Mental Health Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Scriven and Lord Crisp

Report stage
Monday 31st March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Crisp (CB)]

My Lords, I have added my name to one of my noble friend Lady Hollins’s amendments on community services and to four of those on long-term seclusion. I will speak very briefly to each topic.

On community services—I also support my noble friend Lord Adebowale’s amendment on this issue—I understand the Government’s concerns about timing and, presumably, costs, but I believe nevertheless that the Bill should provide legislative pressure to deliver community services for autistic people and people with learning disabilities. There is little point in using the Bill to set out a new legislative framework for this group if this does not include some notion of a plan or timetable, and it is highly likely that the service will simply fall back into the established patterns of non-therapeutic containment if this is not included.

I fully endorse the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, about the Autism Act. As one of the witnesses to the autism committee recently said, this is a pretty good law, but where is the action? Where is the implementation? That is the point, and we need some reassurance on a plan being forthcoming within a reasonable timeframe.

On long-term seclusion, I suspect that most members of the public would be surprised to know that what amounts to, in some cases, solitary confinement—I use that pejorative phrase deliberately—is used for such long periods in our institutions. We are talking about 15 days at a time and potentially more than that, over the course of a month, if there is a break between the 15 days and the next 14 days, for example. We should be particularly concerned about what happens out of sight in these institutions, where what should be a very rare occurrence at best can become all too easily routine.

These amendments open this long-term seclusion to greater scrutiny and control. They may not prevent it happening altogether, but they will help to make it a rarer occurrence. I refer in particular to two amendments, neither of which I have my name against—that is my mistake rather than anything else. Amendments 3 and 53 both refer to the code of practice and require that if people are kept in long-term seclusion for 15 days, or indeed the majority of 30 days, there will be clear monitoring and subsequent active intervention to take account of that. They are entirely reasonable amendments and do not raise funding, timing or any other issues. They are about ensuring proper scrutiny of what is happening to vulnerable people in some of our institutions.

In saying that, I am reminded of reading the report from Blooming Change, a young people’s organisation. I quoted the report at Second Reading, and it describes problems with safety and quality. There are descriptions of being injured during restraint, being drugged and restrained, and being scared all the time. It includes the terribly sad quotation:

“‘hospital makes you worse’… going into hospital with one problem and then leaving with trauma, new behaviours, new diagnoses, assaults, PTSD – it’s awful.”

We ought to be able to ensure that the code of practice for long-term seclusion is adhered to and that where it is not, it is properly investigated.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to a number of amendments that I have added my name to, particularly those in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins. In Committee, the whole issue of people with learning disabilities and autism caused a number of concerns. I note that the Minister has gone some way towards dealing with some of those concerns, and it is a tribute to her listening and enaction skills that progress has been made.

I think it would be fair to say that there are still some concerns on Benches across the House about potential unintended consequences for people with learning disabilities and autism if the Bill goes through in its present form. In some areas, I would describe the statement from the Minister as, “It’ll be all right on the night”—but we know that, sometimes, it is not all right on the night, and things will happen.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, puts forward quite an important base for long-term segregation. There is no evidence that it has a long-term therapeutic benefit for people who have learning disabilities and autism, and so the provision for it still being there, without laser-focused monitoring and intervention, is a weakness. The Minister really has to convince the House that the Government have a plan to deal with this.

The worry about having too much faith in the code of practice, as we found out in Committee, is that simple words such as “should” and “must” have very different meanings for whether or not there is a statutory obligation on an organisation. It would be interesting to hear the Minister’s view on the focus in the code of practice and on strengthening the words used.

Amendment 4, to which I have added my name, is something that the House should focus on and understand. Throughout the history of implementation of improvements in mental health and other areas where community carers come in, they have always fallen down on implementation, due to a lack of either funding or resources. Amendment 4 focuses on implementation. As the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, has just said, in the Autism Act 2009 Committee, we heard from two witnesses who said there is a plethora of policy but it is always the plan on implementation that fails. The amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, focuses on that implementation and asks that the Government have a real plan to do that.

It was worrying as we went through Committee, particularly when issues were raised about the numbers in the impact assessment, that the Minister pointed out that they are indicative. The amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, is required because, if we take a look at the trend of the percentage of total healthcare spend that has been allocated to mental health, including the Government’s announcement last week, we find that there have now been two years in which the total spend will be reduced. That means that some of the good ideas that the Government have mentioned with regard to the implementation of this Bill and community services are potentially at risk.

I do not know whether the noble Baroness will press her amendment, but, if she does, she will have the support of these Benches. We think this is vital, and we are not quite convinced, unless the Minister says something to that effect from the Dispatch Box, that that crack—that real weakness—has been dealt with.

Mental Health Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Scriven and Lord Crisp

Committee stage
Tuesday 14th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 22, 24, 25, 26, 29, 30 and 31 in my name in this group. I support Amendment 28, which was just spoken to very ably by the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, and Amendments 36 and 37, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins. I want to put on record my condolences to her at what must be a very sad and difficult time.

Quite a number of amendments that I have put down in this group, particularly Amendment 22, are about prevention. It is about getting upstream and trying to use the dynamic support registers—the risk registers—in a better way, and, by so doing, having the correct information that is available to a place, rather than just to an organisation, such as the NHS or the ICB, within that place.

Amendment 22 would ensure that local authorities have an active role in assisting ICBs in identifying people for inclusion in the risk registers. NHS England’s policy and guidance on dynamic support registers states:

“Early identification of people at risk of admission to a mental health hospital and their access to person-centred planning and support are essential for the prevention of avoidable admissions”.


Many people with risk factors will first come into contact with a local authority, particularly people with learning disabilities and autism. It is important that the local authority has a clear responsibility to assist ICBs in identifying people for inclusion on the register, to ensure that people get the right support at the right time. I hope that the Minister will take this amendment in the spirit that it is given. This is an important issue which is not strong enough in the Bill and which really needs to be taken account of.

There have been difficulties for some people getting enrolled on the DSR, and this is particularly true for autistic people without a learning disability. Additionally, NHS England data shows that 52% of autistic people and people with a learning disability detained in a mental health hospital are not on a risk register prior to admission. Therefore, there is a gap, and the Bill gives us a chance to help plug it. Hopefully, placing this duty on local authorities will facilitate greater uptake and enrolment on the register for all, therefore helping to reduce admissions, improving support in the community and being a good preventive measure.

Coupled with this, Amendments 36 and 37 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, would help with that prevention role by making sure that proper provision was available. Taken together, Amendments 22, 36 and 37 would be a really good group of steps forward to help with preventive measures to make sure that all people who can be identified who come into contact with a local authority but are not known to the ICB go on the register, and that provision is made.

Amendments 24 and 29 would change the current language in the Bill. After listening to debate on previous amendments, I will not labour the point because I have a good idea what the Minister might say, but again I think the provision needs to be strengthened so that ICBs and local authorities have a duty to consider the risk register when exercising commissioning and marketing functions.

In Amendments 25 and 30 there is the same approach by strengthening the words in the Bill to ensure that ICBs and local authorities have a duty to ensure that the needs of autistic people and people with a learning disability are met in the community wherever possible. The current language in the Bill states only that ICBs and local authorities must “seek to ensure” that the needs of autistic people and people with a learning disability are met. This wording is vague and does not compel a strong enough duty to meet the needs of people in the community. Again, the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, would strengthen my amendments even further.

These amendments are important. I hope that the Minister has listened very carefully, will make efforts to implement some of these steps and reports back on Report.

[Lord Crisp (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak to my noble friend Lady Hollins’s Amendments 36 and 37. I add myself to the comments by the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, about the remarkable commitment that my noble friend is showing at this awful time and express my personal condolences. What I am going to say is based on comments that she has passed to me. I should perhaps say at the beginning that I too am an honorary fellow of the Royal College of Psychiatrists—“(unqualified)”, as others have made that disclaimer.

The purpose of these amendments is very clear. Amendment 36 states that ICBs

“must ensure the availability of integrated comprehensive, accessible, and responsive community services for autistic people and people with learning disabilities … to reduce hospital admissions … and … reliance on restrictive interventions”.

As the previous two noble Lords said, it is very much about prevention and creating appropriate services.

I note that the Explanatory Notes to the Bill say that Clause 4

“is designed to help ensure that ICBs can monitor individuals at risk of detention and put in place the necessary preventative measures to help keep people out of hospitals”.

Putting it simply, this amendment takes that rather weak wording in the explanation and toughens it up. The issue here is not about good intentions and ensuring that it is possible for something to happen. I am sure that all noble Lords share the intention and the hope that these things will be in place, but this is about making sure that something happens. It is about implementation and seeing that a change happens.

This is vital because it is clear that there are major problems in service coverage right now. For example, only a quarter of integrated care systems are meeting their target of having only 30 people per million admitted. Of course, that number would ideally be much lower than it is, but only a quarter of these systems are even meeting that. Amendment 36 spells out what these services should include. I will not read them out in detail but noble Lords can see that they cover all the relevant areas that one would expect: evidence-based treatments, crisis prevention and intervention services, non-restrictive walk-in services, and the provision of “suitable housing”.

I will comment on two of those items in a moment. All of them are important but what I think the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, had in mind was not just discussing these items but seeing her amendment as an opportunity to discuss which services are the right ones—the ones that should be there—and which areas ICBs and local authorities should address. The key point at this stage is not so much about the detail but the need for some clear legislative requirements on what services must be provided. Good intentions are simply not good enough; implementation is what is needed.

I will mention two of those items that relate to points made earlier by other noble Lords in our debates on this group and others. One is the reference to “non-drug-based interventions” and “social prescribing”; their importance in community services applies in all kinds of ways. The second is the point about housing, which, as has been discussed, is vital. Ten years ago, I did a review for the Royal College of Psychiatrists on discharges from acute adult hospitals. A third of the people in those hospitals were there because they did not have adequate accommodation anywhere else. That third included people who had nowhere to be discharged to, in terms of adequate housing. It is a really serious issue. I make those points because both of these issues go beyond this amendment: in some ways, they are not about healthcare as much as they are about enabling people to have a decent life and creating the conditions for people to be healthy and live in the best way possible.

Amendment 37 is about issuing guidance on standards and monitoring and reviewing progress. Again, without that, we cannot be sure that this legislation will make a difference to the people who matter.

I will make three final points. I recognise that there are perverse issues of finance here because, of course, the NHS pays when people are in hospital and the local authority pays for the services in the community. Of course, that reminds us all of the need to get the social care policy right and the importance, wherever the boundaries fall between public bodies, of using public money wisely across organisations.

In that context, I stress that what the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, has set out in this amendment is not an unachievable wish list. Even in today’s circumstances, some people are making real progress. Mencap pointed me towards the Black Country’s emergency response team, which noble Lords may know about and which meets many of these criteria for services. In 2022-23, it supported 51 people who were presumably being paid for by the local authority and who might otherwise have been admitted for the equivalent cost of a single assessment and treatment bed, presumably paid for by the NHS. Preventive and good-quality services so often make good financial sense, as well as being better for the people concerned. I do not know whether the Minister is familiar with that project but I would certainly encourage her to have a look at it if she has not already done so.

The second point I want to make is that, although I have not actually checked the reference, I believe that the Minister said something at Second Reading about delaying the implementation of some parts of this Bill until the services are in place. I would be grateful if she could say what was meant by that, but also why it is necessary when people can make progress quite quickly.

The Black Country example—and I suspect that there are others—shows that people are making progress and that, in many ways, it is better to have a stretching target that people are moving towards rather than saying, “If you don’t have the services, we won’t implement the legislation”. We need to keep moving forward and show faith both in what this Bill is designed to achieve and in the Government’s agenda on prevention and on moving towards the community. No doubt the digital transformation is also extremely relevant here.