g) such other persons as the Minister considers appropriate.(2) If, as a result of consultation under subsection (1), it appears to the Minister appropriate to change the whole or part of the proposal, the Minister must carry out such further consultation with respect to the changes as seems appropriate.
(3) It is immaterial for the purposes of this section whether consultation is carried out before or after the commencement of this section.”
“Procedure
(1) If after consultation under section (Consultation) the Minister considers it appropriate to proceed with the making of an order under sections 1 to 6, the Minister may lay before Parliament—
(a) a draft order, and(b) an explanatory document. (2) The explanatory document must—
(a) introduce and give reasons for the order (including reasons relating to the objectives in section 8(1)),(b) explain why the Minister considers that the conditions in section 8(2)(a) and (b) are satisfied, and(c) contain a summary of representations received in the consultation.(3) The Minister may not act under subsection (1) before the end of the period of twelve weeks beginning with the day on which the consultation began.
(4) Subject as follows, if after the expiry of the 40-day period the draft order laid under subsection (1) is approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament, the Minister may make an order in the terms of the draft order.
(5) The procedure in subsections (6) to (9) shall apply to the draft order instead of the procedure in subsection (4) if—
(a) either House of Parliament so resolves within the 30-day period, or(b) a committee of either House charged with reporting on the draft order so recommends within the 30-day period and the House to which the recommendation is made does not by resolution reject it within that period.(6) The Minister must have regard to—
(a) any representations,(b) any resolution of either House of Parliament, and(c) any recommendations of a committee of either House of Parliament charged with reporting on the draft order,made during the 60-day period with regard to the draft order.(7) If after the expiry of the 60-day period the draft order is approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament, the Minister may make an order in the terms of the draft order.
(8) If after the expiry of the 60-day period the Minister wishes to proceed with the draft order but with material changes, the Minister may lay before Parliament—
(a) a revised draft order, and(b) a statement giving a summary of the changes proposed.(9) If the revised draft order is approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament, the Minister may make an order in the terms of the revised draft order.
(10) For the purposes of this section an order is made in the terms of a draft order or revised draft order if it contains no material changes to its provisions.”
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
I, too, am delighted that the Minister has added his name to the Clause 11 and Schedule 7 stand part debate, and pay tribute to him for listening so attentively to everyone around the Chamber.
I feel sure that I know exactly how it will have happened. He will have been in the Cabinet Office, or wherever, and the Secretary of State will be saying, “Don’t be silly. Of course you can get it through the Lords”. He will be saying, “No, I’m listening. I can't. It’s too difficult”. Eventually, the noble Lord’s arguments will have prevailed, and I am delighted about that.
In moving that the Bill be read a second time, the noble Lord said:
“The fact that a body is named in Schedule 7 to the Bill should not be misconstrued as constituting an intent to abolish or otherwise reform”.—[Official Report, 9/11/10; col. 67.]
He said that in good faith, but it is understandable that any body mentioned in Schedule 7 was immediately worried. Its current operations and future prospects were thrown into doubt and confusion. I recognise that that cannot have been the Government’s intent—that simply does not make economic sense or for good governance—but it was the reality. Each organisation believed itself to be just two orders away from modification, merger or, even worse, abolition. The chilling factor already mentioned was mighty.
If the Minister had not indicated that the Government were minded to delete Clause 11 and Schedule 7, I can assure him that Committee stage would have lasted for even longer, because it would have been our duty to table an amendment on each of the bodies to tease out from the Government their intentions for the body in question. Thankfully, such scrutiny was not needed but, more importantly, the clause and schedule are being deleted, so the axe has been lifted and the bodies mentioned can get on with their work.
I do not want to detain noble Lords at this hour, but I must say that Clause 11 and Schedule 7 were very unwise. They are a testament to rushed drafting and a woeful lack of consultation between the Cabinet Office and other departments. The Government have seen sense; and I am glad. I have a question for the Minister. I presume that some of the bodies mentioned in the schedule might be moved at some stage in the legislative process. Can he say which or how many bodies will be moved, where they will be moved to and when that will be? I would naturally also be grateful for confirmation that the necessary consultation is taking place at this moment with any bodies likely to be moved from Schedule 7 into another schedule.
I have great sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, when he says that there should be a Public Bodies Bill at the beginning of each Parliament but, in essence, if we are all content with the framework of this Bill and the schedules are sunsetted, that is what we will have.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I am very grateful for those contributions. If there were any doubt why we were wise not to keep Schedule 7 in the Bill, the answer lies in the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands. As like as not, nothing would have happened to those bodies. They would have been subject to a review in another three years under a periodic review of public bodies, which is an ongoing commitment of the Government. As the noble Baroness pointed out, it was very difficult for any representative of the Government to convince public bodies that that was the case. We may now have a much more satisfactory solution—from both a parliamentary and a practical point of view—to how the review of public bodies can be an ongoing process.
I thank my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth. He and I have known each other longer, I guess, than any other people in this House. We were youngsters together. Indeed, my noble friend was the William Hague of his day at Conservative Party conferences, but he will probably not thank me very much for revealing that to the House. I thank him for his comments. We have taken the committee’s reports seriously and sought to address them, because I have taken the view that the guidance of this House has been positive rather than destructive.
I turn specifically to a comment of the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, that there was a lack of discussion between the departments. I do not think there has been any Bill in which there has been so much discussion across government departments. It is one of the complexities of this Bill that it involves every department, so all departments have been involved in the preparation and structure of the Bill.
As for the detailed question which the noble Baroness asked me about any movement of bodies into schedules during various stages of the Bill, I am not in a position to give an answer on that at this stage, but I will keep the House informed. We are determined that nothing should be introduced to the Bill that cannot be justified by a strong sense of purpose and suitability, and it is not a large number of bodies involved. Consultations are going on, but there will be a number of bodies where proposals exist to come into the Bill that will not be introduced into the Bill because we do not consider that they are in a suitable state of preparation. We feel that we have to justify the admission of any body that we bring into the Bill at this stage. I think that is a reasonable position, and I hope all Members of the Committee will agree with that.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and I have talked about the problem that she has. When she talked about the Government being deaf, I hope she was not referring to me. I hope she would acknowledge that I responded immediately to the point she made; I got a response and I showed it to her this evening before we came in here in the hope that we would not have to debate it. That is because it is not really a matter for this Bill; it is a matter of the relationship between public bodies—and particularly those in the legal sector—and Government. I will, of course, write to her on the situation as it is, and I note her interest in the matter. I hope that we can keep in touch.
I should just say a few words on these parts of the Bill. As set out in the House on 28 February, these parts of the Bill were designed to facilitate the Government’s stated commitment to the regular review of all public bodies by creating a means by which changes to such bodies could be made following future reviews without recourse to further primary legislation. It was not, as some have suggested, intended to threaten the status of public bodies that the Government had decided needed to be retained. In particular, the Government recognise that some public functions need to be carried out independently of Ministers. Schedule 7 was never intended to hinder or threaten their independence. However, following representations from noble Lords across the House, including Members of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, the Government have acknowledged the significant concern within the House that these parts of the Bill represented a significant delegation of powers to Ministers and had the potential to constitute a threat to the necessary independence of some public functions.
Accordingly, I have added my name to those of other noble Lords opposing the question that Clause 11 and Schedule 7 should stand part of the Bill. The consequences of removing these parts from the Bill will be that the powers in the Public Bodies Bill cannot apply to any body or office without the express approval of Parliament through primary legislation for that body or office to be listed in one of the Bill’s schedules. Accordingly, any changes to public bodies following the Government’s planned future reviews which necessitate legislation will require a primary legislative vehicle. I hope that this change provides a significant assurance to the Committee both as regards the status of bodies and the Government’s commitment to the appropriate parliamentary scrutiny of government policy.
As I set out on 28 February, it will also be necessary, as a result of the removal of Schedule 7, to introduce a small number of amendments to move bodies currently in that schedule to one or more of the other schedules. These changes will ensure that all the reforms announced in last year’s review can be implemented. These amendments will be made at a later stage of the Bill.
I thank noble Lords for their contributions to the debate and for their positive and helpful engagement on the question of the proper scope and mechanism of this Bill. Throughout its passage to date I hope that, in agreeing to oppose the question that Clause 11 and Schedule 7 should stand part, I have been able to demonstrate the Government’s commitment to engage with and respond to the concerns of noble Lords.
Viscount Eccles
This clause covers the procedure for orders made under Clause 11, so I imagine that it must go. It is about orders made under Clause 11(1). If Clause 11 has gone, Clause 12 must go, too.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
Having just been speaking, it was quite difficult to get order into my papers, but I am there now.
Lord Norton of Louth
I add my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Lester, and all those involved in generating the amendment. I have previously made the point that, in terms of parliamentary scrutiny, the work on the Bill has been an example of best practice. The amendment is a particularly fine example of that in terms of the consultation that has taken place to produce an amendment for which there is agreement throughout the House. It is an excellent addition to the Bill.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, I am delighted that the amendment has received such a welcome. As noble Lords will know, my name is on it, too. I have a note here that thanks an awful lot of people, quite correctly, including my noble friend Lord Lester of Herne Hill, for his persistence and commitment to get this right, and my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, whose advice has been invaluable to us all. I am grateful for the support that the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, has also given to this and to noble Lords opposite for their support. We have all wanted to see the amendment included. My speaking note contains no mention at all of the people who probably had to work hardest of all on the amendment—the Bill team—in trying to get the wording right. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for mentioning that and I thank members of the team for their commitment to get this right.
As noble Lords have said, the amendment will, I hope, provide substantial reassurance to the Committee and the wider public that the Bill will be used to bring forward only necessary and proportionate reforms that will maintain the independence of those public functions that clearly need to operate at arm’s length from government. I am delighted that it has been added to the Bill and I trust that it will secure the support of all sides of the House.
“(2) In this Act, references to the “30-day”, “40-day” and “60-day” periods in relation to any draft order are to the periods of 30, 40 and 60 days beginning with the day on which the draft order was laid before Parliament.
(3) For the purposes of subsection (2) no account is to be taken of any time during which Parliament is dissolved or prorogued or during which either House is adjourned for more than four days.”