Deregulation Bill

Lord Sharkey Excerpts

Tuesday 18th November 2014 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Sharkey]

89: Clause 82, page 58, line 14, at end insert—
“(2) This section and paragraphs 1 to 39, 41 and 42 of Schedule 20 may not come into force until the three conditions set out in subsections (3) to (5) are met.
(3) The first condition is that the Law Commission and the Scottish Law Commission (“the Law Commissions”) have reported on whether each item of legislation to be repealed by paragraphs 1 to 39, 41 and 42 of Schedule 20 is, or may be, of practical use; or is no longer of practical use.
(4) The second condition is that the reports of the Law Commissions under subsection (3) have been laid before each House of Parliament.
(5) The third condition is that the Secretary of State has, by regulations made by statutory instrument, removed from the list of legislation to be repealed in Schedule 20 any provisions which the Law Commissions have reported are, or may be, of practical use.
(6) A statutory instrument containing regulations under subsection (5) may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.
(7) Paragraph 40 of Schedule 20 comes into force on the day on which this Act is passed.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sharkey]

My Lords, I move Amendment 89 and shall speak briefly to Amendments 103 and 104. Amendment 89 deals with Clause 82 and Schedule 20.

Clause 82 is very short. It contains 17 words. It asserts that the laws listed in Schedule 20 are no longer of any practical use and it repeals or amends them all. Schedule 20 is in 10 parts and runs to more than seven pages. It lists at least 84 pieces of primary legislation, seven of which are whole Acts, and eight pieces of secondary legislation. Those numbers will rise in a moment when the Minister moves Amendments 91 and 92, which, at this late stage in the Bill, add a further two pieces of secondary legislation and another three whole Acts to the list of repeals.

Schedule 20 and the Minister’s further additions today are a widely varied and miscellaneous collection. They range from apparently obvious candidates for repeal to deeply complicated amendments. It is probably not dangerous to repeal the 22 sections of the Town Police Clauses Act 1847, creating as it does offences to do with every person who rolls or carries a cask, every person who beats or shakes any carpet, every person who keeps a pigsty and even—the politician’s favourite—every person who flies a kite.

However, most of the provisions in Schedule 20 are not like that. They are repeals of complicated sections of Acts or of whole Acts themselves. There is even one Schedule 20 provision to be repealed which seems not to be “not any longer of practical use”. That is paragraph 40, which repeals Section 13 of the Defamation Act 1996, which allows an individual litigant in defamation cases to waive the ban in Article 9 of the Bill of Rights on proceedings in Parliament being impeached or questioned in court.

That section of the Defamation Act has been much discussed by your Lordships and the Commons, and I support its removal. However, this section is still of practical use. We are removing it because we think that it is wrong, not because it is useless. It may be in the wrong place in the Bill.

In its report, the Joint Committee recommended that items in what was then Schedule 16 be referred to the Law Commissions for confirmation that they are in fact no longer of practical use. We did that because we felt that:

“The skills, research and consultation needed to ensure that Parliament, external organisations and the public can be satisfied that a piece of legislation is genuinely obsolete strongly suggest that the Law Commissions are better placed to conduct that work than Government departments. Added to which, the independence of the Law Commissions from Government and their track record since 1965 reinforce the trust that Parliament places in the … Law Commission Bills including SLR Bills”.

The point here is this. Whom do we trust to certify that Acts or parts of Acts are genuinely no longer of any practical use? Should it be the department’s assessment agreed by a Minister, or should it be by an independent body, such as the Law Commission, to ensure thoroughness of inquiry and absence of any suspicion of political bias? Or should it be Parliament itself? Parliament has not thought so, for good reason. To examine in exhaustive detail the possible consequences of repeals would overwhelm Parliament and would reintroduce the possibility of suspicion of political motivation. That is why Parliament delegated the job to the Law Commissions and why it approved an accelerated procedure for Law Commission Bills.

In the present case, as this Bill passed through the Commons, there was no real discussion of Schedule 16, which is now Schedule 20. So the question resolves itself into this: is it better to accept, without evidence or supporting argument and without substantive discussion, the Government’s assertion that the items in Schedule 20 are really no longer of any practical use or is it better to let the uniquely qualified and independent Law Commission certify that for us? The Joint Committee thought that the second option was better but the Government did not agree. In their response to the Joint Committee’s report, they made three points.

First, they noted that Governments frequently repeal legislation. However, they do not say how frequently this extends to the en-bloc repeal of over 90 items of legislation. Secondly, they disagree on whether departments have the expertise to determine whether legislation is obsolete or to know the importance of accuracy and giving consideration to saving transitional or consequential provisions. Here, they are pleading not guilty to something that they have not been accused of. The Joint Committee simply noted that the Law Commission was better qualified for this task than the departments are. The Government also make no mention in their response of the importance of having independent judgment, free from the possibility of the suspicion of political bias. Thirdly, they agree that some of the provisions in the then Schedule 16 are the type of repeal candidates that can be referred to the Law Commissions. They do not say which or how many.

When the Joint Committee heard evidence from the Law Commission, we were impressed not only by its obvious independence and professionalism but by its willingness to take on more work. We were also struck by the fact that in its last trawl of government departments for suggestions for repeal to be included in the forthcoming SLR Bill, none of the items now in Schedule 20 was put forward. When we asked the Government why this was so, they gave two reasons. In his letter to the committee of 5 November 2013, Mr Clarke noted that the Law Commission generally brings forward an SLR Bill every four years, with the last being in 2012 and the next in 2016. However, as departments have been asked to implement Red Tape Challenge measures in this Parliament, he went on to say that there are a number of such measures in Schedule 20. He did not say which.

Mr Clarke also told us that the existence of legislation that is no longer of practical use had come to light in the course of mainstream departmental work and that the Bill provides the Government with an appropriate legislative vehicle to repeal it and rationalise the statute book. Neither of those points quite answers the question of why none of the Schedule 20 items was referred to the Law Commission when it asked in June 2011 for proposals for repeal.

The Law Commission has also received no suggestions for repeal at all from the Red Tape Challenge people, the Better Regulation Executive. All this raises another question: “What’s the rush?”. Why cannot the Schedule 20 items be left to the independent review of the Law Commissions to decide whether they really are obsolete or not? The Joint Committee asked the Law Commission how long it would take for it to review the legislation in Schedule 20. The answer was that it would probably take between four and 12 months. What is the problem with waiting that long? In previous Committee sessions the noble Lord, Lord Deben, whom I am sorry not to see in his place, and other noble Lords have wondered whether parts of the Bill are there simply so that the Government can say that they have repealed so many pieces of allegedly burdensome legislation, and that this can be a big number.

The situation that we find ourselves in is this. The Government are proposing the wholesale repeal of at least 84 pieces of primary legislation and seven pieces of secondary legislation. If the Bill passes as it stands, this legislation will be repealed without any real examination by Parliament or any examination at all by the Law Commissions. The Government assert that the departments are qualified to make a proper assessment of whether the candidates for appraisal are obsolete. This is an unevidenced assertion but, even if true, it does not mean that they are best qualified. We have heard nothing to suggest that the departments’ assessments are as deep, as consultative or as rigorous as the assessments made by the Law Commissions.

Of course, any departmental assessment approved by a Minister leaves the whole process open to the suspicion of political bias. This is not an independent assessment process; by contrast, assessment by the Law Commission is exactly that. It is independent of government and it has a statutory duty to apply the three tests of external expertise, impartiality and independence in its SLR function. How does a departmental and ministerial review pass these three tests?

Furthermore, the process of assessment and review by the Law Commission is extremely rigorous. It involves research and consultation, and it finishes in a report and a draft Bill. The research phase tests each repeal candidate—there may well be more than a hundred in any repeals project, although there are fewer than that in Schedule 20—to check whether any of it is of any practical utility. This includes checking parliamentary records, including the original debates, examining other public records and studying a range of legal and historical works to provide context and background information. The research is then written up and issued as a consultation paper to people in central and local government, in industry and elsewhere. This consultation typically goes on for up to three months, dealing with inquiries and responses. After the consultation, the report and draft Bill are produced. This is all very rigorous and very thorough, as it must be if we are to be certain that legislation is really no longer of any practical use.

However, this raises a question about departmental assessments. Can the Minister say whether the departments followed the same process? Was there consultation and, if so, with whom? Are there written reports for the proposed repeal candidates? If so, can we see them before Report? On the one hand, we have the Government’s unevidenced assertion that it is safe to repeal the legislation in Schedule 20; on the other hand, we have the Joint Committee’s recommendation that these items be referred for rigorous, impartial and independent review to the Law Commission for certification that it is safe to repeal them. We know that it would take the commission only between four and 12 months to do this. So, again, why the rush? Why not give these pieces of legislation the kind of scrutiny Parliament set up the Law Commission to provide? The Joint Committee thought there was a strong case for doing exactly that.

Amendment 89 proposes exactly what the Joint Committee recommended. Amendment 103 accepts the repeal of Section 13 of the Defamation Act 1996 by exempting it from the provisions of Amendment 89. Amendment 104 makes Clause 82 and Schedule 20 come into force in accordance with the provisions of Amendment 89. I beg to move.

Amendment 90 (to Amendment 89) not moved.

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[Lord Sharkey]

I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken and to the Minister for his reply, apart from his reply to my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale in the last sentence. It is the case, despite the Minister’s assertions, that the items in Schedule 20 have not really been subject to scrutiny in any meaningful sense. I agree, of course, that we have now taken up more than three minutes of parliamentary time by discussing the items in Schedule 20, but we have not actually discussed or examined the items themselves in any detail. What we have discussed is whether they should be there in the first place, which is of course not the same thing.

The argument that interested parties essentially would have complained if they had found any faults—a kind of way of saying “The dog did not bark, so clearly these are okay”—makes me wonder, in a way, why we need any kind of parliamentary scrutiny or scrutiny by the Law Commission at all. We could just say “The dog has barked” or not and carry on that way. I do not think that that would work. On waiting for interested dogs—or interested parties—to bark there are, of course, interested parties but the difference between them and the Law Commission is that the Law Commission is precisely not an interested party.

In closing, there are some questions that the Minister did not answer. Perhaps I could persuade him to write to me, in particular about departmental processes, which are at the heart of the matter, the processes that these proposals have gone through and how those processes in fact impact with the processes that the Law Commission itself would use. It would be very helpful to know how those compared.

The real question, however, and I do not think that the Minister touched on this at all, is one that I asked twice, which is: “Why the rush?”. I do not understand why we have to rush this when we know that the Law Commissions could do this in between four and 12 months.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

I am grateful to my noble friend for giving way. First, the amendment does not make any requirement on the Law Commissions to do this, so there is no guarantee that it will be done within the next six to 12 months. Secondly, these are matters which have been out in the public domain since the summer of 2013. By the time that this Bill proceeds to Royal Assent, it will be the best part of 18 months, if not longer. I do not consider that a rush.

[Lord Sharkey]

To answer my noble and learned friend’s first point, I will certainly alter the amendment to make sure that the Law Commissions are required to do it in the appropriate time, and I am grateful for that advice. I do not propose to go any further on the issue of rush because I do not think that our minds are meeting on this. I meant the rush to do it without certification, not just getting it done. That seems to me the heart of the matter. Given that we are in Grand Committee, I beg leave to withdraw and may return to this at a later stage.

Amendment 89 withdrawn.