Football Governance Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Shamash and Lord Mann

Committee stage
Monday 16th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shamash (Lab)]

My Lords, I am a very happy Manchester United fan. The last few minutes of yesterday’s game were bliss; they reminded us of what happened in 1999 when we won the treble.

I rise to talk again in relation to supporters’ trusts. I have been pressing this; I pressed it in debate the last week and, indeed, at Second Reading. The supporters’ trusts should be there on the face of the Bill. As I mentioned last week, there are 149 supporters’ trusts in the pyramid. Nearly all of them are recognised by the FCA and they operate under the Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies Act.

I ask my noble friend the Minister: why reinvent the wheel? We have a structure that works; it works very well indeed. I would ask that my amendment, “including supporters’ trusts”, be accepted. We understand—we are not trying to be prescriptive—that there will be other fan groups and people who might like to become involved in communicating with the club, but, having supporters’ trusts that exist throughout the UK, it would be a very sensible and easy move to make. I hope this amendment will be accepted.

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

My Lords, there is nothing wrong with supporters’ trusts, but working-class fans have other models as well, historically and currently; that voice also needs to be heard. Supporters’ trusts are one model and should be empowered, but they are only one model for football.

I have eight amendments here more or less doing the same thing. There is an issue here, which the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, alluded to and spoke to, with the fan advisory boards. There is a fundamental choice here, and I would advise the Government to be careful with the politics of this. Some clubs are choosing the fans to go on their fan advisory board; it is not the fans choosing the representation but the clubs. That is one model, but it is many miles away from the Crouch review. It is the total opposite of what fans would hope to see. The fans in this country have not gone for the German model and demanded comparative boards, 50% et cetera, supervisory boards, and that kind of power in relation to the clubs.

I have helped to establish a range of Jewish supporters’ groups. These are Jewish supporters who want no more than to be meeting up with other Jewish supporters of their club—full stop. But they do hope as well to be able to give the occasional bit of advice, sometimes very productively and positively, to their club—if the club does not refuse, as one has, to recognise a large group of Jewish supporters who simply want to be themselves—and, if there are any issues, they want to be listened to. It might be about the provision of kosher food, or ticketing policy, or that there are a lot of fixtures on a Friday night and people are finding it difficult to be religiously observant and still be able to go. It might be to do with giving advice on issues relating to racism within the stadium. On issues like these, this is a group that should be listened to; it is not a group that should have the power to tell a club what to do.

But the idea that fan advisory boards should be chosen by the club is anathema to fans. Fans are perfectly capable of choosing their own representatives. Let us think about what will happen if this Bill goes forward and the regulator has powers, but clubs can still say to fans, “No, we will choose who the fan voices will be. We will pick persons 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. They will be there under our criteria. You, the fans, will have no say”. What will happen is that conflict will emerge, and the Government will not come out of the conflict well. The perception will be that the Government had the chance to ensure this.

Let us think about a supporters’ trust, made up of people giving of their free time to organise. As a member, you elect whoever to be your representatives, and they are then your representative; it is not the club coming in and saying, “No, we will pick Lord Shamash because we love Lord Shamash. If he is elected, that is all well and good because he represents what we would like to see in Manchester United”. That would be an invidious position for anyone to be in. I hope the Minister can give some reassurance that the fan voice on those big issues—moving the ground, changing the colour, changing the name—will actually be a fan voice. If it is not, then government and Parliament will become unpopular at some stage.

Football Governance Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Shamash and Lord Mann

Committee stage
Monday 9th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shamash (Lab)]

My Lords, Amendment 80 in my name seeks to include football supporters’ trusts on the face of the Bill to ensure that they are consulted on all matters relating to fan engagement as set out in the Bill. It is not intended to restrict the regulator, as the Bill states, or to restrict other fan groups being involved.

I declare an interest in that I am currently a director of Manchester United Supporters Trust and was its former chairman over the past decade. It is a very substantial trust with over 100,000 members, and initially came into being in 1998 in opposition to the Murdoch bid for the club, followed by the bitterly opposed leveraged takeover by the Glazer family in 2005. However, in the last decade, the trust has developed a constructive relationship with senior management which delivers fan consultation and representation for supporters. Supporters’ trusts are uniquely equipped to perform this role, and every club would benefit from engaging with such a body.

Currently, there are 149 supporters’ trusts across the football pyramid: 16 in the Premier League, 18 in the Championship, 20 in League One, 15 in League Two and 80 in non-league football. Most, if not all, trusts are registered with the FCA and operate under the Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies Act 2014.

I invite my noble friend the Minister to accept this amendment on the basis that supporters’ trusts provide an existing substantive platform for fans to have a voice in club decisions. It is a structure that should be utilised to the benefit of football as a whole. It is an existing and vibrant structure that I envisage the independent regulator would welcome working with from the outset.

It is important for the Committee to appreciate the many facets of supporters’ trusts and how they contribute to football as a whole. Invariably, the trusts are democratically elected, operating, as I have said, under FCA-approved constitution and rules. They help to ensure the interests of the wider fan base and community they represent. This is vital in sustaining the contact with fans and in the case of smaller clubs.

Trusts often emphasise local community values and initiatives. The trust can help to maintain strong ties with the local fan base, fostering a sense of belonging and identity. This is relevant to the Premier League as well as non-league clubs. Many clubs have charitable foundations that, in my experience, work closely with their trusts. Foundations work with local schools, using their links with the club to assist teachers in their roles. Many also support local food banks.

Trusts, by raising funds through their membership and donations, can contribute to the financial health of the club. This can be particularly beneficial in the smaller clubs that face financial difficulties, as has been seen in recent history, where trusts have been instrumental in saving their clubs.

Trusts invariably advocate for transparency in club operations, hoping to make club management accountable. This can, of course, lead to better governance practices and more ethical decision-making. The Bill, of course, very helpfully and constructively sets out the criteria which clubs and fan groups have to take into account. Supporters’ trusts wish to focus on the long-term sustainability of their club rather than short-term profits, which is often the case for the owners of clubs. This perspective can lead to more responsible management of resources. Where supporters’ trusts are represented on club boards, they can influence strategic decisions, ensuring that the fan perspective is included in the governance, which, of course, is crucial.

All fans can join trusts, and this can promote inclusivity within the club, assuring that the fans, regardless of background, have the opportunity to participate in club activities and governance. As has been seen in times of crisis, such as financial troubles or ownership disputes, trusts can mobilise fan support to advocate for the club’s best interests, potentially influencing outcomes in the interests of supporters and the club as a whole. An obvious recent example was the attempt by a few clubs, including Manchester United, to establish a closed European super league.

Overall, supporters’ trusts enhance the governance of football clubs by fostering a more inclusive, accountable and community-oriented approach. Therefore, with great respect to my noble friend the Minister, I urge that this amendment be accepted.

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

My Lords, my Amendment 81 stands in contrast to my noble friend’s amendment, which is very exclusive in suggesting that the only format of supporters’ group should be the trust format. In this country and, indeed, across the rest of the world there is a huge range of different kinds of football cultures and football groups.

I should declare an interest, of course. Although I have no pecuniary interest whatever—I own no shares, and I receive no dividends or payments—I have the joy, or the pain, of being able to discuss with my many thousands of members the trials and tribulations of Leeds United Football Club. A number are in this Chamber even this evening—more than one.

However, there are different kinds of fan group. If the Government—or, at a later stage, the House—wish to see the regulator having to liaise with fan groups, then in essence there is a range of choices. It could be randomised—whoever the regulator chooses, but that seems neither appropriate nor efficient. It could be, as my noble friend suggests, exclusively for the trusts, or it could be, as I am suggesting, any fan group that has some kind of democratic structure. The reason for a democratic structure is that you are then representing somebody rather than representing yourself.