Deregulation Bill
Lord Skelmersdale Excerpts(9 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Howarth of Breckland (CB)
My Lords, I do not think that the noble Lord lives in the same world that I do, where many people are not digitally savvy. In some rural places in the north, they travel in taxis which appear out of the blue and feel extremely unsafe. I say that before saying to the noble Baroness that I hope this is not a matter of political process. I hope it is something where we think about those things which matter to this Government, which are safety and choice. I know that choice means that you have a range of options—I think that the noble Lord was indicating that we are moving towards that—but should we not wait for the Law Commission’s report, so that issues such as changes in digital technology can be taken on board and that we might recognise that the situation is not the same right across the country?
In many of my roles, I travel all over the UK in taxis. When I choose to travel by a taxi, as a consumer I expect that what I telephone for will turn up. Having worked in the vulnerable adult and child protection area for many years, I know that alternatives might turn up in which I or the child whom I want to be transported might well not be safe. We want to be absolutely sure when we make such a choice—as simple consumers, we have a right—that what we have asked for turns up at the door or we know that it is an alternative so that we can make an alternative choice.
Equally high on the agenda is safety, particularly as we have had so many situations up and down the country, and we await reviews and more inquiries about the protection of children and vulnerable adults. This is a measure where you could really make a difference and listen and look again at these issues, rather than looking at it simply as a deregulation issue.
The Minister said earlier that this legislation is about getting rid of unnecessary burdens. I absolutely agree, having worked in a number of fields where there are such unnecessary burdens, but I do not think that this proposal is either unnecessary or burdensome. It is quite straightforward that if people want to provide a service they should be licensed.
The noble Baroness mentioned the situation in Rotherham, the report on which highlighted significant concerns in relation to taxis. That is quite recent—so the world out there is not safe. We have also had reports that many disabled and elderly people find it very difficult to deal with digital technology. Where I come from, in a large rural area, the only way of travel for some disabled and elderly people to their hospital appointment or somewhere else is by taxi because the bus comes twice a week. It is not a luxury; it is an essential way of travelling. They want to know that the taxi that turns up at their door is a taxi in which they will feel safe. Even if the contractor is safe, we know the anxieties that elderly, disabled and sick people have in terms of looking after themselves. Therefore, they have to be absolutely safe.
I only hope that if we have another child abuse inquiry, or an inquiry where something has happened to a vulnerable adult—God forbid, but that is the world out there—the Government will not find themselves in difficulty because they failed to take note of these voices of caution. It is only caution, because there are ways of thinking through this matter so that we do not reduce the capacity for business but we ensure that people are safe.
Lord Skelmersdale (Con)
My Lords, I regret that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, has not split this amendment into two parts, which it is quite possible to do, because I am fairly certain that a person who has made a booking would not on average ask the taxi company where the taxi was coming from. It may be that they envisage—rather like, I suspect, my noble friend Lord Deben—that, when they book a taxi online, they will get a questionnaire, one of the questions in which will be whether they consent to the taxi coming from another local authority area. That is all very well, but I live in Taunton—not Yorkshire, like the noble Baroness over there.
Lord Skelmersdale
Breckland, I apologise: the west, shall we say.
On occasions, I use taxis. I ring up—sometimes from a train, sometimes from London—and the taxi company says, “Yes, you will have a taxi arriving at 5.03, or whatever the time is, to meet your train”. Even when I get into that taxi, I do not know whether it comes from, say, Exeter, or rather closer in Devon, which is another local authority area. Quite honestly, I do not care. However, I care about the second part of the noble Baroness’s amendment, which says:
“A licensing authority may exercise all its powers over a vehicle licensed”,
in another area. In other words, I want my taxi to be safe: I do not want the wheel to fall off, the bumper to fall off or whatever it happens to be. To that extent, I go along with proposed new subsection (1A) in Amendment 4, but I cannot go along with proposed new subsection (1)(e).
Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Deben, in his stirring defence of the market and its role as a solution to all of the problems that occur, makes a compelling point. However, he also went on to talk about the changes that have happened because of new technology, suggesting that we therefore were safe as a consequence. We are only safer if the company holding and using that information is reputable and operates in a reputable fashion. In fact, you are opening up an enormous area of vulnerability because if somebody, for example, uses a particular firm where all this is electronically recorded, the precise movements are therefore on the record. If that firm is not responsible or, for example, does not maintain proper security, the vulnerable person is made even more vulnerable by that information being available. The noble Lord is of course right, under circumstances in which the company is reputable. There are enormous additional safeguards, because the precise route, the nature of the driver and everything else is on record; perhaps as a consumer, the person concerned has those data. However, that presupposes in the first instance that the company is reputable and has gone through an appropriate process.
Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, as my noble friend Lady Byford said, my Amendment 12 has been grouped with her Amendment 7. Not surprisingly, the scene has moved on in the long period since Committee, when there was a surprising amount of support for the series of amendments in my name which had the effect of a presumption in favour of a diversion or stopping up of a footpath that passes through the curtilage of a residential building, including the gardens and driveways of premises. In other words, those amendments were somewhat more restrictive than that in the name of my noble friend, which I supported at the time and, as noble Lords can see from the Marshalled List, still do.
Since then, strange things have happened and I have had reports of odd decisions made by footpath officers in local authorities, the worst of which was the refusal to annul a recent order dedicating a footpath through someone’s dining room. The council in question refused point blank to change its decision. It may be—I am sure my noble friend could tell me—that the officers are not allowed to do this under current legislation but they most certainly are under this Bill. That is one good reason for the Bill. Another local authority insisted that footpaths going through a farmyard barn, which has been in existence since well before footpaths were regulated, should be shown on the definitive map. It is not unlikely, in the modern age, for barns to be converted into housing, with the full agreement of the local planning inspector. Nobody seems to check whether a footpath goes through the old farmyard and thus becomes, potentially, a major inconvenience to the owner of the barn conversion. There is something wrong, somewhere.
It was for these reasons that I moved my amendments in Committee. Because it was a Grand Committee I could not press them, although at the time I was sure I would have been justified in doing so, such was the support from all around the Committee. My noble friend Lord De Mauley was far from keen on my approach and wished to stick to the formula in the Bill—namely, the right for the householder to apply to the local authority and, if necessary, appeal to the Secretary of State. This was backed up by a meeting which he kindly hosted shortly after Christmas, to which my noble friend Lady Byford has already referred. At that meeting, it was explained that the scheme in the Bill would take time to bed down among local authorities and the rank and file green lobby. The department wanted time for this to happen, for the curious reason that the consultation on the agreement of the footpaths working group had not gone wide enough. One rather wonders why the working group existed in the first place, but it did and it agreed changes to the Bill which the Government have been so reluctant to approve that they just have not done it.
I hope that I am not taking my noble friend Lady Byford’s name in vain when I say that both she and I are suspicious as to whether the scheme in the Bill, backed up by guidance to local authorities, simply will not work, however thorough the consultation is. Amendment 7, to which I have put my name, asks, as my noble friend said, for the department to produce a report on whether the scheme has actually worked or not after two years. I have to say that I consider the amendment to be very mild, even though it presumes that legislation will follow if the report is negative, although it does not say so. That, of course, means primary legislation, and it will be some time before that becomes law, even if it gets approval from the business managers.
Amendment 12 allows the Secretary of State a fall-back position, whereby, if the proposals in the Bill are not followed by local authorities, the Secretary of State can lay regulations to make rules according to which a local authority shall make decisions regarding the scheme. This will have two distinct advantages. First, it will reduce the number of appeals, which are likely to be much higher than the department currently envisages, because I suspect that most aggrieved applicants will appeal against the local authority decision on the basis that the latter has not followed the guidance. At the same time, it will cut out vexatious appeals because everyone will know what the rules are. In the event that this amendment finds favour with your Lordships, it would be necessary to have a further one at Third Reading specifying that the regulations will be by affirmative instrument.
Returning to my basic point, it is quite wrong for footpaths to oppress home owners by taking away the enjoyment of their close property and, to that extent, the Bill, imperfect as it is, may help.
Earl Cathcart (Con)
My Lords, I spoke in Committee in support of the amendments in the name of my noble friend and I will do so again today.
I have three points. First, if you have a public right of way through your garden, you have lost your security, safety and privacy. Anyone can walk through your garden at any time of day or night. Their dogs may run loose, frightening your children, fouling your garden, chasing your pets and even killing your chickens or cats, but there is little or nothing you can do about it. You may be subject to theft or vandalism. Secondly, it costs several thousand pounds to divert a path, but it costs absolutely nothing to object to it. This increases the cost to the applicant dramatically, often beyond their reach. We should be trying to make it easier for the applicant. Thirdly, as my noble friend Lady Byford mentioned, the law as it currently stands does not allow home owners to apply for permission for gates or stiles. Without these, you cannot allow your pets to be left, or allow your children to play, unattended in your garden. This needs changing.
My honourable friend Tom Brake, speaking for the Government at Third Reading of this Bill, said:
“The Government acknowledge that for householders, farmers and others, an intrusive footpath can have a substantial impact on their quality of life or on their ability to run a business. We understand that while this is not a widespread problem, where it occurs it can cause severe difficulties, and in a significant number of cases people have been put through years of considerable inconvenience and stress”.—[Official Report, Commons, 23/6/14; col. 77.]
I could not agree more. I understand that, when the Bill was going through the other place, the Government were going to propose an amendment to rectify this but for some reason they did not. This House has a perfect opportunity to put that right.
My noble friend Lady Byford has also mentioned the concern that there is no presumption that the paths will be diverted away from gardens, houses and businesses. There should be. The Government say that there is guidance on this, but it is only guidance. Some councils comply with it, but too many do not. The answer is for the Government to put something in the Bill, and I hope that my noble friend will.
Lord De Mauley
I understand my noble friend’s point, but I hope he would be prepared to give the provisions in the Bill a chance. They are actually quite far reaching. With great respect to my noble friends, who have raised some important points, we are talking here about points which, in their eyes, would make yet further improvements. I think my noble friends acknowledged in their speeches today that there are already some good, positive changes in this Bill. I hope my noble friend would accept that.
Moreover, under the right to apply provisions, the Secretary of State will be the confirming authority for all disputed orders. The Government will therefore be in a prime position to promote implementation of the revised policy set out in the guidance by setting a clear precedent with any cases that come before the Secretary of State. In addition, the Government will work with rights of way officers, through their professional organisations, actively to promote to local authorities the existing guidance on diversion or extinguishment of rights of way which pass through gardens, farmyards or commercial premises.
To return to the amendment, the existing legislation on extinguishments and diversions, in Sections 118 and 119 of the Highways Act 1980, already sets out rules, which Parliament has debated and agreed, under which local authorities make decisions on applications to divert or extinguish rights of way. My noble friend’s proposed regulation-making power would, in effect, be a power to make new rules by delegated legislation and therefore without full parliamentary scrutiny. I suggest that it is highly unlikely that we would get stakeholder agreement to such a measure, knowing that this was the purpose behind the amendment.
Lord Skelmersdale
Will my noble friend give way? I thought, or at least I hoped, that I had made it quite clear that, if my noble friend accepted my amendment—which, clearly, he is not going to—it would be necessary to have a Third Reading amendment to make these regulations by affirmative order. In that case, of course, they would have parliamentary scrutiny.
Lord De Mauley
My noble friend makes a fair point.
It has been clear throughout the Bill’s passage that Parliament agrees with our view that that the consensus should be supported by keeping the rights of way package as it stands. I spoke to the stakeholder working group at its latest meeting and learnt at first hand that its overriding aim is to get the package implemented intact. We are determined that the consensus should not be put at risk by adding measures that have not been discussed with stakeholders and, of course, not consulted on.
Amendment 7, tabled by my noble friend Lady Byford, is intended to ensure that the Government review the success or otherwise of these measures after their implementation. That is an absolutely laudable aim and one that, in any event, would be a matter of good practice. However, although we agree with the aim of evaluating the effectiveness of the right to apply and associated guidance, I hope that my noble friend will agree that it would not be appropriate to use a deregulatory Bill to impose on the Government the statutory burden of making a formal report. That would run contrary to the aims of the Bill.
In the other place, the Government have already put on record that the stakeholder working group’s advice will be sought on the constitution of a review panel to advise on how well the reforms are working and whether any further measures need to be taken before the cut-off date. I am happy to put on record now that we will ensure that any arrangements to review the rights of way reforms will include an assessment, within two years of implementation of the reforms package, of how effective the right to apply provisions and the accompanying guidance have proved in getting local authorities to respond positively to applications for public path extinguishment or diversion orders.
The proposed assessment will include an opportunity for people to provide evidence to the stakeholder working group either through wider consultation outside the group or a call for evidence. The assessment will send a message to authorities that the Government are determined that the new policy should work and that if guidance does not bring about sufficient change, we will consider introducing further measures.
My noble friend Lady Byford returned to the issue that we discussed in Committee about the authorisation of gates. We recognise that an amendment to extend the powers to authorise gates and similar structures could be helpful to people with a right of way going through their premises or garden. The stakeholder working group discussed this at some length. While there was agreement about the proposal in principle, the group has not yet arrived at a formulation on which it could agree. Those measures have not, unlike the rest of the package, been widely consulted on and are therefore not necessarily agreed by wider stakeholders, whose views we also have to consider.
Concerns have been expressed by users of rights of way about the possible proliferation of gates and other structures across rights of way. Particular concern has been raised with me by equestrian groups in the stakeholder working group that I attended. They are worried about riders with disabilities who may not be able to dismount or who have difficulties in opening and closing gates without risk of injury to themselves or their horse. Since the House of Lords Committee stage of the Bill I have received correspondence expressing concern about the suggestion that the powers of local authorities to authorise gates should be further extended beyond those changes already being introduced by Clause 24.
My noble friend also raised the point about the right to apply not providing a presumption that paths will be diverted away from gardens, houses and businesses. We have covered that quite extensively. The guidance agreed by the stakeholder working group introduces a presumption that paths will be diverted away from houses and businesses. We believe that the guidance, combined with the right to apply, will have the desired effect. My noble friend also asked whether there should not be a time limit on making claims based on long use. The stakeholder working group has not been able to reach an agreement on that, but it will continue to keep it under review.
On that basis, I hope that my noble friend will withdraw her amendment.
Lord Cameron of Dillington (CB)
My Lords, I have added my name to Amendment 17. I declare an interest as a farmer in Somerset with rights of way on my land. Like the Minister, I am a great enjoyer of our rights of way across the country.
I will not repeat all I said in Committee about this being a deregulatory amendment, but it does have the potential dramatically to reduce the administrative work of the local highway authority while greatly simplifying the law and the lives of others. It also has the potential to reduce the onerous duty to repair the surfaces of all highways on the part of local highways authorities, which we know are extremely strapped for cash at the moment. The fact that most local highway authorities pay virtually no attention at all to their duty of repair on anything less than an adopted highway is no excuse for us not to try to minimise their responsibilities.
Anyone who has seen pictures of green lanes from all around the country, particularly the pictures of green lanes in the Lake District National Park that have been circulated recently, will be in no doubt that regular motorised traffic on those green lanes is not compatible with fair enjoyment of the countryside by walkers, bicyclists and riders. Something has to be done and the wrongful assumption that motorised vehicles automatically have rights on all those green lanes needs to be rejected. If they have rights, I and others believe that it is their responsibility to prove them.
I recognise that the Minister proposes the setting up of a motor vehicle working group in response to the amendment. I am sure that is not a way of pushing the whole issue into the long grass. I have every expectation that he will respond favourably to the amendment or at least its intent. I also realise that we have to tread softly, softly on this matter. All I would say is that this long-lasting sore on the face of responsible access to the countryside has to be firmly gripped, and soon; or, as the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, said, come 2026, which is just 11 years away, we will still find ourselves floundering around in the mud, both literally and metaphorically—literally on the ground and metaphorically, administratively in county halls—with no greater clarity than today. Defra has already acknowledged that the 2026 cut-off date cannot be met under the current circumstances—it is 11 years off and it cannot be met—due to the number of green lanes and the lengthy processes involved. We have to find a better way forward and this amendment, or something like it, is a very reasonable way of achieving that.
Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, I understand the rationale behind what the two noble Lords have said on the amendment but I would add a slightly cautionary note. Although we all enjoy walking on footpaths and we get irritated by bicycles, quad bikes, Land Rovers, et cetera, on paths that are not BOATs, there are those, such as disabled people, who are able to enjoy such footpaths only through the use of some sort of propelled vehicle. Although I readily understand that there is a need for control, I do not believe that it should be absolute and I look forward very much to listening to what my noble friend the Minister has to say on the working group that is proposed.
Lord Judd (Lab)
My Lords, I very strongly support Amendment 17. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, for putting it forward. It is constructive, public-spirited, responsible and sensible—just like the old Bradshaw’s timetables.
There is one caveat I want to make. There is an issue that we all have to face. Those of us who are able to enjoy remote and attractive areas must remember that there are very many people for whom this is not a practical possibility because of their physical condition. We all need to get our minds round the issue of how we can improve access for such people so that they are able to share in something that we all regard as precious. Of course, that has to be done by consultation and, if necessary, appropriate legislation and regulations, but it should be done in a sensible way, with the full co-operation and backing of the authorities that are responsible for a particular piece of land.
Having said that, the noble Lord put it in very moderate language but what he revealed is actually a nightmare. At times it can be described only as vandalism—if it were to happen in an urban area, there would be an outcry—despoiling and ruining decent, attractive countryside and making a hell for some people who are trying to enjoy that countryside in a quiet and peaceful way. In fact it can be quite a frightening experience for those who may be able—I count myself among those now—to just about make those areas, but who may have certain disabilities and so on which make them feel vulnerable. That is not least the case for those with loss of hearing, for whom the sudden noise and disturbance of these vehicles can be an unpleasant experience.
The issue is mainly about what is being done to places of special significance, scenically and in other ways. It is also about this “couldn’t care less” attitude—that it is left to somebody else to deal with and clear up, which is utterly selfish as well as being vandalism. We should all recognise that, and wish godspeed to the noble Lord’s amendment, because it is vital. I should of course declare an interest as patron and former president of Friends of the Lake District, and as vice-president of the Campaign for National Parks, but I assure you that the remarks I have made this evening come from the heart in terms of being a resident of one of the areas that has quite a number of beautiful things that can so easily be ruined and destroyed.
Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, would my noble friend accept another thought? As she said, she is a farmer but not a farmer on—for example—the Quantocks, or Exmoor, or further north in Cumbria like the noble Lord, Lord Judd, although I believe he is not a farmer; none the less he is a resident. They have to get around their land on some sort of vehicle, whether it is a tractor or a quad bike.
Baroness Byford
Indeed. I am so sorry I did not include quad bikes; they are a normal sort of motor vehicle that is essential to farming in many areas. We do not happen to have one on our farm, but we do not have the sort of access being debated this afternoon. My noble friend is quite right to reflect on how important that access is.
Deregulation Bill
Lord Skelmersdale Excerpts(10 years ago)
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Lord De Mauley
My Lords, the Clean Air Act, which was first introduced to combat the smogs of the 1950s, designates smoke control areas within which it is an offence to emit smoke unless using authorised fuels and/or exempted appliances. Clause 16 amends the procedure by which the Secretary of State specifies authorised fuels and exempted fireplaces. They are currently specified by way of six-monthly statutory instruments, as the noble Lord explained. The clause will enable the Secretary of State to specify the products by publication of a list on the Defra smoke control web pages instead. The list will be published on a monthly basis and therefore reduce the delay that businesses and consumers currently face when new products are brought on to the market. The Act provides local authorities with powers to designate smoke control areas, within which it is an offence if smoke is emitted from a building’s chimney unless an authorised fuel or exempt appliance is being used. It is also an offence under the Act to acquire or sell an unauthorised fuel for use in a smoke control area.
The Secretary of State currently has the power under the Clean Air Act 1993 to exempt fireplaces by order and to authorise fuels by regulations, if she is satisfied that such products can be used without producing any smoke or a substantial quantity of smoke. Following assessment by technical experts to ensure compliance with eligibility criteria, the authorised fuels and exempt appliances are specified in statutory instruments which are made every six months. Under the current system, manufacturers face a delay of up to eight months between that assessment and bringing new fuels and fireplaces on to the market because they have to wait for that legislation to be made.
In answer to the noble Lord’s question, I confirm that the amendment made by this clause will not change the technical standards that products have to meet to be specified. Applicants will still be required to prove via testing that their products are capable of being used without producing any—or any substantial—quantity of smoke, thus keeping the inherent safeguards for air quality. The technical experts who currently provide advice with regard to the statutory instruments will continue to assess test results and provide recommendations to government with regard to the suitability of products for use in smoke control areas.
The details of specified products in the legislation are highly technical. The authorised fuel schedules are defined in technical terms covering matters such as the composition of the fuels, the manufacturing process, the shape of the fuels and their weight and sulphur content. Similarly, the exempted fireplaces schedules contain highly technical conditions of exemption relating to how individual fireplaces should be used and what fuels should be used in them to qualify for exemption.
It is worth noting that my department is not aware of the smoke control statutory instruments, which have been issued since 1957 and biannually since 1970, having been debated in Parliament on any occasion. The lists published on the internet will be subject to defined and robust audit procedures to ensure the accuracy of the data entered. These will include checks being undertaken and the lists being signed off by senior, responsible Defra staff. The process will enable specified product lists to be updated on a monthly basis.
In addition to including the same level of detail as the statutory instruments, the lists of specified products on the internet will also indicate the dates of new product specifications and of any variations or withdrawals. This is an improvement on the current system, where it would be necessary to compare lengthy SIs for consumers and local authorities to identify any changes. Therefore, there is an element of safeguarding for consumers as it will ensure that there is legal certainty with respect to which products may or may not be used at any given time. Members of the public without access to the internet will be able to request paper copies of the lists from my department.
The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee initially expressed concern over the move from a legislative to an administrative process. However, I understand that it now finds the explanation provided by the Government with regard to the procedures for specifying products and the levels of control that will be in place sufficiently compelling in favour of the amendment—that is, the amendment made by the clause rather than the noble Lord’s amendment. It has, however, requested assurance that adequate steps will be taken to ensure that persons who have been lawfully using specified products do not end up inadvertently committing offences as a result of specifications being withdrawn. The Government would not want to create a situation in which people could inadvertently end up being in breach of the law.
A decision to withdraw an approval may take place only if evidence demonstrating that a product is not eligible for use in a smoke control area comes to light. Defra has advised that it is not aware of any specified products ever having been removed from the lists previously. Based on this information, while it is possible that a specified product may need to be withdrawn, it would be highly unusual. Given what I have said, I hope that the noble Lord will agree to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Skelmersdale (Con)
My Lords, before the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, does that, and of course he will, perhaps I may say that for more than 10 years in your Lordships’ House I was a member of the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, although I am not now. With the volume of statutory instruments that goes through that committee, any diminution of those orders is obviously a good thing. Even though, until now, no complaints have been made about individual smokeless fuels or individual smokeless fuel burners, that does not mean that there never will be. In a parliamentary setting—in other words, if the order is to continue—that gives the opportunity for any Member of either House to speak to the order, whether it is an affirmative or a negative. My noble friend did not say which it was and, for the purposes of my argument, it does not particularly matter. When we have this list system, how can anyone, whether a member of the public or a Member of either House, question, for example, a new smokeless fuel?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, the answer to that is that the inclusion in the published list will be information that the public need. They certainly can contact my department. Ultimately, it would remain subject to judicial review if it ever needed to come to that. The information will be public. All that will happen is that we will streamline the process so as not to clog up my noble friend’s committee.
Baroness Trumpington (Con)
My Lords, I do not know whether any of the Committee realise that they are looking at the face of history. All those years ago, I took the Shops Act entirely through the House, the long and the short of it. I have to say that I have listened with extreme interest to the speeches that I have heard today. This issue has come up again at what I would have thought was rather an inappropriate time. I agree with the previous two speakers: this goes against my party’s past. I do not know how their minds work now but I agree with what they say. The Shops Act has been of great benefit to a lot of workers and owners, and has provided a lot of pleasure to a lot of people. It is a pity to start mucking about with something that has worked so well for so long; it is unnecessary, and if there were a vote I would vote against it.
Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, I was in the happy position, as a humble Back-Bencher, of listening to my noble friend on the Front Bench taking that Act through, and I think she would agree that many of the arguments that we heard then have been repeated today by the noble Lords, Lord Christopher and Lord Rooker, and the right reverend Prelate, and she managed to satisfy them then. It is quite clear to me that what goes around comes around, and that today history—to an extent, anyway—is repeating itself.
As I said, 20-odd years ago I supported many of the things in this Bill, but I also supported an amendment similar to that of my noble friend Lord Borwick. I had better make the same declaration of non-interest as I did then: although a horticulturalist by training and the director of a mail-order firm in the industry, I have never had anything to do with garden centres other than as a student when I spent three weeks weeding plant pots. We do not even sell to garden centres, so to that extent I have no interest.
The reason why I supported an amendment then, and now, is that I am told by the Horticultural Traders Association that, in the past 20 years, by not allowing garden centres to be totally deregulated, my industry, which employs 28,400 people and contributes £9 billion to the UK economy, has missed out on a vast earning capacity that today amounts to £75 million, which, by virtue of the VAT element of such sales, means a loss of £15 million annually to the Exchequer. At a time when necessary cuts are made every day to public services, I have no doubt that another £15 million would come in very handy.
Tempting though it is, I will not repeat the facts that my noble friend stated in moving his amendment, but I will briefly outline what happened some 20 years ago. The amendment that I supported, and which was passed by your Lordships’ House, was to totally deregulate both garden centres and DIY shops. The Members of another place produced a very short reason for disagreeing with your Lordships: they did not consider it,
“desirable to exempt shops of the kind described in the amendment from restrictions on Sunday opening”.
It is clear from rereading Commons Hansard that MPs of those days believed that the amendment went too far by including shops that sold,
“materials and tools suitable for use in the construction, maintenance, repair or decoration of buildings”.—[Official Report, 30/6/94; col. 926.]
So Lord Hacking, who moved the original amendment, tabled another applying only to,
“trees, shrubs, plants, bulbs or seeds”,
or, “garden supplies or equipment”.
In the debate, the House again divided and the amendment was defeated, I believe for the following reasons: first, that on that day your Lordships had lost the opportunity for ping-pong; and secondly, that shops selling those products also—as the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, just pointed out just—sell a whole range of other products, such as books, furniture and paint, to name but a few. It would have been an enormous job for local authority inspectors to ascertain whether the shop in question was “wholly or mainly”, to use the words in the Act, selling the products in question.
As I said, all that was 20 years ago. Membership of your Lordships’ House has changed drastically in that time and, after several general elections, so has the composition of another place. It is certainly time to ask the Commons once again. I hope that my noble friend will pursue this through to Report. He may well be successful in this House, but I would caution him quite seriously, as noble Lords opposite have done, not to use such a broad term as garden centres. To my mind, the term needs to be refined.
While I am on my feet, I have are two things that I should like to pick up. First, I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Christopher, appreciated that the words “wholly or mainly” are actually in the Act, so will cover such exemptions. I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, that, under the Act, shops are allowed to open for only six hours between the hours of 10 am and 6 pm. If I were a gardener, it is quite likely that I would like to go and buy my bulbs, seeds or whatever at 8.30 am or 9 am on a Sunday. That is one of the reasons why deregulation should at the very least be considered in this area.
Lord Judd (Lab)
My Lords, this has been an interesting debate. One of the things that strikes me forcefully is that the existing legislation was introduced in the context of a lot of controversy, argument and differing points of view. It has prevailed, to good effect, for a good number of years now, and those who crafted the Bill, introduced it and took it through the House should be commended. It represents the fruitful outcome of consensus-building in an open democracy at its best. We should be very wary of beginning to unpick that consensus and agreement, which involved a lot of hard work, by seemingly innocent little steps in this direction or that. The fact is that the proposed amendment is a breach in the existing law and the principles and understanding that lie behind it.
My second point refers back to my noble friend Lord Christopher. In his significant office and responsibilities, Vincent Cable used very specific words. At the very least, I would expect from the Government in their reply to this debate, in words of one syllable, a statement about whether they are now repudiating the work and undertaking of Vincent Cable on whether coalition policy applies in this sphere. It is quite simple: a Secretary of State has given a solemn and firm undertaking and this Bill runs against that undertaking. From that standpoint, we need a very specific and clear response from the Government in their reply.
For all sorts of reasons, I find myself in line with the thoughts of the right reverend Prelate. But you do not have to come from his position, or indeed mine, to see the social significance of the prevailing legislation. We live in a society that is becoming increasingly boring in the sense that everything is the same all the time and there is a feeling of playing to the lowest common denominator all the time. In the richness of life, the principle of contrast between the six days and the seventh day is very important, whether you are religious or not. It introduces a rhythm into life, which is terribly important for the fulfilment of people psychologically as well as physically.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, my noble friend’s amendment would relax restrictions on garden centres by adding them to the list of retailers exempted from the Sunday trading regulations. At present, they can already open for six continuous hours between 10 am and 6 pm. When my wife told me that she wanted a wheelbarrow on Sunday, despite the burdens of office, I was able to acquire one at my local garden centre within that six-hour window and attend church on Sunday morning. This measure would mean that garden centres could open at any time on a Sunday and open on Easter Sunday, from which they are currently prohibited.
Having thought about this carefully, the Government believe, in line with the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, the right reverend Prelate and my noble friend Lady Trumpington, among others—although I could not have put it as eloquently as they did— that the current Sunday trading laws represent a reasonable balance between those who wish to see more opportunity to shop in and sell from large shops on a Sunday, and those who would like to see further restrictions.
Those advancing the case for further liberalisation of the Sunday trading laws claim that there will be worthwhile economic benefits, including an increase in revenue for garden centres. However, as a matter of interest, the evidence to date is not entirely compelling. The ONS’s assessment of the liberalisation during the Olympics found no significant growth associated with the longer opening hours during the event. Instead, sales tended to be spread out further over the additional opening hours. Likewise, with this proposed liberalisation, customers may not end up spending more but merely spreading their spending over a longer period.
As my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale mentioned, the industry has talked of a potential £75 million increase in revenue but no details on the increased costs of extended opening have so far been forthcoming. As I have just mentioned, we do, however, have the useful example of the measures taken during the London Olympics. The Government suspended the Sunday trading laws during the Olympics in 2012 so that retailers could take advantage of the unique opportunity that the Games presented. The suspension of the law applied only to the specified period, from 22 July to 9 September 2012. There was an increase in footfall in London but this may merely have reflected increased visitor numbers to the country. An evaluation of the suspension of hours during the Olympics found that the overall sales increases seem to have been modest for large retailers, but that there was in fact a loss of business for the smaller retailers.
Lord Skelmersdale
Perhaps I may be allowed to interrupt my noble friend briefly. During the Olympics, there were of course many people up and down the country watching them on television and many people in the Olympic park who were watching the events live. Does my noble friend not think that that could be a reason for there being no real, material difference in sales during the relaxation which he was talking about?
Lord De Mauley
I am sure that my noble friend has a point and that there were complex factors in several directions. I merely state what happened because it is a recent example of a relaxation of the Sunday trading laws and it may be interesting for noble Lords to hear it.
My noble friend Lord Trenchard asked about the impact on smaller shops at that time. He may be interested to know that the Association of Convenience Stores reported a reduction of as much as 20% in sales over the eight-week Olympic period, and a 30% reduction in footfall. However, I acknowledge what my noble friend has said. During the peak month of August 2012, non-seasonally adjusted national data show that the amount being bought decreased by 2.4%, compared with that July. Over the same period, large stores saw a fall of 3.1% and small stores one of 0.6%. This more than outweighed the benefits to larger London-based competitors, which were the prime beneficiaries. I hope the Committee will understand that such results are at odds with the Government’s Small Business Strategy.
It is sometimes argued that the relaxation of constraints on large shops will provide benefits to their smaller brethren by bringing people into the town or shopping centre but most garden centres—or most that I have been to, anyway—are located away from other retail centres. They are out of the centres of towns, so that argument does not apply to them. It is not clear what makes garden centres a special case in the same way as those currently included on the exemption list. Despite what my noble friend Lord Trenchard said, it is not as though people will have a sudden medical need to visit a garden centre, as they might have with, for example, a pharmacy.
Moreover, garden centres have increasingly diversified their products, as the noble Lord, Lord Christopher, said. Many will now sell furniture, pets, food, books, toys and stationery. As such, garden centres are in direct competition with other large stores, which are still constrained by the Sunday trading rules and it would be difficult to justify giving them preferential treatment, particularly so at a time when we are looking at ways to regenerate local high streets. Additionally, there is no obvious mood for change among the public. In a recent study, 77% were found to be happy with the existing rules while, of those who were in favour of change, 56% wanted further restrictions rather than liberalisation.
This exemption would also enable garden centres to open on Easter Sunday. This would be contentious for those who see Easter Day as a highly important religious day, when families should be free to be together. Garden centres say that this is the middle of their busiest period. However, they are already able to open as they wish on three of the four days over that bank holiday weekend. Some smaller family-run garden centres welcome the opportunity to close and to give staff the day off on Easter Day in the knowledge that none of their competitors will be open. Removing that constraint might distort the playing field in favour of bigger national garden centre networks. Consumer spending is such that longer opening hours are unlikely to achieve additional sales.
I am aware of the various campaigns on Sunday trading and I will continue to monitor the response of the public and the market, but we see no significant change in the situation that might suggest the need to reconsider Sunday trading in relation to garden centres or more broadly. I hope that is clear enough to the noble Lord, Lord Judd. On that basis I hope my noble friend will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Skelmersdale
“Presumed extinguishment of intrusive byways open to all traffic in limited circumstances
In section 116 of the Highways Act 1980 (power of magistrates’ court to authorise stopping up or diversion of highway), after subsection (1) insert—“(1A) Where a byway open to all traffic passes through the curtilage of a residential dwelling including the gardens and driveways of the premises it is presumed that diversion of the highway so that it does not so pass will make the path more commodious and that the highway is unnecessary unless the court is satisfied that—
(a) the privacy, safety or security of the premises are not adversely affected by the existence or use of the path; or(b) the path or way provides access to a vital local service or amenity not otherwise reasonably accessible.(1B) In exercising the powers under this section, the authority and the court shall have particular regard to the presumption that a byway open to all traffic should not pass through the curtilage of residential premises including the gardens and driveways of the premises.
(1C) A “byway open to all traffic” means a highway over which the public have a right of way for vehicular and all other kinds of traffic, but which is used mainly for the purposes for which footpaths and bridleways are so used.””
Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, in moving this amendment, I will also speak to my other amendments and most of those of my noble friend Lady Byford, which encapsulate mine with major additions. I apologise, therefore, for my long-windedness in seeking to add three new clauses to the Bill. The trouble is that three sections of the Highways Act 1980 are involved.
England has around 18,000 miles of rights of way, which these days are used mostly for recreational purposes. A minority of these pass through gardens. Last weekend, I was walking in Dorset and just before the Recess I was walking on the Quantock Hills in Somerset. Both these walks, as it happens, were through farms and on common land. In a later amendment, I will have something to say about common land.
The Somerset walk took me past a farm in which it would be quite easy to look into the windows had I so wanted. Most people are uncomfortable walking through someone’s garden or alongside a house in the country. However, there is, alas, a minority of walkers who are not so respectful of other people’s property and it means that anyone with a right of way through their property has no right to privacy, security or safety. Young children cannot be allowed to play in their own garden unaccompanied; nor can family pets be allowed to roam freely. There is not even a legal right to have a gate, which is something that I hope we can deal with in a later amendment to the Bill.
In essence, the family home cannot be used as a family home as the Committee would understand it. This means that, as we continue to develop as a country, the situation gets worse for those afflicted. They have no legal defence against theft or vandalism. Criminals can legally wander around to assess a property for burglary and come back to isolated properties when they are unattended. There are numerous examples of walkers peering through the window at those sitting down for a family lunch, and of unleashed dogs running around a domestic garden and chasing resident dogs, killing chickens, ducks, or cats, defecating and so forth. Sunbathing in the garden, having lunch on the patio or a child’s birthday party take on totally different dimensions in these circumstances. Currently, the homeowner has no legal right to apply for a diversion or extinguishment and lives in a permanent trap. The stress and the financial hardship involved in employing specialist lawyers, only to learn that one has virtually no legal rights, have led to illness, mental breakdowns and at least two suicides. The financial resources required to get expert legal help runs beyond most ordinary people’s means and makes justice unaffordable.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, this has been a full and interesting debate and I am grateful to my noble friends who have moved amendments and to all noble Lords who have spoken to them. I will begin with Amendments 14 to 16, in the name of my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale. The rights of way reforms package, of which Clauses 21 to 27 will form the basis, is founded on the recommendations of the independently chaired stakeholder working group on unrecorded rights of way. That group, as I explained earlier, consists of 15 members: five from each of local authorities, landowners and rights of way users. The group was founded in 2008 with a remit to develop a package of reforms to facilitate completion of the definitive map and statement—the local authority’s legal record of public rights of way. This is a daunting task on a topic where views are highly polarised, but it is a task in which they succeeded.
Of key significance is the fact that the group has unanimously agreed the key proposal that the 2026 cut-off date—after which it will no longer be possible to record pre-1949 rights of way—should be implemented. However, this is subject to the caveat of what my noble friend Lady Parminter described as a finely balanced package of reforms being implemented as it stands and not being tampered with or cherry-picked.
My noble friend’s amendment seeks to address the issue of intrusive public rights of way. This is an issue to which the Government have been giving careful consideration in discussion with the rights of way stakeholder working group and members of the Intrusive Footpaths campaign. The Government acknowledge my noble friend’s point that for householders and farmers an intrusive footpath can have a substantial impact on their quality of life or on their ability to run a business, and several noble Lords have spoken about that. It can cause severe difficulties and there are a significant number of cases where people have been through years of considerable inconvenience and stress. We recognise that there is a need to find an acceptable solution. That is why the Government have worked with the stakeholder working group to include measures in the rights of way reforms package that will make a significant difference to the way that requests for diversions and extinguishments of rights of way will be dealt with by local authorities. I am confident that they will help to alleviate the difficulties experienced by those affected.
The Bill proposes to implement the right-to-apply provisions introduced by the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000. These provisions give landowners the right to apply for diversion or extinguishment of a right of way. Through clauses in the Bill we are amending them in such a way as to enable people with rights of way through their gardens to make applications. These provisions will come into force, along with the rest of the reforms package, when all the elements of the package are in place. We are working towards implementation by April 2016. With the right-to-apply provisions in place, local authorities will no longer be able to ignore requests for rights of way to be moved or extinguished, or to dismiss them out of hand. They will be obliged either to make an order or to be prepared to justify their reasons for not doing so. There is also—
Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, before my noble friend leaves that point, can he explain why the right to apply automatically implies the right for the local authorities to consider? I just cannot see it.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I was some way from leaving that point. I will get there in a moment. There is also the question of whether any orders made would be confirmed. The right to apply provisions will be supplemented by guidance that will effectively act as a presumption to divert or extinguish public rights of way that pass through the curtilage of family homes where privacy, safety or security are a problem.
Under the right to apply provisions, any appeal made by an applicant, whether it is because the local authority has refused an application or because it has failed to confirm a diversion order it has made, will be submitted to the Secretary of State for a decision. The Government will therefore be in a prime position to promote implementation of the revised policy set out in the guidance by setting a clear precedent in those decisions. A draft of the guidance has been deposited in the Library of your Lordships’ House. We recognise that it needs further refinement, which is why it remains open for comment.
The rights of way reforms will also give local authorities more scope to deal with objections to orders themselves rather than having to submit every single opposed order to the Secretary of State as at present. The combined effect of these provisions will offer the prospect of real improvement for those people experiencing problems with a public right of way across their property. We want to evaluate how the measures work out in practice before seeking to add to the legislative burden.
The issue of intrusive public rights of way is very emotive. I understand why it arouses strong feelings and why those affected want something done. While putting a presumption on the face of the Act might seem desirable, the new clauses would create regulation where it is likely to prove unnecessary and create more problems than it resolves. The clauses proposed by my noble friend would impose a duty on each local authority to divert or extinguish every right of way that passes through the curtilage of a residential dwelling unless they are satisfied that the privacy, safety or security of the premises are not adversely affected by the right of way and extinguishing it would not remove access to a vital local service or amenity not otherwise reasonably accessible.
Carrying out a survey to identify rights of way that fulfil these criteria would place a significant new burden on local authorities. The proposed clauses would also have the effect of removing the tests in current legislation that ensure that the public interest in the right of way is safeguarded where that right of way passes through the curtilage of a residential dwelling. My concern is that the proposed new clauses do not strike the right balance between public and private interests, which is critical to the agreement reached over the guidance by the stakeholder working group. I invite your Lordships to agree that legislative solutions imposed without a consensus or consultation could result in more disputes and legal challenges.
As the draft guidance on diversions and extinguishments has been developed by the stakeholder working group, it is founded on a strong stakeholder consensus, which means that it is likely to be complied with. We firmly believe that solutions based on agreement and mutual interest result in less conflict, as several noble Lords have said, and less need for enforcement in the long run. The stakeholder working group consensus is the result of many years of hard work and difficult discussions between stakeholders who have commendably agreed to put their differences to one side and work towards solutions that are for the common good. We should not risk putting all that progress in jeopardy by adopting measures that are not founded on that agreement. These proposed new clauses would impose a significant new burden on local authorities and all but remove the current public interest tests.
My noble friend Lord Skelmersdale questioned the right to apply and whether the guidance would have the intended effect. There is pretty clear agreement among stakeholders that the major difficulty for landowners is in getting local authorities to make a diversion or extinguishment order in the first place. Our plans to implement and extend the scope of the right-to-apply provisions for such orders will overcome this, because landowners will be able formally to apply and appeal if the authority refuses to make an order or fails to respond.
The other hurdle is getting orders confirmed. However, according to Ramblers, which keeps accurate records of these matters, of the slightly in excess of 1,200 diversion orders which have reached a conclusion in the last three years, 94% did not attract any objections. Of the remaining 6%, less than 1% were not confirmed following submission to the Secretary of State. I am not saying that 100% of proposed diversions should necessarily go through. Clearly, that would depend on the proposal’s merits. However, given those statistics we believe that the combination of the right-to-apply provisions and the guidance will have the desired effect and that we should not rush to legislate before seeing how these measures work out in practice.
My noble friend Lord Skelmersdale asked why a landowner should have to meet the entire cost of a diversion and I understand his concerns. Where the diversion or removal of an existing right of way is for the benefit of the property owner rather than for the public, I think it is not unreasonable that the property owner should meet the cost. Authorities will not be able to recover more than the actual costs and would have to make clear exactly what was covered by those costs. In addition, as part of the rights of way reforms package, we will be introducing a framework within which local authorities will be required to make it clear to landowners what each stage of the process will cost and what they will be getting for that money.
We expect the costs of making alterations to public rights of way to reduce as a result of the reforms package as a whole, specifically through the following measures: significantly reducing the cost of publicising orders; giving local authorities more discretion to disregard spurious or irrelevant objections; making the exchange of written representations the default for dealing with opposed orders, rather than a public inquiry; and encouraging local authorities to enable landowners to make their own arrangements for undertaking some of the work normally undertaken by the local authority.
My noble friend also asked about the likely average costs to a landowner of diverting or extinguishing a right of way. Those costs will of course vary considerably across the country. They will depend on whether the relevant order is objected to and whether the matter goes to a public inquiry. Information we have gathered through our work gives us an estimated average cost, over a range of circumstances, for making and implementing a legal order to divert or extinguish a public right of way. The least cost is where an order is unopposed or written representations are used to deal with any objections; these average less than £2,500. Costs increase to an average of more than £8,000 where a public inquiry is held and experts and barristers are appointed.
I turn to my noble friend Lady Byford’s Amendment 17. This proposed new clause would give the Secretary of State the powers to issue statutory guidance on the making and confirming of a range of orders to divert or extinguish public rights of way. I recognise that the objective here is to give a statutory basis to the draft guidance on the diversions and extinguishment of rights of way that has been agreed by the stakeholder working group and placed in the House’s Library. We developed this draft guidance in collaboration with the stakeholder working group. The guidance sets out the proposed government policy on the diversion or extinguishment of rights of way that pass through gardens, farmyards and commercial premises. It effectively acts as a presumption to divert or extinguish public rights of way that pass through such properties where privacy, safety or security is a problem and exhorts confirming authorities to act on that presumption, wherever possible.
We have great sympathy for those people who experience problems with public rights of way that pass through the garden of their family home. We are on track to implement the right-to-apply provisions introduced by the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000, which give landowners the right to apply for diversion or extinguishment of a right of way. Through clauses in the Bill, we are amending the provisions in such a way as to enable people with rights of way through their gardens to make applications under those provisions. With the right-to-apply provisions in place, local authorities will no longer be able to ignore requests for rights of way to be moved or extinguished, or dismiss them out of hand. They will be obliged to make an order or justify their reasons for not doing so, on appeal to the Secretary of State.
There is of course also the question of whether any orders made would be confirmed. Under the right-to-apply provisions, the Secretary of State will be the confirming authority for all disputed orders. Government will, as I have said, therefore be in a prime position to promote implementation of the revised policy set out in the guidance, by setting a clear precedent.
As I have said, getting broad agreement on this guidance is a fairly significant development. Because it has been developed by the stakeholder working group, there is a strong consensus on it. I am sure that the Committee will agree that new measures such as this are more likely to prove successful in practice because they have been introduced through agreement among stakeholders, regardless of whether they have statutory backing.
Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate and of course to my noble friend the Minister for his very full explanation of the Government’s—I believe—slightly misguided interpretation of what has been put in the Bill. Were we in the Chamber, I would withdraw my amendment in favour of my noble friend Lady Byford’s Amendment 17, which gives me exactly what I and those who have briefed me would like.
I am not sure whether my noble friend Lady Parminter wrote the government line or is following it. She said that the group package should be tried and tested. They both said the same thing, so they are clearly in concert.
Baroness Parminter
I am sure that my noble friend the Minister can speak for himself, but it is not often that he and I are said to say exactly the same things.
Lord Skelmersdale
Does my noble friend want to comment? No? Anyway, they have spoken with one voice, whether accidentally or intentionally. My noble friend Lady Parminter says that it is nice to know.
Both the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, and my noble friend Lord Cathcart said that Amendments 17 and 18 were agreed by the specialist working group and asked why they were therefore not in the Bill. We have heard a lot on that from my noble friend the Minister. My noble friend Lord Plumb agreed that there are occasions when walkers—was his word “misbehave” or have I interpreted what he said?
Lord Skelmersdale
Okay. My noble friend Lord Greaves questioned my comment that there was no right to make a claim. He said that in his local authority area there most certainly was. Would that all local authorities behaved in such an exemplary fashion.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, would that all local authorities always followed the excellent example of Pendle Borough Council.
Lord Skelmersdale
I do not think that I have to answer that, thank goodness. For once, I am not the Minister.
The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, echoed my noble friend Lady Parminter and my noble friend the Minister in sticking to what I call the government line, but I am confused. What exactly is the government line? I have in my hand a copy of the Bill that was presented to the House of Commons which was signed by my right honourable friend Oliver Letwin with support from various other members of the Cabinet. My right honourable friend wrote to Nadhim Zahawi MP about this subject on 23 April, because the said MP had forwarded to him a letter from a Mr and Mrs Colin Ray of Wilmcote for his comments. He replied that he was “very” sympathetic towards the problems experienced by some people with public rights of way across their land and that he was pleased to hear that Mr and Mrs Ray thought that the Defra guidance on diverting and extinguishing rights of way was a positive development. I could not agree more—it is a positive development—but it is not positive enough. He went on to point out that it was the guidance that was supported by the stakeholder working group rather than the amendments to the Deregulation Bill, as proposed by the Intrusive Footpaths campaign—which, incidentally, has been briefing me. He continued that the stakeholder working group has agreed that the Bill should be amended to make the guidance statutory; that that amendment is now in hand; and that he envisages that it will be tabled shortly. However, in the Bill in front of us, it just ain’t there.
Going back to something that the noble Lord, Lord Judd, said earlier, I regard that as the Secretary of State giving a clear and specific undertaking. I do not like to quote the noble Lord’s words back at him but that is the fact. Having said that, unless the Minister wants to answer me now, or would like to do so privately or on another occasion, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Flooding: Somerset
Lord Skelmersdale Excerpts(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Skelmersdale
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what the Army has so far done to help people affected by the floods in Somerset.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) (Con)
My Lords, military personnel and Somerset County Council have conducted a joint reconnaissance of affected areas. This concluded that the civil authority’s response, augmented by the substantial deployment of the national fire and rescue service’s assets, had sufficient capacity to manage the necessary tasks. There is an established system for authorities to request military assistance, which has been called upon several times over recent weeks. A range of defence assets remain on six-hour notice to move in Somerset.
Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, the ongoing floods on the Somerset Levels in particular are causing misery to people and animals on farms. Does not the fact that the county council can when necessary call in the Army and the fact that the Bellwin formula has been extended to the end of March show that the Government are doing all that they can to exacerbate the problem, but that it is for the people on the ground actually to do the work?
Winter Floods
Lord Skelmersdale Excerpts(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord De Mauley
First, I echo the noble Lord’s thanks to the Prince of Wales for his visit and financial contribution, and for the contribution of the Duke of Westminster, which are extremely welcome. We want to ensure that farmers are able to deal with challenges such as bad weather, to grow their businesses, create jobs and compete effectively in the marketplace. It has been very helpful that, in response to recent events, our colleagues at the Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency have agreed to a derogation to move cattle in Somerset without a pre-movement test. That may sound like a small thing, but it is important. I am aware, as the noble Lord said, that a number of charities are supporting struggling farmers more generally. I can also say to him that we have not heard from those charities that they have yet experienced a huge increase in demand, but I take on board his comments, which were extremely important.
Lord Skelmersdale (Con)
My Lords, earlier today, I appeared to criticise the Government for making the situation worse when I asked my supplementary question. I used the word, “exacerbate” when I should, of course, have said, “alleviate”—as this Statement shows very clearly. Whether that counts as a personal apology, I am not entirely sure. However, much of the Somerset Levels is classified as a site of special scientific interest. The problem has been made worse not only, as my noble friend has just said, by not constantly dredging the main rivers, but by farmers being allowed to change their farming practices by, for example, not dredging their individual rhynes. Would my noble friend take this point into the department’s thinking on the long-term ways of improving the situation, not least with the Environment Agency?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I certainly will. It is an interesting and important point.
Golden Rice
Lord Skelmersdale Excerpts(11 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I say a very strong yes to every aspect of the noble Lord’s question. I will also say that what the opponents of this technology have done and are doing is a cause of huge disappointment. We have consistently said that we will need all the tools in the box to feed the global population as it grows to 2050. To deny this will be to deny desperately poor people in developing countries a nourishing diet, and potentially life itself.
Lord Skelmersdale (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend accept that there is no real difference between genetically modified crops and F1 hybrids, which have been with us for decades?
Lord De Mauley
My noble friend is entirely right that there are a large number of technologies, of which GM is but one, all of which are what I describe as tools in the box.
Plant Health (Forestry) (Amendment) Order 2012
Lord Skelmersdale Excerpts(11 years, 12 months ago)
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The Deputy Chairman of Committees
My Lords, there is a Division in the Chamber. I do not know how quickly the noble Lord can finish his remarks.
Lord Knight of Weymouth
I cannot guarantee to do it quickly enough that I would be comfortable.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees
My Lords, we have had our 10 minutes, and so I ask the noble Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth, to continue.
Lord Knight of Weymouth
Thank you. When the Division Bell rang I had read out the end of the rapid risk assessment published by Forestry Research on 9 August 2012 and referred to paragraph 3.1 of the Explanatory Memorandum, which says,
“Such legislation would have been based on poor technical evidence (in the absence of a risk assessment and surveillance data) if introduced earlier and would have had little practical impact because there is little movement of ash for planting during spring and summer”.
The question clearly then arises: given the nature of the risk assessment that had been done in early August, what if there had been a rapid consultation through August, let us say, until mid-September, and a ban introduced then? We are always a little vague in Government and elsewhere about when these seasons begin and end, especially when we are asked to make decisions, but I would define autumn as starting in September or possibly October. We could have had a ban in place at the beginning of October, and would that not have been a good idea?
I would be interested to know in what period the investigation into the wider environment and the presence of the organism in Great Britain took place. The perception we now have is that as a result of the surveillance activity that is now taking place, and which has taken place since the ban, we have discovered the widespread infection of the disease across the wild trees of this country—widespread, that is, not necessarily in terms of volume but in terms of various locations. I would like to know during what period those investigations prior to the ban took place, and why we did not discover more infections at that point.
Environment: Leafleting
Lord Skelmersdale Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I am sure that they were, and far be it from me to suggest that any behaviour by a local authority is philistine.
Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, can the Minister give us any update on dissolvable chewing gum, which I gather has been invented, as chewing gum is the most horrendous litter problem on our streets?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I am pleased to say to my noble friend that I am having a meeting with Wrigley this afternoon. If I had had it last week, I could give my noble friend an answer to his question—none the less, I hope that he is reassured that this matter is under control and I will stick to the solution.
Oak Processionary Moth
Lord Skelmersdale Excerpts(13 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Henley
My Lords, the first point to make is that we do not know that this disease has come from overseas; we do not know where it has come from. Secondly, my advice is that it affects oaks, but I will write to the noble Lord if it affects other trees as well. Thirdly, there is no question of budgetary constraints affecting the fight against this particular menace. I have spoken to the Forestry Commission today and it was perfectly happy to assure me that they had all the resources it needed to fight the problems of the processionary moth. The simple problem is that there are an awful lot of them in a confined area and there are an awful lot of oaks around, and finding all the eggs, larvae and so on is very difficult indeed. Money is not in question.
Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, my noble friend in his last supplementary answer said that the Government do not know where this moth originated from. Does he know whether the moth affects oaks in other countries more seriously than it does here?
Lord Henley
My Lords, there are bad outbreaks in other countries. My noble friend Lady Kramer referred to the problems in the Netherlands. As I said, we cannot be certain as to how it got into the country. It is as likely as not that it came in from imports via the plant trade, but we simply do not know. We will do what we can to continue the fight, but, as I said, it will be one of containment rather than eradication.
Japanese Knotweed
Lord Skelmersdale Excerpts(14 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Henley
My Lords, the noble Baroness is quite right to say that it is a good news story. That is why I was trying to offer some praise to the party opposite for the work done, particularly by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. We will continue our research on the fungus that the noble Baroness mentioned and, in due course, I hope that I will be able to tell her how that is getting on. I have nothing further to add to what I have said today, but we will continue with both avenues as appropriate.
Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, would it not be quite a good thing if this bug, the name of which I cannot pronounce either, were to mutate and attack the oilseed rape seedlings that are desecrating our waterways and creating quite a large eyesore around the country?