Neighbourhood Planning Bill

Debate between Lord Scriven and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 28th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, as this is the first time that I have spoken today, I refer noble Lords to my entry in the Register of Lords’ Interests. I declare that I am a councillor in the London Borough of Lewisham and a vice-president of the Local Government Association. I should also mention that I am a member of CAMRA and vice-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Beer Group. I am a supporter of pubs and recognise the important role that they play at the heart of local communities, be they in our cities, towns, villages or rural areas. I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, and the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, for signing up to my amendment today.

The amendment is simple in its effect. It seeks to amend the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 to provide further protection for our pubs. We have to take further action to protect our pubs, and by that I mean protecting thriving businesses, not businesses that have failed. There are a number of problems that need to be addressed. First, I want to pay tribute to CAMRA, which, since its formation in 1971, has stood up for the enjoyment of beer, responsible drinking, the pint, and pubs at the heart of our community. It is without doubt one of the most successful consumer campaign organisations in the UK.

Permitted development rights, as noble Lords will be aware, removed the requirement for a building owner to seek planning permission before making changes to a property. This includes change of use or even demolition. The permitted development rights that we are talking about here allow pubs to be changed to retail or to temporary office use without the need to secure planning permission. The effect is that the people in the local community are prevented from having a say over their local pub. We should be clear: these are small businesses, not failing businesses, but decisions are taken and the community loses its pub, having no say whatever. That cannot be right.

Pubs are a much-loved part of British life. They bring people together to meet, socialise, watch football or other sports, and enjoy live music or conversation with family and friends. I recall going to the event in this House organised by the Royal Voluntary Service some years ago to speak to some of the volunteers there. They were getting people out of their homes to potter down to the local pub to meet their friends and keep up their friendships. That was an important part of keeping them involved in the local community.

Pubs are also much loved by tourists. Both my brothers and my father have been black taxi drivers in London, and they could tell you about the number of tourists who arrive in London, get in the back of a taxi and want to visit a traditional pub, as well as see some of the magnificent sights that we have here. It is not uncommon for a Prime Minister to take a head of state down to the Plough in Cadsden for a pint. But permitted development rights, as they are presently in force, are estimated to contribute to the closure of 21 pubs a week.

We, of course, have the assets of community value scheme, which was introduced by the coalition Government in the last Parliament. It has proved to be a popular initiative and it has led to the removal of the permitted development rights for listed pubs. There are, however, issues and unintended consequences associated with the ACV scheme, which I will spend a little time talking about. There is a burden of time and cost placed on local authorities, community groups and pub landlords and owners. There are also a few instances where local authorities, for whatever reason, are not keen to list pubs under this scheme. All sorts of reasons are given, including that the authority is fearful of costly appeals. There have also been problems where some landlords or owners have struggled to raise funds for works, as the listing has proved a deterrent to some lenders. These are clearly an unintended consequence, but they are a consequence nevertheless.

The amendment before us today will lead to fewer pubs needing to be registered under the scheme. It will put them on a level footing with other businesses so that a developer looking to convert a pub, for whatever reason, would have to go through the normal planning application process. It is quite possible, even likely, that the application will be approved, but my amendment would give the local community a proper say in the sort of development it wants in its area and stop local assets being lost for ever with local people having no say. Surely that is something we should all support. I beg to move.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 39, to which I added my name. I also support the thrust of what the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, has just said. As it is the first time I have spoken today, I will place on record my interests in the register as a member of Sheffield City Council.

In Committee, the Minister generously asked for examples of where the asset of community value scheme was not working well in particular authorities. He will be aware that I contacted CAMRA in Sheffield to ask whether there were any incidents of such difficulties with the scheme in regard to pubs. I was quite surprised at the amount of information CAMRA gave me—which I am sure the Minister has seen. It became quite clear from reading about what was going on that this is not isolated to Sheffield, which merely exemplifies what is happening in many communities across the country. This is a burden on communities. It is a David and Goliath fight where the community must fight sometimes a large local authority to prove that an asset is of community value. We talked many times in Committee about the difference between pubs and other commercial operations. It is about not just the economics but also the community and social value that a pub has in binding communities together.

I have come to the view that the asset of community value is not enough in itself to protect those pubs, particularly given the time needed and the burden put on community organisations to save a pub. It is an unbalanced fight between the giant and the small community organisation. For that reason, pubs should have permitted development rights taken away. As the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, said, that would give the community an equal voice in the planning process. It does not necessarily mean that a pub will not be converted to a particular use if it goes through the planning process, but it gives a statutory right to every single member of the community, without cost, to have a say within the planning process, and to be able to explain why a particular pub should or should not be changed and the effect that that will have on the community and the setting of that pub. For that reason I have come to the conclusion that we need to take the permitted development rights away from pubs if they are changing specific use or will be demolished and put them properly and correctly within the framework of the planning process.

Neighbourhood Planning Bill

Debate between Lord Scriven and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 8th February 2017 Grand Committee

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, I hope that we will be a bit quicker on the next few groups. Amendment 64A, which is in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Beecham, seeks to put into the Bill a clause that sets out clearly a role for the National Infrastructure Commission in providing advice to local planning authorities in respect of how national projects will link with local projects and how the national projects may affect specific neighbourhoods through their construction phase and operation. The National Infrastructure Commission did not of course make this Bill in the end, for whatever reasons, but it is important that we get this clause into the Bill.

The Bill, as we know, gives significant powers to the Secretary of State in respect of planning, and some of us think one or two of these clauses go too far. There can often be a conflict between the local and the national in terms of construction infrastructure. I want to make it clear at this stage that I am not a nimby—I certainly support the construction of projects that are needed to drive the economy forward and are in the national interest—but where national considerations come into play, we need to look at local concerns, local plans and local policies. We need dialogue, advice and support, and my amendment seeks to allow for all those factors.

The amendment also seeks to provide local authorities with a similar obligation to deal with the neighbourhood plan makers. This is a probing amendment which seeks to draw a response from the noble Lord. I beg to move.

[Lord Scriven]

My Lords, I have a little concern with the amendment—not with the thrust of where it is trying to go, but the way it is worded and the implications of proposed new subsection (2), which says:

“Local planning authorities must provide any necessary advice on national and local infrastructure projects as requested by neighbourhood plan makers”.


That seems to me to be a little top-down. If they have information, it should be automatically given to those making the neighbourhood plan. To paraphrase the words of a former American Defense Minister, sometimes there are the known knowns, and sometimes unknown knowns. I am sure this is not the intention of the amendment, but it needs to be a bit stronger in terms of automatically giving the right to the neighbourhood plan makers rather than them having to ask for it. I hope that those who tabled the amendment will reflect on that.

Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Scriven and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Tuesday 12th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

Will the noble Lord give way? I am a former leader of Sheffield City Council and a resident of the city. Has the noble Lord spoken to the leaders of Chesterfield and Bassetlaw councils, where people may have a different view to the one he has just expressed?

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

I have not spoken to the leaders of Chesterfield or Bassetlaw councils but I have spoken to the leaders of Derbyshire County Council and Nottinghamshire County Council. It is an area I know quite well, but I accept we are not going to agree on all our points.

This is also an area of considerable natural beauty with a thriving tourism industry. I would be grateful if the noble Baroness could talk about the devolution deal for Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire. Discussions are taking place with those councils, but there are concerns. They are worried that any deal there will be potentially undermined by having further discussions about other councils leaving that area. This is not a good way of going forward.