Personal Protective Equipment: Waste

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Tuesday 14th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The noble Baroness will recognise that I was not in post at the time, but I have been advised by officials in the department that they put feelers out to as many people as possible. Government officials, Members of the House of Lords and politicians from all parties were suggesting companies, and that was put through a process whereby the department made an assessment of whether it was able to award contracts.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, the National Audit Office found that the department is currently spending approximately £7 million a month on storing 3.9 billion PPE items that it does not now need. That is the equivalent of employing 2,400 extra nurses a year. Why are Ministers allowing this waste of taxpayers’ money to continue?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right that we are paying storage costs, and over the last few months there has been a reduction in storage and the Government have been looking at more cost-effective ways. However, the overall strategy—and why we have two lead waste providers looking at the issue—is to ask how we can sell, donate, repurpose or recycle wherever we can. For equipment where complex chains of polymers cannot be broken down—chemists would understand this better—we are looking at how we can dispose of it in the most environmentally friendly way.

NHS: Abuse of Nurses

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Tuesday 5th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The NHS is looking at a number of different ways of tackling violence towards staff, as well as supporting them in how to handle difficult situations and giving them well-being support. On the specific issue that the noble Baroness raises, it is probably better if I commit to writing to her.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, the individuals who abuse healthcare staff should understand and then pay for the harm they cause and be helped to change their behaviour. To augment existing arrangements, will the Government therefore look at implementing an NHS restorative justice scheme?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

We are looking at the way in which abusers are treated. On 13 November 2018, the Assaults on Emergency Workers (Offences) Act 2018 came into force, and since 2020 we have also been working with the Ministry of Justice in consulting on doubling the sentence for such assaults to two years. The Government are now legislating for this through the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill. In addition, a Joint Agreement on Offences Against Emergency Workers was agreed between NHS England and NHS Improvement and the Crown Prosecution Service in January 2020.

Health and Care Bill

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Report stage
Thursday 3rd March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, I support the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, and declare my interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association.

There has been a whole debate at Second Reading and in Committee about the equality of local government and the NHS in this regard. Importantly, local government focuses on place because it is used to doing so. If, as the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, has said, the legislation does not include powers to delegate right down to local government so that it can work with the NHS—which it sees as its key responsibility—then there will be a gap, and this will not be seen as a true partnership. More importantly, the powers that would unleash some of the issues central to the Bill—better integration, reducing health inequalities and improving health outcomes—will not be achieved. There will not be the powers of delegation that will be allowed to place when innovation starts.

That is why the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, are important, particularly Amendment 96, on the roles of the place board. If the Government do not take this forward, it will be a total abdication. Place will be important in unleashing innovation, and the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, has rightly pointed out this gap in the legislation.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, has made some important and sensible points, and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s reply.

My noble friend Lord Scriven raised the important question of the role of local authorities. I simply want to add that I happen to know that some of the chairs-designate of the ICBs would really like to know the answer to the question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, early on in his speech. What is the relationship of the health and well-being boards to the ICBs? If those people are confused, it is not surprising that noble Lords are too.

Health and Care Bill

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Report stage
Tuesday 1st March 2022 Lords Chamber

We have a world choked with plastic. We have a world wildly overheating. We have a world—as the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, said—where biodiversity is in collapse. I think the NHS is starting to focus on these things, but we need to see, as the IPCC said, that health and environment are not two separate issues. We live in the environment, and we have to look after it in every part of our activities.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, I rise for the first time on Report and declare my interests as laid out in the register, particularly as a non-executive director of Chesterfield Royal Hospital NHS Trust and as a vice-president of the Local Government Association. We on these Benches welcome this suite of amendments, with a caveat of clarification that the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, raised, to do with not just the climate but the implications for the environment.

The reason we welcome this suite of amendments is that it is vital that there is mandatory guidance from the centre to all parts of the system in the NHS. The only thing I seek to push the Minister on is that she said the guidance would be out within 12 months. I ask that, as we are in a crisis and this is important, it is done as soon as possible. The reason for this—I have experience of it from Chesterfield—is that some of the procurement or building decisions made today will not come around for maybe three or four years, but the design and implications that start today have life cycle implications for both the climate and environment over a long period. So, I strongly push the Minister to ask that the guidance is out as fast as possible, and we do not wait for the whole 12 months.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, am a member of Peers for the Planet and I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, on their engagement with the Government and thank them for taking their concerns on board.

I have previously raised the fact that a big way in which the NHS can reduce its emissions is by having energy-efficient buildings, and I should like reassurance that any new buildings and refurbishment of the NHS estate will involve highly insulated and low-energy buildings. There are so many things that the NHS can do by using low-energy lighting, reducing microplastics, using compostable single-use plastic or not using plastic at all and using microwaves to deal with clinical waste, because they are much more energy efficient. How will all this be reviewed after the Bill has passed? Will there be any reporting back on how well the NHS has been able to respond to this challenge?

Health and Care Bill

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Report stage
Tuesday 1st March 2022 Lords Chamber

So my amendment is there to ensure that this does not get forgotten in the way that services are commissioned and planned for, and so that rehabilitation is viewed as an integral part of the follow-on after the acute phase, as people get home, transition from hospital into the community and look towards resuming their life. It might well be very different from the life they had before, but this would enable them to fulfil their potential.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, I support the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, to which I have added my name. I think the noble Lord had to table these amendments because the Minister said when we discussed this in Committee that his challenge was to ensure that

“primary care is better represented and not dominated by acute trusts.”—[Official Report, 20/1/22; col. 1854.]

We expected something to come back that did exactly that, because the very fact the Minister said that suggested that the Government had accepted that there was a potential imbalance with the role of primary care.

I come back to the purpose of the Bill, which I did a number of times in Committee. The purpose of the Bill is to bring about effective integration, improve health outcomes and reduce health inequalities. That is underpinned by making primary care central to healthcare planning and ideas about healthcare, following through on those plans and having primary care as an equal partner in the ICB. So we moved away from who we want on the board to asking very simply for primary care to be treated as an equal in the planning, implementation and monitoring of what will happen in health and social care in the area. It is disappointing that, despite the Minister’s suggestion that he would go away and look at this, nothing new has come back since Committee to deal with that.

What new has come back on Report which makes sure that primary care can be better represented and not dominated by acute trusts in this new system? My worry is that the Bill giving this to NHS acute trusts and foundation trusts signals which are most important within the system. If primary care does not have that equity, there will be unrealistic expectations and uninformed decisions made in planning for final decisions and tactical, not transformational, systems and services, which will not represent the full view of primary care. It is for those reasons that I support the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, and look forward to the Minister bringing to the House’s attention what new proposals are in here on Report to do with the challenge that he set himself: to ensure that primary care has a bigger voice and is not dominated by the acute sector.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I added my name to the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, and echo the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, on the Minister’s offer in Committee to go back to see how the potential dominance of acute trusts could be mitigated by ensuring that the voice of primary care was heard loud and clear in the various decision-making bodies.

It is a pity that it is a very late hour, because primary care warrants a much wider debate, given the challenges it undoubtedly faces. We are all aware of the workforce issues, such as the reluctance of many GPs to take on partnerships and that so many GPs will do only part-time work, partly because of the pressures. It is because of those challenges and because primary care is so valued in this country that we need some assurances that the people running the new system being introduced through this legislation will be concerned with and listen to primary care.

It is somewhat ironic. The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, is not here any more, but in a sense, we are seeing a transformation from what he hoped would be a GP-led system through clinical commissioning groups to one which looks very strongly acute care-led in the integrated care boards. As someone who was spent quite a lot of my time in the health service around acute trusts, I do not particularly worry about acute trusts being listened to, because we depend on them so much. We really need assurance that integrated care boards will take primary care seriously.

Finally, whatever concerns and reservations we on this side of the House had about clinical commissioning groups, some GPs undoubtedly rose to the challenge of leadership within them. I should be very concerned if they were lost from the new arrangements. It would be good to know that the Government recognise that and will ensure that a place is found for them in the new system.

Covid-19: Lateral Flow Tests

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Thursday 10th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I should perhaps start with some background on this and why we have reached the situation we are in. Her Majesty’s Government began the large-scale procurement of Covid-19 test kits at the height of the pandemic. To ensure supplies for the universal testing offer, Porton Down assesses tests offered to Government. It found that three-quarters of those offered failed to meet their stated performance in their instructions for use. For most testing technology, the manufacturer needed only to do self-assessment to meet the CE marking rules, but clearly, when they were tested, they were not meeting those standards. We considered that the current standard was insufficient and did not keep bad tests off the market. That is why we had a public consultation in April that showed strong support for a more rigorous regime. In terms of avoiding a cliff edge, as it were, if they have not been validated, we are looking at solutions.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, reports indicate that the Government are seeking to implement testing only in health care settings and for the most vulnerable people, along with stopping the requirement to self-isolate if a person has Covid-19, in the next two weeks. What evidence from SAGE and NERVTAG do the Government have to show that at present, this is in the best public health interest of the country?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I am not aware of any announcements or measures that accord with the noble Lord’s question.

Covid-19: Lockdowns

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Wednesday 9th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My noble friend raises an important issue about the trade-offs that had to be considered when the Government announced the lockdown and plan A measures. They also announced measures to restrict the transmission of the disease. Costs and benefits had to be weighed up. It was often a nuanced decision. We are clear about the backlog in tackling mental health issues. In debates on the Health and Social Care Bill, many noble Lords across the House have expressed the importance of tackling mental health issues in this country. We hope to put that at the forefront of future health policy.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, all papers with modelled counterfactuals are excluded from the report mentioned in the noble Lord’s Question. As this is the most common method used in infectious disease assessments, does the Minister agree that this has the practical effect of excluding most epidemiological research from the review?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

Had I still been in academia and was asked to referee this paper for a journal, I would have pointed out a number of issues, including the focus and bias on one particular study, for example, and the studies that were excluded without justifying why.

Health and Care Bill

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 9th February 2022 Lords Chamber

These issues are hard and I am sure we will discuss them again. Will the Minister acknowledge the problems and the need for them to be addressed?

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, I would also like to speak quickly on these amendments. The last suite of amendments was about professionals having confidence in the health service. Patient data is the bedrock of individuals and citizens having confidence in their health service and how their data is used. I used the phrase “living in a parallel universe” in Committee a few days ago. Today, the Government published Joining up Care for People, Places and Populations, their proposals for health and social care integration. On reading chapter 4 on digital and data, it would appear that we are living in a parallel universe, because there are clear issues about what the Government say this integration will be. The document states:

“This will ensure each ICS has a functional and single health care and adult social care record for each citizen by 2024”.


There is nothing about opt-out. This is a very clear view about what will happen. I will explain why it is a fantasy world in a minute.

I come back to Amendment 300 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. There is a really important thing about the standard process for opt-out. In the area where I live, there is a DGH, a teaching hospital, a community care trust, a mental health trust, a maternity unit, a social care provider—it could be the council or from the voluntary and third sector—and my GP. If there is no standardised approach to opt-out, it will be needed in nine or 10 organisations. That is why we need a standard opt-out approach. It is absolutely wrong for the citizen to trail through nine different organisations, probably with nine different processes, if they wish to opt out, because not every citizen may wish to be part of a single health and adult social care record by 2024. I hope that most will, because they are important, but there is the issue of opt-out.

The document goes on to state how data will be used; it goes way beyond individual healthcare. It talks about population health platforms, and how data will be used and can be directed with a single standard from the centre. On information governance, paragraph 4.15 says that

“This will make sure that when it is accessed or provided (for whatever purpose), it is in a standard form, both readable by and consistently meaningful to the user or recipient”.


It is good to have it in a standard form but “for whatever purpose” leads to a wider definition. The document also says that the standard will be laid out in the Bill but, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said, that is at the direction of the Secretary of State through regulation, which is worrying.

I ask the Minister, clearly, how this new document fits with the Bill we are discussing. Why, yet again, is a White Paper ahead of the legislation we are talking about today? There are things we could amend that would stop some of the things in this White Paper.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I will respond to the debate, but my comments apply equally to the next group, so I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, will forgive me if I do not respond to that group separately. We have heard some very thoughtful and persuasive contributions to the debate on these amendments this evening, and once again my noble friend Lord Hunt and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, have very eloquently led the charge. I congratulate them on their contributions and the constructive detail of their proposals. Issues such as this require some specific proposals to have any meaning and their amendments very much do that: they spell out some solutions to the challenges we face. I also welcome the specific proposal from the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, who made the case well for a single identifier for children.

The underlying issues around the use of information collected by the NHS are not new. As we know and have heard, the NHS is almost unique in being a single player in this field, at least for some purposes. It can and often does lead the world in its ability to collect and aggregate patient data to drive improvement and for other non-profit-making purposes.

Since the organisational changes of the 1990s, data collection and use have been well developed, and information and analysis—for example, from the Secondary Uses Service and some GP sources—have been extensively used by academics and researchers, as well as operational managers, to huge public benefit. But we have struggled, as we have heard. Despite hugely expensive meanders into, for example, the National Programme for IT, we are far from the goal of integrated data sharing, even in a single hospital, let alone all hospitals, let alone for all care. Clearly, technical, legal and cultural barriers need to be overcome before we can maximise the use of all the data collected.

As noble Lords have pointed out, the groundswell of opposition to data collection and the related concerns about who gets to use it and for what purposes runs along these barriers. We know that the NHS often has dismal communications—for example, around CareCo and the recent changes to the use of GP data, which we have heard about this evening.

Although we do not own our data, there is a very powerful set of legal protections over what data can be collected and stored about us and what it can be used for. If the public had absolute confidence in the systems and usage rules, there would be far fewer objections to their information being used to drive improved healthcare, innovative drugs research or better preventive or public health information programmes. But the reality is that concerns are widespread—about data breaches, about NHS data reaching people who do not need to see it and, more recently, as we have heard, about data being used by a number of unethical organisations and private companies to drive profitability rather than for the improvement of public health.

Many patients would wish to be able to refuse to allow data collected about them to be used simply to drive a better marketing campaign for slimming or cosmetic aids but would allow their data to be aggregated so that better drugs could be developed and treatments improved to save lives; that would be an altogether different matter. Amendment 305A, in the name of my noble friend Lord Hunt, on establishing a sovereign health fund to invest in data-driven healthcare assets to generate long-term income for health and care makes that point, and I am sure it would have public support.

The key principle should be that all data collected for the purposes of care should be held and controlled by the public sector and its use protected. It should be subject to ethical guidelines and independently verified by an expert oversight group. These amendments would strengthen these rights in those regards.

Anyone who visited a hospital 20 years ago and walked around would probably have come across a trolley stacked with files that could easily have been removed or read. However, IT and the ability to aggregate vast amounts of data, allowing serious data breaches, is a modern and valid concern. My noble friend Lord Davies illustrated this with specific concerns about smart programmes which can identify individual people from a very small amount of data about their lives.

So we do feel that these amendments would be a very helpful way to address the underlying and fundamental problems of the lack of patient and public confidence in how their data is going to be used and shared. I hope the Minister, the noble Baroness—no, it is the noble Lord—agrees that these proposals offer a helpful way forward in addressing these concerns. While we will not press the amendments to a vote this evening, I hope he is able to offer some reassurance that some of these practical proposals will be taken forward by the Government.

Vaccination: Condition of Deployment

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Thursday 3rd February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I begin by agreeing with the sentiments expressed by the noble Baroness that we should not necessarily be labelling people who decide not to take the vaccine. We should understand individual choice, but with freedom comes responsibility, and we always have to get that balance right. At the same time, I do not think that some of the characterisations that have been given are helpful. Having said that, if people have stopped other people being vaccinated, they should be dealt with by the law. The noble Baroness and I agree on individual choice, but, clearly, this was an emergency and people were dying and it was important that patients going into hospitals and care homes felt confident that they were being treated by staff who would not pass the virus on to them. There is always a difficult balance between liberty and responsibility.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, I come back to the really important issue raised by my noble friend Lady Brinton about the letter that went out last night to providers of CQC-regulated adult social care activities, except for care homes. My noble friend gave the Minister three hours’ notice of this question because, if care homes do not receive a letter by midnight tonight, under the law they will have to send out notices of termination to staff. Can the Minister give an absolute guarantee that, by midnight, or as early as possible, a letter will go out to stop the confusion whereby many care home providers do not know whether to keep their staff or send out a letter of termination? This is critical.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I hope that the noble Lord will forgive me, but I had a lot of meetings on the Bill today. When the questions came in and I saw the original answer, to be perfectly frank, I was not content with it and I pushed back, which is why I need more time to answer the question.

We are completely clear. We intend to revoke the requirement in its entirety for both care homes and the health and wider care sectors. The care home requirement has been in force since 11 November, but the requirement for health and wider social care was not due to come into force until 1 April. This means that first doses would have been needed by today in order for people to be fully vaccinated by 1 April. We wrote to the sector to clarify how the 3 February deadline would be impacted by the Government’s intention to revoke the regulations. While this particular question was specific to wider social care settings, not care homes, the letter was clear that we intended to revoke them for both care homes and wider social care.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

One of the things we have constantly done has been to listen—I had daily calls over the Christmas period, for example—and follow the evidence. Clearly, one of the issues may well have been staffing and warnings of potential shortages, and we had to balance all that up. As the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said, these things are nuanced; there are number of different factors we have to consider.

As for professional responsibility, on more than one call I have been on with senior NHS staff, clinicians and senior practitioners, they have told me that in their codes—for example, the GMC code and the nursing code—there is a professional duty to be vaccinated against transmissible diseases. Clearly, that is an issue. The NHS has had to speak to individual clinicians, those who have been reluctant, to try to press that issue, but clearly it came up against freedom of choice. It is difficult and I may not understand it, but we all think differently, which is why we have such great diverse thoughts and debates. It is really important that we understand individuals’ concerns and we can address them, but we are not going to be able to persuade everyone.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister is an honourable man and tries his best. The letter that went out yesterday evening has literally caused confusion. People in care homes will be sending letters of resignation. Can he give a guarantee from that Dispatch Box that something is going to go out before midnight tonight, before notices go? It is really important.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for raising this issue and emphasising its importance. As soon as I leave this Chamber, I will go back to the department and ask what is being done and notify him. I thank him for raising it.

Covid-19: Antiviral Pills

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Monday 31st January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question and for making people aware of the PANORAMIC study. One of the things that we are trying to do is look at the communication programme. If we look at the antiviral taskforce, we are looking at a number of different communication channels. For example, tomorrow morning, I believe, I will be co-chairing a webinar with many black and minority ethnic groups and activists to see how we can roll out and get their support in rolling out to those communities. We are looking at a number of different channels and particularly working with a lot of the charities which specialise in things such as chronic kidney disease, liver disease—I have a long list of conditions, which I will not read out now.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

Priority test kits are meant to have been sent to people with immune conditions, so that they get the antivirals within five days of having Covid symptoms. Tens of thousands of people have not got these priority tests and, as Leukaemia Care has said, patients have been sent round in circles having to make up to 20 phone calls to get the test kits. Why has this mess arisen and what are the Government doing to solve it as a matter of urgency?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for making me aware of this. I was not aware of this. I was told test kits were available to anyone who was considered immunosuppressed or vulnerable in advance. Given what the noble Lord has said, it is important that I investigate and write to him.