Procedure of the House

Lord Sewel Excerpts

Wednesday 9th January 2013 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[The Chairman of Committees]

That the 3rd Report from the Select Committee (HL Paper 81) be agreed to.

[The Chairman of Committees (Lord Sewel)]

My Lords, it may be helpful if I say a word about the structure of the debate. When I finish my opening speech, the Question will be put on my Motion for the first time and then the noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, will be called to speak to his amendment. At the end of his speech, the Question is put on his amendment for the first time, at which point it would be appropriate for all the other amendments to be debated as well as that of the noble Lord, Lord Lea. At the end of the debate, I shall respond to the whole debate and then the noble Lord, Lord Lea, will reply and decide what to do with his amendment. Each of the other amendments will then be called in turn and can be moved formally, to enable your Lordships to decide on any of them, should any of their proponents so wish. After all the amendments have been disposed of, the Question is then put on my Motion, or my Motion as amended. I trust that that is clear.

The report covers various matters but given that five amendments have been tabled to the committee’s recommendation on the tabling of Oral Questions, I hope the House will forgive me if I focus on this point and set out the reasoning behind the committee’s recommendations in some detail.

It may help the House if I explain how we have got to this position. Last October, at the request of the committee, the Clerk of the Parliaments brought forward a paper covering a wide range of issues around Oral Questions, Topical Questions and Private Notice Questions. The paper touched on the option of moving to a ballot for Oral Questions, and the committee unanimously supported the principle of a ballot. At the same time, the Clerk of the Parliaments was asked to prepare a further paper setting out in greater detail how a ballot might work. The committee considered this second paper in December. At that meeting, two members of the committee, quite justifiably and rightly, asked that their reservations about the detailed implementation of the proposal be minuted, but there was no challenge to the principle of a ballot. So the committee has had two full discussions on these issues, during both of which there was unanimous support for the principle of a ballot.

So why a ballot? We all know that the House is too big. However, the size is compounded by the fact that the House—or rather individual Members—are much busier once they get here. That generally must be welcomed, but it causes some problems. A House that numbered well over 1,000 in the 1990s did not cause any difficulty because the rate of attendance was so much lower. In 1990, the average daily attendance, out of a House of more than 1,200 Members, was 321; last year, out of a House of 800, it was 490.

We also work a lot harder. In 1990, just under 1,200 Written Questions were asked, almost exactly one per Member; in 2012, the figure was approaching 7,000, or nine per member. With Oral Questions, unlike Written Questions, the number available does not increase in response to Member demand: we are limited to a maximum of four a day. In 1990 there were 577 Oral Questions; in 2012, with fewer sitting days, the number had actually fallen to 503. What has happened is that noble Lords wishing to table Oral Questions have often found themselves queueing for longer and longer outside the Table Office. I am told that recently one noble Lord sat in the corridor outside the Table Office for no less than three hours in order to secure an Oral Question. On most days one or more Members queue for more than an hour. It is not surprising, therefore, that a number of complaints have been made to me and my predecessor as Chairman of Committees. The truth is that the current system favours those who do not have outside jobs or other commitments, who live in London, are here every day and are sufficiently determined, as well as physically robust enough, to spend their lunch hour sitting on a not very comfortable chair in the corridor.

The facts tell their own story. If we discount balloted Topical Questions, 410 Oral Questions were tabled in 2012. Of these, no fewer than 111—or 27%—were tabled by just 15 Members of the House. Those Members each tabled between six and 10 Oral Questions—10 being, in effect, the maximum, given that Members are allowed to have only one Oral Question in House of Lords business at any one time. On the other hand, Members with outside employment or other commitments, including the Lords Spiritual, have found it difficult—sometimes impossible—to table two Oral Questions. Just two Oral Questions were tabled by Lords Spiritual in 2012, both by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Wakefield.

The committee feels that the time has come to try—I emphasise “to try”—a different approach: a daily ballot for Oral Questions. Instead of being required to queue for a two o’clock start time, Members would have a six-hour window, from 10 till four, in which to enter Questions in the ballot. We hope that this will encourage diversity, increase the number of new voices at Question Time and encourage noble Lords with outside commitments, who cannot afford to spend an hour or more queueing four weeks ahead of time, to table Oral Questions.

Ballots are familiar in both Houses. They are used in the Commons for allocating Oral Questions and at this end they have been used for decades to allocate Back-Bench Thursday debates. We also have a ballot for topical Oral Questions. Ballots work well and are fair to all. I accept that a ballot for Oral Questions raises slightly different issues and I am conscious, as I have indicated, that some members of the Procedure Committee, while supporting the principle, have expressed reservations about the detailed working of the proposed new system. However, I emphasise that we are proposing a trial, and only a trial. The report proposes that this trial should start on 8 January—indeed, it should have started on 8 January, but time has moved on. So if the report is agreed, I propose that the trial should begin with the submission of Questions from Monday 14 January and run until the Summer Recess. That will give all noble Lords ample opportunity to try out the new system, to make their views known, and for any wrinkles to be ironed out.

Let me make it absolutely clear: if the ballot is unpopular, if it turns out to be a failure, or if it leads to abuse, then we will revert to the current system with effect from the autumn. The ballot will not become permanent unless the House agrees a further recommendation from the Procedure Committee to that effect. There is a guarantee on the process.

I sense that there is dissatisfaction across the House with elements of our working practices, particularly given the increase in numbers since 2010. Our Code of Conduct states that Members of the House are not full-time professional politicians and that we,

“draw substantially on experience and expertise gained outside Parliament”.

We should encourage new and fresh voices to contribute to Question Time. This report is a small step in that direction.

Before concluding, I will touch on the five amendments. The noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, whom, in passing, I congratulate on securing the first Oral Question on today’s Order Paper, proposed that the first Oral Question on any given day should continue to be allocated on a first-come, first-served basis but the remainder allocated by ballot. The noble Lord, Lord Naseby, wishes to increase that to the first two such Questions. I cannot support either amendment on two grounds. First, they would mean that the four Oral Questions on a Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday were tabled by three different methods and I fear that that would produce confusion. Secondly, if we have Members queuing for up to three hours when three or four Questions are available, how long will they have to queue if there are only one or two Questions available? I cannot support these amendments.

The amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, is more straightforward. It would delete the relevant recommendation from the report, thereby leaving the system of allocating Oral Questions unchanged. I accept that not all noble Lords welcome the change we are proposing. Not surprisingly, some of those who have made their opposition clearest, including some noble Lords who have tabled amendments today, are those who thrive under the current arrangements—those here every day and willing and able to queue on a regular basis. If the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, presses his amendment, the House will have a straight choice. I have tried to explain why I personally support the recommendation and believe it will help encourage diversity and allow us to hear from a wider range of voices during Question Time. Because of this, I will not support the noble Lord’s amendment but of course that is a decision for the House.

The amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, would have the same effect as that tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, but add an instruction to the committee to reconsider and report again on the procedure for tabling Oral Questions before Easter. As I said in my opening remarks, the committee has twice discussed this issue in the past six months. Both times, the committee unanimously supported the principle of these proposals, although in December two Members expressed reservations about the detailed working. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, seeks to be helpful in trying to find a way through the difficulty but I do not see much benefit at this stage in instructing the committee to look again at the issue. In order to justify taking it back, it would be necessary for the House to give some fairly clear indication of the direction in which it wants the new proposals to be developed. We have made a recommendation for a trial period to be followed by a review. Surely that is the time to reconsider the issues. If noble Lords are adamant on a matter on principle that they oppose a ballot, the sensible thing is to support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy. A vote for his amendment will at least give us a clear decision, one way or another, so that we can then move on knowing the view of the House.

Finally, the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, would instruct the committee to consider increasing the time allowed for Oral Questions from 30 to 40 minutes and increasing the number of Questions from four to five. The House experimented with five Oral Questions lasting 40 minutes in 2002—that is but yesterday in House of Lords terms. The experiment was not felt to be a success and was discontinued in 2004. I recognise that things have changed since 2002 and 2004. There now might well be an appetite for a longer Question Time and more Questions. I am quite prepared and happy to take on board that suggestion and make sure that the Procedure Committee discusses that at its next meeting. That does not require the moving of a specific amendment: we will go back and look at it.

There is more to the report than Oral Questions, but they have generated the most interest in the report, which is why I have confined my remarks to this one issue; I have not mentioned collects or Prayers. I heartily commend the report to the House. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

More than that, I suspect that it would involve the clerks in judgments which might lead to questions about the way in which they conduct themselves. It would be very unfortunate. We uphold and admire the clerks and I do not think that they should be asked to make those kinds of judgments.

As for queuing, my noble friend Lord Barnett kindly mentioned to the House that I am occasionally able to have a Question on the Order Paper. It is true that I do not mind queuing: I do not understand what the problem is with it. It is a bit much for some of the distinguished Members who have spoken today to say that they do not feel able to put a Question down. I have queued, and I have recently had some very enjoyable conversations with the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes. It is not a three-hour queue; very often it can be half an hour. Frankly, those of us who put Questions down accept the system and it is not a problem. It seems that a few people have complained and that the Procedure Committee has suddenly said, “This is a major problem which concerns many Members of the House”. That is not the case.

However, the most substantive point to be made to the Chairman of Committees, whom we all respect and admire, is that there is not a consensus view in your Lordships’ House. To change Questions—the most important focal point of our daily activity—without consensus, seems to me to be an unfortunate way to go about things. I hope that the noble Lord, with all his wisdom and experience, will agree to take this matter back.

[The Chairman of Committees]

My Lords, it is customary on occasions like this to say what a good debate it has been. I would like to say what a supportive debate it has been, but that would be somewhat inaccurate. It is clear that there are deeply held and different views on how we should go forward with Question Time. I detect a common view that something needs to be done; that is generally recognised throughout the House. The proposals before the House today were produced by the Procedure Committee in a context not of a sustained campaign from anyone to complain about or change Question Time; it was just a drip, drip, drip of comments made that the whole conduct of Question Time was a matter for complaint. When I have held my fortnightly drop-in sessions, every week someone mentioned something wrong with Question Time. It is not the great, wonderful occasion that we like to think it is. Many Members feel that they are excluded from taking part in Question Time because of the way in which it proceeds, and that is a pity.

I shall get one thing out of the way straight away. First, I assure noble Lords that the proposal by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, to extend the number of Questions and lengthen Question Time will be addressed by the Procedure Committee within the next one or two meetings, so there is no need to progress that at this stage.

Secondly, a lot has been said about the consultation. That is something that I take very seriously. It is very important that a gap does not develop between Members, particularly Back-Bench Members, and the domestic committees of this House, and I have tried my best to narrow that gap. I have not completely succeeded in closing it, but I hope that it has been narrowed to an extent. In passing, it should be said that no one has come to me to complain about the proposals in the Procedure Committee report, but never mind; let it be.

However, on the issue of Question Time, when I went round to the three party groups and the Cross-Bench groups, I mentioned four topics for consideration in the near future. One of those was Question Time. So it was flagged up to all Members—if they attend their various group meetings—that this subject would be given consideration.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

I am grateful to the Lord Chairman; I promise that this will be the only time. I recall that, because I chaired a meeting where one of the party groups was addressed. There are lots of issues about Question Time. The biggest one, which has been referred to several times in passing, is about the slight “bear garden” tendency, where strategic deafness and sitting in the second row is often a very good tactic, as the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, has told us. However, if I recall correctly, when the noble Lord raised the matter of Question Time, it was not about the tabling of Questions; there were other issues about which some Members, quite rightly, feel uneasy.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chairman of Committees]

I cannot remember word for word what I said, but I think that I flagged up the issue of queuing as something that ought to be considered. The committee recognised that, if we make this change from a queuing system to a ballot system, there will be matters of detail that will most likely be difficult to identify initially. There may well be unintended consequences and there is the possibility, as a number of contributors have mentioned, that the system will be abused. If that happens, we have the opportunity to identify it during the trial period and either modify what is taking place or completely abandon it.

[Lord Barnett]

On the question of a trial, when I spoke recently about the trial run for access to the House by Members, I was told that it was only a trial. Now we have got it permanently and those of us who have to come by car or taxi will know that the trial and the continuation of it have not been very good.

[The Chairman of Committees]

I said in my opening comments that I give an assurance that the trial would not be extended beyond the end of this Session, unless this House voted in a deliberate way to continue with it. There would have been no sleight of hand or just allowing continuing practice to develop; it would have required a definite decision by this House.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

I am grateful to the Minister. On this question of a ballot, you do not need a crystal ball when you can read the history book. All you need do is look at the House of Commons. Whether you regard it as a misuse or abuse or as greater openness for democracy, the reality is that if you introduce a ballot every Member of this House will be inundated with pro forma Questions not just from the Whips but from every lobby group, think tank and organisation wishing to push a particular point of view. That will not necessarily mean that they will have more than one Question on the Order Paper, but there will be an almost inevitable process of noble Lords tabling that Question because it is to hand and has been formulated for them. The fairness supposedly attributed to the ballot procedure will therefore be completely undermined. You do not need a trial to see that. It is not just a common-sense matter of anticipating the future; it is the reality of what happens, which could be easily discovered by looking at the Order Paper in the other House and, further, looking at the top 100 Questions that are tabled there. On occasion you will find that, by a remarkable coincidence, a large number of them have exactly the same wording as 20 or 30 others.

[The Chairman of Committees]

First, I thank the noble Lord for referring to me as “the Minister”. That was some long time ago, when I was a very junior Minister in the department of which he was Secretary of State. My own little story of Question Time refers back to that period. On one occasion I was asked a supplementary question that was rather arcane. As I got up, I made a rather sotto voce comment, as I am tempted to do from time to time. When I sat down, the then Leader, the late Lord Williams of Mostyn, turned to me and said, “John, remember there’s a nation of lip-readers out there”. Some lip-reading could have gone on this afternoon.

Let us cut to the chase. I recognise that there is concern but there is a willingness to change. We have to do a more deliberate piece of consulting, but that places a responsibility on individuals and groups to come forward with suggestions so that they can be assessed by the committee. I am afraid that it is no good thinking that this is a means of kicking the issue into the long grass, where it will die a death and not see the light of day again. I suspect that there is a two-stage process involved in the future of Question Time. One deals with how Questions are put down and the other with the whole conduct of Question Time, which needs serious examination. That will require a difficult piece of voting. On that basis, the usual wisdom of the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, has shone through yet again and guides us in a way that I think commands the general acceptance of the House. What is important in the noble Lord’s amendment is the deadline of Easter. That is a very important discipline that we have to accept in order to get things moving.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

My Lords, I think the procedure is that we all withdraw our amendments in favour of my noble friend Lord Grenfell’s amendment. This has been a very interesting debate and I am glad that I put down the first question before Christmas because it has led to a flood of questions, leading ultimately to my noble friend’s amendment. I am very glad to beg leave to withdraw the amendment.