Deregulation Bill

Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Skelmersdale]

Breckland, I apologise: the west, shall we say.

On occasions, I use taxis. I ring up—sometimes from a train, sometimes from London—and the taxi company says, “Yes, you will have a taxi arriving at 5.03, or whatever the time is, to meet your train”. Even when I get into that taxi, I do not know whether it comes from, say, Exeter, or rather closer in Devon, which is another local authority area. Quite honestly, I do not care. However, I care about the second part of the noble Baroness’s amendment, which says:

“A licensing authority may exercise all its powers over a vehicle licensed”,

in another area. In other words, I want my taxi to be safe: I do not want the wheel to fall off, the bumper to fall off or whatever it happens to be. To that extent, I go along with proposed new subsection (1A) in Amendment 4, but I cannot go along with proposed new subsection (1)(e).

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Deben, in his stirring defence of the market and its role as a solution to all of the problems that occur, makes a compelling point. However, he also went on to talk about the changes that have happened because of new technology, suggesting that we therefore were safe as a consequence. We are only safer if the company holding and using that information is reputable and operates in a reputable fashion. In fact, you are opening up an enormous area of vulnerability because if somebody, for example, uses a particular firm where all this is electronically recorded, the precise movements are therefore on the record. If that firm is not responsible or, for example, does not maintain proper security, the vulnerable person is made even more vulnerable by that information being available. The noble Lord is of course right, under circumstances in which the company is reputable. There are enormous additional safeguards, because the precise route, the nature of the driver and everything else is on record; perhaps as a consumer, the person concerned has those data. However, that presupposes in the first instance that the company is reputable and has gone through an appropriate process.

[Lord Deben]

I entirely agree with the noble Lord. The point I am trying to make is that the very issue he is raising is covered neither by the Bill itself, nor by the amendment. It just makes us sound as if we are out of touch with what is actually happening. We ought, perhaps, to think again—not now, but in the future—about how to bring this into line with modern technology.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

My Lords, the noble Lord, in his intervention, has made precisely the point I wanted to go into—that is, because these issues are not adequately addressed, the Government therefore need to think again. There is an opportunity to think again, because the Law Commission is looking at precisely this issue at the moment, but the Government, for reasons best known to themselves, have brought forward these proposals in advance of that Law Commission consideration. Surely the sensible thing, therefore, is for the Government to withdraw all these clauses so that we can wait for the Law Commission to come forward with clauses that would no doubt meet both the free market and the technological expectations that the noble Lord, Lord Deben, has.

At the moment, we are faced with a position where the Government are actually weakening the safeguards and are not recognising the context in which private hire firms are now operating. That is neither sensible nor acceptable, particularly if, by waiting for the Law Commission, we could have a more comprehensive and suitable solution.

The whole point about the subcontracting issue is that individuals assume—maybe they are naive to do so—that they are dealing with the firm whose number they know and are related to. They do not realise that that business could be passed on to somebody else. That might meet the needs of somebody getting off a train at 5.03, but it does not necessarily meet the needs of everybody. You at least should have the right to know that that has happened or the process that has taken place. That is why these amendments are important. Actually, the best thing of all would be for the Minister, when she replies, to say that the Government understand these issues and that perhaps what they are trying to do is not quite workable, then withdraw the clauses in their entirety at Third Reading—I do not suppose she could do that today—so that we can wait for the Law Commission to look at all these issues in the round.

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[Baroness Kramer]

I absolutely accept that safety has to be the primary issue. I make the argument that you could see these measures as only enhancing safety by making licensed vehicles or drivers more available to a wider range of people, through subcontracting from one operator to another. This system was adopted in London because it added to the safety of the travelling public. We have not allowed the rest of the country to have that benefit, and it is time we did. Having read much of the material that has come to me, I agree that there are many misconceptions around the clauses we have brought forward. However, it is important for us to look at the reality and make sure that we make these relatively small changes. Eventually there will be a major piece of primary legislation, so it is important that we do not pursue the amendments that the noble Baroness has brought forward and that we understand the benefits that will come from the clauses that have been proposed to provide for subcontracting across districts in the private hire industry.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

Before the noble Baroness sits down, can she just explain to the House clearly why the Government are pressing forward with these changes rather than waiting for the report from the Law Commission? If her argument is that that will be long delayed, can she tell us for how long it will be delayed?

[Baroness Kramer]

I thought that I had explained that, but I will repeat it very quickly. Obviously, we are working on our response to the Law Commission. I have listened to this House today, and this will be a complex piece of legislation in the very much changing world of private hire and taxis, so it seems wrong to deny the public the benefits of simple changes that could be passed now. As I say, they both enhance safety and give flexibility and opportunity, particularly to the small players, who must live day to day. I see no reason not to take advantage of that possibility.

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[Lord Harris of Haringey]

So the Government have the Law Commission’s report at this stage?

[Baroness Kramer]

I am sorry, but I feel as if I am constantly bobbing up and down. Yes—we are preparing our response to the Law Commission.

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[Lord Tope (LD)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lady Hanham very strongly and very warmly. I have no particular London interest to declare now, other than that as a resident of London for many years. I was until last May, when I took voluntary retirement, a London borough councillor for 40 years and leader of the council for 13 of those years. If I learned anything from that experience, it was not to mess around with the waste collection system unless it really needed it.

The very simple question to the Minister is: why do the Government feel that London’s system—which, as far as I am aware, has worked extremely well for the last six or seven years and meets all the Government’s requirements in this Bill—is so in need of change that it requires what is in effect eight pages of primary legislation, if you include what is in the Bill and in the schedule, to correct it? What is so wrong with it? The current system is decriminalised and has an appeals system. In fact, it is working so well that there has never actually been an appeal on waste, but the system works well because it is the same or a similar system to that used for parking appeals. There have been just a few parking appeals over the years, so we can say that the system works well and would work well should there ever be an appeal within the waste system.

The other purpose may be to bring London into line with the rest of the country. Why is that necessary? As my noble friend said, there are many issues—two of which we will be discussing next week—on which London has different and separate legislation and provisions to those of the rest of the country. This is one that has existed since the 2007 Act. As we have said, it has worked well and I am not aware of any difficulties, although perhaps we might be about to hear them, so why not leave well alone? This is a system that is tried and tested, is working well and is hugely less cumbersome, time consuming and cost consuming than that proposed in the Bill.

If the Minister is not in a position to agree to these amendments tonight, may I echo the request from my noble friend that he at least agree to meet with us, try to understand our concerns and see whether we can, at least, reach a sensible solution that does not bring such lengthy, cumbersome and unnecessary burdens on London, which already has a much better system that is working? This is not deregulation; it is excessive regulation and does not belong in a Deregulation Bill.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Tope, I do not have any current London government interests to declare, although I was the founding chair of the artist currently known as London Councils, which was then called the Association of London Government, for five years. I was a London borough leader for a number of years and an elected representative in London for 26 years, and for two—or perhaps four—years I was chair of a London organisation called London Waste Action.

I find Clause 44(6) to be quite bizarre, particularly in a Deregulation Bill. What I understand has happened is that the Government looked for a model of deregulating some of the complexities outside London, found that London had a system that worked and decided to replicate something like it for the rest of the country. However, because of some natural desire in the relevant government department to make things more rather than less complex, which this Bill is supposed to stop from happening, they produced a system that is more complicated than the London one. Then, for ease of simplicity and universality—quite against the principles of localism and devolution, which we understood the Government were in favour of—they decided to impose this more complicated system on London, even though London has a system that works perfectly well.

I frankly do not understand the logic of this. The model that exists in London has emerged through a London Local Authorities Bill, which was passed into legislation by Parliament; it is a locally determined scheme that decriminalises the system and provides a system of appeals which, as the two noble Lords who have spoken have indicated, has worked well since it was introduced. The Bill before us would sweep it away and replace it with a more complicated system, which would necessarily introduce a degree of delay. The process that the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, has described—of forming an intent, telling someone that you might have an intent, then telling them that you have had an intent and giving them an opportunity to make representations and an appeal at each stage—is unnecessarily cumbersome.

The reality is that we are talking about people who are dumping waste. They do so—I have watched it happen, taken photographs and tried to get something done about it. They turn up late at night with a van and they dump a pile of waste somewhere, on the assumption that local authorities will sort it out. The reality is that this is not a process where you need this incredibly complicated system to deal with it. You simply need to pursue those who are offending. What we will create as a result of the Bill is something that will be more bureaucratic and slower, will cost more and will go against the principles of devolution, because it was a system developed by London local authorities in the first instance.

Waste is a big matter—as the noble Lord, Lord Tope, said, “Never go against issues of waste”—and is the third-largest item of expenditure within local authorities. It is a massive part of the business of local government. Here we have a scheme that was developed by London local authorities and that is working well. Now the Government want to come in heavy-handed and against the principles of deregulation and devolution, and impose a complicated, overly bureaucratic and expensive system.

I am sure that the Minister will recognise that Clause 44(6) has crept in by accident, along with its accompanying Schedule 12, and agree to the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, and simply take them out of the Bill so that we can allow the current arrangements to continue. However, if he does not have the authority to agree that tonight, I hope that he will meet with the noble Baroness, myself and others who might be interested, along with London Councils, so that there can be a proper discussion about this before we get to Third Reading. It can then be remedied at that stage, either by the Government or perhaps by the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, introducing a similar amendment and putting it to the vote.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I can be brief because of the powerful arguments made this evening by the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, the noble Lord, Lord Tope, and my noble friend Lord Harris. The points they made were extremely telling. It is incumbent now upon the Government and the Minister to try and answer why an approach that is non-localist and bureaucratic should proceed rather than the current arrangements under the London Local Authorities Act 2007. What is the problem with London that this seeks to solve? It is incumbent on the Government to say.

The Government’s focus on this area is all very well, but is it the right priority at the moment? The Minister will be aware of current figures for recycling rates that show that for England household recycling has pretty much flatlined, with a very small increase in the last figures that I have seen. There are real concerns that recycling rates could potentially decline. I would have thought that the Government should be more worried about that than tying up these bureaucratic arrangements that have been so roundly challenged tonight. I hope the Minister will be able to explain very clearly why the Government are where they are on this.

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[Lord Harris of Haringey]

Can the Minister tell us how many instances of the cases he has described have led to action under the London local authorities scheme?

[Lord De Mauley]

I am quite happy to do that. If I cannot do so during this debate, I will let the noble Lord know whatever information I can find for him.

Clause 44 would ensure that this best practice is adopted and that additional safeguards for the individual are available across all boroughs.

I understand that my noble friend is concerned that the process of issuing penalties will take too long. We need to get the balance right between protecting individuals’ civil liberties and dealing with behaviours which damage local neighbourhoods. We intend that this is reflected in legislation. Since the Deregulation Bill was first published in draft, we have amended Clause 44 so that local authorities will not have to issue multiple warnings to people who repeat the same behaviour of causing harm to the local amenity within a year.

We also believe in a fair and measured approach to penalties. A shoplifter committing a first offence may be issued with a £90 penalty notice for disorder. My noble friend’s amendment would levy penalties of £110 for mistakes and carelessness with Londoners’ bins. Clause 44 allows us to set the level of penalties at between £60 and £80 because we do not believe such mistakes and carelessness should be penalised more heavily than shoplifting. I understand my noble friend’s focus on London and know she would like the city to be treated as a special case. However, other cities in England have, for example, high-density housing, transient populations and student populations. I am sure she would accept that a proportionate, fair approach should apply throughout England.

My noble friend asked why the clause needed to be so wordy. We appreciate that the clause and the schedule are long and look complicated. There are two reasons for that. First, we want to be clear about the process that local authorities must go through as we do not want householders to be penalised for a first-time, inadvertent mistake. Secondly, we are looking to align two different systems, set out in the Environmental Protection Act 1990 and the London Local Authorities Act 2007.

To summarise, this clause as it stands will introduce the protection that a household needs from being punished for a simple mistake or for people throwing the wrong rubbish into someone else’s bin. It will align all of England with a sensible approach that keeps residents informed and levels of penalties proportionate.

My noble friend Lord Tope asked whether I would be prepared to meet him about this, and the noble Lord, Lord Harris, asked the same question. Of course I would be prepared to do that, but I would not want to raise any expectation that the Government will change their position on this. I ask my noble friend to withdraw her amendment.