Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) (Amendment) (No. 3) Regulations 2020

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Thursday 25th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Scriven (LD) [V]]

My Lords, we play a game of illusion—a pretence that these regulations that put restrictions on citizens and keep parts of the economy closed are enacted with the agreement of Parliament. No. These regulations stem from emergency executive powers. Like lapdogs, we are discussing regulations that we cannot influence, revise or halt. Ministers sit in an office and decide the law, knowing that they are immune from normal parliamentary procedures and cannot be held to account. Maybe, back in March, quick-footed action was required due to the slowness of starting lockdown—but is who you can now meet in your back garden really an emergency power?

In the three debates we have had, I have not heard the Minister convincingly explain why we still need emergency legislation to gradually unlock the country. We do not live in a pre-Covid world, so we need to act and behave differently to ensure that the chain of transmission is slowed and broken. The Government should now focus on introducing a framework that allows proportionate, smart and targeted measures; they need to stop this executive, blunt, catch-all approach.

Powers and responsibilities need to be in place to hit local outbreaks fast and hard. Ministers say that powers are in place to implement local lockdowns. That is news to many on the front line and in local communities. Powers exist to close a building, but will the Minister inform the House who has the power to lock down a small area within a town or city when this is needed, and which laws stop that community moving about the whole town or city they live in? That detail is needed, not a general statement that the powers exist. The time for these blunt and undemocratic regulations has passed. We now need smart, targeted and effective local powers to break the chain of transmission and keep people safe. I look forward to the Minister convincing the House that these are indeed in place.

Covid-19: Test and Trace App

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Monday 22nd June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell]

My Lords, it has been my experience that working with some of the biggest companies in the world in pharmaceuticals, in diagnostics and in tech has brought to the fore the paramount importance of partnership with big industry. We have benefited enormously from such partnerships and I thank some of the major companies that we have worked with. However, it is undoubtedly the case that government has its own agenda and it is important that we work to champion the needs of the British public, which is where our biggest interests lie.

[Lord Scriven (LD) [V]]

All avenues to reduce the transmission of coronavirus have to be seriously explored, so what was to be gained by NHSX and the UK Government refusing over a period of months positively to engage with those involved in the COVID Symptom Study app?

Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2020

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Monday 15th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Scriven (LD) [V]]

My Lords, this debate is nothing more than a charade—a mere illusion of scrutiny and accountability of government. We are discussing regulations that have already been amended twice by a ministerial pen. We cannot change them or make recommendations to improve them. These are Henry VIII powers on steroids.

The introduction to the regulations states:

“The Secretary of State considers that the restrictions and requirements imposed by these Regulations are proportionate to what they seek to achieve, which is a public health response to that threat … the Secretary of State is of the opinion that, by reason of urgency, it is necessary to make this instrument without a draft having been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament.”


It is debatable whether there was any urgent need to make these amendments to the regulations before placing a draft before Parliament. These amendments make changes that, in the view of the Government, are urgent and required for the lockdown. It stretches matters too far to say that these changes have to be introduced as a matter of urgency. They were not issues that crept upon the Government within a few days. These executive orders, decided behind closed Whitehall doors, have serious implications for citizens’ movements and freedoms. This has to stop. It makes a mockery of Parliament and our civil liberties, and is a power grab by Ministers trying to avoid in-depth parliamentary scrutiny.

Government incompetence, backed up by total executive power, is not what is needed but unfortunately that is what we now have in dealing with Covid-19. Why have the Government deemed this matter to be so urgent and in need of emergency powers at this stage of the Covid-19 pandemic? If they had acted with competence, and faster, at the start of the pandemic, some of the restrictions to our freedoms in these regulations would not be required now.

When a public inquiry is held, as it will be, the lack of action early on, with the instigation of a lockdown and the lack of action in February to implement an at-scale test, trace and isolate system that would have saved British lives, will be key issues. Different and faster actions would have changed the journey of Covid-19 on these isles.

Some of the provisions in these regulations that restrict some of our freedoms are the direct result of government incompetence and slowness to act. Regulations made behind closed doors and then presented to Parliament in this way indicate a Government who are trying to close the stable door after the horse has bolted. With over 41,000 deaths, this is not the way to deal with the pandemic. Therefore, will the Minister commit to the future tabling of draft amendments to these regulations for the resolution of both Houses before they become law? That is required to get the balance correct when dealing with this public health crisis and protecting our freedoms and movements.

Contact Tracing: Personal Privacy

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Thursday 11th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell [V]]

My Lords, the greatest insight from the Isle of Wight experiment was that human contact tracing needed to be the first stage of our rollout of the test and trace programme and that, in the sequence of things, the app should come later, when people have got used to the principle of contact tracing. The use of private companies by the Government is commonplace, and we have had no adverse comment on or reaction to that usage.

[Lord Scriven (LD) [V]]

Ten years is the norm for holding medical research data, so what epidemiological reasons require data from the app uploaded to the NHS central database to be held for 20 years?

[Lord Bethell [V]]

My Lords, the data that an individual puts on the app is entirely voluntary. No data is held for more than 28 days until somebody takes a test. Once that test has taken place, the individual has the opportunity to upload further data. That data is held for clinical trials and to help us understand the epidemic. There is the opportunity for us to delete all that data at the end of the epidemic, and that assessment will be made at the right time.

Covid-19: Response

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Viscount asks an incredibly broad question, upon which many a treatise could be written. I can best answer by giving my personal experience, which is of being in meetings where the scientists absolutely lead our thinking, where their clinical judgment takes precedence over any lay opinion and where we have been advised by unbelievably impressive and experienced clinicians, epidemiologists and scientists from different groups. My experience is that those voices have been the ones that prevailed in almost every debate. However, not everything can be answered by scientists and there are political decisions to be made. Ultimately, major decisions such as on lockdown, on the strategy for test and trace and on how to run a vaccine strategy are informed by scientists, but politicians have to make big calls. That is the same in every single major national project. I think we have got the balance right. We have tried to put the science, quite rightly, at the heart of the decision-making, and sometimes we have been led into quite politically awkward situations by the good judgment of our scientists. I pay tribute to them and their judgment. My personal experience is that we have listened to and been led by them wherever necessary.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, I remind the Minister that holding the Government to account for their decisions in no way undermines front-line workers, whose jobs have sometimes been made harder by their decisions. As the Government say that we are moving to local flare-ups, which body has full responsibility and legal powers—now, today—to implement and control a local lockdown?

[Lord Bethell]

The arrangements for local lockdowns are not fully in place. In fact, the policy around them is in development and a full decision has not been made on what arrangements we will make for lockdowns. The joint biosecurity centre will be absolutely central to those arrangements. It is the hub into which the intelligence on prevalence and infectiousness comes and which pushes that information out into the local area to help advise directors of public health, local authorities and other local services on local arrangements. I believe that it will develop the expertise and the co-ordination role which the noble Lord asks about.

Covid-19: NHS Contact Tracing App

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Monday 18th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell]

My Lords, the testing and tracing regime depends on three legs: access to tests; updated methods of the classic contact tracing run by individuals, using phones and the internet; and lastly, importantly but not exclusively, the NHS app. We are very much focused on ensuring that the vulnerable, the elderly and the digitally poor are in no way excluded, which is why we have put the human element at the centre of our plans.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

Will the Minister give a cast-iron guarantee that, as the app evolves, it will not use location tracking or seek personal identification information as a condition of use?

Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Tuesday 12th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, these regulations are about the management of public health, not how to uphold public order. It is, therefore, a great pity that, due to the way that the Government have introduced them, the debate has become mainly about public order. Confusion was initially due to the words and grand statements of Ministers which were, at times, at odds with the actual provisions of the statutory instrument. On exercise, Ministers said, “Once a day, close to home”. Yet the SI does not restrict individuals to that. We had police stopping people unnecessarily and Derbyshire police using drones to shame people walking legally. There were issues around shopping, with Ministers talking about what “essential items” were. Yet the SI does not define essential or non-essential items; it states the law on where you can buy them. We had trolley spying by some police forces and the famous Easter egg debate. None of these was to do with public health issues around Covid-19. The police college had to send out guidance to cut through ministerial soundbites and state what was actually law within the SI. We are taking note of them again but tomorrow, as the Minister said, some of the provisions will change, due to them being out of date and as the new, graduated, measures to release lockdown start.

However, confusion has started again as we debate, not the science of public health, but the words and confusions of Ministers on public order issues. For example, public health advice indicates that you have a low transmission risk if you meet one other person outside your household outdoors and stay two metres apart. Yet the debate is now about the difference between meeting in a park or in your garden. The public health message is again getting lost: it makes no difference to public health, or the transmission of the virus, whether you meet one person outside, at a distance of two metres, in a garden or a park. Are we going to have police tiptoeing over people’s garden fences to see whether they are meeting one other person outside their household?

These SIs, and the new ones tomorrow, will be an important part of public health measures and the management of Covid-19. Will the Minister and the Government keep to that, and not give us soundbites that focus on people in parks or gardens, or on Easter eggs? We need to see these as helping to reduce Covid-19 and enhancing public health and not as a matter of public order where the debate moves away from people feeling safe and knowing to do the right things which the SIs say by law they have to.

Covid-19: Contact-tracing App

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Wednesday 6th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell]

My noble friend Lady Blackwood is entirely right. The testing and the surveillance done by testing give us powerful insight into the demographic reach of the virus and information on a very broad basis on the regional reach, but we are looking for a much more granular level of detail from the very powerful, multimillion level of detail that the app can provide. The value of those surveillance details has led us to design the app in the way we have.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

Matt Hancock has said that the app is to flag up our proximity to someone else using the app, not to track our movements. So why do the terms and conditions of the app request access to track our precise location based on GPS or network-based systems?

[Lord Bethell]

My Lords, the app works by using the Bluetooth tags which are shared once you have declared symptoms or you have had a positive test. It does not rely on GPS tracking. If the terms and conditions are broader, that is because we want to try to provide the most thorough set of conditions that encompass all the data provided by the user’s telephone. However, I can reassure the House that it is Bluetooth tagging that is used by the app and the surveillance system.

Covid-19

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Thursday 23rd April 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, is not entirely right. We have fantastic manufacturing in the UK—I reinforce the view of my noble friend Lady Buscombe that the sector provides jobs for the economy—but we do not have low-margin, high-volume manufacturing. The image of a Burberry gown always sticks in my mind on this point. Burberry makes £500 shooting jackets, but it does not make £5 surgical gowns. That is something that we need to address, and it will be the priority of my noble friend Lord Deighton.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, the South Korean prevalence rate is so low because they have tested, traced and isolated since day one. The Government initially did this and then stopped it. Ten days ago, they said that there would be 1,000 tracers; now, the figure has gone up to 18,000. Why have the Government not kept this system going consistently, which South Korea has proved reduces the prevalence rate of the virus?

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Lord, Lord Scriven, is not correct to say that the Government decided to stop track and trace; there are still PHE track and traces, but when the disease reaches a certain level of prevalence, it simply is not arithmetically possible to track down every new incidence of the disease. Nor is it true that anyone in the Government said that we would have only 1,000 tracers in our call centres. Plans which I have seen are being drafted at the moment which are wildly more ambitious than that. It is our plan to put together a system that is proportionate to the challenge.

Coronavirus Bill

Lord Scriven Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 24th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, what extraordinary times we live in. Those who have followed Sheffield politics will know that the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, and I tend to disagree quite a lot on things, but on this occasion, I agree with quite a lot of what he had to say.

This Bill has jaw-dropping and eye-popping powers, which, if we were to have them explained to us in the normal run of the mill, would lead us to think that a military dictatorship had just come in and was trying to get control. However, we are not in normal circumstances when it comes to some of the powers needed to deal with this public health crisis—that is what we need to call it; let us stop using the words of war and talk about the battle to keep people alive and safe. We are in a public health crisis and some of the powers will be needed.

The role of this Parliament and this House over the next two days will be to try to improve the Bill wherever we can and, I hope, to persuade the Government to accept some of the suggestions that will come from around this Chamber. Our role is also to make sure that the powers that the Government and individual Ministers wish to take are reasonable and proportionate to the public health crisis that we face. Some of them will be tough measures, and we understand why, but we will also have to make sure that the Bill’s powers are for the minimum length of time possible and are to deal only with the coronavirus.

A number of provisions in the Bill, particularly those to do with local elections and their suspension, do not refer to coronavirus—in the clauses or the schedules. I understand that the Bill may have been written in haste, but we need to be clear. Every clause and every schedule needs to refer to coronavirus. The power in the Bill for Ministers to extend, for two years, also had no reference to extending purely because of coronavirus.

I would like to explore this issue with the Minister: why six months? If the powers are so broad, why does Parliament and this House not get a say every three months, not just to debate the issue but to get a vote on some of the issues? The powers are so wide and have such effects on individual lives that such a vote is needed.

The social care provisions will mean that the lives of some of the most vulnerable people will become intolerable. If the pressure on local authorities means that they cannot make such provision, which they have to legally, individual lives and families could be shattered. These powers are so wide, with their effects on individuals and families, that three months is long enough. What, in dealing with this public health crisis, would prevent a review at three months?

I declare my interests in the register as a vice-president of the Local Government Association and, like the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, a former leader of Sheffield City Council. Those of us who have been council leaders will know that many issues arise in a local community in the normal run of things, and local government does not always have the power to deal with them, even though communities look to local government to do so. In fact, local government is probably best placed to make clever, local interventions to deal with the problems that people face. Local government will have to deal with many issues that are not in the Bill. What if the vast majority of refuse collectors get the virus? How will the refuse be collected? If it is not, it will lead to another public health issue, for environmental health officers.

It would be wise to give local authorities a general power of direction on burials and on death so that, if they give an instruction, bodies in their jurisdiction have to act. It will go much wider than death; there will be many things that great planners and people who work in Whitehall have not thought of because the consequences are probably unintended or have not been thought through, but it will be down to somebody in each local area to make significant decisions about what is needed. If we are to help local communities to survive as best they can and deal with the issues that no one has thought of, we will have to give somebody—I suggest that it should be a local authority—a general power of direction. I urge the Minister to look at that carefully.

Finally, I thank the many hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of individuals up and down this country who are volunteering and supporting their local community in trying to get through this, especially the great people on the front line of our NHS and the people who are keeping our shelves stocked. Those local efforts and individual interventions will help communities to get through this.