Mental Health Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Scriven and Baroness Watkins of Tavistock

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Monday 24th November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, I wish to put on record my thanks for the collaborative spirit of the Minister and her officials when discussing the issue of community treatment orders.

This issue came about during the passage of the Bill, in the context of the balance between mandatory community treatment and deprivation of people’s freedom in the community; people who seemed always to be in the revolving door and could not get off a community treatment order; and in particular racial disparity.

The Minister has moved forward, and it really is about that balance between the power of the individual patient and the clinician. Where the Government have got to in discussions is a “stop and check” for the clinician—having to think about why the extension of the community treatment order is required. If the tribunal says that certain conditions of a treatment order should not be established or be part of a patient’s treatment, the clinician has to stop and think and will be mandated through the code of practice to explain why that happens.

I very much welcome the offer to consult both myself and the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, and involve us in redrawing the code of practice. It is important that within that code of practice, words such as “must” are used, rather than “may”, which would give the clinician the discretion to not write things down as much as is required when people’s freedom is being taken away.

Again, I thank the noble Baroness and her officials and look forward to getting that balance absolutely correct to stop the revolving door.

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister, officials and Members of the other House for Amendment 12, which will ensure the human rights of patients who are placed in the private sector under NHS contracts. Many of us were concerned about that, but the situation is completely resolved through Amendment 12.

Health Education England (Transfer of Functions, Abolition and Transitional Provisions) Regulations 2023

Debate between Lord Scriven and Baroness Watkins of Tavistock

Tuesday 21st March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as a relatively new non-executive director of NHS England, appointed together with two expert doctors to give clinical input to the board and tackle the issues that have just been discussed. However, I want to put on record that I think Health Education England has been a success and has set up sound processes that have enabled a good estimation of the workforce needed for the next 15 years.

The workforce plan is in draft and is being considered by the Government, but I want to underline the fact that, without sufficient funding, it will not achieve what everybody wants it to achieve. I believe that making it mainstream in NHS England should mean that, working with the ICBs, we have a sound approach for the future. I am aware that the two previous speakers will be able to hold NHS England to account on whether we get it right or not. I felt that I should be here this afternoon to say that I think it will work, but only because of the sound foundation that NHS Education has left behind.

I also want to echo one concern: that we have to calculate social care needs within the workforce development plan, in particular the needs of leaders of teams in social care, who are often nurses or allied health professionals such as physiotherapists. On that note, I will sit down; I wanted to express my current understanding of the situation.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, I wish to add briefly to the very useful and interesting debate that the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, has stimulated with her amendment. In so doing, I point out my interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association.

I support the general direction of the merger. I can see why HR functions need to be streamlined together rather than partly devolved and partly in NHS England. The Minister quite rightly pointed out his business background; I have a background in organisational development and public sector reform, not necessarily in the UK but in Africa and south-east Asia. One of the key failures in the public sector when these organisational structures happen, predominantly for cost reduction reasons—it is always said by those leading them that cost reduction is not the reason, but it is important—is that there are no measurements for success in three, five, 10 and 15 years. Without that, you get a structure without understanding how the structure will deliver exactly what is needed.

So, what are the measurements for success in three, five, 10 and 15 years? Without those, everyone can say there is a target, but no one knows what that target, or bull’s-eye, really is. What are the clear measurements within three, five, 10 and 15 years? If they are not there, how do we know what success looks like based on what the merger was about in the first place? That is really important.

The other part of this is that you can have all the training and numbers you like for the workforce, but if the support, conditions and culture are not right, people will leave, as they are doing now in parts of the NHS. In certain specialties, you cannot get a doctor for money, no matter how much you offer. Part of that is about working conditions, culture and support. How does this merger deal not just with numbers and education but more holistically with the culture and support? For example, in many trusts, junior doctors cannot even get a meal in the evening. You can have all the numbers you want in terms of training, but if people decide not to work because of the conditions, how does that help holistically? How do we ensure we have not just the training and numbers but the culture and support within organisations so that people decide to go and work there?

My final question is simple. All noble Lords who have spoken have mentioned social care. As I said, my question is simple: how does this plan link with a plan for the social care workforce? What problems are envisaged and what mitigation has been put in place to ensure, first, that the two plans work in tandem and, eventually, as a long-term aim —I have heard Ministers talk about this—that staff will be able to move across the organisational divide? How will the links be there? What mitigation is being put in against the risks for a social care plan and a healthcare plan? This is important because people who start with a health problem then require social care to make as good and independent a life as possible. It is important that, when the Government start on one plan, they understand the linkage with the other and the mitigations needed. I hope that the Minister can put the mitigations in place.

As I said, in general, I understand the reasons for this but there are serious questions that the Minister needs to answer to ensure the maximum impact from this merger.