Automated Vehicles Bill [HL]

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 6th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Gower (Con)]

I thank noble Lords for their contributions to this debate, particularly those who joined me for a detailed discussion following Committee.

The Government want all parts of society, including those with disabilities, to be able to reap the benefits of self-driving technology; I see no disagreement between us on that point. The question at hand is not one of ambition but rather the most appropriate form and timing of intervention.

It bears repeating that we are all dealing with an industry in its infancy. It is not clear what kinds of services will ultimately come forward, and therefore what kind of accessibility provisions are appropriate. What is clear, however, is that if we try to compensate for that uncertainty with unnecessarily broad requirements, the greatest risk is that the industry simply does not develop at all.

If we want self-driving technology to serve the needs of disabled people, we must have a viable self-driving industry in the first place. That is why we have anchored our approach in the recommendations put forward by the law commissions. Their central conclusion on this issue was that our focus should be on gathering evidence and gaining experience. On their recommendation we have built reporting on accessibility into the new passenger permit scheme and have committed to using this learning to develop national accessibility standards for permits. Although we will do so in a more flexible, non-statutory form, it is on their recommendation that we are establishing an accessibility advisory panel to inform that process. We will of course also draw on the deep and hugely valuable expertise of our existing statutory Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee.

Alongside this, the Government will continue to support the development of accessible self-driving vehicle designs. This investment has already helped five separate projects to deploy accessible vehicles, and there will be further opportunities as part of our £150 million CAM pathfinder fund, announced last year.

Beginning with Amendment 8, the authorisation process exists to ensure that self-driving vehicles operate safely. It is not designed to regulate the physical construction of vehicles. Indeed, as my noble friend Lord Borwick points out, most developers are currently working to incorporate self-driving systems into existing, mass-produced models, not creating new vehicles from scratch.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

That is not actually what is happening in the marketplace. General Motors has developed the Wayve vehicle, which is now being used in San Francisco. If the regulation is there, the market is already ready and large companies such as General Motors are already making the provision.

[Lord Davies of Gower (Con)]

I hear what the noble Lord says and am not going to argue with him on that at this point. Where there are overlaps between safety and accessibility, for example in the training of human detection systems, these will be addressed as part of the statement of safety principles. Beyond this, accessibility provisions are best made at the service level, of which vehicle design is just one part.

That is why our approach focuses on understanding how services can best be delivered for disabled users, which can then inform standard permit requirements. As drafted, the amendment would also apply these accessibility principles to any vehicle authorised as self-driving. That would include everything from private cars to vans, HGVs and even tractors. This would be disproportionate and out of step with the way we regulate conventional vehicle designs.

While Amendments 18 and 20 focus on passenger service provision, they could impose design requirements that are simply too sweeping to be workable. Requiring that every automated passenger service vehicle be “accessible to disabled people” would likely require adaptions, including full wheelchair accessibility. Imposing this requirement on the full self-driving passenger service fleet would be disproportionate, and not something we require of conventional taxis and private hire vehicles. This would make the UK market unviable, to the detriment of all users, including those with disabilities. As colleagues have noted, the needs of disabled people are broad and diverse. I note that even vehicles that claim to be 100% wheelchair accessible frequently cannot accommodate the full range of motorised and larger chairs.

Amendment 19 looks to apply the accessibility requirements of existing taxi, private hire and public service vehicle legislation to the passenger permitting scheme. This would not have the desired effect, as these requirements are largely imposed on the human driver. Furthermore, novel automated services may not fit neatly into these traditional modal schemes. Indeed, this is the very challenge that the law commissions were looking to tackle when they recommended the approach we are now taking. Nevertheless, I recognise the points that my noble friend makes and undertake to reflect on how we can best align our standard permitting conditions with the spirit of the Equality Act. These will also reflect the Bill’s specific requirements to consider the needs of older and disabled people before any permit can be issued.

I turn now to some details of the permitting system. Amendment 22 places an unnecessarily high burden on issuing authorities to guarantee that permits enable learning and improve understanding. The Bill already requires that authorities consider the likelihood of this. A more stringent standard would be impractical and add little value. Applicants will naturally be required to provide evidence of their plans for accessibility reporting as part of their permit application. Pre-deployment reports of the kind proposed by Amendment 24 would therefore be redundant.

The reporting process is outcome focused, requiring providers to explain what they are doing to meet the needs of disabled users. Vehicle accessibility could naturally be one of the many inputs that help to do this. I contend that a separate reference, as proposed by Amendment 23, is therefore also unnecessary.

Amendment 21 would require that relevant disability groups be consulted before each permit was issued. Consultation with such groups will naturally form part of developing the national minimum standards for permits. To require separate consultation for each individual permit would be excessively onerous and there would be considerable ambiguity as to which groups would be relevant in each case. Both these issues could severely inhibit the growth of new services.

Amendment 27 would require the Government to annually commission and pay due regard to research on self-driving vehicles’ accessibility. I have already described some of the work that we are undertaking in this space, which will of course continue. However, the wording of this requirement is too general to be effectively implemented and enforced.

I wholly appreciate the strength of feeling on these issues. By explaining the position taken by the Government and the law commissions, I hope that I have been able to offer at least some assurances.

Rail Services

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Wednesday 17th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I agree that things cannot be allowed to continue in their present state. That is why we have brought in LNER, which will perform its duties and review every aspect, as I said earlier. Noble Lords should understand that this is not a silver bullet. I do not think we can expect a substantial change very soon, because we still have no rest-day working, as ASLEF will not allow it. Even if train drivers want to earn extra money, they cannot, because it is not being allowed. So it remains the case that only 80% of TPE’s drivers are fully trained, because there is a nearly 4,000-day backlog of training. Again, that cannot be done unless there is more flexibility within the train-driving community to allow that to be cleared, so it will take quite a long time, which is disappointing, but of course we hope to reset all relationships and move to a better future.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, I listened very carefully to the responses the Minister gave to the Front Benchers and, like many millions of passengers in the north, I am a little dismayed at some of the combative language that was used. I gently suggest to the Minister that, to solve this problem and get TPE working better, a little more collaborative language, rather than combative language, would be helpful.

I also point out to the Minister, who made cheap party-political jibes about Transport for the North, that it is a collaboration of all party leaders of all colours. It is chaired by a noble Lord who sits on the government Benches and includes the regional director at the Department for Transport, so please let us accept that as a united board across party politics, as well as the Department for Transport.

In so doing—and I hope the Minister will be a little more collaborative in the answer she gives me—one of the big issues for TransPennine Express, which many in the industry point out, is that part of the reason for the 56 drivers leaving is because they are being poached by freight companies offering double the salary. How does this new arrangement that the Minister has just explained help to deal with that problem? If it does not, what solutions does she suggest could be put in place to ensure that poaching does not continue and therefore cause a lack of drivers and the problem for passengers who use TPE services?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, and I am sorry he felt that I was being combative. I think was slightly responding to the fact of it being the terrible Tory Government yet again, when it is about partnership working. If we are going to make our railways work in the future, it is with this sort of partnership working with TfN, which is an organisation I have a great amount of respect for. I worked very closely with it for three years in my role in the Department for Transport. I have an enormous amount of respect for TfN, but it is just trying to understand that there are other parties involved which have been trying to help make sure that TPE operates as well as possible.

I understand the noble Lord’s point about the drivers. It is something that the OLR will need to look at. I think there are two issues: recruitment and retention. TPE has been very successful in recruiting. It has recruited 113 new drivers this year versus only 57 last year, so I hope we can reset the relationship with the new blood coming in—obviously they take a while to train. TPE is already a great place to work. We just need to make sure that the drivers feel supported and able to stay with TPE as it goes into the management of the OLR.

South Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive (Transfer of Functions) Order 2023

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Tuesday 13th December 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a long-suffering passenger in South Yorkshire. I live in Sheffield, and I am well aware of the area and of the request of the former mayor and the current mayor, Oliver Coppard, for this change. However, in South Yorkshire we are bit perplexed, not because we are not bright people but because since August, as the Minister said, the functions of South Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive have moved to the mayoral combined authority.

South Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive’s website still exists. Its last post was on 31 August. It states:

“To better reflect who we are, the communities we serve and the way we work we changed our name on 17 September 2021 from ‘South Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive’ (SYPTE) to ‘South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority’ (SYMCA).


SYPTE will continue to exist and retain the responsibilities of the local transport authority until the legal integration of SYPTE and SYMCA is complete”.


which is what this statutory instrument does. However, there is no reference on the mayoral combined authority’s website to its function separate from the mayoral authority. There is no way that a member of the public can work out what is happening and there does not seem to be any oversight of the functions of the passenger transport executive. It seems from a lay person’s perspective—and from my perspective, and I used to lead a city in South Yorkshire—that by default this has just happened and there is no dividing line. What assurance does the department have that there has been separation until this order goes through and that it is still there? How has the department checked that separation and that the passenger transport executive is independent?

More important for those of us living in South Yorkshire is whether this is an administrative change. We want to see an impact on our buses and trains, not just the deckchairs on the “Titanic” being shuffled as our public transport sinks. Will the Minister say exactly what difference the order will make, and what powers that do not currently exist in South Yorkshire will be brought to bear that will mean that our bus services will be better—or is it just that the existing powers are being shifted to somebody else and therefore the mayor is unable to get anything extra that the passenger transport executive could not get? That is the key issue. Administration is good, but administration for a purpose is the most important thing. Will the Minister explain to the people of South Yorkshire and to the Committee why this administrative change will have an effect on the bus and train services in South Yorkshire?

For example, 103 TransPennine Express trains were cancelled yesterday—a record for the north of England, many affecting people in South Yorkshire. Will these changes have any effect on the mayor’s ability to hold TransPennine Express to account? Will this new statutory instrument mean that the mayor will be able to do things that the passenger transport executive was not able to do to help with our buses and trains in South Yorkshire?

The reason why I ask this is really important. Mayor Coppard has a very good way of blaming others for the poor state of buses and trains. To some degree he has a point, but if he asks for these powers, what is it that he will be able to do that people in South Yorkshire—either democratically elected councillors who are on the passenger transport executive or the leaders of the council who make up the South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority with the mayor—are unable to do at present? I look forward to answers from the Minister, because an administrative change is welcome if there is an effect on our buses and trains but not if it is just a shuffling of administrative posts back in South Yorkshire.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome this order to merge the South Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive into the South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority. This step should lead to more effective and more accountable decision-making, but it is disappointing that it has taken this long for the order to be implemented. I begin by asking the Minister to confirm that the department is engaging with the South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority and its constituent local authorities to ensure there are no further delays.

Powers and reform must be matched with investment, and it is clear that the Government lack ambition for the future of South Yorkshire’s transport network. Today, Ministers still spend three times per head more in London than in Yorkshire and the Humber. If the South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority is to deliver a truly trans- formative agenda, then the Government must provide real support. I hope the Minister will commit to that.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords for their contributions to this short debate. I hope I was able to warn the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, in my opening remarks that this is an administrative change: it is nothing more exciting than that, but it makes sure that the accountability, responsibilities and governance are clear. It also saves the MCA having both the PTE and the MCA structure, so there will be some small savings. We were asked for this, and it is not something that we would necessarily have required of all MCAs, because MCAs should be able to choose how they administrate their local transport powers. There are no changes to the powers that the mayor will have, although colleagues in DLUHC are looking at taking forward further devolution for places in due course.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

The Minister has a difficult job in defending this in terms of accountability. People understood the South Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive, and councils were accountable at a local level for being on it. My point is that, since the transfer of the passenger transport executive to the mayoral authority, all that the South Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive did has been lost in the myriad of what the mayoral authority does. The public are finding it harder than before to hold anyone to account for what is going on. All this does is formalise exactly the hybrid situation that has been in place since early 2021. As for accountability, if it continues as it has done since the partial incorporation, it does not make the accountability easier; it actually makes it harder.

Great British Railways and Rail Services in the North

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Monday 5th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, I also congratulate my noble friend Lord Goddard on this important and timely debate. We are not asking for a lot for the sixth largest economy in the world and the place that gave the world the railways. We just seek a train service that is affordable, comfortable and reliable so that we can get to work, school or business meetings on time, and move from town to town and city to city without feeling that we are in a tin of sardines, squashed and squeezed. It is unacceptable that, in 2022, in the north of England, we are not able to do that, with all the social, economic and environmental consequences that has for so many people, businesses and communities. The 2019 Conservative manifesto promised a “transport revolution”—believe me, there are many rebellions daily in the train stations of the north of England because the Government have failed to bring about any stirrings of significant change, never mind a revolution.

Good train connections are the lifeblood of modern and successful economies, and poor train services are a drag on social mobility and economic improvement. Some 60 to 100 trains a day are cancelled by two of the major operators in the north, but these are just reported cancellations, because a trick—the P notification route—is used. P cancellations are meant to be used in exceptional circumstances, but TransPennine Express uses them all the time. If it cancels a train before 10 pm the previous evening, it is not reported as a cancelled train. Cancellations of trains in the north were therefore underreported by over 1,000 in the last month by TransPennine Express alone. Will the Minister commit the Government to stopping this loophole?

It is no good union-bashing; these issues are caused by an unsustainable business model. You cannot run a sustainable train service that relies on people’s good will to drive trains on their rest days or do overtime. Will the Minister commit to getting the train operators to stop this ridiculous way of working and to have a business model that means a named driver is allocated to all timetabled trains? If not, why are the Government allowing these train operators to continue with their contracts in this way?

Investment is required. While £18.9 billion was spent on the Elizabeth line in London, I note that last year’s integrated rail plan reduced capital investment by £36 billion, most of which was in the north. As the Northern Powerhouse Partnership pointed out, £24.9 billion of that reduction was in the north. This will affect cities such as the one I am proud to call home: Sheffield. With 560,000 people and £15 billion in GDP, home of two world-class universities and sitting centrally on the north’s east-west train corridor, it is blighted by poor rail services. It takes you longer to get to places such as Hull, Liverpool, Huddersfield and Manchester Airport from Sheffield than it does to fly from Manchester to Paris.

Talking of Manchester Airport, it is absolutely scandalous that Sheffield has had its direct train service to its major international airport taken away. That was done sneakily by TransPennine Express during the height of the Covid pandemic. There is no direct train service between the fourth largest city in England and its major international airport—does the Minister think that that is acceptable? Does she think it helps economic growth? What will the Government do to ensure that TransPennine Express reinstates this valuable and vital service?

We want a rail service fit for the 21st century in the north, not this terrible, expensive and unreliable shambles we have now.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

Before the Minister sits down, and for the record, she said that the change to the Sheffield to Manchester Airport service was due to the work undertaken by the Manchester consortium. Is it correct that the discussion and public consultation was jointly by that organisation and the Department for Transport, and that the department was therefore privy to the decision taken?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Yes, absolutely. The Manchester taskforce that I referred to consists of the Department for Transport, the train operating companies, Network Rail, Transport for the North and Transport for Greater Manchester. As you can see, it is a mixture between the Government, local government, train operating companies and Network Rail. There is congestion in the Manchester area, and we would obviously hope to reinstate those services as we can, but clearly some prioritisation had to be made.

Airports: Delays

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Thursday 30th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I absolutely agree that every passenger should get a good service at an airport and be able to get through security within reasonable time. I know that the airports are beefing up their staffing. The Government have done an enormous amount in this area as well: we have ensured that UK security vetting now has no delays; we have also changed the regulations to ensure that training for these new security staff can start while background checks are ongoing.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, the chief executive of easyJet has said that one problem it is suffering is that:

“The pool of people is smaller, it’s just maths. We have had to turn down a huge number of EU nationals because of Brexit. Pre-pandemic we would have turned down 2-2.5% because of nationality issues. Now it’s 35-40%.”


How does the 22-step plan that the Government have produced deal with these kinds of staffing shortages?

HS2: Phase 2B

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Monday 8th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, it is not an either/or when it comes to railways in the north or anywhere else. That is why we have the Restoring Your Railway Fund, which is looking at reopening certain lines. I assure the House that the integrated rail plan is about not only ensuring that all these projects are integrated but delivering them as quickly as we can.

[Lord Scriven (LD) [V]]

Do the Government still agree with the economic justification for HS2, which shows that in Sheffield, Leeds, Chesterfield, Nottingham and the east Midlands, HS2 will create over 136,000 new jobs, including many highly skilled positions, and that the full multibillion pound increase in GVA will come to fruition only if the eastern leg goes ahead all the way to Leeds?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

We are in frequent discussions with stakeholders across the north and the Midlands to fully understand the economic benefits of HS2 to their areas. It is absolutely clear to us that the benefits are very significant. We will set out the exact way forward in the integrated rail plan.

High Speed Rail (West Midlands-Crewe) Bill

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Monday 14th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord McLoughlin. I agree with many of the things he said. Like him, I welcome the eventual passage of this Bill—hopefully—but regret that the total HS2 scheme as envisaged is not on the statute book. As the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, said, that is all we ask. Once it is on the statute book, it can be built. Until then, it cannot be built and it still wavers in front of the eyes of those of us who live on that eastern leg, and there is no certainty.

As I said earlier, I am a proud resident of Sheffield. It is my adopted home. I have lived there for more than 20 years and I am a former leader of its council. I see the great entrepreneurship of many people and businesses but I also see the great opportunities that are dampened because of the lack of connectivity, not just between Sheffield and London via HS2, but between Sheffield and other cities and towns in the north.

As the noble Lord, Lord McLoughlin, said, HS2 is about not just speed but capacity. It is about allowing part of the jigsaw of economic opportunities to be unleashed and improving capacity. In particular, it is about allowing freight to move more freely on the existing rail lines and moving passengers faster. It is absolutely integrated. Until the Government build that, we will not have levelling up in this country.

The north is not a homogenous blob. It is made up of towns, cities and villages. It is made up of the people who live there and the businesses that trade there. This infrastructure, going up through the East Midlands to Sheffield and Leeds, is absolutely vital to the levelling-up project and to unleashing opportunities. I must say to the Minister that we in the north say it as we see it. We smell something not quite right here. We smell the whiff of a fudge and dither and delay when it comes to the eastern leg through the East Midlands to Sheffield and Leeds.

If the reports in the northern press over the weekend about the National Infrastructure Commission are anything to go by, we really are worried. I am sure that the Minister will say from the Dispatch Box that she cannot comment on what was in the press over the weekend, but the reports were very clear. They said that a source close to the commission has made it clear that the recommendation possibly will not go ahead and that, if it does, the other option will be to make sure that it does not happen until much later. That is unacceptable. That is not levelling up; it is dumbing down the opportunities of many people in the north.

We want the line as soon as possible. As I said previously, this is simply because the opportunities offered by the eastern leg are greater than those offered by the western leg. Spending on the eastern leg is less per head than on the western leg and deprivation along the eastern leg is higher. Therefore, in creating economic opportunities for people, we must know that this project is on the statute book and will be built so that investment can begin and people can start speculating about what jobs and businesses can be created along that line.

While I entirely welcome this Bill, I worry about the eastern phase. As I have said, the north is not just one. It is interconnected and therefore we need parity on the west and the east if we are to have equal access to levelling up, high speed rail and the capacity it brings for people and businesses. That is why, while welcoming this Bill, I support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Morris of Bolton) (Con)]

I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, has withdrawn, so I now call the noble Earl, Lord Lytton.

High Speed Rail (West Midlands–Crewe) Bill

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords & Report stage
Monday 30th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Curry of Kirkharle (CB) [V]]

My Lords, it is a privilege to follow the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, whose commitment to HS2 is very well known. I must say that I am impressed with his tie. I have a pair of socks which I clearly need to donate to him to match. As the noble Lord has mentioned, I have the honour of being a member of a commission which was established by the North East LEP and which was chaired by the noble Lord about five years ago. It was a revealing exercise even for someone like myself, who has lived in the north-east all my life.

It is almost slightly irritating for those of us who live in the far north of England—the north-east or the north-west—that, when viewed from London or the south-east, the north begins somewhere north of Nottingham and stretches to Sheffield and Manchester, while the vast area of England beyond that disappears into a fog and is too often regarded by those who live there as being neglected and ignored. This is the case with the existing plans for HS2. I have never regarded HS2 as just an attempt to deliver passengers from Euston to Birmingham 15 minutes earlier than is the case at present, but as a necessary investment to increase the capacity of the rail network. It is essential that the increased capacity planned is extended further north, beyond the current plan.

The north-east has some interesting and contrasting economic features. On the one hand, the region has one of the highest, if not the highest, proportion of GVA being exported of any English region, thanks to some very large companies such as Nissan. On the other hand, the north-east has some of the lowest indices in England, whether it be unemployment, average income levels, many social indicators, productivity and so on. For all these reasons—whether to support existing successful businesses or to help level up and address the long-standing economic and social issues—we need a commitment from Her Majesty’s Government to extend HS2 from the West Midlands to Leeds, as this amendment suggests, so that Yorkshire and the north-east can look forward to improved connectivity to assist in economic growth and address many of these long-seated social problems.

We all welcome the Government’s relatively recent announcement to invest in a whole range of infrastructure projects in the north. Many of these have been on our wish list for decades and are an important start to address the levelling-up commitment of the Government, but there is a very long way to go to satisfy the residents of the north of England. Supporting this amendment to extend HS2 would be a further, and very important, welcome step by the Government; it would show that they are committed to supporting the north and delivering an integrated rail network, as the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, has very effectively outlined. It is essential to improve access and assist in delivering economic growth. I do hope that the Minister will change her mind and accept this amendment.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Curry of Kirkharle, and his passion for the north. I probably have to disappoint both the noble Lords, Lord Curry and Lord Adonis, as I do not have the sartorial elegance of the socks of the noble Lord, Lord Curry, and I definitely do not have a tie like that of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis.

It is ironic that the day that we are having to debate this amendment is the first day in the north that we do not have Pacer trains—a change promised for a couple of years, and 35 years later we were still travelling along on “trucks on rails” as they were called. It is ironic that, on the day that we thought things were moving forward, we are here seeking a commitment from the Government—not just warm words but a commitment—to make sure that our railways in the north on the eastern leg are equivalent to what is going to happen up to Manchester.

There is a history of warm words from the Government and then things not happening, particularly on the Midland main line. I remember—I think I was a local councillor in Sheffield at the time—being told that we were going to have electrification of the Midland main line. That was stolen from us. We were told, “No, you don’t need that anymore. We’re going to have some modern hybrid trains running off hydrogen”—trains that do not exist to perform what is actually needed. So, the Minister can stand at that Dispatch Box and give us all the warm words in the world; the fact is, people in Sheffield and Leeds will not believe the promises. They will look at this amendment and wonder why a firm commitment could not be given to bring forward a plan, through law, and why we cannot get the equivalent of what is happening up on the western leg.

Trains: East Midlands

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Monday 19th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I believe I have been able to explain that between Lincoln and Nottingham an awful lot of work is going on—to improve not only the time taken to travel between those two places but the frequency of the trains. For example, I reassure the noble Lord that, in addition to the measures I have already spoken about, there are plans to see two new services in each direction from May 2021, and then three more services after that each way from 2022.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Bradshaw pointed out that on the wider regional network the average speed is 30 mph, which is not competitive for freight and businesses, and not good for the environment. The Minister pointed out that there will be a three-minute improvement, but can we come back to speed? In five years’ time, when the arrangements that she mentioned will have been made, what will be the average speed on this line per journey? If she does not have those figures to hand, could she please write to me with them?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord will not be surprised to know that I do not have the average speed figures to hand, but one look at that line tells you that there are quite a number of stations, and they bring down the overall average speed. For example, on the Newark to Nottingham section, the new signalling system will allow speeds of up to 90 mph. It is key to get the trains moving much faster between the stations, although I accept that the average speed will be significantly below that.

Railways: Midland Main Line

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Thursday 25th April 2019 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Scriven]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the Midland Mainline will be electrified all the way to Sheffield.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the midland main line enhancement programme will extend electrification from Bedford to Kettering and, subject to design, Market Harborough. Further to this, HS2 phase 2B will electrify the line from Clay Cross to Sheffield. The Department for Transport has taken the decision not to extend electrification beyond this, but instead to deliver new bi-mode trains for intercity services. This will mean that passengers benefit from faster journeys, more seats and better-quality trains.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

I welcome the Minister to her new post and wish her well. However, the Royal Institute of Mechanical Engineers and the Rail Industry Association point out that hydrogen bi-modal trains, which look to be piloted on this line, cannot exceed 87 miles per hour and cost more over the lifespan than electrification, while the capacity for storage means that they are not suitable for high-speed, long-distance railway trains. Why are those organisations wrong and the department correct?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank the noble Lord for his kind words and pay tribute to my predecessor, my noble friend Lady Sugg. People say to me, “She was a very good Minister, you know?”—yes, I know exactly what they mean. Bi-mode trains at the moment run on electricity and diesel, depending on electrification of the track. GWR is already running these trains, and they will be available on LNER on 19 May. The noble Lord talks about hydrogen cell trains, which are a very important development. Abellio, which has the East Midlands franchise, will trial those trains from 2026. With all due respect to current experts, I expect there to be improvements in these trains and we will see how they work when they come into trial in 2026.