Railways: East Coast Main Line

Lord Shutt of Greetland Excerpts

Thursday 27th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shutt of Greetland (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for repeating the Statement. I have to say that it is no surprise—I would have thought to anyone—that the winner of the franchise is one of the three applicants. That seems quite a sensible way for things to go. If there are three applicants, the winner will be one of them.

I have a concern about monopoly. The winner of the franchise is the firm that operates on the west coast. There can be opportunity with monopoly. If we are to have a monopoly, can we have some benefits from it? I am delighted that the tentacles of the east coast will go to Dewsbury and Huddersfield, and that there will be more trains to Bradford and more in the West Riding. Those of us in the Pennines are in a position from which we can look east and west. Will there be opportunity under this franchise, particularly on fares and opportunities to choose routes? Bearing in mind that the operator is to be the same, will there also be fair play on fares for people in the middle of the country?

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, this is certainly not a monopoly situation. Quite a number of companies bid on these franchises across the UK. They all start from a level playing field and we consider them completely impartially. With regard to fares, I note that the new franchise operator proposes a 10% reduction of standard anytime fares on longer distances in May 2015.

Railways: High Speed 3

Lord Shutt of Greetland Excerpts

Monday 21st July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kramer]

I can certainly confirm the comments from the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, that high speed rail is a very effective form of transport. It is one of the reasons we have chosen it. However, we have never thought of High Speed 2 as being the limit of our ambition. We have studies under way to look at taking the benefits of high speed rail to Scotland, including what we now call HS Scotland, and we are obviously looking at HS3 and at many more programmes to provide connectivity beyond that.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland (LD)]

My Lords, the word “connectivity” is very appealing. It will be even more appealing if we get more connections that work. Does the noble Baroness agree that if we are to have an east-west HS3 it is even more important that HS2’s arrival in Leeds is not at a hammerhead terminal but at a terminal that really connects with everywhere else in Yorkshire?

[Baroness Kramer]

I fully understand the interest of the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, in connectivity. We consider it to be vital. All the options for the route for phase 2 of HS2 are now being studied, including exactly how stations will work. Connectivity has been built into that discussion with intensive engagement with local authorities and various other stakeholders in the area.

Railways: High Speed 2

Lord Shutt of Greetland Excerpts

Monday 24th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kramer]

I am delighted to say that the department is somewhat ahead of the game. I have already commissioned a report and consultants have been retained; we expect a preliminary response on how to take the benefits of high-speed rail to Scotland. We will get our interim response in July, and that will be a very important document in being able to identify the future. Of course, HS2—even the “Y” that is currently planned—will help to bring journey times to Glasgow and Edinburgh down to less than three hours.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome this report; I am in favour of HS2. However, I am rather more in favour of the “plus”. In this report, one word which bellows out is “connectivity”. In the foreword it says that there is,

“poor connectivity in the North”.

It wants us to be,

“more ambitious … about producing a coherent transport plan for the North”.

On page 9, the report states:

“In contrast, connectivity in the North is poor”.

I agree.

I do not want to detract from what has been said about getting to Crewe earlier, and the connectivity in the north-west. However, I want to speak about the other leg, from Birmingham up into Yorkshire, and the possibilities beyond that. The original proposals in January 2013 propose a terminal station in Leeds—what I describe as a “hammerhead terminus”—where the only connectivity is a long walk. That might suit Leeds but it is useless for connectivity for anywhere else, such as Huddersfield, Halifax, Bradford, Keighley, Skipton, Ilkley, going back round to Wakefield, or further connectivity to York, the north-east and Scotland.

Does the Minister agree that connectivity will be achieved if, in Leeds, we get a new station parallel to the Leeds City station of today, not a station that is a hammerhead terminus, which would mean that people would have to leg it such a long way, and the detraction that that would bring?

Railways: Electrification

Lord Shutt of Greetland Excerpts

Wednesday 18th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord. That is exactly why we have done it. I would also like to pay tribute to the efforts of the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, who skilfully put pressure on the Government in respect of the Ebbw Vale electrification project.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I commend the Government on pursuing these electrification schemes but it is quite clear that there are plenty of further candidates, whether they be Holyhead, Plymouth, Hull, or indeed the Calder Valley. Is the Minister saying that he now sees a rolling programme going forward for electrification? That is what we want to see. We have had bust, and it seems that we have got a bit of boom, but is it going to be rolling forward?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we want to avoid feast and famine for the civil engineering industry. We are saying now what we will do for CP5. I have already indicated to the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, that we will continue the process in CP6, but of course I cannot at this point make any suggestion as to what will happen in CP6.

Aviation: UK Civil Aviation

Lord Shutt of Greetland Excerpts

Monday 23rd January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

I am most grateful to the Minister for giving way, but I take it that he is not going to leave this point before answering the question: how can he possibly justify a review of the hub in Britain while excluding Heathrow? Is that not rather like, as someone said, reviewing the expansion of supermarkets without including Tesco?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, the noble Lord has made his question clear.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

I have and I am sitting down.

Railways: High-speed Rail

Lord Shutt of Greetland Excerpts

Tuesday 10th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shipley]

My Lords, in welcoming the announcement—

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I am afraid that we are out of time.

Localism Bill

Lord Shutt of Greetland Excerpts

Monday 17th October 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

211A: Clause 111, page 90, line 18, leave out “an” and insert “a pre-existing”

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

This group covers all the government amendments on enforcement. Turning first to Clause 111 on retrospective planning applications, these amendments will, I think, allay the concerns raised by my noble friend Lord Avebury in Committee. He thought that the drafting of what is now Clause 111 was ambiguous in that it might be possible for a local planning authority to negate the purpose of this clause by both declining to determine a retrospective planning application and arguing that an enforcement appeal on ground (a) was also inadmissible. These amendments solve the problem. Amendment 211A specifies that the enforcement notice in question must be “pre-existing”. Amendment 211B defines a “pre-existing enforcement notice” as one that was issued before the application—being the retrospective application—was received by the local planning authority. To paraphrase what my noble friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach said in Committee, our policy is that those people seeking planning permission after the event should have one, but only one, bite at the cherry.

I move on to Clause 115, on powers in relation to unauthorized advertisements. In Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, supported by my noble friend Lord Black of Brentwood, was concerned that the provision for serving a removal notice for an allegedly illegal advertisement hoarding was not subject to a right of appeal to a local magistrates’ court, but only by means of a judicial review. Since that debate the Government have been convinced by the arguments made. We have therefore come forward with Amendments 213A, 213B, 213C and 214A. Amendment 213A says that removal notices should be subject to a right of appeal. Amendments 213B and 213C are minor drafting amendments for consistency of expression. Amendment 214A contains the right of appeal itself. The format of the right is very similar to those in new Sections 225C and 225H further on in Clause 115, but with some small differences to reflect that this right of appeal applies to notices requiring the removal of advertisement hoardings, rather than fly-posting or graffiti. I therefore hope that these amendments will meet the concerns of the noble Lords, together with their colleagues, the noble Lords, Lord Smith of Finsbury and Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank. I therefore also urge the noble Lords not to press their Amendments 214 to 223, which have the same purpose as the government amendments, but do not quite work in the way intended. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, we obviously support the Government’s amendments on retrospective planning permission, particularly those in relation to unauthorised advertisements. I understand that my noble friend Lord Borrie and his colleagues will not press their amendments. The Government should be congratulated on listening to the arguments from across the House and the discussions that took place outside the Chamber. We have got a good outcome to this issue which we support. We thank the Government for listening.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I am grateful for those four splendid contributions.

Amendment 211A agreed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, I would have thought that this amendment is unnecessary. If an application for retrospective consent is a fresh application, it would, or should, be notified to those occupiers—not necessarily those who objected before, who might be living anywhere. However, surely it should be treated as an application de novo, and therefore the normal processes would apply. So those affected on a retrospective application would receive notice. I should think, unless the Minister disagrees, that the amendment is otiose.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I believe that the noble Lord is right on this. I thank my noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes for bringing this forward. It is important that we get this absolutely clear. This word retrospective largely means that something happened for which there was no permission. Someone spots it and says, “Look here, you’d better put in a planning application”. That’s the position. In all instances where there is a change, there are requirements in place for local planning authorities to publicise and consult on those applications—that is, the retrospective ones. This is true when a new revised planning application is submitted, and where the holder of a planning permission wishes to delete or vary one or more of the conditions to which their existing planning permission is subject. The Government therefore believe that this amendment is a solution to a problem that does not exist. I hope that my noble friend will feel able to withdraw it.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

I thank the Minister for that answer. I really find it surprising that I should have been unfortunate in two entirely different locations in this respect. But I accept what he says and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

My Lords, I am hoping that this one is equally unnecessary. I moved this amendment in Committee—or an amendment very like it—but when the government reply came, the Minister thought that I was asking about the right to take a new enforcement action well after six years, which is apparently the limit. That was not my point. My point concerns situations where enforcement action has been taken. Again, somewhere near me there is a property which is in foreign ownership; enforcement notices have been served; it has gone through the court process—everything—but nothing has happened for about 10 years now. They have absolutely failed to comply and cannot be contacted anywhere. That is really why I tabled the amendment. However, I hope that the Government will tell me that it is not necessary. I beg to move.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

I understand the concerns of my noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes. Again, however, this amendment is not necessary. Section 171B deals with time limits for taking enforcement action—essentially, serving an enforcement notice. It does not deal with ensuring compliance with that notice. A valid enforcement notice—in other words, one that has not been appealed against, or has been upheld on appeal—remains in force indefinitely unless the local planning authority withdraws it. If the person on whom it has been served does not comply, they can be prosecuted. The maximum penalty is a £20,000 fine in the magistrates’ courts, or an unlimited fine on indictment, and can be subject to a repeat prosecution if they still fail to comply. The penalty is a daily fine until compliance. The local planning authority can also do the works in default and recover its expenses from the landowner. So I believe that there is no need for the amendment, and I trust that my noble friend will feel able to withdraw it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Beecham]

Heaven forfend that I should trespass on the griefs of the coalition about unfulfilled promises. It is already late enough and one could go on for many hours about unfulfilled promises, but I shall resist the temptation.

We cannot support either of these amendments. There is a balance to be struck between what is purely local and where there are other considerations which might well be of significance in regard to major areas of public policy, including that to which the noble Lord, Lord Reay, refers and about which he is exercised—it is right that he should be, if those are his views. There is a legitimate role for the Secretary of State to determine, at any rate, some appeals beyond those which the amendment would refer.

The amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, in addition to the general principle, also creates difficulties. A community right of appeal is an arguable proposition. Whether a community right of appeal could be said to be legitimately exercised by,

“a ward councillor for the area; … any parish council covering or adjoining the area of land to which an application relates; or … any overview and scrutiny committee for the area”,

as proposed in new subsection (2B) that Amendment 232ZB would insert into Section 78 of the 1990 Act, is indeed arguable. I cannot see that those matters are a very persuasive definition of a community right of appeal, even assuming one was in favour of a community right of appeal, which, on balance, I am certainly not—whatever the coalition parties thought they were going to implement.

In these circumstances I offer once again an unusual degree of support to the Minister if he declines to support these amendments.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have spoken. I should like, first, to respond to Amendment 232ZB in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, because it helps to set the scene. The amendment intends to give a new right of appeal for local councillors. Before going into detail it would be useful to start by setting out what we are seeking to achieve in the reforms and how communities can shape the area in which they live. The purpose of our planning reforms is to put the local plan at the heart of the system. In fact, the draft national planning policy framework explicitly says so. It is the plan where councils and communities weigh up and integrate different goals and long-term needs so that it sets the framework within which individual planning applications are assessed and decisions taken. We want planning decisions to be taken by local communities, not more appeals undertaken by unelected inspectors in Bristol.

Everything that we are currently undertaking in the Bill—removing unelected regional structures and the top-down targets which constrained local councils, stopping inspectors arbitrarily rewriting plans without a council’s consent and removing unnecessary central government monitoring regimes and interfering in local timetables—gives control, choice and responsibility for local planning back to councils and communities. Other reforms which introduce neighbourhood planning and ensure appropriate consultation with local people before proposals are submitted have also been to that end, so that local people will, in future, have a real say. They will encourage developers to work with the local community to develop proposals all can support, rather than setting them against each other.

Given this, I have considerable sympathy with the noble Baroness’s intentions here. She desires, as I do, to ensure that local communities and the plans agreed between them and their councils should remain at the heart of planning decisions and she is concerned that, in some cases, that does not always happen because of the way the system works. I do not think that her amendment is a solution here. We consider that this would risk adding unnecessary uncertainty and delay at this crucial time of recovery and growth. Applicants will have invested considerable time, money and effort in preparing their proposals and should expect a council’s decision to be a corporate one. However, I recognise that there are issues that we need to address.

First, I understand that local councils have often felt pressure to approve applications which have not been consistent with the plan. One reason is that officers may advise elected members that if they do not approve development, even where it is outside the plan, they may lose at appeal and have to pay costs. Therefore I can reassure the House that we will revise the costs award circular which governs this process so that where a council refuses a development proposal on the grounds that it is contrary to an up-to-date development plan and there is no issue of conflict with national planning policy, there should be no grounds for an award of costs against the council in question.

Secondly, in some cases applications are made and approved which fall outside the development plan. This is an important flexibility in the system. However, we must also be clear that if an application is outside the terms of the plan it should be approved only if locally elected representatives have considered the views of the local community and concluded that such a departure would be acceptable in planning terms. For this reason, we will consult on requiring departure applications to have compulsory pre-application consultation with the local community so that elected members are fully aware of local views before they decide an application. This will mean that local councils will have a clear understanding of local views when they deal with key applications, should have no fear of costs being awarded against them when they have followed the right procedures and will be able to decide cases in the long-term interests of local communities. These changes to the system will strengthen its resilience and ensure that our reforms achieve their objective of putting the local plan and the views of the local community at the heart of the system.

I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, for raising these issues so vigorously. By doing so, she has done a service to the House. Given our proposals to strengthen community influence and the involvement in planning as a whole, which I have outlined, I hope she will agree that our measures are strong and effective ways to ensure that community views are heard in the process, especially where a development might depart from an up-to-date plan, and that she will not press her amendment.

Turning to Amendment 232ZA, as the noble Lord, Lord Reay, said in Committee, planning is a matter of getting the balance right. I agree. We are committed to a system of fewer appeals and want development proposals to be determined locally. However, in the few cases where appeals are made, the Secretary of State, as decision-maker, must be entitled to take other material considerations into account, as can councils, on finely balanced matters of judgment—for example, where a local policy is out of date because it does not reflect the changing circumstances of the local area or more recent national policy. In such instances the law allows councils to consider other material considerations in making the right decisions for their communities. They should not be restricted and neither should the Secretary of State’s decision be fettered. Amendment 232ZA would therefore be unduly restrictive in this regard.

However, I understand the intention behind the noble Lord’s amendment. We shall take the measures that I outlined earlier so that councils and communities feel confident, if challenged at appeal, in defending planning decisions made in accordance with an up-to-date plan and where there is no conflict with national policy. I reassure the noble Lord that judicial review proceedings can already be brought if a decision was unlawful or due process was not followed. I hope therefore that he will be willing to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Reay]

I thank my noble friend Lord True for his support for my amendment. I agree with him that we have not seen the end of this matter. I was sorry not to have the support of noble Lords opposite. For once they have revealed themselves in their centralist colours.

The Minister entered fully into the arguments on the amendment and I am grateful for that. He said that the Government want to limit appeals—they do not want everything decided in Bristol—but, of course, the effect of my amendment would be to reduce appeals. I appreciate that he repeated what was said at an earlier stage about costs awards and I appreciate what he had to say about the consultation that would need to take place with local communities. In those circumstances, I am happy to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

232AS: Schedule 24, page 419, line 31, at end insert “(Transfer schemes),”

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, this not-quite-final group consists of minor technical and consequential amendments to Part 9 and the schedules to the Bill that have not been picked up in earlier groups. I beg to move.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I thought that we were going to have a short speech from the Minister. The first few amendments here are to do with transfer schemes and tax issues arising from the core cities amendments that we discussed earlier, so I am happy to support them, and indeed the rest of the amendments in this group.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

233: Clause 221, page 200, line 24, after “Act” insert “(other than a power under section 226)”

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

This is a minor technical amendments dealing with commencement orders. I beg to move.

Amendment 233 agreed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, it is fitting that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, should effectively conclude Report stage after his many distinguished contributions to the Bill’s proceedings thus far and, indeed, his previous very substantial record in government. I have a couple of questions. I entirely endorse the thrust of the noble Lord’s amendment. I hope that it will be acceptable to the Government. This is more a matter of process. We are not entirely clear how the new system of post-legislative scrutiny will work and what pieces of legislation will be included in it. I hope that this will be one of them. I do not know whether the Minister can indicate whether that is so but in any case it is understood from the impact analysis that the Government intend to draw up the finer details of the review methodology in the months ahead, as they put it. Since the relevant document was written some time ago, that will presumably be done through a soon to be formed Localism Bill review steering group. Has such a group been formed or will it be formed? Who will be involved in it if it has not already been set up? When is it likely to report? How will it work? These are the crucial procedural questions. The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, rightly refers to the financial aspect and we entirely endorse the view that as this will effectively be a new burden on local government, it will presumably be within the new burdens doctrine. It will be good to have an assurance on the record that any additional costs of that kind will be met by central government.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, Amendment 249 would mean that the department has to produce a post-legislative impact assessment setting out the additional expenditure incurred by relevant authorities as a direct consequence of this Bill. An established process is already in place for post-legislative scrutiny of Acts. As set out in Cabinet Office guidance, departments are required to submit a memorandum to their departmental select committees three to five years after Royal Assent of an Act. This memorandum sets out a preliminary assessment on how the Act has worked out in practice, relative to objectives and benchmarks identified during the passage of the Bill.

In addition, each of the individual impact assessments for the specific policies in the Bill is accompanied by a post-implementation review plan. The amendment to insert a further requirement to produce a post-legislative impact assessment is therefore unnecessary. Inevitably, putting the provisions of this Bill into practice will mean local authorities taking on some new responsibilities. However, the Government are committed to ensuring that any additional burdens on councils are funded in accordance with the new burdens doctrine. The impact of the Bill has been assessed in the usual way, and the necessary funding will be made available.

I regret that I am not cited on the localism group referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. Obviously, I shall have to drop him a line on that point. I hope that my noble friend Lord Jenkin will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

My Lords, I am very grateful for the kind remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. I am not wholly reassured because this is such a very special and particular post-legislative assessment that it will be necessarily picked up in that form by the full PIR. However, my noble friend has made the Government’s case on this. I have argued that local authorities generally want to know early the total extra burden, but I am happy to withdraw the amendment.

Localism Bill

Lord Shutt of Greetland Excerpts

Monday 10th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, I have some sympathy with the noble Baroness, and welcome her on her return from her homeland. I trust she has not been suffering from jet lag; I will not detain her too long.

I am not sure that the amendment is necessarily the right way to deal with this. My understanding is that in conservation areas there are provisions under the Town and Country Planning Acts for steps to be taken to maintain properties of this kind. It is not without interest that in Edinburgh recently there have apparently been problems with requirements being imposed on local residents by the local authority—who appear to have powers similar to those advanced in this amendment—which have caused some controversy. Apparently large sums of money have had to be laid out on improving or maintaining properties, and some of those who are benefiting from those expenditures have been connected with the decision-making process. That would not be applicable if the amendment were carried, and one would hope that it would not occur. Nevertheless, it is difficult to define exactly what standards would be required.

There is, however, a more general point which applies to this and the other amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, and that is the general by-law-making powers of local government. This is something I took up with the previous Administration, and some modifications were made about that issue. It might be worth the Government looking at the extent to which councils are free to make by-laws as opposed to having to have everything approved by individual departments. Alongside that, perhaps the Government could look at the question of consent regimes generally, which is something again that I have been attempting to pursue for a number of years, including in some recent Written Questions.

The noble Baroness has touched on an issue, perhaps almost inadvertently, that is worth considering: the capacity of local authorities to make particular provisions for their areas without necessarily having to have everything approved by central government. I do not know how the Minister will respond; I suspect that he will acknowledge the good intentions but say that perhaps it is not appropriate for this Bill, and I certainly would not press him to go further than that. However, I ask the Government to take back the issues of by-law-making powers and consent regimes generally, not for the purposes of this Bill, but as part of a localist agenda.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, for introducing her amendment and welcome her back to Britain. Local authorities already have extensive powers to take action where a property is dangerous or having an adverse impact on the amenity of the neighbourhood. I see no need for additional powers. Under the Housing Act 2004, local authorities can tackle poor conditions across all residential properties. If a property is found to contain serious hazards, the local authority can instruct its owner to undertake any works necessary to ensure that it is safe. Inspections and any subsequent enforcement to address the disrepair can be triggered by complaints to the local authority.

Local authorities have a key role to play in identifying empty properties in their areas, and in developing strategies to bring them back into effective use. We encourage local authorities to work with owners to persuade them of the benefits of bringing their property back into use. However, where it is clear that owners are not prepared to co-operate with efforts to get their property occupied through agreement, local authorities have enforcement powers to deal with them. Further powers available to local authorities to tackle disrepair and poor maintenance include those in the Town and Country Planning Act 1990. Where properties have an adverse impact on the amenity of the area, local authorities can require that they are tidied up, repainted and, where necessary, rebuilt. I hope this will satisfy the noble Baroness and that those who are concerned will have more luck in getting their local authorities to pursue the powers that they have.

I take on board the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, on the by-law issue. I confirm that the Government will look into that further.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

I thank the Minister for his reply on this matter, which he went into in detail. I am even more grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, who understood the sort of point that I was getting at. I hope we will see the day when special items of need for particular councils can be dealt with more directly in that way. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, again, one sympathises with the motivation behind this amendment. Quite apart from the particular case to which the noble Baroness referred, it is not a particularly attractive sight to see people hanging about smoking in the street. However, the only grounds on which orders could be made would relate to the impact of that smoking on health.

Enclosed areas are of course covered by the existing legislation, and, as I understand it, there is power to designate areas other than enclosed areas, if, in the authority’s opinion, there is significant risk that without designation persons in the area would be exposed to significant quantities of smoke—areas where, although they are outdoors, there is a concentration of people or of prevailing structures around the area that might lead to people being exposed to the smoke. If that is indeed the case, as it appears to be under the Health Act 2006, there does not appear to be any need for the amendment. I would encourage local authorities to look at that Act. No doubt the Minister in replying will have more information about that.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, again I thank the noble Baroness and the noble Lord for their comments. Indeed, I have great sympathy for the amendment as it seems to me that the place immediately after the no-smoke zone ends is the problem territory, whether it is outside a public building, or wherever it may be.

The amendment would give local authorities an explicit power to make by-laws designating areas as smoke-free. The Health Act 2006 makes provision for the prohibition of smoking in enclosed public places and workspaces. It came into force in England on 1 July 2007. Section 4 of the Act provides regulation-making powers for the Secretary of State for Health to make further regulations—for England—designating as smoke-free any place or description of place that is not smoke-free under the Act. This could cover outdoor places. Therefore, if the evidence on the harms of exposure to second-hand smoke becomes more robust, and the Government’s preference for voluntary local action to extend smoke-free places where there is a clear need is shown not to be working, the Government can consider using Section 4 of the Health Act 2006 at a later date. I would say that, at the moment, the Government do not intend to make use of these powers. However, I know that colleagues in the Department of Health welcome the debate on this important issue and will continue to monitor developments and the evidence.

While we are sympathetic to local authorities making by-laws that preserve public health, our preference is to see local authorities promote the benefits of environments free from second-hand smoke on a voluntary basis. Creating smoke-free areas through legislation gives rise to complex issues, which I know that colleagues at the Department of Health would want time to consider carefully, and I do not think this is something we should be dealing with at this late stage of this Bill. As such, I am afraid that I cannot support the amendment and trust that the noble Baroness will be able to withdraw it.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

I thank the Minister and the spokesman from the Opposition for their very good and sound comments. I did not mention earlier that in the particular case I referred to one person left a cigarette burning which set fire to one of the garages so there is obviously a bit more of a risk in that regard too. However, I thought that was a red herring and should not be brought up.

This is a serious issue. I do not know what will happen in the future. I appreciate the points made about this being perhaps more of a health issue and therefore I am pleased to have aired it today—what a silly remark, to say “I have aired it” when we are talking about smoking. I have taken on board the comments that have been made and thank noble Lords very much. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, it is almost refreshing to move from the constant headlines about the casino economy, which the world has enjoyed for the past few years, to something as substantive and reasonable as the noble Lord has brought to the House today in terms of the limited number of premises to which this amendment would apply. The key to the argument of the noble Lord is that this should be a matter for local decision within the overall context of that limited number. It seems to be entirely consistent with the approach of localism—it should be a matter for local determination—with the benefits that the noble Lord has referred to being realised in a number of places that wish to see that kind of development augmenting their current offer to residents and visitors. I hope that the Government will look sympathetically on the amendment and facilitate its passage.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have spoken on this amendment. I am aware that this amendment would make changes that some elements of the British casino industry have been seeking for some time. I can sympathise with the sentiments behind it, but this is not the right time to discuss the issues that the noble Lord raises. It is not an uncontroversial proposal and it would be wrong to assume that there is unanimous support for it either inside or outside the industry.

Seventeen new licenses were provided for by the Gaming Act 2005 aimed at contributing to economic development and regeneration in carefully selected locations. We do not know what sort of impact this proposal could have on the eight competitions to award the new licenses which are currently under way. All of those have yet to launch their processes. It would not be right to bring forward measures at this stage which could undermine these competitions and adversely affect the benefits that these new casinos could bring to local communities.

Nor should we assume that the casino industry in Britain is united behind this proposal. I understand that the industry is split over the idea. The National Casino Industry Forum supports it, but the Casino Operators Association is thoroughly opposed. That is not to say that the Government reject outright the principle behind the amendment, but there is some way to go before we could consider offering our support and we would need to look at some issues. For example, the amendment as proposed does not require the 40 or 50 currently dormant casino licences to be handed back as a quid pro quo. That might be an important gesture to ensure that any new flexibility did not lead to a substantial increase in the number of casinos.

The relevant Minister, the Minister for Tourism, who is responsible for gambling policy has met with representatives of the industry a number of times and they are fully aware of his views. I am sure that he would be prepared to consider this matter in the future in the terms that I have just outlined. With those reassurances, I hope that the noble Lord is willing to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Clement-Jones]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. If those are reassurances, I wonder what a negative response would be. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for his very positive response and I am grateful for his support. This is an anomaly and it should be covered by localism, the very word in the title of the Bill. On the other hand, I understand that the industry is not completely united on this. There is some wisdom in what the Minister has to say about waiting to see the outcome of the second round of the 2005 licences.

I take some comfort from the Minister’s comments that this will be kept under review. I have an awful feeling that it is never the right time and that it is easy to say that it is not the right time now. The NCIF, myself and others will be entering the lists again just as soon as the 2005 round is over and the impact of those new casinos is known because I think the good sense of this proposal is self-evident. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, I am very taken with the image of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, patrolling the highways and byways of rural Essex as a sort of unpaid litter warden. It is a charming thought and I am sure he did a very good job, but he should not have to. That is the message of the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, and I congratulate him on bringing this matter to the attention of the House and hope that the Government will be able to respond. As the noble Lord said, the matter was debated in another place on an amendment moved by the Member for Gateshead, Ian Mearns, with whom I was discussing this on the train from Newcastle this morning. He received what seemed to be a sympathetic response from the Minister, Andrew Stunell, who said:

“We will certainly look carefully at the matters that have been raised”.—[Official Report, Commons, 18/5/11; col. 441.]

Time has passed so I hope that the consideration has taken place. I think it is preferable to have this in national legislation rather than leave it to by-laws. There seems to be no reason why this amendment should not be proceeded with on this Bill or at least a clear indication given that it will have some priority in other legislation. But this is really too good an opportunity to miss and I hope that the Minister in replying, even if he cannot say today that the amendment will be accepted, will indicate that by Third Reading there will be a clear position and the Government will feel able to adopt it.

Of course, as the noble Lord pointed out, this is essentially a matter of enforcement. There is little point in having regulations without the capacity to enforce them. But, as the Essex police have found out in another context, enforcing measures concerning the driving of vehicles is not necessarily straightforward. This would certainly obviate the kind of difficulties that have arisen in another case and one would hope that the Government would see the logic of that and accept the thrust of the noble Lord’s amendment, and see to it one way or another that the objective which most of your Lordships share is carried into being.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have taken part in this debate and pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, and his tenacity in pursuing this issue. It is always said that this is a House of experts. I had not appreciated the expertise that we had between us about the distance from the fish and chip shop to the home. I am also an expert on this. The home where I was brought up and lived until I was 23 was the exact same distance from the fish and chip shop. It was our garden that caught the recycled newspapers which in those days were used for wrapping up fish and chips, and we had to keep shifting them, so I understand the concern that people have about litter.

This amendment would give local authorities an explicit power to make by-laws about littering from cars. Throwing litter from vehicles on to public land is a littering offence under Section 87 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990. Indeed, some local authorities successfully tackle litter louts, issuing them with fixed penalty notices. I fully acknowledge that taking enforcement action against those who litter from vehicles can often represent a practical problem. However, extending the scope of the littering offence, as was also suggested by the Local Government Group in its amendment rejected in Committee in the Commons, raises issues of fairness and proportionality. A registered keeper may be open to prosecution even though they did not commit the offence and were not present to prevent it. It may not always be a ready solution for the registered keeper to avoid prosecution by identifying who was the actual offender.

However, as has been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, powers will shortly become available to London boroughs following enactment of the latest London Local Authorities Bill, currently before Parliament, which will allow them to issue a civil penalty to registered keepers where enforcement officers witness littering from a vehicle. It makes sense to learn the lessons from the application of that approach in London before moving to wider legislation—and legislation is not the only approach. Changing littering behaviour is key. That is why the Government are supporting Keep Britain Tidy in developing the Love Where You Live campaign. That work with businesses, local authorities and civil society partners will make an important contribution to changing behaviour on littering in all its forms. The Defra Secretary of State is calling together later this year representatives of vehicle hirers, motoring associations, manufacturers, service stations, et cetera, with a view to agreeing a voluntary commitment to tackle littering from vehicles.

It is one of the guiding principles of making a by-law that no by-law should reproduce national legislation, which is what this amendment would achieve. That being the case, and although I certainly support the intention behind the amendment, which is that the anti-social practice of littering should be a criminal offence, I cannot support it and trust that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

The amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, raises a significant issue. I can clearly see the point that he is making. If the Government are not minded to accept it, I hope that the noble Lord will be able to give us some insight into the Government’s thinking on how they intend to deal with this problem. My noble friend Lord Beecham raised a significant point about residential property, which is probably just as important as the point about commercial property.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have spoken on this amendment, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, who moved it. The amendment would give authorities the power to reduce the liability for empty property rates. Our ability to take action on empty property rates needs to be balanced against the costs involved, the targeted support that we already provide on business rates and the overriding need to reduce public expenditure and support the economy generally by reducing the deficit. This Government have already doubled small business rate relief for two years, which will benefit about half a million rate payers, with about one-third of a million paying no rates at all for that period. We are also taking powers through this Bill to waive £175 million of backdated business rates demands levied on businesses, including some in ports.

Unfortunately, in taking these matters into consideration, support for empty property rate measures is currently simply unaffordable. While the Government have no immediate plans for reform, we are certainly keeping this matter under review. However, the Bill does give local authorities powers to provide discounts on business rates bills as they see fit, provided they fund the relief themselves. So authorities will be able to reduce bills in the way suggested by the amendment.

I hope that the noble Lord is willing to withdraw the amendment, but I assure him that the matter is under review. It is quite interesting, because I have within the papers here a note about the reliefs. In 2007-08, 2008-09, 2009-10 and 2010-11, changes were made.

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, can I just point out to my noble friend that the effect of my amendment is not to reduce business rates but to multiply them by five times, resulting in greatly increased revenue to the local authority and the Exchequer. I am afraid that in some way his briefing is somewhat wide of the mark. I should be delighted if he would write to me when his officials have been able to revise their mathematics. As the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, clearly understands, this is about increasing the rates and increasing government revenue. I would hate it to be thought that I was in any way undermining the stalwart efforts of my right honourable friend the Chancellor to reduce the deficit.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I am delighted that the noble Lord has made those comments. I think that the officials had difficulties with this, and quite frankly so did I. I sought out the Local Government Finance Act 1998, but I am afraid that it has been amended, because the reference that he makes is not there. Immediately before speaking, I tried to check this myself, because I had some doubt about this. The whole area is under review, as it seems to have been for four years on the trot, because Chancellors and local government people have changed the position. So it is still the fact that the area is under review, but it is one that does impact on the economy. Having heard what the noble Lord said in his latter remarks, clearly, we will need to reflect further. But I cannot make any commitments at this stage. Perhaps a few tender words here and there might help us to understand exactly what he is about.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

Can the Minister give the House an indication that he will come back before Third Reading? I would not want the noble Lord, Lucas, to have to come back again on Third Reading on this matter.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

I will certainly use my best endeavours to see that we can write to the noble Lord and that copies are placed in the Library so that other noble Lords with an interest can see the results of that.

[Lord Beecham]

Can the Minister also consider the points that I made in addition to those made by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for Third Reading?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

I will endeavour to look at them, although I believe that they were on a different matter. Nevertheless, in the interests of moving forward, I am sure that we will be able to look at that too.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

197B: Clause 69, page 60, line 20, at end insert—
“(2A) The persons or bodies who may be specified by regulations under subsection (2)(d) include a Minister of the Crown or a government department.”

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords we now move to that part of the Bill regarding right to challenge. The first set of Government amendments—there are eight amendments in the group—seek to improve the workability of the right and to clarify certain issues that arose in response to our recent consultation exercise and indeed at the Committee stage in your Lordships’ House. Our consultation on the community right to challenge showed there is a real appetite to extend the duty to consider challenges under the right to more public authorities, including central government departments. Seventy-three per cent of respondents on this issue supported this course of action and I believe it has the support of many in this House. During our deliberations in Committee the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, suggested several services provided by government departments to which the right could be extended.

Clause 69(2)(d) already gives the Secretary of State the power to add other persons or bodies carrying on functions of a public nature as relevant authorities. Amendment 197B ensures that these persons or bodies could include a Minister of the Crown or a government department. Amendment 197C ensures that if the duty is extended to a person or body that exercises functions outside England, the right to submit an expression of interest will apply only to services provided by that person or body in England.

Amendment 197D responds to a query raised by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, in Committee about whether a public or local authority could be a community body. This was never our intention. In line with the definition of a voluntary body in Clause 69(6), we are therefore amending Clause 69(8) to clarify that a public or local authority cannot be a community body.

Amendments 197E, 197F, 197G and 197H are about enabling relevant authorities to determine timescales. They make changes to the provisions on the timescales associated with the community right to challenge in response to concerns raised by many local authorities, and others, during our recent consultation. These concerns focused on the difficulty of setting timescales nationally that could take account of the wide variations in services and circumstances and did not interfere with timescales for existing commissioning cycles. We agree with these concerns and are therefore amending the provisions to remove the Secretary of State’s powers to set timescales in regulations and replace them with a requirement for relevant authorities to set these timescales instead. We intend to set out in guidance, to which authorities will need to have regard under Clause 73(2), the factors they should take account of in doing this.

We have outlined what we expect these factors to be in the policy statement on the community right to challenge which was recently made available to Peers. Chief among them is the need for authorities to set timescales that give relevant bodies sufficient time—whether that is to prepare and submit an expression of interest or organise themselves to bid effectively in a procurement exercise or ensure relevant bodies are notified of decisions within a reasonable time. Authorities will also be required to publish details of these timescales.

Amendment 197E therefore removes the Secretary of State’s powers to specify the minimum periods which authorities can specify for the submission of expressions of interest. Clause 70(2) already enables authorities to specify periods for the submission of expressions of interest and Clause 70(3) to publish details of these periods.

Amendment 197F removes the Secretary of State’s power to specify the minimum and maximum periods which must elapse between the acceptance of an expression of interest and the commencement of the procurement exercise. Instead authorities are required to specify and publish details of these periods, which can be different for different cases.

Finally, Amendments 197G and 197H remove the duty on authorities to make a decision on an expression of interest within a timescale specified by the Secretary of State in regulations. Instead the authority must specify and publish the maximum time this decision will take. In order to prevent delay, relevant authorities will also be required to inform the relevant body of this maximum period in writing, either within 30 days of the end of the period for receiving expressions of interest, or where none exists, within 30 days of receiving an expression of interest. It must then notify the relevant body of its decision within the timescale it has specified. I beg to move.

[Lord Lucas]

I should be very grateful if my noble friend could go into a little more detail about Amendment 197E. He has removed there the ability of the Secretary of State to set minimum timescales. I understand what he says about flexibility. But if a local authority wishes to discourage activity under this part of the Bill, then timescales are where it will squeeze most easily. As my noble friend says, community organisations will take time to get themselves organised, to get their bids in and get them up to the standard required for subsequent scrutiny and competition. It is not clear to me in all the liberalising—from the point of view of the local authority—which is going on in these amendments, how the community, or bits of the community, can effectively appeal against, or have some notice taken, of a local authority which is setting very short timescales, which make things impracticable. There is guidance there. If the local authority does not go along with guidance, there does not seem to be any set of teeth that can be sunk into the local authority.

My experience of this is mostly in terms of parking regulations. There, again, the Government issue guidance. If the local authority goes against that guidance, no one takes any action of any description at all. Here it seems to be rather more important that in order to encourage action under this part of the Bill, there is an effective policing of the actions of local authorities to make sure that they are opening themselves up to what must be in many cases an inconvenient and, in their view unnecessary, application of neighbourhood rights and interests, with a system which they have got running very nicely, thank you very much. I would very much like some comfort that there will be an effective substitute for the backstop provided by the Secretary of State in the Bill as we have it now, which is being removed by these amendments, in cases where a local authority is acting to make this part of the Bill unworkable. I hope my noble friend can give me some comfort on that.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

I do not know whether I can give the noble Lord any comfort. The problem is that, on the one hand, people are asking for localism and letting the locals decide and, on the other hand, the noble Lord is saying, “Let the Secretary of State be on their back”. We cannot have it both ways. We certainly hope that people will be reasonable. For example, to have an expression of interest that is open for five minutes would not be reasonable. I should have thought that there would be other ways in localities to put a stop to that. It is as a result of our earlier debates and concerns about the Secretary of State being too prescriptive in these matters that some of these amendments have been brought forward. I should have thought that that would be appreciated by the House. But we are seeing the other view, which I know exists from time to time, that there will be recalcitrant local authorities which will not get on with things as people hope they might. I think we have moved in the right direction and, if it goes wrong and the recalcitrant authorities become a multitude, clearly something would have to be done, but perhaps we ought to trust local people and local authorities.

[Lord Greaves]

I take it that that was not the Minister’s reply to the debate. I have three brief points to make. We are moving on to the community right to challenge, and some of us have found it quite difficult to understand how it will work and how some of the problems which might result will be overcome. I thank the Bill team for their time and patience in explaining exactly how they see it working and being fairly honest about some of the difficulties which might exist. This is a difficult part of the Bill and it is one which, when it is enacted, as no doubt it will be, will need a careful eye kept on it. I cannot say that we have not had an immense amount of co-operation in trying to thrash it out.

I very much support Amendments 197B and 197E to 197G on the timing issues. Those are clearly a result of responding to the public consultation, but also to the discussions in Committee. I do not share the worries of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, about the timing issues. The way in which the timing issues are now presented in the Bill is much better and leaves a great deal of initiative to local authorities. It is much better than the existing wording which leaves it all to the Secretary of State to lay down rules and regulations. I wish that the Government had been more flexible on similar matters in the 100 or so areas in the Bill that we can point to as giving excessive powers to the Secretary of State. In this instance, the Government have listened and we welcome that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

I thank noble Lords who have contributed to the debate. I am able to say to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, that we are requiring local authorities to publish the timescales, so that if there were hideous timescales they would be shown up. I cannot imagine that they would endeavour to publish timescales which looked as though they were totally impossible for people to cope with. As a matter of public law, they must act reasonably. We have to bear that in mind and I hope that gives the noble Lord some comfort.

I understand the concerns of my noble friend Lord Greaves. I know how much hard work he has put into trying to understand the issues in this area. I shall write to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, if I am wrong, but I believe it is quite right that a parish should be in a position to exercise the right. I believe that if one were able to challenge areas of government, local authorities could then become relevant. I may have to write to him to clarify that, but that was my belief when I heard people speak on that area, although it may be that some tidying up is required. I trust that noble Lords will be able to accept these amendments.

[Lord Greaves]

Before the Minister sits down, and without wishing to pre-empt the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, is that an indication that there might be some tidying up to be done at Third Reading, and that that issue therefore could be considered then?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

If we can do this by writing a letter and giving comfort in that way, it will be done that way. If, ultimately, it really were needed, we would indeed have to come back to it at Third Reading.

Amendment 197B agreed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord True]

There is nothing to say that this deals with a large organisation—some of the things that we are discussing at the moment are relatively small. It seems inconceivable to me that two employees would act against the wishes of those people that they actually want to work with in the future. For years the noble Lord endured the policy of his party being made by small, powerful executives purporting to speak in the names of millions of people—for all we know, they probably still do. I do not see any reason why a group of workers or employees should not get together and entrust their negotiations about an expression of interest to two or three of their number. I think that we should be extremely careful in framing this Bill not to put forward regulation that makes employee initiative more difficult.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have contributed. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, introduced the debate and then strolled off into the area covered by my notes for the next section, so I will trespass into them and see whether that works.

Before I respond in general I will deal with the matters raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, because I am aware that he was not particularly comforted on the last occasion that I responded to him. I hope that he will be now, because if he looks at Clause 74, he will see that it is headed, “Provision of advice and assistance”. I will not say that it is littered with the words “Secretary of State”, but they are there half a dozen times, which suggests that the Secretary of State may well give advice and assistance to those who want to be involved in the challenge. I understand that the department’s view is that the clause would be used to give help and advice to various organisations that may be far better able to tackle the challenge.

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords will my noble friend clarify whether that would be the case when the Secretary of State was being challenged under the amendments made earlier by my noble friend?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

That is a little further down the road, is it not? If the clause states that that advice is being given, then that advice is being given. Therefore, if the Secretary of State is directly giving a service that is ultimately challenged, I would have thought that that had to be, quite frankly. However, that is a little further down the road and it will not happen tomorrow. Nevertheless, it is there that advice can be given and I hope that that will be helpful to my noble friend.

I will look at these notes and respond accordingly. Amendment 197CA would remove relevant authority employees as a relevant body, meaning that they would be unable to express an interest in running a relevant service. The coalition programme for government committed to empowering public sector staff to take control of their own services in new enterprises such as mutuals. That was reinforced in the recent publication of the Open Public Services White Paper. The Cabinet Office is leading on implementing this commitment by introducing a new right to provide. The inclusion of employees of the relevant authority as relevant bodies under the right to challenge will implement the right to provide in relation to local authority services.

To accept this amendment would be a great shame. Employees are often best placed to see how services could be improved and their ideas could make a huge difference in delivering more efficient, effective and responsive services. The amendment could prevent those good ideas from seeing the light of day by forcing employees to organise themselves as a charity, voluntary or community body simply in order to express an interest. Employees may not be prepared to be in a position to undertake such a process before an expression of interest has even been accepted, although of course they will have to comply with the requirements for what must be in an expression of interest.

In addition, this could create a parallel process with employees putting their ideas to local authorities outside the procedure set out in the right. This would risk jeopardising the transparency of the process: proposals should be evaluated consistently whether they originate from existing employees, a parish council or a voluntary or community body.

It is worth noting that in the policy statement, the Community Right to Challenge, which was made available in the House Library on 8 September, we make it clear that safeguards will be in place to prevent the kind of abuse of the right that is concerning some noble Lords. For example, the policy statement states our intention to provide that expressions of interest will have to set out the relevant body’s case that they are capable of providing the service and of competing in a procurement exercise. That will work to ensure that only employees serious about running a service express an interest in running it and should discourage any abuse of the right. In addition, employees submitting an expression of interest will need to set out how they propose to engage with staff affected by the expression of interest in the development of their proposal.

Amendment 197CB, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, deals with employee support for challenges. I understand that the intention behind the amendment is to apply a condition to Clause 69(5)(e) that employees must first obtain the support of a majority of employees affected by their expression of interest before they can be considered a relevant body. The policy statement I referred to previously also set out our intention to require employees to set out in their expression of interest their proposals for staff engagement. However, we do not want to be prescriptive about how this is to be achieved. It is best decided locally rather than centrally. The experience of the way the right to request has worked in the National Health Service shows that existing, well established communication channels are likely to play an important part in engaging staff. There is no requirement for a ballot to demonstrate staff support for a proposal under the right to request. However, the face-to-face meetings, intranet updates and staff clinics undertaken when some 1,200 staff from the Hull primary care trust used the right to transfer to a social enterprise show that good communication between the staff involved is likely to be at the heart of any successful challenge.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

I shall be brief. The amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, raises important concerns. The other amendments in the group seek a process to deal with these concerns. Without these amendments or something else, it is all rather open to interpretation, which is not a good place for us to be. I agree with the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, about the sense of unease.

The amendments in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Greaves and Lord Tope, and my noble friend Lord Beecham, are absolutely right. They make provision for a consultation process with the users of a service, their representatives and residents of the area. If the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, is unable to accept these amendments, will he tell the House when he responds how he squares that with his previous remarks about localism? I genuinely feel that the Bill is confused. In some cases it gives power to the local community, in some cases it takes it back. There is a lot of regulation. It is all a bit confused here. I would be grateful if the noble Lord could address that point in particular.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

I thank the noble Lords who have spoken to this set of amendments. I have notes on these amendments and will do my best to deal with them. Frankly, I am not certain that there is an absolute assurance, but let us see how we go with these amendments.

Amendment 197EZA would give the Secretary of State a power to specify in regulations a service value threshold above which an expression of interest may be rejected. It further provides that this threshold will be set at or above the level at which a full, open tendering process is required to take place by any Act or regulations. I understand that the intention here is to focus the right on those contracts where it is perceived that community groups might have a greater advantage in the procurement process. However, it is worth being clear that while only contracts valued at more than £156,000 must currently comply fully with processes set out in the public procurement regulations, procurement below this level will still be subject to requirements of openness, transparency, freedom to provide services and non-discrimination.

Furthermore, it is not right to limit the range of services open to challenge in this way. It is not true that the voluntary sector delivers only small-value services. The right ensures that good ideas for improving any services get a fair hearing and gives those groups the opportunity to go for it. A threshold that prevents consideration of ideas for better or more innovative delivery of higher-cost service contracts seems unnecessary, given the safeguards that I have already mentioned, and a shame.

This amendment also risks discouraging growth and partnership. For example, a consortium of Holy Cross Centre Trust, Mind and Camden Volunteer Centre won a £2 million contract to deliver mental health daycare services. Would this consortium not be able to challenge? Or take the example of Hackney Community Trust, which started off as a small social enterprise delivering local community transport and has expanded into a highly successful social enterprise. At what point would we say “Sorry, you have grown too much, so your ideas no longer deserve a fair hearing”?

Finally, it could also limit opportunities for larger charities and communities of interest to challenge for higher value services. Nobody would argue, for example, that Age UK does not represent the interests of older people. Yet if Age UK wanted to challenge to deliver the meals on wheels service alongside other services in a large authority area, this amendment could prevent it from doing so. It would be inflexible to set a threshold for service value above which an expression of interest could be rejected, and we would not want to reduce the scope of services that could be challenged.

Amendments 197EA and 197EB would enable relevant authorities to carry out a service review instead of a procurement exercise following the acceptance of an expression of interest. Amendments 197EC and 197ED would require relevant authorities to consult widely in carrying out such a review. We have introduced the community right to challenge to ensure relevant bodies with good ideas for how they can deliver services differently or better get a fair hearing and a chance to compete to run the service. These amendments would put at risk both of these aims.

It is unclear what a service review would constitute under these amendments, and the authority would not be compelled to take any action as a result. Many of you will have received the briefing from 10 leading voluntary and community sector groups, including ACEVO, NCVO, NAVCA and Locality, which states:

“Giving local authorities the choice whether or not to respond to an Expression of Interest with a procurement exercise would negate the right to challenge entirely, by effectively allowing local authorities to ignore Expressions of Interest”.

We are supportive of authorities reviewing their services and consulting widely as part of that activity. This is what good authorities will be doing regularly anyway. But that should not detract from or obstruct these important new rights for communities and I do not agree that they should be watered down in this way.

Having said that, if a local authority and any groups that had submitted an expression of interest can agree together that a service review is the most appropriate course of action, there is nothing to stop those groups withdrawing their formal interest and working with the authority to conduct such an exercise. Leaving the power in the hands of the community group ensures that the right is protected but gives the flexibility—where there is a good and proactive local authority—that noble Lords are requesting.

Amendments 197EC and 197ED impose an onerous duty and go beyond, for example, the best value duty consultation requirement, where the duty is to consult representatives of people who may be affected. Contacting every individual resident and service user would constitute a significant new burden. Again, good authorities already engage a wide range of service users and their representative groups as part of the commissioning and engagement process, and should be designing and commissioning services that best meet the needs of their communities.

Amendment 197FA seeks to enable relevant authorities, when assessing bids in a procurement exercise, to apply any criteria they consider appropriate relating to how they might promote or improve the social, economic or environmental well-being of their area as a result of the procurement. This amendment is unnecessary as it is already possible for relevant authorities to apply such criteria within the limits of procurement law. Any criteria applied beyond these limitations could be unlawful and subject to legal challenge.

Amendment 197FAA would require relevant authorities carrying out a procurement exercise following the acceptance of an expression of interest to consider,

“whether it would be appropriate to include particular restrictions on or requirements of persons bidding in response to the exercise”.

I can reassure noble Lords that this amendment is not necessary to ensure that a local authority can control the identity of the service contractor to which it lets the contract during the life of that contract. It is already standard practice for public contracts to contain a term that any purported transfer by the service contractor of its performance of the contract to another person will lead to termination of the contract.

Local authorities will want to retain control over the identity of the person providing services and will already do that in their service contracts. Even if that were not the case, EU procurement law is strict about a change of identity of the contractor. The substitution of a new contractual partner for the one to which the contracting authority initially awarded the contract could be regarded as a change to an essential term of the public contract in question. This could trigger a new procurement exercise.

We have not sought in these provisions to tell relevant authorities how they should design contracts, and nor should we. We have heard many times in these debates that we should be less prescriptive in what we ask of authorities, while ensuring power is really pushed down to communities. A local authority may already impose restrictions or conditions that apply to all persons bidding, as long as such restrictions or conditions are lawful and do not discriminate between bidders. Any attempt by a local authority commissioning a service to impose conditions or restrictions on some but not all persons bidding in the procurement exercise would risk being unlawful as being discriminatory.

I hope that noble Lords will feel able to withdraw their amendments. Yet, I understand the concerns that many noble Lords have about the Trojan horse issue—whether employees, a charity or someone else is challenging just with the idea of someone else coming in on the exercise. Clearly, all that has been proposed is a community right, and it is all about communities. The question comes when the community has challenged—I suspect that the community will have done that because of dissatisfaction—and the authority then says, “Well, we had better have a procurement exercise”. Certainly, if that exercise is beyond the EU figures there is no question that the exercise will be open. People will have put work in, as will have the community bodies and so forth. However, I do not see circumstances in which that procurement exercise can somehow be limited, because that would be outside the law of the land because of our involvement with the European Community. We must be careful not to kid ourselves about that.

However, having said that, everything in these proposals is about the community’s right. In my view, the community would be exercising that right because it thinks that it can do things better and that the service that it is getting would be better in the future than it received in the past.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

I am pleased that the noble Lord understood the concerns raised on this important group of amendments, spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. Is there nothing that the Minister can offer us in terms of looking at this further? Perhaps he may agree to consult with colleagues and come back at Third Reading.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

What I will say is this: I have been giving some thoughts regarding guidance, to which there has been reference all along. Guidance will be given and notes will be available from the department, but there may be circumstances where that guidance will be, “This is something on which you make your own mind up”. I am sure that the department will cull the debate and look at where offers ought to be made. Certainly, if guidance is required, guidance will be given. However, there will be instances where, because we are talking about localism, local people and people on local authorities will be making their own minds up.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

Before the noble Lord sits down, can I ask whether there is any possibility of guidance being available by Third Reading, even in draft?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

It is extremely unlikely that the noble Lord will get it as quickly as that, but I believe that it will be available before 31 March.

[Lord Greaves]

Before my noble friend sits down and before I stand up, perhaps I may ask a question which has just occurred to me. If a service—for example, the refuse and recycling service—goes out to a contract and it is for well over £156,000, will an existing in-house provider be able to take part in that tendering exercise and compete against outside contractors in exactly the same way as it would under the old compulsory competitive tendering system or under the system in which councils sometimes put out a contract to test the market against their own in-house provision? Under the community right to challenge, if a contract goes out to tender like that, will the in-house provider still be allowed to take part in the exercise or will it be doomed?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

I may need to think about that and write to my noble friend. However, it seems to me that the in-house provider here could be the “two or more employees”. Those in-house people whom my noble friend speaks of would be the group of workers. That is how I think it would be done but, if I am wrong about that, I shall let him know. It seems to me that that is how the challenge would be used. However, if my noble friend is talking about procurement and there is an existing body, I do not see any circumstances in which that existing body will not be able to participate in the procurement exercise. I hope that that is helpful.

[Lord Greaves]

My Lords, I am grateful for that. I realise that my noble friend has not had a chance to think about that question but I think that the issue of “two or more employees” is totally irrelevant in this case. We are talking about a challenge made by an outside body or organisation. The contract is put out to general tender and there is not a two-person or six-person challenge from inside the organisation. There is an existing department full of staff who are currently working for the council and who may or may not be able to take part in the competitive tendering exercise. The more I think about this, the more it seems to be a crucial point, and it would be very helpful if the Minister could come back to us on it. This is a very new point and perhaps some clarification of it at Third Reading, if only to put the Government’s view on it on the record, would be extremely helpful. I hope that that will happen.

There are times when I listen to Ministers reading out their briefing when I think, “If that is the best they can do, I must be on to a good point”. The attempt to rubbish my amendment concerning a service review by suggesting that it would involve consulting every single resident, which would not be possible, was really rather derisory. I do not blame my noble friend for that; he has his briefing to read out. Councils and other bodies consult users of services all the time and they know how to do it. It is not difficult and you do not have to be absolutely certain that you have consulted every single resident. You put out a consultation by whatever means are reasonable. It might be through the internet, leaflets, articles in local newspapers or whatever. Therefore, I thought that that response was a bit pathetic.

The Trojan horse argument is important but the real problem arises when that Trojan horse is accidental. If you get a community that is really keen on taking over a service and it has real local support but the contract has to go out to tender and the community cannot possibly match what an outside commercial organisation can provide in terms of cost, then that community is not going to be very pleased. It is going to say, “We challenged and these people from outside who have come in to make a profit have stolen our services away from us”. They might well have preferred the service to stay with the council rather than for that to happen. That kind of scenario will simply lose public support. It is not about rights for communities, it is about communities potentially being set up to provide rights for the commercial challenges from outside. The advice to councils is going to be absolutely vital. It has got to be clear, it has got to be strong and it has got to provide councils with all the safeguards they need—not to stop communities challenging and taking services over—but to stop it being abused.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hamwee]

I shall not speak at much length. This amendment was tabled at the last stage as well. It would provide for a relevant authority being able to require whatever information it thinks desirable. I dare say my noble friend will confirm that it is not necessary to state this because it is implicit or provided for elsewhere. The reason I am moving it is because I want to quickly comment on some of the things he said in response to the last group. As it was Report stage I could not come back on them then. He said, “It’s all about community”. But what my noble friend and I are saying is that we fear that it is not. I very much welcomed his comment that guidance might well say, “Make your own minds up”. That is exactly what one would want to see. But I wonder if I could suggest to him that guidance might include some sort of flow chart which would assist authorities to understand what they can do and what they cannot do, and what direction they have got to be thinking in. I also say that my noble friend Lord Greaves’s point about how a procurement exercise allows for a tender from the authority—from the in-house service—is very serious. It may be one of those things where the answer is so obvious that none of us can see it because it is blindingly obvious. If it is not obvious, and if it is not answered in a way in which the Minister will understand we would regard as satisfactory, then it is so serious that we must not lose sight of it. We should not discard it now and we should return to it at Third Reading to ensure that it is entirely clear. I hope that will not be necessary. I beg to move.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

These matters are grouped together. I thank the noble Baroness. There are four amendments in the group and two have not been moved. This is the third one and I take it that the fourth will not be moved. On that basis I respond to my noble friend Lady Hamwee.

Amendment 197FC would enable a relevant authority to ask a relevant body for any information it considered desirable in deciding whether to accept or reject an expression of interest. The amendment is unnecessary. Clause 69(1) already enables the Secretary of State to specify in regulations the information to be included in an expression of interest. The majority of respondents to the consultation broadly agreed with our proposals on this and the policy statement placed in the Library of the House sets out the information we intend to specify be included in an expression of interest. This information will enable the authority to decide whether there is one or more grounds for rejection. If expressions of interest do not include any of the required information, we would expect relevant authorities to take a common-sense approach and simply ask for it.

This amendment would enable authorities to place additional requirements, and potentially a disproportionate burden, on relevant bodies, and treat expressions of interest from different relevant bodies differently, which would be unfair and could potentially leave authorities open to challenge. If the experience of implementing the community right to challenge shows that a relevant body may need to provide further information to enable authorities to take a decision on an expression of interest, then we can consider whether we need to amend the regulations to allow for this.

In the circumstances, I trust that my noble friend will feel she does not need to press this amendment. Following her other comments about guidance, I am sure that the resources of the department will provide guidance, flow charts and material in any form that clearly gets over to authorities the information that they need. As I have indicated all along, I believe that all these proposals are right, but, in the event, it is about trust and it is about communities; it is not about exposing big contracts to organisations under the umbrella of something which has been done for communities. I trust that everyone has got that trust and that it will work in this way.

[Baroness Hamwee]

I thank my noble friend for that response. Of course, I shall not press the matter, but I note that he talked in terms of the Secretary of State making regulations which will allow for certain information to be requested. I am looking for a little more individuality than that. However, I shall use this opportunity to add a coda to my point about the in-house service and procurement. I am not asking for an answer now, but I shall put the question on record. In order to take part in it, would the in-house service have to form a separate, new entity in order to be able to bid? That would seem to involve a lot of extra bureaucracy and work, which I do not think any of us would want to see. I shall put my noble friend out of his agony and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Localism Bill

Lord Shutt of Greetland Excerpts

Wednesday 7th September 2011 Lords Chamber

I do not propose to press Amendments 39 and 43 today. However, I reserve the right to test the view of the House when Amendment 45 is called, in the event that we do not receive a coherent and satisfactory answer on this very important point.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for speaking to his amendments, the first of which is Amendment 39. Clause 155 provides a power for central government to make determinations providing for the calculation of a settlement payment in relation to every council that retains its own housing stock. This payment is a mechanism for adjusting each council’s housing debt to a level which it can sustain after meeting the costs of managing and maintaining its stock. It will leave every council in a position to finance its own housing stock from its own rental income without need for subsidy. The clause sets out that these determinations may be calculated according to a formula, and that this formula may include variables relating to income, expenditure needs and levels of existing housing debt.

The methodology that we will use to calculate these settlement payments has been extensively tested and refined with local authorities through two public consultations. It has also been the product of joint working with local authorities and others working in the sector. Subsequent to these consultations, we have issued two detailed policy documents this year confirming our intentions to make full reforms based on the key principles set out in these consultations. These policy documents include the models we will use to value the stock and working drafts of the determinations that we will issue. We will publish a further consultation in November on the final proposals, when we have the latest data.

It is therefore fair to say that this policy has been subject to unusually high levels of public scrutiny and debate. In valuing the business, the expenditure needs are rooted in unit costs identified in independent research which was itself published for consultation. The income assumed is that set out in the Government’s national social rent policy. The settlement payments will reflect the difference between the value of each housing business and its existing housing debt. Where the debt is greater than the valuation, the Government will pay the difference to the council. Where the valuation is higher than the debt, the council will pay the difference to the Government.

The amendment which the noble Lord seeks would remove a degree of discretion available to the Secretary of State in setting the assumptions upon which the determinations will be based. This is unnecessary, as the assumptions will be based on the best information available at the time and have been extensively tested and consulted on. In addition, the determination setting out each settlement payment will be subject to a further consultation this autumn, during which councils will be able to correct any errors. Therefore I trust that this amendment will not be pressed.

On Amendment 43, Clause 157 sets out the practical provisions under which settlement payments should be made. It gives a reserve power to the Secretary of State to charge interest or recoup costs incurred if councils make their settlement payments after the time specified in the determination. I have described these as reserve powers as we do not expect to use them due to the excellent track records councils have in meeting their financial obligations. The noble Lord’s amendment would establish reciprocal arrangements whereby the Secretary of State would make additional payments where any sum payable by the Secretary of State to particular local authorities was not paid on time. I can assure you that the Government will make its payments to local authorities on time.

That sounds grand, so I thought I would check it out a bit further. Presently housing revenue account subsidy is paid in 10 instalments in the year, and is paid on time. When councils receive regular revenue support grant, it is paid and it is paid on time. On the rare occasions, for some technical reason, it has not happened on time, the Government have voluntarily paid compensation. The determination setting out the payment date will be issued by the Government and detailed arrangements for the day have already been set out by the Department for Communities and Local Government in the policy document Self-financing: Planning the Transition, which was issued this July. Therefore, I do not believe that this amendment is necessary, and I trust it will not be pressed.

On Amendment 45, we had some discussion on these areas on Monday and we already debated the power we are taking to set a cap on housing debt as part of our reforms. As I noted previously, Clause 158 is not a minor or technical part of these reforms, it is integral to protecting the Government’s central fiscal priority—to bring public borrowing under control. I understand that many councils do not want a centrally imposed limit on their ability to borrow for housing, but our reforms must not risk undermining national fiscal policy on public debt. Self-financing will give local authorities direct control over a rent income stream of around £6 billion a year. This could potentially be used to finance a large increase in public sector debt. It is not possible to say confidently how many councils might choose to borrow more but we know that councils will start out under self-financing with much less debt per dwelling than housing associations with similar costs and incomes. It is just not possible to take the risk that this deal might drive a big increase in public sector debt.

Noble Lords have asked why the prudential borrowing rules are not sufficient to protect against this. The prudential borrowing rules have worked very well but, as I said previously, our concern is not that local authorities will act in ways that are imprudent locally, it is that in aggregate these borrowing decisions may be unaffordable nationally. The amendment tabled by the noble Lord would remove this specific cap on housing borrowing and replace it with a power for the Secretary of State to issue guidance or regulations under the Local Government Act 2003. The Act does include powers to cap the debt of individual local authorities, but these are,

“for the purpose of ensuring that the authority does not borrow more than it can afford”.

As I have said, our concern is not that a council would borrow more than it can afford, it is that in aggregate councils may borrow more than the country can afford. The bespoke powers we are taking ensure that this cap will apply only to housing debt and not to any other borrowing by local authorities. Indeed, I have some sympathy with the intentions but I have to resist the amendment and I trust that it will not be pressed.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his very detailed, if predictable, reply. In relation to Amendment 45, I honestly do not think that he has reasonably addressed that point about the power that already exists with the Secretary of State being able, for national economic reasons—which is why he wants it in this clause—to set limits in relation to the borrowing of money by local authorities. That power is there. Why is an additional power needed? I do not think that the noble Lord has dealt sufficiently with that point.

As regards Amendment 43, as I understand it the proposition is that should the Government be late with their payments for technical or any other reasons, as has happened albeit infrequently in the past, they will make a voluntary payment. Is that on the record and what we are dealing with here? The amendment simply seeks to enshrine that formally in legislation. But, as I have said, I will not push that point if the noble Lord is putting on the record that in those circumstances the Government anticipate keeping local authorities whole.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

That would be the anticipation but the idea is that the Government pay on the dot at the appropriate time.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Of course it is. One would hope that they do and I accept that overwhelmingly they have, under the current subsidy system. But it is good to have that clearly on the record.

As to Amendment 39, I recognise and understand that there has been extensive consultation around these important provisions and that there is more to come. I was seeking to get a better view on the extent to which there may still be disagreement challenges over the technical aspects of how the settlements are proposed. What is the process for settling that? Consultation is all very well but it is a question of how the Government respond to that if there are at least residual challenges about those calculations. As I have said, I do not propose to press Amendment 39. We will see where those future consultations and discussions lead us. I made my point in relation to Amendment 43 and we have something on the record.

I am inclined not to push Amendment 45 today, although I urge the Minister to give us a better explanation of why proposed new subsection (4) is not sufficient to cover what the Government seek to achieve. Without that, I give no guarantee that I will not seek to bring that point back at Third Reading.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank the five noble Lords who have spoken and I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Best, and his work in housing over many years. The business of the amount gained when houses are sold and how the money is used is a subject that many of us have been debating for most of our years in public life.

What we have here is a total, and there are trade-offs in this element of the Bill. Although I understand the intention behind proposed new Clause 51, which is to end the surrender to central government of 75 per cent of receipts from the sale of right-to-buy and similar houses, and although I appreciate councils’ disappointment that we have not been able to end the policy, its continuation is necessary to help with the country’s huge fiscal deficit. The Government have ensured that the viability of the self-financing settlement is not affected by the decision. We are compensating local authorities for loss of rental income from future right-to-buy sales. To do this, we have included a forecast of right-to-buy sales in our valuation. The level of debt that authorities will take on has consequently been reduced in our latest estimate, as the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, indicated, by £862 million. In addition, all councils will still retain 25 per cent of receipts. They will also be able to retain 100 per cent of receipts from other sales to spend locally on affordable housing or regeneration. It is worth noting that receipts generated from right-to-buy sales have rapidly declined, sales being now about 5 per cent of what they were at their peak.

I hope the noble Lord will draw some comfort from the fact that we issued a consultation on 25 August, which set out proposed amendments to the regulations governing the use of receipts arising from the disposal of council housing assets. We have proposed to amend the regulations to make it clear that the requirement to surrender 75 per cent of receipts to central government shall apply only to receipts arising from right-to-buy sales or sales that are right-to-buy in all but name: that is, sales to existing council tenants. Sales at market value to other purchasers could then be retained, provided they were spent on affordable housing, regeneration projects or paying off housing debt. I trust that that is helpful and, bearing it in mind, that the amendment will not be pressed.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

The Minister said that the Government were reducing the level of debt that local authorities would otherwise take on because of this policy by some £860 million. Does it follow that central government debt is correspondingly £860 million higher than it would otherwise have been, and how does that help deficit reduction?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

I might have to think that one through, because I see the contra. On the other hand, there is only one central Government. The problem that we have all along is that some 170 local government entities are involved in housing. At least you know where you are with central government and that £862 million. The position can be entirely different in local government.

I would like to think that there will be a time when this policy is not in place. However, as I indicated, it is no longer the big deal that it was, given that so many former council houses have been sold and the amounts coming in are nothing like they were at their peak, when this Government were not in business.

[Lord Best]

My Lords, the housing revenue account is often compared to the Schleswig-Holstein question. Of the only three people who understood it, one had committed suicide, one was in a madhouse and one was in a monastery. Following the debate on the housing revenue account today has been a bit like that.

I am very grateful to noble Lords who have spoken on this. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, made two fundamental points. First, if only we had kept the receipts during the past 30 years, we could have built a lot of houses and renovated a lot more. That money has evaporated. If we could get that changed henceforth, that would be thoroughly commendable. The noble Lord also made the point that if local authorities had been able to sell vacant properties on some of their estates on the open market, they could have introduced people on different incomes and created mixed-tenure estates, which would have been better socially for everyone concerned. However, there is absolutely no reason why local authorities would do that, because they would lose all the money that they received from the sale and could not then replace the home that they had sold. I am very grateful for that intervention and for those of the noble Lords, Lord Beecham and Lord McKenzie.

I shall certainly bank the very important point that in respect of sales outside the right to buy—the voluntary sales by local authorities—the intention is that in future the levy will be lifted. That could be quite a significant change in the future. The leader of the London Borough of Hammersmith & Fulham, Councillor Stephen Greenhalgh, is very much in favour of this. He explained to me that he has properties which, going back to the days of municipalisation, are scattered in some streets and are now in need of substantial repairs or improvements, although they are also very valuable. Rather than spend a great deal of money on some of those properties when they become vacant, it would be much better for Hammersmith & Fulham to sell them on the open market and not spend the money on the repairs. That money would be recycled, getting two or three flats elsewhere for the price received for those properties in Parsons Green or wherever they happened to be in Hammersmith & Fulham. Therefore, the Minister’s concession here may open some opportunities for councils to take in receipts to recycle in a very meaningful way, and I am very grateful for that concession.

In relation to the right to buy, we live to fight another day. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, the amendment proposed by my noble friend Lady Hollis is most interesting and has considerable merit. She has considerable experience in the local government and social housing sectors. Where tenants want to make major improvements or improve other amenities, I can see the case for this being financed by an increase in the rent paid on the property. My noble friend makes compelling points in particular regarding fuel poverty and green energy and also dealing with the issue of housing benefit. If the Government are not able to accept the amendment, will the noble Lord at least agree to take it away and reflect on it? It could be explored further and perhaps introduced at another time following discussion with relevant departments.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness and the noble Lord for their contributions. It is more complicated than I thought. The amendment is clearly about additional facilities requested by the tenant, yet the points made by the noble Baroness have been about solar panels and, basically, energy. Clearly the amendment is about any form of enhancement required by a tenant. All I would say on the detail is that my noble friend Lady Hanham has shown me a letter that she wrote to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, on 9 August offering to discuss this matter. She may not have got the letter or something may have gone wrong, but this offer has not yet been taken up. My noble friend Lady Hanham would be happy to discuss the matter and that could well be a helpful way forward. I cannot give a commitment on where that would lead, but I think it would be a good thing if that offer were taken up.

I cannot accept the amendment because it would allow landlords complete freedom to charge rents above the target rent for particular properties in order to fund the cost of additional facilities. This would lead to an unacceptable rise in the housing benefit bill. There are two types of landlord to whom the amendment could apply: local authority landlords and housing associations. Both sectors are able to exercise some flexibility over rent setting but are subject to important constraints. In the case of local authority landlords, there is the “limit rent”, which is the maximum that the Department for Work and Pensions is willing to pay in housing benefit. This cap is vital to control the welfare bill. For housing associations, a direction on rent is set each year by the regulator in order to achieve a degree of consistency in rent levels across the sector and to protect the housing benefit bill. Noble Lords may not be aware of this, but for two-thirds of all tenants in council and housing association properties, the rent comes from housing benefit. So it clearly would be significant.

The noble Baroness’s amendment would remove an important control by Government over rents, which they will largely pay for. While this could pay for some improvements, it would result in uncontrollable increases in the housing benefit bill that we can ill afford. Furthermore, there would be no assurance that the taxpayer was obtaining value for money from the additional public expenditure. For this reason, I must reject the amendment. Councils and housing associations can charge affordable rents of up to 80 per cent of market rents as part of an agreement with the Homes and Communities Agency to build new homes. The extra rent must be used entirely to fund the new homes, which will produce a housing benefit saving as they are still at rents below those charged in the market.

I hope that, in the circumstances, the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, will take up the offer from my noble friend Lady Hanham and that on this occasion she will not press her amendment.

Localism Bill

Lord Shutt of Greetland Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I understand that point but it seems to be being proposed that the outcome of an appeal is somehow prejudged, and that some will have satisfactory outcomes with which we are happy but others will not. I pick up the proposition that the planning inspectorate colludes to try to achieve government policy in respect of renewables. As I have said before, I was a Minister in CLG for a very short period. All Ministers get the opportunity—if that is the right word—to deal with inspectors’ reports. Certainly, my experience of probably no more than half a dozen such reports is that they were very thorough and very balanced. Some recommended that an appeal should be accepted, others did not. My experience is that a professional approach was taken to the matter. I certainly did not detect any perceived pressure on the inspectorate to achieve one outcome rather than another, so it is rather unfortunate to suggest that the opposite is the case. I am very well aware that supermarkets push their luck through the planning system but they get knocked back. That seems to me to validate the process that we have.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Reay, and other noble Lords who have taken part in the discussion on this amendment. It is accepted practice that all parties to an appeal should normally meet their own costs, but cost awards may be made by the planning inspectorate if a party behaves unreasonably. There are no special circumstances that apply to onshore wind farm appeals compared with appeals against other forms of development, nor is it clear why there should be. This proposal to require appellants to pay all parties’ costs for onshore wind farm appeals will treat wind farms differently from any other types of development. It would create pressure to extend the provision to other types of development. What will it achieve? Is it meant to encourage more proposals for wind farms to be refused, irrespective of their merits? Local planning authorities will already consider whether a proposed wind farm is acceptable in terms of their development plan and other considerations. These can include national planning policy and relevant planning issues raised by local communities.

I appreciate that wind farms can be controversial, but that in itself is not a reason to refuse them. Wind farm developers, like local communities, should expect a level playing field. Local planning authorities should be confident in refusing development that is clearly contrary to an up-to-date development plan, and defending their decision at appeal. It is our intention that local plans will become more prominent in decision- making, and there should be a presumption in favour of sustainable development at the heart of the planning system.

I have just been handed a note that the Minister is to revise the costs awards circular—circular 03/09—to make sure that it is clear that where a local planning authority refuses a development proposal on the grounds that it is contrary to an up-to-date development plan and there is no issue of conflict with national planning policy, there should be no grounds for an award of costs against the local planning authority.

I trust that with these remarks the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Reay]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend the Minister for his concluding remarks, although I am rather surprised that he should have received this as a last-minute piece of information from his officials considering that this amendment has been down for quite a considerable amount of time.

I am grateful for what he said; I would like to study the implications of it. I can understand that he does not wish to make any distinction between wind farm developments and any other form of planning application. That really relates to the issue of renewable development which the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, said was no matter for this Bill. He might say that to some of his noble friends when they try and introduce an obligation to pay more attention to climate change and what should be done about it, because that is an example of exactly the same thing.

I am extremely grateful to my noble friend Lord Marlesford for his support, and to the noble Lord, Lord Judd. I entirely agree with him: planning is a matter of getting the balance right. The party opposite is rightly proud of what the planning system has achieved in this country. It has preserved the countryside from, among other things, ribbon development and inappropriate high-rises. All of us are now proud of that consequence, and it is extremely important that we succeed in the future in maintaining the balance that is implied by that, and that we do not give overriding consideration to some overarching concern like renewable energy. On that basis, I am happy to withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I have a deal of sympathy with the position of the noble Lord, but I am constrained by our Front Bench position. A proposition which gives more power to the Secretary of State to dictate is something we would draw back from. The noble Lord made some crucial points, however. We are already concerned about what the withdrawal of regional spatial strategies has done to strategic planning and affordable housing. Until the noble Lord spoke I had probably not focused sufficiently on its impact on Gypsy and Traveller families. It will be interesting to see if the duty for authorities to co-operate produces anything like a solution. I suspect that it will not.

The Government are focused on financial incentives as part of their approach to housing. I do not think the new homes bonus would bite directly but perhaps it is interesting to pursue whether financial incentives for local authorities would encourage them to do what they should be doing, which is to take and make available their share of provision for this disadvantaged section of our community.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, it would be impossible to respond to my noble friend's amendment without paying tribute to his lifetime's support to Gypsies, Travellers and those in housing need.

The previous Government's model of top-down pitch targets has not delivered. Between 2000 and 2010, the number of caravans on unauthorised developments increased from 728 to 2,395. That is the caravan count published by DCLG. Local authorities are best placed to assess the needs of their communities, including Travellers. Our proposed planning policy asks local authorities to set targets for Traveller sites that are underpinned by a strong evidence base. The policy set out clear consequences for those authorities which do not make available land to meet the need that they have identified. The duty to co-operate will ensure that local authorities continue to work together on strategic issues. It will require local planning authorities, county councils and other public bodies to engage constructively, actively, and on an ongoing basis in the planning process. Local authorities will be required to demonstrate compliance with the duty as part of the public examination of local plans. If an authority cannot demonstrate that it has complied with the duty, its plan will not pass the independent examination.

A policy-led approach is a more appropriate one through which to address provision of sites through the planning system. The national, regional and local need for accommodation for Travellers would be a relevant material consideration for the decision-maker in any event. The planning, compulsory purchase and town and country planning Acts require that planning decisions are made in accordance with the development plan unless material considerations indicate otherwise. Any consideration which relates to the use or development of land is capable of being a material consideration.

On Amendment 182, which is linked with Amendments 170B and 170C in the Marshalled List, the majority of new Traveller sites are small, private ones provided by Travellers themselves, not local authorities. That meets community aspirations on tenure, and their small size can aid integration with the settled community. A duty for local authorities to provide sites would therefore not be appropriate.

That was the finding of a recent Equality and Human Rights Commission report, entitled Assessing Local Authorities’ Progress in Meeting the Accommodation Needs of Gypsy and Traveller Communities in England and Wales: 2010 Update. The DCLG-chaired, cross-government ministerial working group on Gypsy and Traveller inequality includes a work stream to encourage new development of small, private sites and better publicity of the success of existing small private sites. That work was included following consultation with members and representatives of the Travelling community, among whom there is a consensus that such site accommodation is preferable to public sites provision.

The planning system is therefore the key place to deliver the provision. The Government published our proposed new planning policy for Traveller sites on 13 April. It tells local authorities to use a robust evidence base of local need, to set targets for sites and identify land to meet those targets. The draft policy is out to consultation. When I got the notes, they said until 6 July, but it has been pushed on to 3 August, so if noble Lords want to give their views, they are welcome to do so and have until 3 August. Local authorities are subject to a statutory duty under Section 225 of the Housing Act 2004 to carry out an assessment of the accommodation needs of Gypsies and Travellers residing in or resorting to their district when they are undertaking a review of housing need in their district under Section 8 of the Housing Act 1985. All local authorities prepare Gypsy and Traveller accommodation assessments under that duty, and some, such as Somerset County Council, have begun undertaking new assessments of need for Travellers residing in or resorting to their areas.

Given my response, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Avebury]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for drawing attention to the duty to co-operate. However, I do not attach any great confidence to that when you consider what has happened in the Essex region. Basildon has a large number of Gypsies and Travellers, more than it would have been asked to provide for under the previous Government’s system, and other local authorities within the county have done nothing whatever. Although this duty has been passed, there is no method for compelling the other local authorities to comply with it, so I do not consider it very effective.

I am most grateful to my noble friend for his reply and for the kind remarks that he made about the work that I have done over the past 47 years on behalf of Gypsies and Travellers. If I do not get anywhere with this Bill, it will be a major disappointment. We have been here before, in 1994, when the 1968 Act was torn up. For many years after that, hardly anything happened at all. We were beginning to make some progress under the previous legislation. My noble friend said that the figures between 2000 and 2010 show that there was an increase in the number of unauthorised encampments and developments. However, looking at the last three years, the number was beginning to decline as a result of circular 01/06 and the obligations that had been placed on local authorities to carry out a detailed assessment of the numbers of Gypsies and Travellers who should be accommodated because they were residing in or resorting to the area. That was followed by extensive public inquiries and the redistribution of the obligation between the local authorities in an area.

Now the Government have decided—the Minister reiterated this—that local authorities are to be required to set targets for Traveller sites. I am asking why they would bother to do that when they have already done it. They have consulted experts and arrived at figures that have been validated by these public inquiries. Therefore, I am afraid that I do not attach very much confidence to what my noble friend said. Although I will comply with his request to cut my remarks short on this occasion, I intend to return to this issue on Report. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, as ever, we come back to this whole business of things being decided locally. I thank noble Lords who have taken part in the debate. This is my third appearance today and I am having, once again, to suggest that these amendments are not ones that the Government wish to support at this stage. Planning has got a key role to play in creating the conditions for economic recovery. We should not lightly agree to any measures that add uncertainty, cost and delay to recovery and growth. Development that is permitted after consultation with communities and consideration by the local planning authority should not have unnecessary hurdles placed in its way. A similar amendment seeking a community right of appeal was considered in the other House. In the relatively small number of cases where a decision is made that grants planning permission that is not in accordance with the development plan, it is only right that the locally elected planning authority should make that decision and not the Planning Inspectorate. The local planning authority is ultimately responsible for exercising its judgment in reaching a decision. Safeguards are already built in to the system of decision-making. Applicants will have invested considerable time, money and effort in preparing their proposals. They should expect the local planning authority’s decision to be a corporate one and not subject to challenge by other members of the council.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Reay, that the plan should be the starting point for the determination of a planning application. Legislation already provides for this. Local planning authorities should feel confident in defending planning decisions made in accordance with an up-to-date plan, if challenged at appeal. Where appeals are made, the Secretary of State must operate within the law. As a decision-maker, he is entitled to take other material considerations into account when reaching his decision. This is essential if we are to ensure that the planning system creates the conditions for economic recovery and sustainable development. Material considerations may change over time and should not be tightly defined, as this amendment seeks to do. The amendment on determination of appeals goes too far. It is unnecessary and will have a negative impact on growth and sustainable development. I hope the noble Lord appreciates why we do not therefore accept it.

The noble Lord put it to me that I might be tempted. Words have been spoken about why there may be changes in position—I am not aware whether there are any such changes, but I understand what has been said and accept it. All I would say is that at 5 pm on 20 July, I do not think I am in a position to say that we will accept this. However, the rest of July and August beckons and I do recommend that noble Lords use it well. If they believe that they have got concerns that can be drawn to the notice of the Government about ways that this Bill may be still further changed, I recommend that they use their endeavours. This is, as I have said before, Committee stage, but I trust that in the circumstances at the moment, the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

[Lord Reay]

I will say one thing in reply to what the noble Lord, Lord Judd, said about planning officers. I have no intention of denigrating planning officers. They do an invaluable job and can be highly impressive. However, their job on the whole is to advise the democratically elected planning authorities. The amendment would put them in quite a different position, unlike the position that they normally occupy. However, in view of what the Minister has said, I am happy, for the moment at least, to withdraw my amendment.