Baroness Quin
I, too, support my noble friend Lord Judd in his amendment. I was very struck by the support that, even in a very brief debate, he received throughout the Chamber with the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, who, we know, is strongly committed to the national parks, and the noble Lords, Lord Cameron and Lord Maclennan. The Government can be in no doubt about the strength of support for the national parks that clearly exists on all sides of the House.
As my noble friend told us previously, he is a vice president of the Campaign for National Parks. I am not involved in quite the same way, but I would like to thank the campaign for the briefing and information that it is always ready to send to Members of your Lordships' House.
I also thank the Government for clearly responding to some of the concerns expressed the last time that we debated this in Committee. In particular, they removed the national parks and Broads authorities from Schedules 5 and 6 to the Bill relating to the power to modify, transfer or delegate functions. Because of that, it is not surprising that the debate has focused on the continuing mention of these authorities in Schedule 3. I agree with the comments and concerns that have been expressed about this.
Obviously, mention was made of the consultation that has taken place and to which the Minister referred when we dealt with this in Committee. In Committee, he said that he and his colleagues were currently considering the responses to that consultation and were committed to announcing the outcome by the end of March. Well, the end of March is this week. Perhaps this evening the Minister might have something to say about the outcome of that consultation. At the time, he was thinking that we would probably get to this part of Report after Easter. None the less, given the interest and concern about this, we would like to know the preliminary findings of the consultation exercise.
In speaking this evening I want to reinforce the questions asked by my noble friend. The key one is why it is still felt necessary to include these organisations in Schedule 3 given the powers that Ministers already have under other legislation. Are there elements of the changes that the Government want to make that cannot be done via the legislation that already exists? We need an answer to that specific point in relation to national parks—it has been pointed out to me that perhaps the Broads legislation is somewhat different in this respect. What is not available to Ministers under the 1996 Act and other legislation mentioned by my noble friend that is already on the statute book?
We would like a list of the constitutional arrangements that the Minister feels are best dealt with in this Bill and cannot be dealt with by some other legislative instrument. Without information of that kind, what is being proposed still seems too wide, too open-ended and too vague. We are not in a clear position to judge what is in the Government's mind.
As we were reminded today, the 11th report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee stated that despite the welcome changes that the Government have made in the Bill, the committee is still very concerned about the,
“exceptionally wide delegated powers which remain in clauses 1 to 5 and 13”.
Given that concern and the importance to our country of the national parks and the Broads, we should get some answers to the questions that were well raised by my noble friend and others who took part in this evening’s debate.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley)
My Lords, I will respond to Amendments 31 and 34 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. I would like to say to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, that there has been no element of his legs having been broken or anything like that. Sadly, my noble friend Lord Greaves is ill. He is not here, so we wish him well and look forward to seeing him back in due course.
I will also speak to Amendments 46, 53, 57, 58 and 59. Amendments 58 and 59 are in the name of my noble friend Lord Taylor. Amendments 46, 53 and 57 are in the names of my noble friends Lord Greaves and Lord Taylor, which gives some indication of where we are coming from on those issues.
I agree totally and utterly with the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, about the strength of support on her own Benches for the national parks and the Broads authorities. That is true of all Benches throughout this House, and I reiterate it on behalf of the Government.
We had a good debate on this matter in Committee on a similar group of amendments, and on that occasion I explained the Government’s thinking in placing these bodies in Schedules 3, 5 and 6. I shall make things absolutely clear on the scope of Schedule 3 for the noble Lord, Lord Judd, who seemed to imply that the provision could be used in a slightly wider way, with matters from other clauses. We do not think that Schedule 3 could be used to go wider than it is set out, and I hope that I shall be able to cover that matter in due course. We dealt with Amendments 3, 5 and 6, which stemmed from the consultation on the governance arrangements for those bodies, which honoured a commitment in the coalition agreement—our bible—and was run in close co-operation with the national parks and Broads authorities. We asked each authority to make recommendations following consultation on the changes needed for their governance arrangements. We were clear from the start that the objective was to improve the governance arrangements of those bodies and not to remove or replace them. For that reason, they do not appear in other schedules to the Bill—not in Schedules 1 or 2, for example. Our consultation began with these words:
“The Government wishes to retain an independent authority, as currently exists, for each of the National Parks and the Broads. It intends that these authorities should continue to be the local planning authority for their areas”.
The paper then went on to raise a number of questions about what modifications or refinements of the current governance arrangements might be desirable.
In Committee, your Lordships pressed me on the sort of steps we might want to take and on why those could not be achieved without this Bill, perhaps by using powers which already exist in the Environment Act 1995 or the Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act 2006. Of course, at that time it was too early for me to be able to give concrete examples, as we were still at an early stage of evaluating the consultation. I have a slightly embarrassing admission to make, because at that stage I announced that we would have the outcome of our consultation by the end of this month. That has slipped a little, because that takes us into the period of local government elections purdah, and it will not now be until after the elections. At that stage, I still thought that Report stage might be after Easter, but one never knows quite what the Opposition will achieve in delaying government legislation. So there has been a degree of blame on all sides. But we have made significant progress in identifying what might be in our response. As a result, we have come to the conclusion that there is very little likelihood of the powers in Clauses 5 or 6—the powers to transfer functions and authorise delegation—being needed to implement any changes resulting from that consultation. For this reason, I propose to remove the national parks and Broads authorities from the schedules. That is why Schedule 6—because they are the only bodies left in that schedule—will disappear, and Amendments 46, 53, 57 and 58 have that effect. Amendment 59 is a consequential amendment that removes the reference to Clause 6 from Clause 7. Although it is clear that Clauses 5 and 6 are not required to implement necessary changes, the same is not true for Schedule 3, which deals with constitutional arrangements, so I cannot agree to the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Judd.
It would not be appropriate for me to pre-empt or predict the announcement that we shall make after the May elections. However, purely by way of illustration, the House will see a number of the suggestions which national parks authorities have already made. The proposals are—dare I say it?—largely in the public domain, having featured in various board papers produced by the authorities, and elsewhere. They include, for example, the power to remove the requirement for the Secretary of State formally to appoint the members whom parish councils choose and the power to allow non-councillors to be eligible for the parish seats, or to limit the maximum time that all members may serve on a national parks authority. Any of those points, if accepted, could be delivered through Clause 3.
I appreciate that noble Lords might feel that there are other ways of dealing with these things but we think it would actually be easier and better, under the powers in the Bill, to deal with those matters in that way. I therefore hope that your Lordships will agree that it is premature to consider removing Schedule 3 at this stage and that it should continue to stand as part of the Bill. There is no sinister motive behind that; all we are proposing is a power to amend constitutions and all the usual checks and balances are available in the Bill. We want to look at what comes out of that consultation. I have given some hint of that in what has appeared in the public domain but the noble Lord, Lord Judd, will probably know even more—the noble Lord smiles—about what might come from it. I hope that he will accept that this should continue to be part of the Bill.
As I said, we are perfectly happy to remove the national parks and Broads authorities from Schedules 5 and 6, which is why we have tabled our amendments. However, it is quite right that they should remain part of Schedule 3 on the power to modify constitutions. With those assurances, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Judd, will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Judd
My Lords, first, I thank the noble Lord for his response and for its friendly tones, which I appreciate and which have characterised the Government’s approach to discussions on the future of the national parks. I want everybody to recognise that we know that and appreciate it greatly. We are all getting titbits of indications about what might be in the review and what its outcome might be. The noble Lord has given us a few sweeteners and I have certainly heard some reports and seen some assessments of what that exercise might have indicated, but in the assessments I have seen there is no indication whatever of any great demand for radical change—none at all. There are some very constructive observations but there seems to be no argument coming out for a radical change of arrangements.
I am sure that the Minister, who is a reasonable man, will agree that it is not really satisfactory to be considering giving those undefined and extensive powers to which the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, referred so well before we have seen the outcome of the consultation. If that consultation was necessary, surely we should see its outcome before we decide whether we want to give Ministers certain powers to meet that situation. This is untidy and the noble Lord in his heart of hearts probably would agree with me that constitutionally it is not really acceptable. There are also—and my noble friend Lady Quin made the point very well—all sorts of provisions under existing legislation. It just is not clear what is going to be better about putting these new, very extensive, open, ill-defined powers into this Bill.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, perhaps I may briefly support my noble friend in saying that I hope that the noble Earl will be able to give the assurance that he requires. The problem with Schedule 3 is that, on the face of it, it gives considerable power to Ministers to alter the constitutional arrangements of bodies and offices. I take that to mean that, if the Government were unhappy with the performance of the board of such an organisation, they could make drastic changes in its governance arrangements by bringing an order before Parliament. The problem is that that power could also be used to remove members of the board who may be causing some disagreeableness to the Government. That is a matter of concern. Clearly, if these public bodies are not able to exercise their functions in a robust and independent way, they are unlikely to do their job effectively. This relates to all the bodies listed but I think that the question that my noble friend has raised about Passenger Focus is a fair one to put to the noble Earl, Lord Attlee. I hope that, specifically in regard to this body, the noble Earl will say on the record from the Dispatch Box that the changes envisaged to governance et cetera will only be minor.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, this amendment would remove Passenger Focus from Schedule 3, preventing our current proposals to change the governance arrangements of the body. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, asks why the body is still here in the Bill. He also mentioned other bodies, such as Citizens Advice. He will recognise that BIS is developing proposals for reforming the wider consumer landscape, but it is too soon to say how the reform of Passenger Focus will fit with that, as this is too long term.
The noble Lord expanded his point to Citizens Advice and trading standards organisations, if I may put it like that. We would not want to rule that out but the consideration of options is at too early a stage for any commitment to be given. As was made clear in Committee, the appearance of Passenger Focus in the Bill does not reflect the view that passengers’ interests are unimportant. We are very clear that passengers are the only reason that we run a public transport system in the first place. In addition, we fully accept the need for a powerful passenger advocate, which is reinforced by EU provisions that require us to have a properly independent complaints body to which passengers can turn. Passenger Focus has that role. This was reflected in the public bodies review, which concluded that Passenger Focus should be retained but substantially reformed to focus on the core role of protecting passengers, while reducing costs to taxpayers.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, made the important point—if I might paraphrase him—that this is perhaps an opportunity to weaken the body in certain circumstances. The answer to that is simply no. We want to maintain an effective passenger advocate; that is the best way of ensuring that transport operators are held properly to account. The Government also value having a passenger advocate that has the confidence and expertise to be a critical friend to the Government and is prepared, where appropriate, to hold both the Government and transport operators to account. This is an opportunity to ensure that role is performed in a robust and cost-effective way.
A significant amount of work has already taken place to review the details of Passenger Focus’s work for next year within a significantly reduced budget. As part of this process, it is right that we should look at areas such as the size and composition of the Passenger Focus board. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, asked how we would achieve the reduction in budget. An obvious area for reduction is research. We do not expect research to end altogether, but it is right to be sure that the current range of research is genuinely justifiable. We need to consider whether operators should do more to canvass the views of their customers, rather than expect the Government to pay for research.
As referred to in Committee, Schedule 3 can be used to implement changes to the composition of the Passenger Focus board. Indeed, we understand that Passenger Focus has for some time been considering streamlining the board’s operation. Although the details are still to be finalised, it makes sense that a scaling back of its activities should be accompanied by a smaller board that will also result in savings for the taxpayer. I understand that Passenger Focus is looking at reducing the size and cost of its board through a combination of measures, including not filling vacancies and changing the scale and scope of board meetings. The Government are working constructively with Passenger Focus to help it maintain its important functions within the constraints of a reduced budget.
We are also interested in exploring the continued funding of passenger representation in Scotland and Wales, where rail policy is largely a devolved matter. We are in contact with the devolved Administrations about how this may be taken forward. Some of Passenger Focus’s other specific Scottish and Welsh passenger activity, such as the current passenger link work, is expected to be restructured in a similar way to that in England.
I hope the noble Lord is persuaded that there are good reasons to have the ability to change the governance arrangements for Passenger Focus and that he will therefore feel able to withdraw his amendment on that basis.
Lord McNally
“Advisory Council on Public Records.”
Lord McNally
My Lords, the three amendments in this group are in the name of my noble friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach. The reason that I am moving them is twofold. First, I am the Minister responsible for the National Archives; secondly, I am badly in need of a victory today.
The amendments moving the Advisory Council on Public Records, the Public Record Office and the Keeper of the Public Records to Schedule 5 constitute a straightforward and, I hope, uncontroversial legal tidying-up exercise—although I worry that the noble Lord, Lord Warner, is still in his place. They have been agreed with and led by the current chief executive of the National Archives, who is also the Keeper of the Public Records. I reassure noble Lords that no functions currently performed by the National Archives or any of its component parts will be negatively affected. There is no impact on staff and no financial implications.
The rationale for the reforms is to place the National Archives, its chief executive and its advisory bodies on a statutory footing, enabling the Government legally to complete the changes that began with its establishment as an administrative entity in 2003. That involves transferring the statutory duties of some of the National Archives’ component parts using Schedule 5, which grants powers to modify or transfer functions to reflect existing administrative arrangements. For example, the role of the Advisory Council on Public Records is to advise the Lord Chancellor on matters concerning public records and archives. Following the merger of the Public Record Office and the Historical Manuscripts Commission in 2003, their respective Advisory Councils on Public Records and Historical Manuscripts also came together to form the Advisory Council on National Records and Archives.
The separate legal functions of the Advisory Councils on Public Records and Archives have for the past seven years been administered by the Advisory Council on National Records and Archives. The chairman of the Advisory Council on Public Records, the Master of the Rolls, assumed the chairmanship of the new body upon its creation and continues to do so.
The council will therefore be included in Schedule 5 to enable it to be renamed the Advisory Council on National Records and Archives, assuming the functions of the existing, non-statutory, Advisory Council on National Records and Archives and the Advisory Council on Historical Manuscripts. This change will therefore formalise the current arrangements to form a single body, providing greater clarity and efficiency, with one body doing the work of three.
In the case of the Keeper of Public Records, the Lord Chancellor appoints the keeper to take charge, care for and preserve public records under his direction. The chief executive of the National Archives holds the statutory office of keeper, as well as the office of Historical Manuscripts Commissioner. By moving the keeper to Schedule 5 to the Bill, the Government will be able to consolidate these roles—and those of the Queen’s Printer of Acts of Parliament and Controller of Her Majesty’s Stationery Office—into one statutory office, the Keeper of the National Archives. This reform will clarify lines of accountability for the National Archives’ various functions by putting in statute the responsibilities of a new keeper. The changes will not affect the way that functions are carried out, and there are no financial implications. It is important to emphasise again that these reforms have been agreed with, and led by, the current Keeper of Public Records.
The Public Record Office was created by the Public Record Office Act 1838 as the national archive for public records. In 2003, the Public Record Office merged with the Historical Manuscripts Commission to form an administrative entity, the National Archives. In 2006, the Office of Public Sector Information and HM Stationery Office were also merged with the National Archives. All four bodies continue to exercise their legal functions, but within a single administrative body— the National Archives—under a single chief executive. The Public Record Office is therefore a statutory component of the National Archives.
The Government are committed to preserving the legal functions performed by the Public Record Office, and it will therefore be moved to Schedule 5, allowing the National Archives to absorb its functions and those carried out by other, non-statutory component parts of the organisation. Clause 7(3) will permit any necessary changes to the Public Record Office’s constitutional arrangements, in particular its renaming as the National Archives, and the expansion of its funding to cover its new functions. This will put the organisation on a clear legal footing, provide clarity to the public and finalise the merger process begun under the previous Administration.
These amendments will enable the Government to place the National Archives, its chief executive and one of its advisory councils on a much clearer statutory basis, strengthening—not weakening—the ability of these bodies to perform functions which the Government believe to be of immense cultural value. I hope, on that basis, that noble Lords will feel able to support these amendments.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)
My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords for providing us with a further opportunity to debate the future of these two bodies. As is clear, these amendments would have the effect of putting the Human Tissue Authority and the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority outside the scope of the Public Bodies Bill. The Government recognise that a number of your Lordships remain unconvinced of the merits of our plans to reform these arm’s-length bodies. The concerns that various speakers have raised are ones that we have debated previously and are therefore familiar. I hope, nevertheless, that I can address them.
To begin, I strongly feel that we cannot continue with the parallel systems of regulation that are currently running. There must be some scope for rationalisation and relieving the overall burden on those regulated. However, in looking to achieve that, I fully recognise the need to retain regulatory rigour and expertise in the fields of embryology and human tissue. I therefore offer further reassurance on those issues that have proved of most concern: the retention of expertise, public consultation and the potential savings offered by our proposals.
First, expertise will not be lost. It is envisaged that the expertise invested in individuals will follow functions —for instance, through staff transfers and establishing expert reference groups. There will be a carefully managed transition between regulators, which will ensure that key skills and knowledge are passed on to receiving organisations.
Secondly, there will be extensive consultation later in the summer on where functions are best transferred and, subsequently, on the orders to effect the transfers. We envisage that our consultation will cover two main areas. It will set out our proposals for the transfer of the regulation of treatment and research, and set out the options and considerations for other functions where there may be several different possible destinations, such as those related to the collection and sharing of information or policy decision-making. Let me be clear that these functions, which are required under the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act and the Human Tissue Act, will continue. A number of your Lordships have voiced the fear that, for instance, the HFEA’s registers and databases will be dissipated or lost. That will not happen. The consultation document will set out a number of different options for how these functions might be delivered in the future, and we will listen to people’s views about this. I can reassure the House that, in considering how to transfer functions, we will want to maintain the best aspects of the current regulatory system and avoid action that might undermine them.
Thirdly, I turn to financial savings. Together, the budgets for the HFEA and the HTA total £13.6 million. Through the streamlining of regulatory functions, we envisage scope for savings in three areas. The first will be in grant-in-aid for reduced overall running costs. The second will be for the regulated bodies in licence fees. The third will be for those bodies in the preparation and demonstration of compliance with the regulatory system. A leading clinician licensed by the HFEA recently said:
“We pay over £100,000 per annum in fees to the HFEA. Since 80% of our work is NHS funded that means that over £80,000 of the money that the PCT pays for fertility treatments goes straight to the HFEA”.
That is money which in large measure could be saved and used to deliver healthcare to patients. The department will undertake more detailed analysis of current costs and potential savings to inform an impact assessment which will be developed as part of the consultation process, so the whole set of equations will be transparent.
Lord Harries of Pentregarth
I thank the Minister for giving way. In relation to that last point, when the impact assessment is made will it be possible not only to assess the impact of what the Government are proposing but that of simply telling the existing bodies that they have to cut costs by a certain amount, so that the one can be weighed against the other?
Earl Howe
My Lords, I do not think that I am chancing my arm by saying that that is my understanding of what the impact assessment ought to look like in that a typical impact assessment will have within it several alternatives so that it is possible to compare different options. I would be happy to come back to the noble and right reverend Lord with a definite answer on that but my understanding from previous impact assessments is that that kind of benchmarking ought to be possible.
The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, has previously raised her concerns about where the ethical framework for any new arrangements will sit. Ethical safeguards, for example concerning the embryos and gametes that can be used in treatment, the need to consider the welfare of the child and the need for consent in respect of human tissue, are clearly enshrined in legislation in accordance with the wishes of Parliament. These safeguards will continue to remain firmly in place and will underpin the regulation of treatment and research as currently, by whoever is responsible for regulating. Where there are specific ethical issues surrounding new treatments, the department will consider how best to commission expert advice on an individual basis, as is currently being done for mitochondrial transfer, for example.
A number of noble Lords have shown interest in and support for the Government’s announcement last week, as part of the growth review, about streamlining research regulation and governance. The Government announced in the Plan for Growth on 23 March that they will create a health research regulatory agency to combine and streamline approvals for health research which are at present scattered across many organisations. As a first step, the Government will establish this year a special health authority with the National Research Ethics Service as its core. When established, the new agency will work closely with the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency to create a unified approval process and promote proportionate standards for compliance and inspection within a consistent national system of research governance.
This will reduce the regulatory burden on firms and improve the timeliness of decisions about clinical trials and hence the cost-effectiveness of their delivery in the UK, and has clear support from the Academy of Medical Sciences review of medical research regulation and governance.
In this context, it is important for me to remind the House of a key point. Here I refer particularly to the question posed by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries. The AMS report recognised at paragraph 9.5.1 that there are significant benefits in bringing all medical research regulation, including embryo research currently undertaken by the HFEA, within the remit of a single health research regulatory agency. Indeed, remarks made by Sir Michael Rawlins in the Guardian on 11 January firmly backed up that view. We agree with that proposition but again the consultation will invite views on it.
My noble friend Lord Willis expressed his fears about the Government adopting a piecemeal approach to reorganisation, as did some other noble Lords. I accept that our approach to the HFEA and the HTA may indeed seem rather complex. The powers of the Public Bodies Bill will enable us to transfer some of the functions of the HFEA and HTA to other bodies but they do not enable us to do everything that we have set out in the arm’s-length body review. In order to abolish the HFEA and HTA, or to transfer their research-related functions to any new research agency, we will require powers under future primary legislation.
It might help if I provided a rough outline of how and when we could take this forward. We intend publicly to consult on proposals to transfer all the HFEA and HTA functions to other bodies in the late summer of this year. During 2012-13, under the provisions of the Bill, we will prepare draft orders for formal consultation dealing with the transfer of functions, other than research functions. If appropriate, we would then be able to lay the orders before Parliament. This process would enable noble Lords and other interested parties to see, comment on and debate the proposals, as they progress.
Without the inclusion of these bodies in Schedule 5, we would have to provide for the transfer of their functions entirely within future primary legislation. I simply say again, particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Warner, that not including these bodies would significantly increase the risk that the underlying ethical provisions of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act and the Human Tissue Act were reopened for debate.
Lord Willis of Knaresborough
Would it not be possible to include a new clause in the Health and Social Care Bill to set up the new medical research agency and leave to consultation and secondary legislation the details that would follow? That would at least give certainty to that organisation and, with a new Bill in the second part of the Parliament, put it into the parliamentary timetable much earlier than envisaged.
Earl Howe
In theory, my noble friend makes a constructive suggestion. We have considered that option and, I am afraid, rejected it on the grounds that the Health and Social Care Bill is big enough as it is, and contains a substantial programme of modernisation. It would be possible to Christmas-tree that Bill almost ad infinitum, and we have decided that that would not be helpful. With the Health and Social Care Bill, we seek to focus on the modernisation agenda, pure and simple. I am sorry to disappoint my noble friend, who makes a perfectly sound point, but I am afraid that we are not going to do that.
As I made clear earlier, I confirm to my noble friend that the CQC will have staff transferred into it. The intention is that expertise in staff and advice will follow the functions. Unfortunately, we cannot be definite about exactly which functions will be transferred to the CQC or elsewhere until after the summer consultation. If, standing here, I were to say exactly how that would work, I would be pre-empting the results of that consultation. I agree on the desirability of having clarity and certainty, and our aim is that there should be more clarity and certainty for HFEA and HTA staff after the consultation.
The noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, asked a number of detailed questions about the effect of our proposals on bodies regulated by the HTA and the way that its functions are performed. The case that she put eloquently was an argument in favour of keeping the HTA’s functions together. I understand her point of view; however, I reassure her that we will consult on the option of keeping the HTA’s functions together. We will not consult simply on one model, let alone pre-empt the results of the consultation.
Baroness Deech
Will that same option in the consultation apply to the HFEA, whereby its functions can be kept together?
Earl Howe
The direction of travel for the HFEA is one that we have mapped out. I am not aware that we are considering consulting on keeping the HFEA together. If I am incorrect about that, I will write to the noble Baroness. I understand why she wishes to press me on the point. However, I have not heard this option put forward, and it was not contained in the arm's-length bodies review.
I can assure the noble Baroness that the consultation will give an opportunity to all those with an interest to express their views on where would be the best place to transfer the functions, and on the merits of keeping functions together where appropriate. I recognise that the expertise of the HTA, and the extent to which this will be carried forward, is a key issue. The consultation that we plan will, as I mentioned, give an opportunity for interested parties to express their views on the point.
The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, asked who would take over the role of competent authority for the EU tissue and organ directives from the HTA. That role will be considered for transfer to other bodies, as with other functions. It involves regulating according to quality and safety standards. We will consult on the most appropriate body for those functions to be transferred to.
My noble friend Lord Willis made clear his view that we should not split research functions. I can tell him that we envisage that the health research agency will cover what is now covered by the approval of research licences. In the context of human embryo research, the legislative requirements that the research is necessary or desirable, and that the use of embryos is necessary, will remain firmly in place. If that consideration includes an assessment of the research technique proposed, it will remain so in future.
The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, asked how we would deal with the devolved Administrations. The intention of the proposals is to reduce both the cost of regulation and the bureaucracy for regulated establishments. It is important that a workable solution is found for the devolved Administrations, while recognising that the subject matter of the legislation is reserved. The Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act extends to the whole of the UK, and the Human Tissue Act extends to England, Wales and Northern Ireland. We hope to agree a way forward with the devolved Administrations that avoids any unnecessary duplication of effort in order to keep costs and bureaucracy for regulated establishments to a minimum. We have had constructive discussions already at official level, and these will continue. The CQC is at present an England-only body. If reserved functions were transferred to the CQC, we would extend its territorial remit in respect of those functions alone.
I will return to where I began. It is surely right that the Government and Parliament should look for opportunities to streamline regulatory mechanisms, as long as this is done in a way that preserves the legal functions, and the ethical underpinning of those functions that Parliament has put in place. The Bill provides us with the means to do that in respect of the HFEA and the HTA. In view of the Government's broader concessions on the Bill, and our intentions to consult widely on the proposed transfers of functions and to protect existing ethical and legislative safeguards, I hope that noble Lords will not press their amendments.
Baroness Thornton
I thank the Minister for another detailed response. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Willis, the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, and my noble friends Lady Warwick and Lord Warner. I counted 17 to 20 questions that the Minister was asked. He gave us a great deal of information, some of which was useful and very interesting. However, I do not think that he answered all the questions.
The Minister raised the issue of us not being convinced. We are not being perversely unconvinced. The problem is that there are still too many unknowns about this part of the Bill. Extensive consultation in the summer, to which the noble Earl has referred on many occasions, is after the decision has been taken and after the powers have been taken.
For example, the Minister was pressed on the concern about registers and databases. His answer was that the decision would be part of the consultation, that they would not be dissipated and that there would be options put in the consultation. That is not a satisfactory answer at this point. The same goes for the impact assessment, which will be carried out in the context that the Government will have already taken the powers to do what they want to do.
On the ethical issues that I raised, the Minister suggested that those would go with whoever it seemed appropriate to be the responsible body. Frankly, at this stage of the Bill, an answer that has “whoever” in it is not satisfactory. There is widespread agreement that the medical research agency proposals sound promising, but that simply underlines the point that we should not proceed with including these two bodies in the Bill at this point.
The Minister has said several times that it is a complex process. We agree, and indeed the noble Lord, Lord Willis, made an extremely good suggestion about one way to simplify the process by using forthcoming legislation. Having been the Minister responsible for several Bills that might have been called Christmas-tree Bills, I am not sure that he does not have a very good point.
That begs the question: what is the hurry? If streamlining can be achieved without powers being taken in this Bill, money can be saved—as several noble Lords have said—without taking such powers, and a much larger discussion will be taking place as we move forward. It seems to me that those points remain outstanding.
At this point in our consideration, I do not think that we have reached a satisfactory and conclusive point in our discussions about the HFEA and HTA. I hope that we can resolve and clarify the remaining and outstanding uncertainties on this issue before Third Reading, and I very much welcome the fact that the Minister has said that he will be responding to certain points. I am sure that he is prepared to continue those discussions and I hope that we can resolve them before Third Reading. Otherwise, I fear that we may have to return to this issue. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.