Banking: National Savings & Investments

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Wednesday 5th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, NS&I takes index-linked and fixed-interest savings certificates on and off sale. When they were last on offer, during 2011, demand reached completely unprecedented levels. It meant that the sales volumes far exceeded what was anticipated and what represented value for money in terms of the target that the Treasury set for NS&I.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords—

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[Lord Peston]

My Lords, I nearly forgot my question. The Minister referred to looking askance at his answer. I must say that I associate myself with my noble friend. Is he not aware that a more positive response would have been to say, “Yes, it is an extremely good idea to improve the range of savings products out of fairness to small savers. It will raise the propensity to save and increase the flow of funds to the Treasury”. In the light of the most ludicrous Autumn Statement in living memory, I would have thought that the Treasury would like to have all the help that it can possibly get.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, there are 26 million savers with NS&I. We take their interests very seriously. They have over £100 billion invested. It is one of the largest savings organisations in the country, and that will continue.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Wednesday 28th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, it may be helpful to the House if I speak early in this debate. The amendment explores how the FCA will regulate the payday lending sector. The Government have been clear from the outset that the FCA should be able to take action to address the problems that are rife in the payday loans sector and, indeed, in the consumer credit sector more widely. That is why the Bill in its current form already empowers the FCA to make rules regarding the regulation of payday loans when credit regulation is transferred to the FCA in 2014.

I welcome the opportunity to debate this important issue. The Government are, like all of us, concerned about the appalling behaviour of some firms in this sector and the harm that vulnerable consumers suffer as a result. I shall say up front that, if the noble Lord agrees to withdraw this amendment, I will table a government amendment for debate at Third Reading that will address the issues raised by the noble Lord. The Government will go further, not only embedding stronger payday loan regulation in primary legislation but ironing out the potential weaknesses that they see in today’s amendment.

I cannot accept the noble Lord’s amendment as I think that the Government can, with the additional resources provided by officials and parliamentary counsel, improve on it in a number of ways. But, first, allow me to put on record three important points about the problems in the payday loans sector and how the Government will ensure that the FCA will be able to address these problems. Just last week, the OFT set out a wide range of concerns about detrimental practices in the payday loans sector, from firms failing to perform adequate checks that customers can afford a loan to a lack of forbearance when consumers are in financial difficulty. While restrictions imposed on the cost and duration of credit may address some of these problems, it is clear that regulation of the high-cost credit market as a whole needs to improve. Compared to the current regulatory regime under the OFT, the FCA will have a broader and more effective toolkit to monitor and tackle developments in the market and to supervise practice among firms. Its consumer protection objective provides the FCA with the mandate to use those powers and tools.

Secondly, capping the cost of credit and the number of times the loan can be rolled over is a major market intervention. It could bring huge benefits for consumers, as a recent study in Japan has indicated, but experience in Germany and France has shown that there can be equally momentous unintended consequences, including reduced access to credit for the poorest and most vulnerable consumers, even driving them to illegal loan sharks. These international lessons demonstrate that we need robust evidence to support any decision to introduce such a cap.

As noble Lords may be aware, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has commissioned research from Bristol University into the impact of a cap on the total cost of credit. This is one of the most comprehensive pieces of research undertaken into the UK high-cost credit market. I am pleased to confirm that the research will be published in the next few weeks and will enable the Government and, in future, the FCA to take an evidence-based approach to regulating the high-cost credit market and, in particular, to assess the pros and cons of a cap on the cost of credit.

However, we need to ensure that the FCA grasps the nettle when it comes to payday lending and has specific powers to impose a cap on the cost of credit and to ensure that the loan cannot be rolled over indefinitely should it decide, having considered the evidence, that this is the right solution. In this, I am entirely in agreement with the noble Lord. So, while I support the spirit of the amendment, I cannot accept it as it is framed as it may have unintended consequences and introduce loopholes which could be exploited by unscrupulous firms. For example, the amendment refers to the,

“maximum duration of a supply of a product or service”.

Firms might offer an ostensibly new product or agreement in order to circumvent the cap on the duration of the agreement. The amendment also focuses on the terms of the credit agreement and does not pick up charges imposed under connected agreements, which may often be significant. Again, this would open up a potential loophole for firms to exploit.

However, the Government believe that there is scope to go further than this amendment and to put in place stronger, automatic consumer protections and make the deterrent effect more robust by providing that a breach of these rules would make the agreement unenforceable by the lender. I will draft an amendment and discuss it with the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, to ensure that it fully meets his concerns, as I believe it will—I believe it will go further—and I can confirm explicitly that it will cover both the total cost and total duration of credit.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords—

[Lord Sassoon]

If the noble Lord will permit me, I will allow him to intervene in a moment, but let me conclude my argument.

Our objectives here are the same: they are to ensure that consumers of financial services have access to credit when they need it and at a price they can afford; and to ensure that the regulator is under a clear obligation, and fully empowered, to ensure that consumers are protected. I hope and expect, therefore, that when the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, sees the draft amendment he will feel able to add his name to what the Government propose.

[Lord Peston]

What the noble Lord said is extremely welcome and conciliatory to all of us. However, he left out one part: when will the rest of us get to see this draft amendment—I believe it is proposed that Third Reading should be next Wednesday—so that we, too, can scrutinise it to see whether it meets the requirement? One of the most compelling parts of the noble Lord’s argument was how difficult this area is—I thought it was all very simple—and he outlined a series of problems which he claims that he and his officials will solve. Has he actually solved them? Does the draft amendment exist and will we see it no later than, say, this Friday?

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Monday 26th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Peston]

That is totally—going back into the history of economic thought—to misunderstand the most fundamental contribution that Adam Smith made to economics, which is that it is the consumer who matters and not the firm. The noble Lord and several other noble Lords on that side have spent a large part of the debate on this Bill deciding that the firm was what mattered. The fact is that the consumer is what matters, and the consumer needs to know that there was a problem in principle even though it turns out that there was not a problem in fact. I think the noble Lord is also arguing that one is not allowed to speak twice because we are on Report—I thought he was shaking his head when I got to my feet again—but I had not yet finished. However, I am finished now.

[Lord Sassoon]

It did go through my mind to ask my noble friend Lord Newby to assure me that we were back on Report—because we went back into Committee mode for a bit last week—so I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Peston, for confirming that we are indeed on Report.

As I said in our previous discussion on professional standards, and as the noble Baroness knows full well, the Joint Committee of the two Houses is working away on this—indeed, I think it is sitting again this afternoon; I am looking around to see who is here and who is not in their place—and it will come forward with its suggestion as to what would be the appropriate body for professional standards.

Sadly, although professional standards are enormously important and they absolutely need to be raised in the industry, that does not mean that we do not need the construct that we are talking about in this clause. However, I can confirm to the noble Baroness that I expect that the default will be to publish and that there will be only limited circumstances, of which I have described one—although I cannot think of many others—in which it would wish not to publish. Indeed, other provisions in the Bill require the FSA to have regard to the desirability in more general terms of publishing as a back-stop.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Tuesday 20th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I was rather getting into the swing of this. I have never had so many questions in such a short time and I was waiting for more to come. Noble Lords know that I usually try to group my answers together in some coherent way, but the questions have come so thick and fast that I fear that in answering as many as I can the answers may not be grouped together quite as efficiently as I would like.

Let me start with the definitional issues around what we are trying to cover here. First, to the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, benchmark may be defined by Chambers Dictionary, on Google and in many other places, but it has never before been defined in FSMA and I think it is necessary to have a FSMA definition. I am sorry the noble Lord went to all these other sources and did not look at the very particular definition in the Bill, but that is where these amendments start. The noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, asked if the definition was wide enough and the noble Lord, Lord Peston, takes the view we should only be talking about LIBOR so the definition may be too wide.

[Lord Peston]

All I was saying was I thought that the Bill team, when we met them, told us that these amendments dealt with LIBOR, end of story. I am asking whether they deal with lots of other things. I am not saying it is wrong to do so, I am simply asking.

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[Lord Sassoon]

Again, to an extent the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, pre-empts what I was going to say. First, let me deal with this question about the international situation, which I believe I addressed in my opening remarks. We have identified a clear problem with a critical benchmark, LIBOR. We intend to fix it. Work is going on in the international arena to look at questions of benchmarks more generally. As and when there is a conclusion, that will then be factored in as to whether within this framework there is more to be done to regulate other benchmarks. Of course, if through applicable international rules there were some change to the framework required, which we do not anticipate, we could also change the framework through primary legislation.

In the mean time, having identified LIBOR, we will have a consultation. That will be an opportunity to people to give their views about what other benchmarks, if any, should be regulated. I do not see any contradiction in my remarks with my right honourable friend the Financial Secretary’s remarks at all. We will see what the international community comes up with as IOSCO and the FSB look at these matters.

The noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, is of course right that the definition here is one of the more difficult ones. I will have a look again to see whether anything of the sort that he suggests might be missed out is not covered. Although clear understanding is that the word “investment” as taken sometimes in a common- sense way does not necessarily fit with some of the examples that he gave, I will take it away and have a look at it again to make sure that it does cover everything.

On the series of petroleum-related examples that the noble Lord gave, I am not going to say whether the manipulation of the Californian electricity market would fit within the regulations because that is beyond the scope of what we are talking about, but let me talk about the gas market. I do not want to pre-empt the specifics of the gas market review, but I am quite clear that, between the provisions that we are putting in place in this Bill, and those to which I have already drawn attention and the powers of Ofgem, we will be covered.

Also in this definitional area, one or two questions were asked about GDP and RPI. In particular, the noble Lord, Lord Peston, asked about references to the GDP deflator. Since the GDP deflator is not set by reference to the state of a market but is wholly different, I do not see that coming within the scope of what we are looking at here. GDP is clearly a matter for the ONS; it is not derived from the markets in the sense that we are talking about here.

[Lord Peston]

The answer is that it is. It is a price index, and all price indexes are derived from markets because markets set prices. There is no question that it is not an index. I think that this is a matter of language and we hope that the Minister will clarify it for us. Will he also point to where in any amendment that he has put down the acronym LIBOR appears?

[Lord Sassoon]

The definition of “benchmark”, as we have already been through, has a number of legs to it, the first of which is that it is set by reference to the state of the market. Even if for the moment we park that one, we then come to the investment-related test, for which the GDP deflator would not apply. I know that in the example which the noble Lord gave it was part of something else, but the mere fact that it is part of something else does not mean that the GDP deflator is covered by the definition here.

On why LIBOR is not mentioned anywhere, which it is not, it is precisely because we are putting in place a framework. The secondary legislation, which will be preceded by a consultation coming very shortly, will be around what the first regulated benchmark should be. The Government will propose that it should be LIBOR and at this stage only LIBOR, but we will ask whether anything else should be covered. That is why LIBOR is not mentioned in the Bill; it will come in the secondary legislation.

[Lord Peston]

Am I right, therefore, that anybody looking at the Bill would not know that it had anything to do with LIBOR? I am pretty sure that I must be. They will know now, because the Minister has told us, but why does he not then put it in his amendments? What we are discussing is a badly drafted Bill that could be improved if it merely contained the sentence, “The object of all of this is to deal with the LIBOR problem”, and he could then deal with it via secondary legislation. No one would have known about any of that until we had this debate in your Lordships’ House—which is why we are here, I suppose.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the problem that we are trying to deal with is that it has been revealed this summer that benchmarks are open to the sorts of abuse that need to be dealt with. We are putting in place a framework that enables abuse or potential abuse of benchmarks to be dealt with. There was never any intention to put in LIBOR. I expended about 1,900 words explaining why we were doing this and I probably mentioned LIBOR a dozen times. I hope that the noble Lord is now clearer. I see that he is; I am grateful. That probably deals with the main definitional and scope questions.

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[Lord Peston]

I take it that the people who have already behaved in a criminal way can be prosecuted under the criminal law as it is. In other words, there is no need for retrospection because there is a criminal law sitting out there waiting. For all we know, it is already dealing with them.

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. As I have answered before in Questions on the LIBOR issue and as I said earlier, there are potentially other offences which may have been committed, and the prosecuting authorities and investigators are looking to see whether anybody could be charged under pre-existing law, so I am grateful for that clarification. The point is that it would be much more effective to have a targeted offence, which is what we are putting in place here.

Turning to Amendment 80A, under which the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, would like the FCA to have the ability to refer to codes published by the Financial Reporting Council, as well as the body responsible for setting the benchmark, I believe that Amendment 80 already allows the FCA to make such a reference since it would be able to make,

“reference to any code or other document published by the person responsible for the setting of the benchmark or any other person”.

As Amendment 80 stands, the FCA is able to refer to a code issued by the FRC or any other body.

Having said that, while from time to time the Financial Reporting Council publishes codes and documents relating to standards of corporate governance and so on, it is unlikely that they will be directly relevant to the setting of specific benchmarks. Of course, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hogg, is here, if she would like to correct me I am very happy to be corrected, but I think that is very unlikely. The intention of the provision in the Bill is to allow the FCA to make reference to detailed codes, allowing the detailed instruction of how, when and to whom information should be provided to a benchmark. I certainly do not anticipate that the FRC would publish codes relating to benchmarks in that detailed way. I therefore do not believe that the amendment extends or affects the powers of the FCA to make the rules in any material way, and I cannot accept it.

I spoke earlier of my gratitude—and this has been repeated by other noble Lords—to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town, for spotting the small drafting mistake, and confirm my intention to accept her proposed Amendment 80B. I encourage her to move it.

I now turn to Amendment 80C and the recommendation that the BBA transfer responsibility for administrating LIBOR to a successor body. I have already dealt in some detail with aspects of this, but let me go through it again. The nomination for that successor body will be determined through an open and transparent tender process that will be run by an independently chaired committee comprised of respected individuals from the financial services industry and the UK authorities. As I have already said, I am delighted that the noble Baroness, Lady Hogg, has agreed to chair that committee. The committee’s work is in its preliminary stages, but further information will of course be published in due course. I acknowledge the noble Lord’s concern that there is a risk that a suitable rate administration will not be willing or able to administer LIBOR; I firmly believe, however, that this risk is of very low probability. As I said, a considerable number of expressions of interest have already been received.

In the unlikely event that there is no appointable administrator, or in the event that we have already discussed that the administrator is appointed and then fails, the FCA will already have power to step in to administer LIBOR, should that be necessary. A disorderly collapse or the unavailability of LIBOR would have severe implications for institutions and financial markets across the globe, as the Wheatley review sets out in detail. It is under the objectives of the FCA, particularly its consumer protection and integrity objectives, that would give it sufficient basis to step in and administer the rate. The FCA therefore would not need any specific legislative power to administer LIBOR, and it is worth reminding ourselves that LIBOR is currently administered by the BBA without a statutory underpinning. We know that this is unsatisfactory, but I am just making the point that the setting of LIBOR itself has never required any statutory powers. I am quite clear that the FCA’s powers, as outlined elsewhere in the Bill, are sufficient for it to undertake such a course of action, although we anticipate that being very unlikely.

I do not wish to put a specific time limit on how long the FCA could maintain the administration of LIBOR, but neither the Government nor the FCA would want the FCA to administer LIBOR in the long term. We want the regulator to concentrate on regulating the market, not to fill a gap in the market on a permanent basis. I do not consider Amendment 80C is needed.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Monday 12th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, this is another group of amendments where we have not only debated the issues at length at previous stages but seen broad agreement across the House on the driving principle behind them. The notion behind the amendments is both clear and unarguable. Firms have and should have responsibilities to their customers. I agree that consumers have, all too often, suffered detriment at the hand of financial services firms because the regulator’s overly broad remit meant that such important matters were not given sufficient attention. The main answer to the challenge of the noble Lord, Lord Peston, is that it is for that very reason that we are creating a focused conduct of business regulator with a new suite of powers to tackle firms that do not take their considerable responsibilities in this area seriously.

[Lord Peston]

Is the Minister telling your Lordships that the FCA will have the power to intervene with specific firms? On the basis of what information, I wonder.

[Lord Sassoon]

Yes, I can confirm that. The information may come from a whole range of sources. Obviously, consumer complaints could be one source, but I know that the noble Lord postulated a circumstance in which there was no consumer complaint. It will clearly be going in regularly to review how a firm operates and conducts its business. That will be another source of information. I am sure that it will regularly compare products on offer, one against another, and if there are outlying products, that is another source of information. There is a whole range of sources of information. The key thing here is that we have in the FCA a regulator that does not have to be concerned, as the FSA does, with all the considerations of prudential regulation and supervision and can therefore take a much clearer approach. As we discussed, there are specific product intervention powers, which the FSA does not have.

The noble Lord helpfully raises the general background. We are putting the FCA in a much better position to tackle those issues proactively. Specifically, Amendment 25D would insert a factor that the FCA would have to consider when advancing its consumer protection objective. Namely, it would require the FCA to have regard to,

“the general principle that, where consumers properly repose trust in a firm’s discretion and are vulnerable to the exercise of that discretion, the firm has a duty to act in the consumer’s best interests”.

As I reflected in Committee, this is a cleverly worded amendment and the motivation behind it is noble, but I am still not convinced that it would result in firms acting in the way that the amendment is intended to ensure.

I am clear that the best way for the regulator to ensure that firms act in the best interests of their customers is through detailed, clear and unambiguous rules. Noble Lords have already highlighted the FSA’s “treating customers fairly” principle, under which it has carried out important work to protect consumers. With the renewed focus on consumer protection which I have just highlighted, the FCA will be empowered to go further. The precision attached to rules offers a much more effective shield for consumers than a broad duty, which will be near-impossible for the FCA—or, indeed, firms or consumers—to interpret, given the breadth of interests of different consumers at different times.

Moving to Amendment 26B, we return to the thorny question of fiduciary duty. Amendment 26B is drafted to reflect the recommendations of the Kay review in this area. The Government are in the process of responding formally to the recommendations of the review, and I hope that the House will concede that it would be inappropriate for me to pre-empt that response. I assure my noble friend Lord Stoneham of Droxford that we are taking the Kay review recommendations very seriously and that they will receive a substantive response.

I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town, that the regulatory framework that we are establishing will enable the FCA to consider to what extent current regulatory rules in this area support these standards, if they advance its objectives. However, I am concerned that there are aspects of this amendment which would not have the effect that we desire. In particular, the proposal that the regulator gives guidance as to what is the effect of common law, notwithstanding what we have heard, seems very dangerous to me. It risks absolving firms of the duty to consider their role and duty under common law and places the burden on the regulator to outline how the common law applies. Seeking to codify common law in guidance in this way also means that the scope for the common law to develop and adapt to reflect changing circumstances—which is, of course, one of the great virtues of the common law—may be impeded. As a general point of principle, this amendment is unnecessary, because the FCA is empowered to issue such guidance as it sees fit.

The last amendment in this group, Amendment 45A, is another that we have seen before. It would require the FCA and PRA to have regard to,

“the principle that authorised persons should act honestly, fairly and professionally in the best interests of consumers who are their clients”.

Of course firms should act in this way. The right way to ensure that is to empower the FCA, when firms do not act in that way, to act under its consumer protection objective, with strong mechanisms in place to ensure that it co-ordinates effectively with the PRA when it does.

I agree that we want financial services firms to act in a way that puts customers first. It is precisely for this reason that we are creating the FCA as a focused conduct and business regulator. I maintain that the regulatory framework that we are putting in place will lead to better outcomes for consumers, with a focused regulator empowered to act and armed with substantial new powers to ensure that it does. On this understanding, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Monday 12th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I always take a lot of notice of my noble friend Lord Blackwell. However, Amendments 25B and 31A raise a very important issue. The revelations during the summer about the attempts to manipulate LIBOR and Euribor demonstrated, if any demonstration were needed, that perhaps a considerable number of individuals in the banking sector have failed to live up to the most basic standards of professional conduct and that must, of course, be put right. We are tabling our amendments to this Bill to bring the setting of LIBOR within the scope of the regulatory regime and make it a criminal offence to attempt to manipulate benchmark rates, but that is only the first step.

The critical issue here, which I think has been rather forgotten in this debate, is that the Government acted very quickly to establish the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town, made a passing reference to it. The noble Lord, Lord Peston, suggested that I may fob the House off by saying I have another version—he would say an inferior version—of this in the Bill. I absolutely will not say this. I will say there is a superior answer to this very big problem coming from the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards. I entirely accept that there is a serious issue to be dealt with but the commission is established, it is doing its work and it will look at precisely what is needed to deal with the challenge.

[Lord Peston]

I must be a bit thick; I thought that the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards was not due to report until this Bill is passed into law. Where will its recommendations, assuming it makes any, then be passed into law?

[Lord Sassoon]

I will come on to that if the noble Lord, Lord Peston, will hear me out. Of course it is no good having a commission if its recommendations are not going to be taken seriously or enacted if necessary. We should remind ourselves of how this House is represented on the commission. It is quite striking that I do not see my noble friends Lady Kramer or Lord Lawson of Blaby in their places this afternoon, nor indeed the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham or the noble Lords, Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Turnbull. Why are they not here? I believe it is because the commission is at work today looking into these very critical questions. Experience and authority is being brought to bear on these issues in order to identify ways to put the highest standards of ethics and professionalism at the heart of the UK banking system and I believe that we should leave the commission to do its work.

I know, as do other noble Lords, that the commission will examine all possible solutions and of course the introduction of codes of conduct should be one of them. We have heard different views about the effectiveness of codes of conduct, but it is quite right for the commission to look at that. The commission has the membership and the tools it needs to do a very thorough job in this area and I do not think we should pre-empt it. It has the power to interview witnesses under oath and to send for the necessary people and papers. It has already heard evidence from, among others, Paul Volcker, the former chairman of the Federal Reserve, Martin Wheatley the chief executive designate of the FCA and from various members of the Independent Commission on Banking. The commission has already gathered an impressive range of written evidence from stakeholders, including the major banks, regulators and consumer groups, and that evidence was published last Thursday.

So, given that the commission’s work is ongoing, it is not the right time to make decisions on this very important matter. To do so would be to pre-empt and undermine the conclusions of the commission, which is investigating this issue so thoroughly.

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[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the Government kicked off a number of inquiries and reviews immediately we became aware of the LIBOR scandal. Martin Wheatley, the managing director of the FSA and the chief executive designate of the FCA, carried out one of the reviews which have led directly to the amendments in this Bill. We have acted on his amendments specifically addressing criminal offences and so on around LIBOR in this Bill. We also set up the commission to look at the wider question of professional standards and the way that banking operates and it will report by the end of the year. We will have a legislative vehicle in the new year, if required, to take up its recommendations, which the Government will take very seriously.

It is not that we are dragging our feet or want to stop these issues being addressed. It would just seem foolish to pre-empt a commission of great eminence which is doing enormously important work as we speak. I hope that, on that basis and the confirmation I have given about what is going on, the noble Baroness will be persuaded to withdraw her amendment. While the Government agree with the need to restore public trust in banking, we should not jump to legislate now but do so once the parliamentary commission has had time to do its work.

[Lord Peston]

I am still a bit lost. As I understand it, the Minister cannot at this point commit the Government to bringing in any specific Bill that they have not brought in yet. However, setting that on one side, the more important point is that all of my remarks, as he will be aware, were addressed to the whole of the financial services sector. Is it possible to have a banking Bill in which amendments will be put down referring to the code of conduct for the whole financial sector? In my view, we will be told that either the short or long Title will not let us do it. That is why I argue that this is the obvious vehicle for this, and nothing the noble Lord has said so far tells me that this is not the obvious vehicle.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, we have published the Bill in draft already, so it is already on the slipway in that sense. I am not equipped to get into questions about what precisely the scope could be in that Bill. I believe it is wide enough. If it is not, the Government will find other legislative vehicles in which to introduce this. However, I am reminded that although I loosely call it the banking reform Bill, it will actually be titled the Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill and therefore the scope will be plenty wide enough to bring in a code of conduct right across the piece. I hope that provides further reassurance to the House.

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[Lord Peston]

We can speak for clarification and to ask questions. We cannot make substantive points.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I spoke about the role of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards when discussing the previous group of amendments. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, doubts the seriousness with which the Government intend to take its recommendations. It is a joint commission of the two Houses—something that any Government would take extremely seriously. We acted to initiate the setting up of the commission so I am disappointed that the noble Lord seeks to tweak my tail on this one. When it comes to a legislative vehicle, I could not have made it plainer that we have already published a draft Bill. The Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill is on its way. That provides potentially a perfect legislative vehicle if there are things that come out of the commission, as no doubt there will be, that require legislation. The issues raised by Amendments 25C, 25E and 26C are firmly within the remit of the commission and it would be wholly inappropriate for us to jump the gun in a semi-considered way rather than waiting for the magisterial output of the commission in a short time.

Amendment 26D would add a new paragraph (f) to proposed new Section 1D(2) to be inserted in FiSMA 2000 under this Bill. It refers to,

“the fairness and integrity of policy and conduct of those directing or operating in the financial markets”.

That is on the same theme but seeks to place specific emphasis on issues of integrity and fairness by making changes to the FCA’s objectives. As we have heard from my noble friend Lord Phillips of Sudbury, Amendment 27A would specify that, in considering the effectiveness of competition, the FCA may have regard to the extent to which the,

“methods or culture of any competition may undermine the integrity objective”.

I sympathise with the amendment to the extent that it is clear that when the FCA considers taking action, it will need to consider all its objectives. Recent events have demonstrated how important it is that the regulator has a mandate to take action to protect and enhance the integrity of the UK financial system.

The Government have given the FCA the three operational objectives, as we have been reminded, of competition, consumer protection and integrity so that it determines the right balance between them in individual cases. The regulator cannot unduly prioritise any one objective and neglect to consider the others. My noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts has already given another construction, which perhaps is more balanced, of proposed new Section 1B(4) and I am grateful to him for that.

This is a complex interaction of provisions. In one case we are talking about a competition objective but also, in the context of proposed new Section 1B(4), a duty designed to ensure that the FCA considers competition as a means to, and in the context of, delivering other objectives. But that needs to happen only as far as it is compatible with the integrity and protection objectives. I believe that it is a keenly balanced series of interlocking provisions here, of which these are only two. Of course, there are further elaborations of just what the integrity objective and the other objectives involve. Further, it is important to “have regard to” under this new section. I believe that the balance is right and that there is no need to adjust the structure of the competition objective to require the FCA to consider integrity in the way proposed here.

Similarly, the FCA’s integrity objective will come into play when the FCA is exercising its general functions in relation to conduct. While it must think about whether competition is working in the interests of consumers, I do not believe that it is for the FCA to police the markets to establish and enforce what fairness is. I do not believe that fairness should form part of the explanation of the term “integrity”. It is a separate issue.

There are other issues about the interrelationship between the two new authorities. Proposed new Section 3D requires the PRA and FCA to co-ordinate their functions in areas of common regulatory interest where one may have relevant expertise or wherever one may have a material adverse impact on the objectives of the other. This means that, while it is right that the PRA must focus on its safety and soundness objective, where its actions may impact adversely on consumer protection it will have to listen to the FCA, which has a strong consumer protection objective.

In summary, I accept the wider point about the importance of these issues. As this short debate has teased out, these issues are very complicated. They are best addressed through the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards. In the light of that, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

Economy: Quantitative Easing

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Monday 12th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, we are putting together a British business bank in order to bring together the various schemes that SMEs and all companies have access to. I entirely agree with my noble friend that this is an ongoing and very serious issue. We will continue to use the strength of the Government’s balance sheet, which is due to the credible deficit reduction plan, to back up schemes such as the infrastructure guarantee scheme, which goes precisely to one part of the demand and need for long-term bank finance. We will, and have already, come forward with schemes, because I completely agree with my noble friend that this is a critical area.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, could the Minister just clarify his Answer a little? Is he saying that the economy is now on a continuous expansion path of a sustainable nature, and therefore that everybody else—all the experts who say that there are nothing but bad times ahead—is mistaken? Is that the Government’s view?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I merely stated that, on the last numbers from the ONS, the economy is growing again. If we bring this back to the subject of the Question—quantitative easing—the Bank of England’s analysis of 23 August is that economic growth would have been lower in the absence of the asset purchases and unemployment would have been higher.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Tuesday 6th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

Noble Lords may be aware that a similar amendment to Amendment 2A was tabled and debated in another place. Then, as now, and as I said in Committee, the Government do not believe that such a legislative provision is necessary or appropriate. Starting with the question of knowledge and experience, the Government have repeatedly confirmed their commitment, as I did in words quoted by the noble Lord, to ensuring the appointment of serious, knowledgeable and experienced candidates who have the appropriate qualifications and skills to carry out the functions of non-executive directors of court. These appointments are fully regulated by the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments, which ensures a fair, transparent and competitive process. The code is binding and the Treasury is responsible for ensuring its compliance, thereby ensuring that appointments to court are made openly, transparently and on the basis of merit.

Even without a prescriptive legislative obligation, in order to build an effective court the Treasury is mindful of the need to seek not only an appropriate depth but breadth of skills and experience. Ministers can and do take this into account in forming their recommendation without the need to further impose a duty on Her Majesty to form a view as to the candidate’s knowledge or experience before she makes the appointment.

I turn to the question of diversity, which I understand to mean not only of gender, geography or ethnic background but also of sectoral experience, insight and knowledge, as is suggested by Amendment 6A. Court and, in future, FPC appointments are advertised openly, and applications are welcomed from candidates from a variety of backgrounds. For example, the role profile for the most recent court vacancies sought people with substantial experience as board members, as head of function of major financial organisations and as senior managers in a relevant area of public policy, or in the voluntary sector or a trade union.

The latest iteration of the Government’s code of good practice for corporate governance in central government departments clearly states that,

“a board should have a balance of skills and experience appropriate to fulfilling its responsibilities. Moreover, it stipulates that the membership of the board should be balanced, diverse and manageable in size”.—[Official Report, Commons, Financial Services Bill Committee, 21/2/12; col. 22.]

However, given the size of the non-executive contingent on court and the number of external members of the FPC, it would simply not be possible to prescribe a set of criteria to ensure full diversity—that is, to ensure that each and every different background and characteristic is represented on the board and committee —without severely limiting the potential field of qualified applicants. It is therefore a question of judgment.

I stand by exactly what I said in Committee, which is that the Government are committed to ensuring an appropriate breadth as well as depth of skills; and this is as true of the FPC as it is of the court. While I agree entirely with the sentiments and principles behind these amendments, I do not believe that it is necessary or appropriate to legislate to achieve these aims.

I hope that I have provided sufficient reassurance to the noble Lord and that he will be able to withdraw his amendments.

[Lord Peston]

Could the Minister confirm that all these appointments will be advertised in appropriate places? I think that he said it but I am not sure that I caught what he said.

[Lord Sassoon]

That is what I said, and I am sure that it will be clear on the record when the noble Lord reads it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, Amendments 2B, 2C, 3L, 3M, 6B, 6G and 7F, among others—maybe that is the lot—appeared at the Treasury late yesterday and not all the amendments were discussed in the conversation to which the noble Lord refers. However, there are some important and some not so important matters in these amendments and I will do my best to do them justice.

As we have heard, this amendment relates to the role of Parliament in the appointment of the Governor of the Bank of England and has been the subject of much debate both here and in another place. Specifically, Amendment 2B seeks to secure a debate in another place following the appointment of the governor, something which I do not believe is necessary or appropriate. The Government are committed to maintaining an appointments process that is proportionate and attracts candidates of the highest quality. It is important to ensure the credibility of the candidate and safeguard his or her independence. If the appointment was subject to a debate in another place, I suggest that there is a significant risk of politicising the process and undermining the appointment of the new candidate. Of course, it has been argued that such a debate could enhance the credibility of the candidate but previous governors have achieved credibility without being subject to such a debate. Credibility ultimately stems from effective action to meet the Bank’s objectives. If the appointment were subject to a debate in another place, the candidate would not be present to answer questions or defend him or herself.

The noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, has already quoted me in the previous debate. I quote what he had to say on this matter in Committee on 26 June. He said:

“We do not want to politicise appointments to the extent that has occurred in the United States”.

The suggestion that appointments might end up being considered by the whole House made him “nervous” as it would,

“inevitably be whipped and become very political indeed”.—[Official Report, 26/6/12; col. 165.]

I very much agree with that. Therefore, the Government believe that the pre-commencement hearing held by the Treasury Committee strikes the right balance in terms of scrutiny of this executive appointment and allows for a more constructive debate with the candidate in attendance to satisfy the committee’s concerns about his or her personal integrity and professional competence. The Government welcome the Treasury Committee’s ongoing role in holding such hearings and, importantly, as my noble friend Lord Flight reminded us, holding the governor to account throughout his or her tenure. I hope I have provided sufficient reassurance and that the noble Lord feels able to withdraw this amendment.

[Lord Peston]

I wish to make a comment and ask the Minister a question. My comment is that there are no long words in this amendment. I would have thought that the average person who had been at school could just about understand it in a few minutes of reading it. The idea that the Minister cannot address your Lordships’ House without several days, if not weeks, of Treasury back-up seems to me absolutely preposterous. He should stop bellyaching about this sort of thing.

My question to him is: if this debate took place in both your Lordships’ House and the other place, has it not occurred to him that that debate might be devoted mainly to saying what an excellent appointment has been made in this case, what an extremely good person has been chosen and wishing him well in his very arduous task? Why is the Minister taking it for granted that the debate would be mostly about slagging off whoever the appointed person may be?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, I support this amendment in substance. The noble Lord will be delighted to hear that I also wish to make a couple of semantic points. My noble friend said that the committee should have its own staff. My view is that it should not only have its own staff but should appoint its own staff, thereby guaranteeing that the staff are its own, work for it and, to use the slang expression, are not “narks” of the governor. Therefore, the noble Lord ought to accept the amendment.

My two semantic points are as follows. First, I find the committee’s name most unattractive. Will the noble Lord ask the Bill team to look up the definition of “oversight” in the dictionary as it has a very definite meaning which I am sure the Government and the Minister do not wish to be associated with this committee. It may not be too late to choose a more felicitous name. I wonder whether I am the only person who has thought what a ridiculous name the committee has.

Secondly, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Eatwell on solving the problem with which, as your Lordships know, the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, and I are obsessed: that is, the “must/may problem”. My noble friend has solved it in a really interesting way. He does not use “must” or “may” but “will”. I would like the Minister to ask the Bill team whether it would consider going down the path of using “will” rather than “must” or “may”.

[Lord Sassoon]

If the noble Lord, Lord Peston, could persuade his noble friend to rein back to just a couple of amendments a day, I am sure that we could carve out time to look at all sorts of semantics. However, I shall stick to the substance of this amendment, which seeks to place the bank under a statutory duty to ensure that the oversight committee has,

“adequate economic, legal and research support”.

I entirely agree with the sentiment behind this amendment. As we have already discussed this afternoon, the non-executive oversight committee has a very important job to do in reviewing the Bank’s performance and will require access to the information and analytical support that it needs. That is why, for example, the legislation makes it clear that members of the oversight committee have access to the meetings and papers of the MPC and FPC and have a specific remit to commission work and reviews from external bodies and experts.

It is a well established principle that it is the responsibility of the governing body of any organisation to ensure that its members and sub-committees are properly supported. I recognise that the Bank was slow to realise that the external members of the MPC required dedicated resource and support. I am confident that the Bank has learnt its lessons on this. Both the MPC and the FPC members have access to all the analytical and secretariat support that they need. I am wholly confident that the Bank will similarly make support available to the oversight committee to make sure that it is adequately supported without the need for legislation on this point. I hope, therefore, with the further reassurance on that, the noble Lord will see fit to withdraw his amendment.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Wednesday 24th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

I believe that that is the case. If it is not, I will clarify things as I reply to my noble friend Lady Noakes.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, I did not catch the last few words that the Minister said before the noble Baroness asked her question. I thought he said that if the Bill is enacted, this part would enable the Treasury to set up inquiries into what happened in the past few years. Did he actually say that?

[Lord Sassoon]

In so many terms, yes. In reply to my noble friend’s question about the repeal of Section 14 of FiSMA, I wanted to make it clear that a gap is not left in the Treasury’s ability to arrange inquiries into events, even though they might be ones that predate the coming into force of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Peston]

The provision would then become much more significant. If we pass this Bill into law and it becomes an Act then the disasters of the past few years could be inquired into by a major independent committee, which might tell us who were the real architects of the disaster and where policy failed. If the Bill is to enable that to happen—and it seems to me overwhelmingly that it must happen—then we really do need the word “must” in this case.

[Lord Sassoon]

I will get there eventually. If the Committee will permit me, I will address the point. I will not necessarily give complete satisfaction but we will get there.

The Bill makes a number of provisions that are intended to deliver greater accountability and carries forward the power of the Treasury to arrange independent inquiries into regulatory failures. It also provides for new duties on the two authorities to carry out investigations of their own—if necessary, at the instigation of the Treasury—and report their findings to the Treasury where there has been regulatory failure and certain other criteria are met.

I turn first to Amendments 190B and 192ZA, which probe why, if the public interest test is met, the Bill provides that the Treasury “may” require an inquiry. By changing “may” to “must”, their intended effect—as we have heard—is that in all cases where the test is met, the Treasury should have to require an inquiry. Amendment 190AA achieves the same end by a different means, specifying that the Treasury must arrange an inquiry where the two conditions in Clause 64 are met unless there is a public interest in not doing so. I agree with my noble friend that, if there is an overwhelming public interest in having an independent inquiry or in the regulator carrying out an investigation, the Treasury should step in to ensure that that happens. As it stands, the Bill gives the Treasury a little bit of discretion here. This is not about wriggling out of the need to call for an inquiry; it simply acknowledges that in reality, circumstances may dictate that even though the test is met, an inquiry or an investigation under this Bill is not necessarily the best course of action.

For example, there may already be an alternative independent inquiry going on—perhaps a parliamentary commission or other parliamentary inquiry—or an inquiry under the Inquiries Act. In the case of the provisions relating to investigations carried on by the regulator, the regulator itself may already be carrying on an investigation under Clauses 69 or 70. However, as my noble friend is aware, and as the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, has reminded us, I have already confirmed that I am giving careful thought to the wider use of “may” and “must” throughout the Bill. This is a huge exercise, taking up some mighty brains. All I would say at this stage is that although there are certainly not many cases that deserve intense scrutiny, this is certainly one of the instances that merit serious consideration. I will leave it at that. We will come back if we find any suitable candidates for changing.

Amendment 193 to Clause 79 seeks to place an explicit duty on the regulators to ensure that when a complaint against a regulator needs to be investigated, they appoint an investigator who is suitably qualified and experienced. This amendment is not necessary; it has also not been spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord McFall of Alcluith, so I will leave it at that. I shall turn to Amendments 192ZZA, 192ZZB and 192C.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sassoon]

No, my Lords. I have already answered these questions. I know of no crisis. However, we would be remiss if, having identified a sensible, consulted-on extension of the regime that came in under the Banking Act 2009 to cover these other, systemically important parts of the system, we did not act. If we left even a few months, having identified what needed to be done, we would be open to very heavy criticism as a House and as a Government. Now is not the time to discuss the ins and outs of the banking reform that is proposed. However, it is certainly not the case that—as the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, put it—investment firms and banks will be in separate groups. They will not be.

As I say, if the detail of the resolution arrangements changes, then of course these clauses can be amended to take account of the new structure. We have future-proofed them as far as we can, in the sense that my noble friend, quite rightly, talks about the European approach. As I said last week but will say again, of course we are going to remain fully consistent with the European approach to these matters and indeed we are actively taking part in shaping it. The fact that we have a worked-out solution ahead of others in Europe itself puts us in a very good position to influence things, and the legislation—the proposals that we are introducing and considering today—is consistent with what is set out in the Financial Stability Board’s document on key attributes for an effective resolution regime. We have taken every possible step to ensure consistency with Europe.

[Lord Peston]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister but I want to ensure that noble Lords understand what he is saying. He is saying that the Treasury has discovered two problems that can be dealt with rapidly by mending the Banking Act 2009 and he is therefore using this Bill, which is not specifically about banking, as a convenient vehicle to put those into law. That is the result of the Treasury's work; it has found those two things and feels that it ought to act rapidly. I also therefore infer, validly, that the Treasury has not found any other changes that need to be made rapidly and could well have been dumped in this Bill as well—just these. That is my interpretation—that they have found these two and we must get a move on. Am I right?

[Lord Sassoon]

First, my Lords, these clauses fall properly in the Bill because essentially we are giving powers to the Bank of England to resolve things. I would not like to leave the thought that we were somehow using the Bill as a Christmas tree to add on other unrelated things; this is definitely related to the purpose of the Bill because we are talking about the powers of the authorities.

Secondly, the noble Lord, Lord Peston, could be mistaken for giving the impression that somehow we just discovered these things last week or last month. As I have already said, very important new powers were put in place in the Banking Act 2009. Over a period it was then, partly after seeing the collapse of other investment firms and partly by talking to the market, a consultation process, so this is not something that has just emerged. In this area, we have nothing else up the Treasury’s sleeve, as it were. If anyone identifies any other gaps in the regime, of course we will consult on them and do all the proper things that Parliament would expect us to do.

That leaves one area that my noble friend Lord Flight asked about: the doctrine of “lender of last resort”. Fascinating and important though it is, I am reluctant to get into this area because it does not directly impact on where the lender of last resort doctrine, as he puts it, has now got to. It was the Banking Act 2009 that made sure that the authorities, including the Bank, had the full suite of powers. The Bill further improves those tools and clarifies responsibilities, but of course it does not alter the basic premise that the Bank will continue to be the lender of last resort to the banking sector and to the resolution authority for a variety of firms. As for the precise doctrine of how they operate, that is a matter for the Bank of England and should remain so. I recognise that that is clearly called into question by the events in 2007 and 2008, but I assure my noble friend that it is not affected by the substance of the clauses that we are discussing today.

Financial Regulators: Examinations

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Monday 22nd October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I certainly do not agree with my noble friend’s conclusion on this. As he well knows, one of the conclusions of the retail distribution review was that the role of financial adviser should be properly professionalised. I have seen comparisons being made between the professionalisation of financial advisers and of lawyers and accountants. Although these are matters of judgment for the FSA, the authority deems it appropriate that exams should play a part in this. I understand from the FSA that the final rules setting out the new qualification requirements were made in January 2011, two years before the requirements are to come in. On top of that, an indicative list of level 4 qualifications has been available since the end of 2009. The FSA’s research shows that, up to the spring of 2012, 71% of advisers had already qualified, and the expectation is that 93% are on track to secure the appropriate qualification in time. The final point I would make to my noble friend—again, I am sure that he is aware of it—is that, as well as taking examinations, financial advisers also have the option of an alternative assessment procedure.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, having spent a great many hours with the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Flight, and others on the Financial Services Bill, perhaps I may ask the Minister whether he will remind the House of the enormous power being given to the financial regulators. I have been looking into it. It may be that never in the history of our country has anyone had the regulatory power that these people have. It is a power either to do good, of course, or to get a lot of things wrong, to the benefit of our chief competitors in Frankfurt and Wall Street. Surely the Government must take a much more positive view of what sort of people are working for financial regulators and themselves take some responsibility to see that they are people with a broad range of experience who do not wish to see our financial services sector destroyed?

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Wednesday 17th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, is getting ahead of me. That was precisely what I was going on to explain. He is absolutely right that the power has never been used. Even at the height of the recent financial crisis, the then Chancellor felt unable to use this power to direct the Bank. Indeed, Alistair Darling’s book is rather interesting on this point. He explains in it that he was told,

“that it might be legally possible”,

to direct the Bank, but that,

“there would be wider implications of such an action. We had set great store by making the Bank independent and a public row between myself and Mervyn would have been disastrous, particularly at this time”.

The 1946 Act direction power is considered, and was considered by a Chancellor very recently, to be such a nuclear option because it is so broad that it would be very difficult to use. This means that any use of the power would likely be interpreted as the Chancellor overruling decisions and judgments that should rightly be for the Bank. This would be seen as a direct challenge to the Bank’s independence and a judgment on the competence of the Bank’s senior executives, which could cause a crisis in leadership in the Bank and a serious loss of public confidence. That line of thinking has prevented Chancellors from using the 1946 Act power in the past, as the fallout could be more damaging than the situation that they might be trying directly to address.

That risk was recognised by the Treasury Committee. That is why their report recommended that,

“the Chancellor should be granted a power to direct the Bank in a crisis which is free of the problems associated with the power under the 1946 Act”.

That is why the new power of direction in Clause 57 is designed to be a targeted and usable power. There will still be the power in the 1946 Act, for the reasons that underlie what my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, said. It is probably worth maintaining that reserve power somewhere in the system, albeit with the caveat that it is difficult to see the situation in which it might be exercised.

On the other hand, and going to the heart of who is in charge and who is responsible for what is in the new system, it was muddled and confused under the tripartite system but we want to make it much clearer in the new system that the Chancellor and the Treasury are principally there as guardians of public funds. That is why the specific direction in Clause 57 is designed that way. It is targeted. It does not allow the Treasury to overrule the Bank’s decisions and judgments; it allows the Treasury to take the decisions that are rightly for the Government to take. It is designed to allow the Chancellor to intervene to require the Bank to take specific action in a crisis management situation where public funds are at risk. That is why the power covers only the Bank’s crisis management functions, specifically the provision of liquidity and the operation of the special resolution regime. Again, I hope that that helps the noble Lord, Lord Peston, with the intended scope of this.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, the noble Lord has clarified that very well. I take it that there would still be, as happens all the time, informal meetings between the Chancellor and the Governor, where the Chancellor might say, “Well, it is your decision but I am a bit worried about this or that”. Nothing will infringe on that because, as the noble Lord well knows, no system can work without informal and off the record meetings and things of that sort. This will not get in the way of what one might call ordinary human behaviour.

[Lord Sassoon]

No, indeed. The next time, in another context, the noble Lord challenges me about why we are not disclosing more meetings, I shall remember what he just said about informal and confidential meetings. It is important that they happen. Having seen how things happened before and how they happen now, it is striking to see the much greater regularity of meetings between the principals—they are critical—than happened at some periods in the past. That is very important as a background in peacetime as well as in crisis time.

I hope that is clear. The Bank is in charge of operating the resolution regime, but the Chancellor must agree to any use of public funds and has the final say when they are used. Even setting aside the unintended drafting of Amendment 190ZE to include a power that would be even more widely drawn than the 1946 Act, the targeted power that we have drawn is the appropriate one. If we had drawn the power more widely to allow for future proofing, as my noble friend puts it, I would be standing here defending why we had left such an important area open in the Bill. It is better to draft such a power related to the system as we know it. It is broadly future proofed in the sense that there is a clear distinction between the use of public funds and other matters, and after that helpful debate I hope that my noble friend will withdraw her amendment.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, although I believe that we are allowed to use portable electronic devices in the Chamber, I cannot in 30 seconds find it. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, that it is done on either a quarterly or six-monthly basis. I do not know whether the search was made on the OBR website or the Treasury website, but my recollection is that the OBR releases something on its website periodically. I will find the appropriate link and let the noble Lords have it.

[Lord Peston]

I understood him to say the other day that it was on the Treasury website and I wasted three-quarters of an hour this morning. There is lots of good stuff on it. You can spend a happy day searching the Treasury website, but it did not contain anything that the Minister had told us it did contain. We can leave it at that.

[Lord Sassoon]

I apologise if I directed people to the wrong website. I will find the right one, which I think might be the OBR’s own website.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

I think that some of what the Minister has just said is quite a shift from what Clause 54 says. I would be delighted if he came forward on Report with some amendments that contained a duty to look at scenarios and a duty to bring forward a notification at the point of a possibility. There has been considerable debate in another place and in various committees, as to what “a material risk” means. There is a commitment in Clause 61 that it must be in the MoU, but as I search the MoU I cannot find it coming readily out to me—I shall be asking about that later. I invite the Minister to consider what he has said and see whether he can improve the legislation so that there will be no ambiguity about the test that the Bank has to apply in bringing forward a notification.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, perhaps I can help the Minister—it is not a question of persuading him to say yes or no at the moment. Looking at Clause 54, I take “material risk” to mean a significant probability; “possible” is much less than that. I think that my noble friend suggests in his amendment that Clause 54 would be strengthened if we went down the “possible” line, the technical point being—and I do not press it—that there is deep philosophical argument, particularly within probability theory, about the difference between possible and probable.

I interpret the amendment to mean that if the relevant body—whether the Bank of England or another regulator—is looking at a specific part of the financial services sector, or even a specific firm within it, it should let the Government know that it is doing so and that one definitely possible outcome is a need for the use of public funds. The amendment, as I understand it, is simply an attempt to be helpful to HMG when it comes to the control of public money. The Minister may say, “We do not want to know about possibles; we only want to know when the real demand for the money is coming”. That may be his argument, but that is the difference—am I not right?—as to what we are talking about here.

[Lord Sassoon]

Perhaps I did not make sufficiently clear the rather obvious point that we need to look at the heading of Clause 54, “Duty of Bank to notify Treasury of possible need for public funds”. At the risk of stating the obvious—it seems that we need to come back to the obvious—this whole duty is about the notification of a possible need for public funds. If we wanted to say “probable need for public funds”, the Bill would say “probable” in the clause heading, but it does not, it says “possible”. I advise the noble Lord that we are looking at the heading of Clause 54 in part 4 on page 134 of the Bill.

[Lord Peston]

Forgive me. I am willing to accept that I am wrong. I agree that the top line says “possible” but “material risk” is what goes into the material section of the Bill. That seems to me to undermine the clause heading. That seems to me the real point. Why have the Government put in “material risk” if they meant possible risk?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, there are some points where, frankly, I have to take the advice of the legal experts here, which I have done. Frequently Bills, this one included, contain constructions which follow some sort of drafting formula and are sometimes difficult to understand. As I say, my starting point is that if I really thought that the Treasury was not going to get the sort of early warning which the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and the Treasury Committee rightly ask for, I would propose a government amendment. I take the point that “possible” appears in a heading and not in Clause 54(1) but it is very clear from the heading that we are talking about the material risk in the context of the possible need for public funds. I assure the Committee that all the advice that I have been given is to the effect that this will achieve the purpose that the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, desires. Finally, I draw the noble Lord’s attention to paragraph 13 of the draft MoU to find the interaction between the MoU and these issues. On the basis of those explanations, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Monday 15th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, will the Minister clarify one or two aspects of what he said? Am I right in thinking that the amendments, in so far as one can follow them at all, are relevant when something has already gone wrong; that is, when the institution in question is in trouble and something has to be done to cope with that?

[Lord Sassoon]

Yes, the noble Lord is right in that.

[Lord Peston]

Am I then also right that other aspects of the Bill are really to stop the problem arising in the first place? Would that be a valid interpretation of the whole legislation?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, at the risk of oversimplifying matters, yes, indeed. We want a judgment-based system of regulation and supervision that makes it less likely that things will go wrong in the first place. That is entirely correct.

[Lord Peston]

The Minister must be aware by now that there is no way that he can oversimplify when he is dealing with me. Has a study been done of the costs and benefits of the effects of the amendments? In particular, if a crisis appears that is connected with insolvency et cetera, will costs be involved and who will bear them? I cannot find an answer to that anywhere in the amendments. Is it a responsibility of whoever is administering all this? Further, am I right in thinking that clearing houses will not be saved but essentially go out of business?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I can confirm that, as with just about everything that this Government and the previous Government have brought forward, an impact assessment of the measures was done as part of the consultation process. The noble Lord took us back to first principles. What we are trying to achieve in the broad sweep of the construct is for the costs to fall on the industry. The shareholders would be likely to be the first to be wiped out if an investment exchange or clearing house went out of business. That is where the costs would fall. At all times, our principal concern is to make sure that taxpayers are not exposed to material costs such as they were, very severely, in the financial crisis of 2007-08. I hope that that helps the noble Lord.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sassoon]

First, my Lords, there is no question in this of anything being transferred to or from the EU. This is just a regime around the winding-up administration for the insolvency of UK clearing houses, so I assure the noble Lord that that issue does not arise. It was his Government—the previous Labour Government—who identified this general area as one that needed to be dealt with, particularly in the context of deposit takers, where the need was identified to put additional provisions in place for resolution regimes. We built on the work initiated by the previous Government and have identified other systemically important parts of the system.

We are talking about clearing houses and recognised investment exchanges this afternoon, and we will go on in a future session to talk about investment banks. We are merely saying that we have identified other areas where the authorities need to have powers similar to the ones that came out of the legislation initiated by the previous Government, and are putting that in place.

As to the cumulative amount of responsibility that we are giving to the Bank of England, we have already in the course of the very useful scrutiny of this Bill made some important changes, including putting the oversight committee in place to respond to the sort of challenge that the ever-nimble-on-his-feet noble Lord, Lord Barnett, raises. I therefore think that we have covered that issue up front in this Bill and that the Government have made some big concessions.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, I will not pursue the question of more powers to the Bank of England. After its performance over the last few years, it is the last thing I would do, and I do not think this is the occasion to debate that yet again. However, I am puzzled by two things. I thought that in his reply to the noble Lord, Lord Flight, he said we should not be discussing the European angle and that that would come at some other stage. Is that right? I do not think I misheard him.

[Lord Sassoon]

No, I said in my reply to my noble friend this afternoon that I would concentrate purely on the European angle of these amendments, which I dealt with. I was not going to be drawn into discussing a whole range of other European matters which my noble friend’s remarks address. It is as simple as that.

[Lord Peston]

I take it that we are not discussing—because if we were, I would make a speech—the fact that we believe strongly in a single market for financial services but that many of the European countries go to enormous lengths to prevent our highly efficient financial services firms getting into their markets. I would not mind having a debate on that some time during proceedings on this Bill. However, I gather that in the Minister’s view this is not the moment.

[Baroness Cohen of Pimlico]

Might I ask the Minister for a little guidance? If we are discussing all these amendments together, I have a set of problems that I would like to discuss on Amendment 176D. Is this the moment or are we going to do all the amendments separately?

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176D: After Clause 28, insert the following new Clause—
“Additional power to direct UK clearing houses
After section 296 of FSMA 2000 insert—“296A Additional power to direct UK clearing houses
(1) The Bank of England may direct a UK clearing house to take, or refrain from taking, specified action if the Bank is satisfied that it is desirable to give the direction, having regard to the public interest in—
(a) protecting and enhancing the stability of the UK financial system,(b) maintaining public confidence in the stability of the UK financial system,(c) maintaining the continuity of the central counterparty clearing services provided by the clearing house, and(d) maintaining and enhancing the financial resilience of the clearing house. (2) The direction may, in particular—
(a) specify the time for compliance with the direction,(b) require the rules of the clearing house to be amended, and(c) override such rules (whether generally or in their application to a particular case).(3) The direction is enforceable, on the application of the Bank, by an injunction or, in Scotland, by an order for specific performance under section 45 of the Court of Session Act 1988.
(4) The Bank may revoke a direction given under this section.
(5) In this section “central counterparty clearing services” has the same meaning as in section 155 of the Companies Act 1989 (see subsection (3A) of that section).”

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, before the Minister moves this amendment, can I ask him one other thing that intrigues me? On the bit of paper that we get every day when we meet on this, it says:

“Target for the day: to complete the group beginning amendment 190ZZA”.

Are we to take that seriously? At the rate we are going, we will be going for a very early supper.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, as ever, these things are discussed and agreed through the usual channels. I certainly take my side of the usual channels extremely seriously. The noble Lord can discuss it with his side, but I believe that is where we are headed. I thought we might have got through the previous group of amendments rather more quickly, so I do not know what time we will finish, but in only a moment I have been able to move on to Amendment 176D.

Amendments 176D and 182ZA build on the existing powers of direction that the Financial Services Authority has under the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000, or FiSMA. This group of amendments gives the Bank of England additional powers to direct UK clearing houses to address risks to their solvency, or indeed any other matter. Specifically, the direction could require a clearing house to make changes to its rules or introduce emergency rules, or require rules to be activated. The existing powers of direction provided for in FiSMA can be used only to direct a clearing house to ensure that it complies with the recognition requirements or its obligations under FiSMA. Here, in answer to a point that the noble Lord, Lord Peston, raised, we are talking about powers that go with the previous group of amendments, which were all to do with clearing up a mess when we got there. We are now talking about additional powers to make sure, specifically, that we minimise the chances of getting into trouble.

Providing the Bank with additional powers of direction over UK clearing houses is essential to allow the Bank to manage the considerable risks that may be posed by actions of a clearing house that is nevertheless not in breach of its recognition requirements or obligations under FiSMA. Put simply, the powers will enable the Bank to intervene as required to help to ensure that clearing houses act in a way that is consistent with the maintenance of financial stability and wider market confidence. For example, these provisions allow the Bank to issue a direction requiring a UK clearing house to refuse to accept certain investments as collateral, or to require all collateral in relation to specified types of financial transaction to be provided in cash. They also allow the Bank to require a UK clearing house to alter the rules concerning its operation in order to ensure that certain matters do not constitute events on which specified rights become available—for example, early termination rights—or to require a UK clearing house to take action or to refrain from taking action under its default rules.

Although these powers are wide-ranging, building in essential flexibility to manage new and unusual risks, they may be exercised only where the Bank is satisfied that it is desirable to do so, having regard to various clearly defined public interest tests. With one exception, the Bank of England cannot use this power to require shareholders, members or clients to recapitalise or otherwise fund a failing recognised clearing house. The power of direction relates only to the recognised clearing house itself. The exception is where the UK clearing house already has recapitalisation arrangements and agreements in place with its shareholders. In this instance, the Bank of England could use this power to direct the UK clearing house to enforce those arrangements, provided that the necessary conditions and safeguards are met. This is to ensure that the clearing house acts in a way that is consistent with the maintenance of financial stability and wider market confidence. I beg to move.

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[Lord Peston]

My Lords, I hate to abandon a “may” and “must” debate, because it is my favourite activity. However, in this case, since we are discussing additional powers, I hate to say it but I think that “may” is simply the word that corresponds grammatically to giving the additional powers. Given the circumstances in which the amendment lists when those powers can be used, it is perfectly obvious that “must” is then implicit. Why else would these criteria be taken into account? I do not want the Minister to stop annoying the parliamentary draftsmen but perhaps for once they have got it right.

[Lord Sassoon]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord, as I am sure the officials will be.

Amendment 176D agreed.

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[Lord Peston]

I admonish the Minister in a trifling way. It seems to me that the issuing of warning notices is enormously beneficial to those being regulated. That is one bit of a Bill that I do not like which I am totally in favour of. I am surprised that the Minister would even consider any backtracking on that. It is immensely beneficial to people to be told, “We are concerned about what you are doing and would like you to modify your behaviour so that it does not create a loss to the public interest”. That is one of the really good bits of the Bill.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, let me stress again that we are not backtracking at all. Our commitment to the new policy instrument remains extremely firm. It may be that the industry will come to take the view expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Peston. We will see. I have been struck by not only our debate this afternoon but our conversations in the run-up to it that because we are taking such a bold step, which I believe to be the right one and which I believe that the FCA will exercise properly, we should have the reserve power, which we do not have in the Bill, should things not turn out as I and the noble Lord, Lord Peston, expect.

I hope, on the basis of that explanation of our intention, that my noble friend will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

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[Lord Sassoon]

With all due respect to the noble Lord, this slightly misses the point. As I have explained, within much the same remit under FiSMA, to which we have added one additional piece of protection, the FSA exercises the judgment and comes up with the structure that this Committee seems broadly happy with. It is entirely fair and proper to allow the successor body the space to come up with a decision which finds approval in decisions that were previously taken about this structure. Therefore, based on our approval of how it has done up to now, we should have confidence that it will do it again. It has heard loudly and clearly the support that your Lordships will give it if it takes that approach.

[Lord Peston]

I am really lost as to what the Minister is saying. Apart from the fact that he was made a very good offer—I would have thought that the Minister, in his right mind, would never reject a good offer—is he saying that this amendment is not needed because the regulators could set up committees of this sort themselves with no statutory powers behind them and that they can do exactly what is in this amendment already? Can he guarantee that it is right that each regulator can set up a committee so the only difference is that we are saying that they must and he is saying that they can? For the record, is that what he is saying?

[Lord Sassoon]

I am sorry that I have not been sufficiently clear. Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. In fact, I am saying more than that. Within the very similar provision for FiSMA, that is exactly what the FSA did. Not only can it do it but it has a track record of having done that. I think we should trust it to do whatever is appropriate again.

Economy: Deficit Reduction

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Monday 15th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I certainly agree with my noble friend that the question of funding, particularly for SMEs, continues to be of considerable concern to the Government. That is why we have been able to use the strength of the national government balance sheet which derives from our deficit reduction plans to put in place the funding for lending scheme, to which my noble friend referred, and the UK guarantee scheme of up to £50 billion for infrastructure projects so that we can ensure that credit continues to flow.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, I take it that the noble Lord’s answer implies that the Government intend to pursue continuously their ludicrous economic policy, the effect of which is that the Government engage in cuts, those cuts lower aggregate demand, the tax revenue goes down and some benefits go up so that the budget deficit increases, whereupon they engage in more cuts, and this process goes on until the economy implodes. That is the danger before us. What is required is a change in economic policy that leads to some expansion of the real economy.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Peston, and his noble friend Lord Barnett have been comparing notes, but the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, was quoting the IMF approvingly at me only a minute or two ago. On this point, only a week ago, on 9 October, a senior official of the IMF said that at this stage:

“The policy mix in the UK, which consists of adjusting fiscal policy, reducing deficits, at the same time supporting the economy with a very accommodative monetary policy is the right way to go”.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Monday 8th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Peston]

Perhaps I may interrupt the Minister. As I listened to my noble friend, it suddenly dawned on me what we were talking about. It really does mean crowd funding and, following what my noble friend said, there is a very simple answer to it: do not do it.

[Lord Sassoon]

That is one way of dealing with it, but it is not the way in which the Government wish to deal with it, which I shall explain in a moment. I say to my noble friend Lord Stewartby that I have a hunch that before we pass this clause we will have a discussion about timetabling. If he will forgive me, I shall come back to the matter then, but if we do not I will make sure that I raise the timetable in question later.

Crowd funding is an innovative new source of funding for start-ups and other small enterprises. I share my noble friend’s hope that it will continue to grow in the coming years, so my answer to his first question is a resounding yes. However, on his second question, which is the subject of the amendment, while I understand my noble friend’s enthusiasm for establishing discrete legislative provision to bring this very new sector into regulation, I do not agree that it is needed at this stage and so cannot accept the amendment.

My noble friend raised the US JOBS Act. In the US, there was a very distinct problem and a pressing need, which led to the introduction of that Act. The situation is different in the UK. Among other things, there has been no clarion call from industry for more regulation. However, we should not be complacent, and the FSA is not waiting until there is a problem before doing things.

Platforms seeking to operate what are in effect collective investment schemes must obtain authorisation from the FSA. The FSA already has powers to take action against firms operating without appropriate authorisation. It is up to the FSA to work with platforms seeking to offer equity returns to their investors to ensure that they obtain relevant permissions before the activity that is most likely to apply here—arranging deals in investments—starts. This is happening already, with one such platform securing authorisation from the FSA prior to its launch.

Of course, the regulator must balance the need to allow innovative models to flourish with ensuring that consumers understand the risks involved with new platforms. In this regard, the FSA’s recent guidance on crowd funding makes clear its concerns, which are evidently shared by the noble Lord, Lord Peston. This is the right sort of regulatory response. It shows that we should not rush to create new regulated activities here.

I am also concerned that amending the Bill in this way could create confusion that stifled the growth of the new sector. There are currently many forms of crowd funding. We do not yet know precisely what definition my noble friend had in mind, but the vast majority of these platforms ask customers to make donations rather than investments. They have been very successful in doing that. The world’s largest crowd-fundng site, Kickstarter, for example, which will launch in the UK very soon, raised more than $100 million for creative projects in the past year. A platform such as that does not pose the same risks to investors, who expect no money in return for their donation, so we have to be mindful of the risk of legislating in a way that does not fully take account of the breadth of the businesses in this new area.

In conclusion, although industry standards and further FSA and FCA guidance may have an important role to play in future, my view is that the regulatory structure proposed in the Bill is suitably flexible to support the growth of the full variety of crowd-funding platforms, with a careful eye on the needs of the consumer throughout. With that, I hope that my noble friend will agree to withdraw his probing amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Peston]

If the Minister will read a few lines further on in his own Bill, he will see the words,

“by reason of urgency, it is necessary to make the order”.

That can make sense only if the word “should” is used. It cannot possibly be a meaningful part of the Bill if the word “would” is used. The Treasury must believe that there is a reason of urgency for this to take place and so we infer that “should” is the right word. Otherwise, reasons do not apply, and it reads more like something happening by chance, so let it happen. However, that is not what this bit of the Bill is about. I hate to tell the noble Lord, but on this point I think I understand his Bill better than he does.

[Lord Sassoon]

On this occasion, I am quite confident in my use of the English language, even if the noble Lord understands the Bill better. Outside the Chamber we can debate who understands the Bill better. I am quite clear that “would” is the correct word here because it refers to something which is expected to have the effect of extending regulation. I shall not detain the Committee on what we are not discussing, so let us talk about what we are discussing.

Amendment 148 would require the Treasury to consult on the order made under Section 22 where it would result in an unregulated activity becoming regulated. The Government recognise the best practice established in this area by the Department for Business’s code of practice on consultation. I can assure the Committee that the Government will continue to observe the code wherever possible when conducting formal written consultations. However, I do not think that it would be appropriate to write this requirement into this legislation, as it is not written into many other pieces of legislation. Indeed, the Government generally consult on changes to the regulated activities order. I cannot find any case to date where the Government have introduced substantive changes without consultation. Having said that, it may not be appropriate in all cases: for example, if an urgent change needs to be made to bring an activity into prudential regulation that may cause a financial stability risk. For that additional reason, I think it would be wrong to require consultation.

Amendment 149 would require the Treasury to consult on the first Section 22A order and any subsequent orders which amend the scope of PRA regulation or which amend primary legislation. The Section 22A order sets out the scope of PRA regulation. Here, too, the Government agree—and I am happy to restate it—that it is preferable to consult, and indeed the Treasury will be consulting on a draft of the Section 22A order shortly. I do not think it is necessary to write such requirements into legislation.

It is also worth the Committee noting that both of these types of orders would be subject to the affirmative procedure in all cases. Parliament will always have the chance to consider these amendments, and to consider whether the Government have presented suitable evidence—through a consultation in the normal event—of the need for any change. I think that that backstop is an important point here.

I turn now to Amendment 149AB in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham. He has tabled, I think, only one amendment out of the many hundreds that this Committee has already considered and because I made a concession on it, his batting order is going down from a 100% to a 50% success rate at a stroke. I agree with the noble Lord that orders made by the Treasury that amend Schedule 6 should be subject to the affirmative procedure as they concern changes to the PRA’s and FCA’s threshold conditions, which are the cornerstones of each authority’s regulatory approach. However, we have already provided for this. Clause 46(2), on page 130, includes orders made under Section 55C in the list of orders that should be subject to the affirmative procedure. Therefore it is a simple matter to understand that Amendment 149AB is not needed.

I move to Amendment 174, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord McFall of Alcluith. I will briefly explain the purpose of new Section 141A of FiSMA. It gives the Treasury and the Secretary of State a narrow and technical order-making power to amend legislation that makes reference to the rules of either regulator or to guidance issued by the FCA where the regulator has altered or revoked its rules. This is a sensible approach to ensuring that references to rules and guidance made by the regulator in legislation remain accurate and up to date.

It would not be appropriate to require the Treasury or the Secretary of State to engage in consultations before making amendments to legislation that are a direct consequence of changes to rules or guidance made by the regulator. This would cause unhelpful delays to the process of updating the affected legislation, causing possible confusion and uncertainty for firms and other persons affected. Of course, except in cases of urgency there will already have been consultation on the substantive changes being made to the rules or guidance, as this is required of the regulators.

I hope that with those explanations the noble Lord, Lord McFall, will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Wednesday 25th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, my clear legal advice is that the FCA does not require this additional “have regard” and that there is, notwithstanding the wording to which my noble friend draws attention, a danger that if the list becomes longer and suggestive that it is intended to be exhaustive, that may give rise to legal challenge. That is the advice that I have received from the best legal advisers that the Government have to hand and it is all that I can say on the matter.

I want to wrap up this discussion by going back to some of the things that noble Lords have drawn attention to in new Section 1C on the consumer protection objective. The noble Lord, Lord Peston, for example, is of course quite right to say that some or the majority of consumers of financial services are not “rationally well informed,” to use his term. This is precisely why, among other things, new Section 1C(2)(b) refers to,

“the differing degrees of experience and expertise that different consumers may have”.

This is also why, among other things, we have discussed the important work of the Money Advice Service in improving the ability of consumers to make informed choices, which we will come back to. I therefore agree with the noble Lord’s starting position, but I suggest that the way to deal with it is not through this amendment. I could point to a number of the other provisions in the consumer protection objective which go to the heart of many of the concerns raised in this debate. Coming back to my fundamental analysis that the legal analysis on which this is based is, in the view of the Government, flawed, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Lord Peston]

I am full of despair because the noble Lord seems to have missed the whole point of what we are discussing. He keeps going back to technicalities, which is exactly the wrong way to view this matter. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, who focused on why this Bill is a wasted opportunity, particularly in the way that it is being handled by Ministers. The real disaster that has hit this country is the destruction of the reputation of the financial intermediary sector. We in your Lordships’ House have a chance to do something about that. The way to do this is not to talk about technicalities and to say, “My lawyers say this, and your lawyers say that”. The way to do it is to place in the Bill a particular amendment—I do not really care where it is put. I will not object if the Minister does not like the wording as long as he makes the wording better. We have a chance to save the reputation of an industry which matters enormously to this country.

I find it very upsetting that in the last opinion poll I saw, the financial intermediaries had fallen nearly as low as politicians in terms of their public reputation—we can live with that because in some sense we do not matter. This is enormously important and I implore the Minister to listen to what his noble friend Lord Lucas said. We have a chance here to make a contribution to improve and, indeed, eventually save the reputation of a vitally important industry. This Bill simply does not do that, but it could. That is why I call it a wasted opportunity.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, we are in Committee and discussing a very specific amendment. I therefore make absolutely no apology to the noble Lord, Lord Peston, who raises extremely important Second Reading-type debating points.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords—

[Lord Sassoon]

I will not give away again to the noble Lord for a minute, if he will forgive me. We are discussing a very specific amendment. I have explained why I believe it is defective. The sentiment underlying that is completely shared by the Government: we do not believe it is necessary. The noble Lord raised matters which, although somewhat different, are also related to the capabilities of consumers. I have attempted to address a very serious point by pointing out that his concern will be at the heart, right at the centre, of the new regulatory body’s objective and thinking.

When it comes to his new point, which is not the one I was addressing before, about the standing of the industry, again, I completely agree with him. However, we are now talking about a regulatory structure. The Joint Committee of both Houses has been set up and will look very quickly at some of the wider questions of integrity and standards in the industry. This morning, I am trying to focus on the specific matter of this amendment.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, I find it almost impossible to cope with the way in which the Committee stage of this Bill has been handled. It is completely different to any other Bill which I have taken part in. My point was not a Second Reading point. It was germane to this specific amendment, to what lies behind it, and to the philosophy of it. The Minister’s absolute refusal to even say, “Some good points have been made and I would like to go away and think about them some more”, is what annoys me about this Committee. My experience with the Ministers that I have usually dealt is that when a good point has been made, they always say, “I will go away and think about it some more”, without making any promises. However, the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, never says anything like that. I have not heard him once in five days suggest that there is anything wrong with this Bill, or that he would like to think again. There comes a point when one has to say that, in order that people know that their Lordships have rather high standards.

[Lord Sassoon]

Does the noble Lord, Lord Peston, agree that the Government came forward with a package of very substantial amendments that have already been discussed in Committee? I refer the noble Lord to the number of government amendments that have already been laid and debated, and to the number of times in Committee when I have indeed said that I will look at things or have made concessions. I do not accept for one minute his statement about the attitude with which I have come to the Committee.

Finance: Loan Guarantee Scheme

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Tuesday 24th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the £40 billion infrastructure guarantee scheme is linked to nationally significant infrastructure projects. Typically, the promoters of those projects will not be SMEs, but of course there will be very many SMEs in the supply chain for the projects that will benefit. SMEs working in the public/private partnership space will also benefit from a possible £6 billion of additional loans that was also announced in this package, as will exporters, for whom a £5 billion export refinancing facility will be extended.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, it is obvious that this loan guarantee scheme must involve immense risk because if there were no risk involved, the guarantee would not be required. How will the costs of meeting those risks enter into the public accounts, or will the Government try to fiddle the figures so that they do not eventually appear as public expenditure?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, there will be no fiddling of the numbers by this Government on this or anything else. The position is very straightforward: the financing markets for these projects are extremely difficult but good projects are coming forward in the pipeline, and the beauty of the scheme is that we can use the strength of the government balance sheet. To answer the technical question, the infrastructure guarantees will be financial transactions and will have no impact on PSNB. A project would have an impact on PSND only if there was a non-negligible expected loss, which is not something that we anticipate. The guarantees will generally count as contingent liabilities, and that is very clear.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Wednesday 18th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

If the noble Lord, Lord Davies, would permit me to complete the argument, I have explained that the FCA has an integrity objective, under which standards of professionalism need to be maintained by those in the industry. Within the overall integrity objective the FCA already has a mandate and powers to deal with these issues. It will specifically have powers to impose standards, including training and qualification, on individuals. Training, qualifications and minimum standards will be of considerable importance to the issue of re-establishing a proper banking culture. They are matters which will be relevant to the regulators’ consideration of applications by persons wishing to become approved to carry out significant influence functions, but it is a big step from that to the FCA mandating a training regime across all areas of financial services.

The forthcoming reviews, including that of the parliamentary Joint Committee, will show whether my analysis is right, or whether the committee believes that the FCA needs additional powers. To answer at least one of the challenges from the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, I refer back to the existence of the committee; this is going to be central to what it is looking at. I see one member of the committee nodding assent, but I think it is obvious.

[Lord Peston]

From what we know about the LIBOR scandal is it not valid to infer that, whoever these people engaging financial intermediation are, they are not a bunch of professionals? Is someone not going to have to be responsible for raising professional standards, or if not raising them then introducing them? I am surprised that the Government do not take this as seriously as they should.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, we take it extremely seriously and that is why we thought that it was right to set up the Joint Committee. Unlike the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, I do not doubt that it will get through its work efficiently, effectively and quickly.

[Lord Peston]

He is not alone.

[Lord Sassoon]

I recognise that we are giving it a big challenge and I am grateful to it for taking the challenge on, and for the terms of reference, but we should wait to see what it comes up with in this area. Even if it came up with nothing, there are adequate provisions. On another point that the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, raises, what will be different with the FCA? One of the things that will be different is that the Government are publishing new threshold conditions for all regulated firms. Indeed, they have been published today on the Treasury website in advance of the relevant clauses being debated in due course. They include tougher standards on the probity of staff and management in regulated firms. The noble Lord, Lord Barnett, is right to insist that tougher standards should be imposed by the FCA than the FSA, and that is exactly what we are doing. As ever, he is right on the ball and goes to the heart of the matter.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Tuesday 10th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

I am always grateful to my noble friend or anyone else who wants to take the heat on challenging questions. We will come back to the nature of orders.

On the question of what the experiment is here, the experiment that has failed is that of creating the FSA, and we now need to go back to putting the Bank of England at the heart of matters, which is what this is all about. I rather preferred the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, referring to a “project”, which he did at the end of his speech, rather than an “experiment”. It is indeed a major project.

To dispose of the not entirely relevant question about the Joint Committee on banking ethics and standards, the procedural Motion to set up that committee will be before us very shortly. There is not much more that I can usefully add. I do not think it is directly relevant to these amendments, but I am sure that that Motion will come forward very soon.

[Lord Peston]

It is directly relevant because the Minister has argued constantly that these are times of crisis and that we need to act quickly. He keeps arguing that and blaming the previous Government for the crisis rather than his own Government’s continued mistakes. It is therefore very relevant for us to know when this committee is going to be set up and who will be on it.

[Lord Sassoon]

I am sure that we will not have to wait for very long. I shall address what is more directly the subject of these amendments and the question about possible conflicts between the FPC and the MPC. While it is conceivable that the two committees might seemingly appear to be taking conflicting action, I do not actually believe that that is likely to be the case as each committee’s actions will be designed to address very different aspects of the economy and the financial system. That said, there are mechanisms in place to ensure that conflict does not arise. The committees will share information and briefing in order to aid co-ordination, and the Bill makes provision for joint meetings of the two policy committees if at any time that is required. The Bank has also said that it agrees with the Treasury Committee’s recommendation on this question and that the governor should consult the chairman of court if a conflict arises. It is unlikely, but the Bill makes provision through joint meetings and the consultation with the chairman of court.

I turn to the specifics of Amendments 54 and 55. These amendments seek to require the Treasury to consult the public before making any order which makes macroprudential tools available to the FPC. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, that effective consultation on macroprudential tools is essential, but this amendment is not the best way to achieve it. The practice of public consultation on important matters of policy and legislation is now well established and is engrained in good government practice. My honourable friend the Financial Secretary said in another place:

“As a matter of course and as part of the usual statutory instrument process, I expect that the Treasury will consult on macro-prudential tools”.—[Official Report, Commons, 28/2/12; col.46.]

The Government have already committed to a consultation on their proposals for the FPC’s initial toolkit and will produce a draft statutory instrument as a part of that consultation. The Bill as currently drafted does not prevent the Treasury from consulting the public. The Government have already shown their willingness to consult on macroprudential tools and demonstrated their commitment to transparency by asking the interim FPC to make public recommendations regarding its tools.

I do not quibble with the term “public”. From what the noble Lord said, I suspect that he might have been expecting me to come back and say that this is not for the public, but for consultation with the industry. I accept the context in which he uses the word “public”. That is not my objection. It is good practice to do it. We are doing it. The FPC has been asked to make public its recommendations regarding tools. However, it may not always be appropriate to consult the public, which is why this requirement should not be in the legislation. Not all macroprudential orders will make large changes to the FPC’s direction powers. It is possible that some orders will contain only minor and technical changes and in this instance a three-month public consultation would be unnecessary. The previous Government rightly recognised the risks of undertaking full public consultation in cases where it is not necessary. Their own code of consultation listed seven criteria, one of which stated:

“Keeping the burden of consultation to a minimum is essential if consultations are to be effective and if consultees’ buy-in to the process is to be obtained”.

The Government have stated that they will, in compliance with the principles of good government, consult the public when material changes to the FPC’s direction powers are proposed and in non-urgent cases. I hope that that provides reassurance which the Committee seeks.

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[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, according to these provisions, when the Treasury specifies what macroprudential measures the FPC may exercise, the Treasury may, in relation to those macroprudential measures, confer functions on the regulator. It is intended that this is likely to be used for minor matters such as definitions. For example, the Treasury could provide that the FPC may impose additional capital requirements on exposures to residential property, and that the PRA, as the microregulator, would define the meaning of “residential property”.

There is, therefore, a web of interlocking provisions here, which I fear I did not do justice to in my first attempt to cut through this. Would it help the noble Lord if I take this one away, write to him and copy it to the other Members of the Committee who are here, to try to explain how these provisions will work together? I do not believe that there is any gap here, because it is ancillary to the basic directions that will come via the macroprudentials of the FPC. But there may be some ancillary matters, particularly definitional ones, where the expertise of the PRA or the FCA would be operative and for which we need therefore to keep this element and not to close this off in the way that Amendment 58 seeks to do. I will write to try to set that out more clearly. I am grateful to the noble Lord for that.

Amendment 61 would require the FPC to publish a policy statement within 10 days of a direction being made in relation to a measure made before the FPC had been able to issue a statement of policy under new Section 9L to be inserted into the Bank of England Act 1998 under Clause 3. Again, the Government agree that transparency and openness will be vital to ensure sufficient accountability for the FPC and the use of its tools. However, I believe that this amendment is not appropriate.

The Bill already provides that a policy statement is produced and maintained for each of the Bank’s macroprudential tools. This would also apply to those measures granted using the emergency procedure. However, if a situation were urgent, it would be counterproductive to require the FPC to wait until it has drafted and published a statement of policy before it could use that tool.

We would expect the FPC to produce a statement of policy for the tool as soon as reasonably practical afterwards, assuming that the tool remains in the FPC’s toolkit. I suggest that the requirement in Amendment 61 would be excessively restrictive.

[Lord Peston]

I am very puzzled by the Minister’s answer. That may be because I do not understand what a macroprudential measure is. Macro normally means economy-wide: it does not mean dealing with a specific bank in trouble or anything like that. I would take it to mean that the whole financial intermediation process was in danger of going wrong. I am finding it very hard to believe that, as a matter of urgency if the FPC was acting to deal with that, it would not immediately draft a statement. The idea that it will take time to say, “We have got a crisis on our hands and we are acting” is preposterous. It rather takes us back to the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Flight, which carried the same kind of message. Surely, the point for the Minister to emphasise is that he wishes to make it clear that all of us take it for granted that the relevant decision-making body should do exactly what my noble friend says.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the requirement is there for the statement to be made. Indeed, it would be the full expectation that a statement would be made. We believe that the Bill does not need any extra amendment in relation to statements that relate to macroprudential measures where they are exercised as a matter of urgency. The statement has to be made in any case.

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[Lord Peston]

My Lords, one of our difficulties in discussing this matter is that no one has mentioned a specific macroprudential measure. We are discussing them totally in the abstract, so perhaps I might mention a couple and say why the positive approach might well be relevant. If we look back to the corrupt practices of the past on the part of financial intermediaries, I suppose the worst of them was the mixing up of a package of toxic and non-toxic assets and then marketing them as if they were non-toxic. I would assume that for the relevant body here, if it was confronted with this, it would be relevant to introduce a macroprudential measure to say that that is simply not going to happen. It would describe the measure and intervene. The Minister shakes his head. Is he saying that that is not an example of a macroprudential measure?

[Lord Sassoon]

I would say that examples of macroprudential measures are things such as leveraged ratios. If we are talking about the mis-selling of products, that is generally not going to be a question of macroprudential tools but a conduct matter that the FCA would deal with. They would not be the sorts of things covered in the macro toolkit of the Financial Policy Committee, as the noble Lord describes it.

[Lord Peston]

Speaking as an economist, that sounds complete nonsense to me. I point out to the Minister that the measure I have just described was at the centre of the collapse of both the British and American financial systems in the post-2007 era. This is precisely what these financial intermediaries were up to and precisely what led to the enormous damage that all the economies have suffered. How the Minister can possibly say that that is not a relevant tool is completely beyond me. I could give him some more examples, but let us leave it at that one.

The only question then is whether the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, is right that if it were introduced as an order we could not debate it in a way to be able to say that the Government’s method of dealing with this problem could be bettered. That is the only point at issue here. I would not like us to do this all the time. I would simply like us—and I mean the other place at least as much as us—to have the power to be able to say, “We can see that you’ve identified the problem and that you’ve got a solution, which you’re introducing by this order, but we think you could do it better this way”. That is all I am arguing and I cannot see what is unreasonable about it.

Economic Policies

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Wednesday 4th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, even though the latest business surveys show that private sector employment is significantly up and that manufacturing and service sector sales continue to grow, it is certainly the case that that is happening in the face of very tough financing conditions. That is why, among other things, the national loan guarantee scheme and the announcements from the Chancellor and the governor about the new funding for lending scheme, details of which will be put out in the coming weeks, were very important.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, bearing in mind the extreme antipathy of the Europhobes on his own Benches and their desire to leave the European Union, why therefore are they so happy to have our economy run by the credit rating agencies?

[Lord Sassoon]

I am not sure that was a question that was addressed to me. However, I do not think that characterises the position of any noble friends of mine.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Tuesday 3rd July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Peston]

Before the noble Lord goes on with his agreement, which I am looking forward to, I still have not heard any argument from him about “subject to that”. What he has to say requires the word “and”, not “subject to that”. There is no way that “subject to that” makes any sense. To give him an example, could he imagine the head of the FPC being interviewed on the “Today” programme? The first question is, “What are you doing?”. “I’m contributing to the stability objective.” “Oh, and, incidentally, do you support the Government’s economic policies?” “Oh, no.” Can you imagine him saying, “Oh, no”? I cannot imagine any circumstances in which he would say, “Oh, no”. I cannot even imagine any circumstances—unless he wants to be regarded as insane—in which he would say, “I am unable to answer that question”. His only possible answer to the question “Do you support the Government’s economic policies?” is “Yes”, which is why the word “and” ought to be there and not “subject to that”.

That is why I regard the view that the Treasury took on the MPC as fudging the thing. I am afraid the ex-Treasury people have to recognise that that is what the MPC does. Could you imagine the Governor of the Bank of England saying, “I don’t support the Government’s economic policies”? We are not discussing the MPC. We are discussing the FPC—I always forget its name. Why does the Minister not use the simpler language, rather than “subject to that”, which is totally spurious?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, as I was coming on to say, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, which is very much to the point of the noble Lord, Lord Peston. The FPC has to, and should, be able to lean against the wind—in appropriate circumstances—which is why the FPC’s primary objective is and should remain financial stability. It is right that it is “subject to that” primary objective that the FPC should seek to support the Government’s economic policy. The wording picks that up in the way that an “and” would not. We will have to disagree on that. I have given examples of where I believe that the FPC will interpret the language we have used appropriately.

Although I do not want to go too far into MPC territory, it is relevant to look at the MPC because there are examples one can draw out from its analysis to suggest that language is used in the MPC context in a very similar way to the way I would expect it to be used in the FPC context. I draw the attention of the noble Lord, Lord Peston, to what deputy governor Charlie Bean said in February 2012: that if the MPC,

“had chosen to run a substantially tighter monetary policy, then that would only have served to depress activity and raise unemployment even further … it would also make the task of fiscal consolidation and de-leveraging even more challenging. And by providing a gloomier climate for business, it would also inhibit investment and slow the necessary re-balancing of our economy towards manufacturing and internationally tradable services”.

Although this is not the time to go into it further, it is possible to argue—and the evidence is very much there—that the MPC is affected by the wording in the same way in which the suggested wording of the Government’s amendments will bite on the FPC. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord O’Donnell, for further illuminating some of these issues.

The three situations in which the noble Baroness, Lady Valentine, quite rightly postulated that the new secondary objective needs to work were good times, crisis and uncertainty. I can only say that I completely agree with her and that the wording that the Government propose strikes the right balance and will take account of all those scenarios. Of course, we are not relying solely on the secondary objective for growth, but I am sure that she understands that.

Economy: Deficit Reduction

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Thursday 28th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I can assure my noble friend that the Government are committed both through the changes that we are making to the income tax system and to other public expenditure decisions to protect the vulnerable and reward those who choose to work, particularly at the lower income levels. So we have, for example, the uprating of benefits by 5.2% more than average earnings growth to protect people from rising prices; reforms to the tax credit system, so that we are tackling the deficit in a fair way; uprating the child tax credits, so that families see an increase of £135 per child this year as well as £180 over inflation last year; changes to personal allowances, which will benefit 25 million people, taking 260,000 people out of income tax altogether; and the fairness premium at £7.2 billion—I could go on. My noble friend is right, and I can confirm that this will be very much at the forefront of the Government’s thinking.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, bearing in mind that the Lords reform Bill is predicated on the Government’s view that your Lordships’ House lacks legitimacy, I congratulate the Minister on his willingness—at least on this occasion—to answer our questions, albeit not very satisfactorily. I hope he continues with that.

On the substantive issue, has the Minister seen the Governor of the Bank of England’s latest, extraordinarily pessimistic forecast about the likely status of what one would have called the real economy—as opposed to the financial economy? Bearing in mind that most of the Government’s expenditure cuts have not yet been made, surely the governor in his pessimism is actually not being pessimistic enough. Does the noble Lord agree?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I think that the Governor of the Bank of England is, as always, being very realistic and clear about the nature of the dangers that we continue to face particularly because of the eurozone crisis. This is precisely why we will stick to the fiscal course that we have charted; why it is supported by the IMF, the OECD and business organisations here; and why it is that we have 10-year interests at 1.7 per cent. We will do nothing to jeopardise that position in the face of the very real dangers that the governor points out.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Tuesday 26th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, I notice that the Chief Whip is in her place, so when will we who propose to spend quite a lot of time on the Bill and make serious contributions be told of the days on which we will be sitting, and how many days we will be sitting, before the House rises? It would enable some of us at least to get something resembling a life.

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, the Forthcoming Business will be issued in the normal manner following discussions through the usual channels.

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[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, different noble Lords will want to digest the material in different ways. Some of us may find it much easier to focus on what we are interested in on a computer screen. I am certainly conscious of the wasteful expenditure of resources and taxpayers’ money when people do not want printed copies. I will investigate, but it may be that copies are available through the Library. I do not know—let me have a look at that. But it is certainly on the website. I suggest that noble Lords may not want to download all 600 pages but will be interested in particular sections. I underline the fact that a huge effort was gone into that far exceeds anything that would normally go into a Keeling schedule.

The noble Lord, Lord Peston, asked about Keeling schedules. When he asked about them a couple of days ago, I had no idea what they were. So I asked for somebody to have a look on the internet, where there is a very interesting debate. It starts by questioning whether these schedules were named after the stunt woman, Liise Keeling, or the distinguished former Member of Parliament for Twickenham, Mr E H Keeling, later Sir Edward. It was the latter who did it in conjunction with Mr R P Croom-Johnson, later Mr Justice Croom-Johnson. So there was, indeed, a Keeling schedule, but it is something that has fallen out of common use over the past decade and more. I suggest that we have gone rather further than a Keeling schedule in producing a fully amended version of FSMA on the Treasury website. There is not, before I am challenged, an amended version of the Bank of England Act, because the changes that we propose to that Act are relatively straightforward. The major innovations in the Bill, such as Clauses 3 and 5, which we will get to in due course, are drafted as entire new clauses, and may be read and scrutinised very straightforwardly as self-standing provisions.

[Lord Peston]

This reminds me of the Marx Brothers stuff and the great joke about whether we have an insanity clause. Am I to understand that there is no such thing as a Keeling schedule and that it does not exist? Is that the answer to my question?

[Lord Sassoon]

It is something that used to exist and the concept is still out there in the ether, but it has fallen out of common use over the past 20 years. For this Bill, there is no Keeling schedule but there is the 658-page, fully amended version of FSMA, which is accessible on the Treasury website. It serves the purpose of a Keeling schedule and does more than that.

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[Lord Peston]

Before the Minister finishes what he is saying, could I ask him a question which is a sort of question of economics? I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord O’Donnell, that it would seem very strange indeed if the Governor of the Bank of England did not chair both the FPC and the Monetary Policy Committee. But then I ask myself, “Does that mean that there is a vast amount of spare capacity in the governor; that he has been twiddling his thumbs looking for other things to do, and this is a way of making use of his skills?”. This is a very serious question. I remember that when I chaired the Economic Affairs Committee—or rather, its predecessor—the previous governor chaired the committee in a way completely different from the way that the present governor chairs the MPC. I could enlarge on that, if the Committee liked. I was given a complete set of papers for the MPC, a vast amount, which I found fascinating. On the basis of those papers, I would have found it a full-time job just to chair that committee. I am therefore at somewhat of a loss as to where the spare capacity comes from. What is the governor not now going to do in order to chair the FPC? That is a very serious question indeed. This would not have been a problem for the previous governor, because he regarded his role as chairman as just chairman. He did not intervene; for example, he always voted last. He was never defeated, and when he used to give me lunch regularly I would say to him, “There is no big deal in being on the losing side”. He said, “It is impossible for me as Governor of the Bank of England ever to be defeated in the MPC. It would be quite out of the question”. I was very impressed with the present governor being willing to be defeated. I am often defeated, but I never think I am wrong; I just shrug and walk away.

Could the Minister therefore tell me where the spare capacity in the governor is to be found, so that he can chair both these committees entirely satisfactorily, in the way the present governor does it?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, first of all, I am not going to respond to the challenge of how different governors have handled committee chairing. As I have explained, I have sat in on one meeting of the MPC. We have other noble Lords, or at least one, who have sat in on a lot of meetings. I am not sure where the noble Lord, Lord Peston, gets his first-hand experience from, but let us put that aside. I hear now that he has no first-hand experience. Well, I am glad to hear that, but let us put that on one side.

I appreciate that in this Bill, and under the present arrangements, the Governor of the Bank of England has a very challenging job. The essence of what we are putting back into the Bank of England is, of course, leadership in financial supervision, which was part of the historical role of the Bank, except for the last 15 years or so. The Bank has essentially had these responsibilities in the past. The governor is and will be very well supported, partly by the deputy governors, as I have explained, but also, of course, by the whole Bank and PRA executive. This whole construct has been discussed in detail with the present governor, so I am fully confident, without being able to go through the governor’s time and analyse it, that this has been carefully thought about and the new proposed role of the governor is entirely manageable with the support that the governor has and will have.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sassoon]

Before the noble Lord sits down, I would point out that very recently Rachel Lomax was a very distinguished deputy governor of the Bank, to name but one, and there are now some very able senior female members in the banking sector, to avoid any doubt on that matter.

[Lord Peston]

Women comprise half the population of the country, do they not? If we look at ratios, there is not a lot to boast about.

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[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, first, of course the Government place great importance on the suitability and independence of the Governor of the Bank of England. We are all clear that the governor’s role is already a challenging one and that future holders of this post will need to possess an even broader range of skills, experience and expertise. We do not in any way seek to deny that. However, although I fully recognise the great importance of this appointment, I am very confident that there are already robust arrangements in place, which I will go through in a minute.

It is good that we are now focusing in this debate for the first time very directly on the amendments that we are discussing, which makes for a much more productive 35 minutes than we have had on this. In the debate, which has been instructive and interesting, I have heard some voices speaking up for some form of parliamentary veto, some arguing for consultation, some arguing that it should be the Treasury Committee in another place and some suggesting that it should be that committee and/or—I am not quite sure which—the Economic Affairs Committee of this House. Although it is not the subject of an amendment, I heard at least one suggestion that if we were going to change anything, we should go rather more radical and make it subject to a vote of the whole House in another place. That is a rather broad menu. There are many ways to skin this particular cat but I suggest that there are already robust arrangements in place

The governor and the deputy governors of the Bank are appointed by Her Majesty the Queen on the recommendation of the Chancellor and the Prime Minister. Since 2009, this Government and the previous Government have agreed that in principle these appointments will be subject to open public competition. That is what happened with the most recent example of Paul Tucker, who was appointment deputy governor in 2009, and that practice will continue. The Treasury Committee already holds pre-commencement hearings with those who have been selected to become governors and deputy governors. Therefore, I do not believe that Amendment 5 is necessary.

To be absolutely clear regarding something that I think I heard the noble Lord, Lord McFall, say, I certainly agree that Amendment 10 is connected with Amendment 5 but, to be technically right, I would not accept that Amendment 10 is consequential on it. I just wish to be clear on that technical point.

Having been appointed, the governor certainly cannot be removed on a whim. Indeed, the Government have no powers to remove a Governor of the Bank of England. Rather, the Treasury must give its consent if the Bank decides that the governor has met the criteria for removal. However, it is the Bank’s decision to make. The legislation is clear that the governor, a deputy governor or a director of the Bank can be removed only with cause—that is, if the Bank is satisfied that he or she has been absent from meetings of the court for more than three months without the consent of the court, that he or she has become bankrupt, or that he or she is unable or unfit to discharge their functions as a member. That is very clear.

Some commentators have suggested that the fact that the appointments of the chair and independent members of the Office for Budget Responsibility are subject to a Treasury Select Committee veto sets a precedent and that governor appointments should also be subject to a parliamentary veto. However, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, who suggested that these cases are rather different. The role of the governor and the members of the OBR are both characterised by the need for especially talented and independent candidates, but that is where the similarities end. The OBR performs an important function in providing an independent and unbiased forecast on which government policy can be based, whereas the governor carries out executive functions on behalf of the state.

More than that, and more broadly relevant to the amendments, this policy-making role makes the appointment of a prospective governor extremely market-sensitive in a way that appointments to the OBR and many other appointments simply are not. The uncertainty created by a public pre-appointment approval process could, depending on the market conditions at the time, be significantly damaging. The noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, may not like this analysis but I suggest that the person performing the role of governor attracts significant market interest. A huge amount of time and effort is spent examining every scrap of information relating to members of the Bank’s policy committees in order to gain insight into their thinking and determine likely future policy responses, and that will very much be the case with candidates for the post of governor.

Once the candidate is announced, his or her particular leanings can be factored into asset prices. The Treasury Select Committee will then be able to conduct pre-commencement hearings, providing a useful insight into the professional competence and personal independence of the appointee. However, I suggest that pre-appointment hearings of the sort suggested and necessitated by the amendments in this group would exacerbate the uncertainty of markets about who will be appointed, and that would be inappropriate.

I am also sure, and I do not need to point out, that I could apply similar arguments regarding the dismissal of a governor. The uncertainty around any such dismissal would be just as damaging. In addition, I cannot see how the position of a governor whom the Bank had sought to remove for reasons of unfitness for the post could be anything other than untenable if the Treasury Committee reversed the decision, so I simply do not understand how that would work in practice.

I believe that the current arrangement of pre-commencement, rather than pre-appointment, hearings provides the right balance. It gives Parliament an opportunity to question the new appointee on their views and qualifications without bringing into question, or placing doubts over, the appointment itself. A parliamentary veto on appointments and dismissals would introduce uncertainty into these processes, and that would apply whether the veto was given to the Treasury Committee in the other place or to your Lordships own Economic Affairs Committee. For these reasons, I believe it is inappropriate for the Bill to provide that a parliamentary committee must approve governor appointments or dismissals.

[Lord Peston]

Before the noble Lord moves on to his next point, can he, for my education, explain one aspect of the drafting of the Bill? With regard to what we are discussing, can he tell me whether there is any significance in lines 8, 9, 10 and 11 on page 1, which refer to “a Governor” and “a Deputy Governor”, and line 15, et cetera, where the references are to “the Governor” and “the Deputy Governor”? Is this a fundamental matter of parliamentary draftsmanship, which is beyond me, or is it simply a grammatical error?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, it relates to the former. I do not think it is fundamental; it just fits in with the construct of the legislation that we are talking about. There is no mystery behind it; it is purely a case of the grammar that the draftsmen have thought appropriate to use in the different lines.

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[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I have dealt as fully as I can with the arguments. All I would suggest is that it further points out that this is not an easy area. As the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, said, there are lots of possible solutions. If he were to change it at all, he would go to a solution that is not one of the number on the table at the moment. The Government’s position remains that we have an appropriate balance in all of this.

In answer more specifically to the noble Lord, Lord Peston, since I had the time during that little exchange to do a bit more research into “a”s and “the”s, the point is simple. The first reference is to the creation of “a Governor” and the subsequent reference is to “the Governor” who is at that point in the flow of the legislation being created. I hope that that helps to explain what is going on.

[Lord Peston]

No, it does not.

[Lord Sassoon]

It does not. Oh well.

[Lord Peston]

My concern was with the correct use of English. It does not help but I cannot believe that it matters at all.

[Lord Sassoon]

Even if it does not matter, I try. I do my best to answer these points, even if it causes more confusion. Sometimes the “a”s and the “the”s could be very important.

I move on to Amendment 6 tabled by my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft, on which, no surprise, I will not be much more accommodating, but it is an important point that should be discussed. As I said, it is vital that the post be filled by the best possible candidate and taken from candidates who have expertise and skills to fulfil the role effectively. The legislation as it stands does not prohibit the Chancellor consulting widely before recommending that a candidate be appointed as governor. In practice, the Treasury and the Bank work together closely to recruit for key Bank of England posts. I am sure that my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will engage with key individuals as appropriate during the process to identify the next Governor of the Bank of England. Indeed, well ahead of the formal process kicking off, the chairman of court, Sir David Lees, and the Chancellor are already in touch on this matter.

However, I suggest that we should keep in mind that the appointment is ultimately for the Queen to make on the advice of the Prime Minister and Chancellor. Many people may be consulted as part of the process to appoint a new governor, but it would be impractical to attempt to define them prescriptively in the Bill. By leaving the legislation broad in this way, the Chancellor will be able to consult whoever he or she feels will add value to the advice. The people consulted may well change depending on the circumstances of the appointment. I suggest that that is how to leave the legislation but I hope that I have given the Committee some perspective on how these things will be handled. I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

Budget: Cost of Changes

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Tuesday 12th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am not rewriting history.

[Lord Peston]

Will the Minister clarify his answer? Are we to assume that £125 million is a small number and that all the changes are therefore no big deal or that it is a large number and that the changes are therefore of overwhelming significance? What message is he trying to give us and, for that matter, the public at large?

[Lord Sassoon]

The message I am trying to give the House is that there were changes that we felt appropriate—on VAT on hot food, VAT on static caravans and the proposed cap on giving to charities—and that the total cost of the changes in those three areas was in the range of £120 million to £150 million a year. That is the only message that I am trying to give to the House.

Economy: Quantitative Easing

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Monday 19th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am certainly not going to pre-empt any announcements this week of that kind or any other, or I may not be here to answer the next Question at the Dispatch Box. I think that the £20 billion, which has already been announced, and reducing the interest rate that SMEs would otherwise have to pay by the order of 1 per cent would be a very good start.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, can I ask the Minister whether he agrees—which he seemed to say—that quantitative easing is part of monetary policy? If it is part of monetary policy, what business is it of either the previous Chancellor or the present one to claim that they have a decision-making role in this matter, since the Bank of England Act makes it absolutely clear, when discussing the reserved powers of the Treasury, that they can intervene only if they lay before both Houses of Parliament an order authorising them to intervene? Have not the Chancellor of the Government whom I supported and the present Chancellor both been acting illegally?

[Lord Sassoon]

No, my Lords, even the previous Chancellor, I am happy to say, was not acting illegally in this matter and the current Chancellor certainly is not. As I have already explained to the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, the only reason for the Chancellor having to authorise this is because HM Government indemnify the Bank for any losses that it may suffer by exercising purchases under the asset purchase facility.

EU: Economic and Financial Issues

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Monday 12th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the strategy did not fail on 8 and 9 December. We did not sign up to a treaty which it would have been wholly wrong for the UK to sign up to on the terms that were offered. What is happening now and is very positive is that we are working with a significant number of like-minded countries to drive forward the growth agenda. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister was one of 12 Heads of Government who signed up to a letter very much led by us. We have regular meetings with 16 like-minded countries to define and drive forward the pro-growth agenda.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, perhaps the Minister will enlighten us on one thing. Given that the Liberal Democrats are traditionally Europhiles and the Tory party is at present packed in both Houses with Europhobes, how can we get a rational approach to anything to do with the European economy at all?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I believe that the coalition is driving forward our agenda on Europe with great coherence. As I have explained, the UK is leading the way not just on the single market and competitiveness issues but issues including Iran, Burma and many other areas on which we are very much at the forefront and lined up with many of our European partners.

Budget Deficit

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Wednesday 15th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

I completely agree with my noble friend. The point is that we will balance the books only because doing so over the five-year period is a prudent way of doing it. By that point the debt will also have started to come down. That is the way that the Government will continue to do it.

[Lord Peston]

The noble Lord told us all to be patient. I remind him that the great economist Lord Keynes said:

“In the long run we are all dead”.

Is the Government’s problem not that, having created this air of disaster for the country, no one in the private sector believes that the economy will get going and, therefore, no one has any intention whatever of investing in new equipment while the Government’s policies are in place?

[Lord Sassoon]

No, my Lords, I do not accept that at all. The only disaster is the mountain of debt—the structural position—left by the previous Government. As I have explained, the signs from the private sector, whether rising exports or rising total employment in the economy, are very encouraging. It is very difficult but we have to do everything we can, including keeping interest rates low, to make business confident enough to invest for the future.

Individual Savings Accounts: AIM Shares

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Tuesday 31st January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, this is a Question that we come back to on a regular basis and my answers are going to sound boringly repetitive. I see the noble Lord, Lord Myners, in his place. He answered this Question in the dying days of the previous Government. The simple fact is that the ISA is a trusted brand in which more than 23 million adults—45 per cent of the adult population—hold shares, and we need to protect that trusted brand and the suite of products within it. On the other hand, the Government have taken a range of measures to support small businesses. In relation to SIPPs, the liquidity requirements of an ISA with a 30-day withdrawal period, in particular, are very different from what might be the case when locking up shares for the long term in a pension savings product.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, I think that I understand the noble Lord’s answer but surely the main criterion that ought to be applied to ISAs is: do we have a system that maximises people’s propensity to save using ISAs? If it can be demonstrated that the Alternative Investment Market will do that, even if it is more risky—and, incidentally, people ought to know that all investments are risky—surely it still makes sense for the Government to widen the range of assets, assuming that that encourages people to save.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am very happy to confirm that ISAs have indeed been a very successful product. As I said, 45 per cent of the population over the age of 16 hold them. On the latest numbers that I have seen, the total value of ISAs is £350 billion. It was a successful initiative of the previous Government. It is the main savings product of a large part of the population and we should not do anything to undermine the value of that brand.

Eurozone Crisis

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Tuesday 17th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, there is a whole range of views about the effect of the eurozone breaking down in any way. All I can say is that 40 per cent of our trade goes to Europe, and we want to see a strengthened and healthy eurozone. That is fundamentally in the interests of the UK. A crisis in the eurozone presents the most imminent threat to growth in this country.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sassoon]

I am happy to try to clarify the Government’s position. It is very clear that the Government see the IMF’s role as supporting individual countries and not currencies. That has always been its role. If the IMF puts forward a case, as it may well do, for an increase in its resources, and if there is a strong case, the UK will support the IMF in increasing resources as required, as it has always done in the past.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, using the immortal words of the noble Lord, Lord Henley, will the Minister give me a lesson in economics and explain why the Government still do not forthrightly support the maintenance of the euro? What possible benefit is there to us in the Government seeming to drag their heels when dealing with this matter?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, as I have repeatedly made clear this afternoon and on other occasions, the UK Government want to see a strong and dynamic eurozone and European economy. But it is for the eurozone countries to take the lead in supporting the euro as a currency.

Economy: Monetary and Fiscal Policy

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Tuesday 8th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Barnett, and at his request, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, the independent Monetary Policy Committee has operational responsibility for monetary policy. Fiscal policy is a competence of the Treasury. When making its monetary policy decisions, the MPC takes into account fiscal policy, among other factors, when judging the outlook for growth and inflation. A non-voting Treasury representative attends monthly MPC meetings and plays a key role in ensuring the appropriate co-ordination of fiscal and monetary policy. This includes, when appropriate, briefing the MPC on the Budget.

[Lord Peston]

I thank the Minister for that. Bearing in mind that the monetary policy of the Bank of England is failing in its statutory duty to hit the inflation target set by the Government and does not even seem to be trying, and that fiscal policy has got us nowhere near full employment or a sustainable rate of real growth, is it not the case that far from there being co-ordination of monetary and fiscal policy, what we see on the part of the Government is simply an utter shambles?

Banking: Quantitative Easing

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Monday 10th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the downgrading by Moody's last week was long expected by the markets. It is largely a reflection of the fact that under the Vickers proposals—the independent commission's proposals—there will be a different relationship between the banks and the taxpayer: the taxpayer will not be on the hook for the banking system in the way that it was. As a result, as expected, Moody's changed the ratings on a number of banks. Equally, it made it clear that that was not a reflection on the well capitalised state of the UK banking system. The UK banks continue, as Moody's and others have said, to be in a more robust state to withstand shocks from the eurozone than banks on the continent of Europe.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, I am not sure that I understood one of the noble Lord’s earlier answers. Does the Treasury expect to get back all the money it has put into the two banks mentioned in the Question? If so, when can we expect to see that money?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I do not think that I touched on that point in a previous answer at all. UKFI has a responsibility, on behalf of the Government, to look, over time, at ways to create value out of the shareholdings, and that is what it will do. There is no question of any particular benchmark; we need to ensure that the taxpayer gets maximum value, subject to questions of competition and financial stability, over time, from the holdings in the banks. That is the mandate that UKFI has.

Economy: Capital Expenditure

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Tuesday 4th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to my noble friend because the second of our two fiscal targets—namely, to put public sector net debt on a falling trajectory by 2015-16—is extremely important. He is quite right that we have to look at the total stock of debt and its trajectory as well as the deficit.

[Lord Peston]

When will the Government recognise that the present dire state of the economy is attributable overwhelmingly to their own stupid policies?

[Lord Peston]

Is it not about time that the Government apologised to the British people for what they are doing and accepted responsibility for it?

[Lord Sassoon]

It will not surprise the noble Lord if I completely disagree with that. The state of the economy today is largely a result of the debt-fuelled boom with its unregulated banks that was allowed to go on for 10 years and more under the previous Government. We have inherited a dire situation and the first thing we have to do is to get the deficit under control. That we are doing but within that, as I have explained, one of things we are prioritising is infrastructure expenditure.

Finance: Eurozone

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Tuesday 19th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords—

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that some of us do not believe in exaggerating the problems of the eurozone or using the word “crisis”, which is immensely damaging and should not be used by Her Majesty's Government? Is he aware that, overall, the eurozone has been a great success? A vast amount of eurozone paper is held willingly throughout the world and ever more trade is being carried out in euros. Is it not about time that Her Majesty's Government took at long last a more positive attitude both to the eurozone and to Europe in general?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, we take as a Government a very positive and pragmatic attitude towards Europe and the eurozone. It is after all where 40 per cent or more of the UK’s exports go. We wish the eurozone success. In the ways that I have sketched out and we have discussed on other occasions, we will be supportive, particularly on completing the single market and putting in place structural reforms. At the same time, it is right for countries to make their decision as to whether they want to be in or out, and the UK has made and continues to make the right decision about where we are.

Finance: Off-exchange Trading Venues

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Monday 18th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, we should distinguish—as I am sure my noble friend Lady Kramer does—between the two issues of dark pools and high-frequency trading, both of which I am sure noble Lords are very familiar with. Dark pools are akin to what used to be called “upstairs trading”—off the floor of the Stock Exchange. We need to make sure that the benefits of being able to trade in such an environment, such as competition and choice for investors, do not impinge in any way on the transparency and the price-discovery ability of markets. The FSA has done work on that and is content that the price-discovery mechanism is not being damaged.

High-frequency trading is a very new and slightly separate area, although I agree that it is related, and it is one on which the Government are doing considerable work. A research project led by the Government Office for Science is looking at the possible evolution of computer-generated trading and its implications, and will produce up to 20 papers on the subject during 2011.

[Lord Peston]

Are dark pools the same as dark matter, which the astrophysicists tell us permeates the universe but which no one can observe? Is not the problem that for a considerable period banks and other financial institutions marketed paper assets that had no real assets behind them, and that that is what led to the financial crisis? Is it not more worrying that the banks cannot wait to get up to the same tricks again, and will do so if something is not done to regulate them properly?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am no great expert on dark matter and black holes, but I think the distinguishing point about dark pools is that they are a venue for trading that enables confidential orders to be submitted and matched using a reference point that comes from a transparent market. As soon as the trade is done, the details are reported publicly. Therefore, there is confidential trading and then full reporting, which is the critical feature of the market. Various platforms are available for the market, which accounts for something of the order of 7 per cent of UK and European equity trading. It is not a dominant part of the market by any means, but it is one that we are watching.

Office for Budget Responsibility

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Wednesday 6th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for pointing out the IMF’s recent assessment that endorses the deficit reduction plan, as has the Governor of the Bank of England and just about every other commentator I can think of. That is the plan to which we stick. The third Question this afternoon is on matters related to the Monetary Policy Committee and maybe it would be better to talk about monetary matters then.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, does the noble Lord look every month as I do at an admirable document published by his own department which is a survey of all the independent forecasts made every month by the leading forecasters in this country? Is he aware that their latest figures show that the economy will grow by 1.5 per cent this year, not exactly the greatest performance ever; it is predicted to grow by 2.1 per cent next year and the medium-term forecast is approximately 2.3 per cent for the three further years? Is he aware therefore that alleged independent Office for Budget Responsibility, in the document quoted with great approval in the Budget Statement this year, predicted that for the three medium-term years the economy would grow at 2.8 to 2.9 per cent? When will he or his right honourable colleague the Chancellor go back to this alleged Office for Budget Responsibility and ask it how it managed to get the three most important numbers it was talking about wrong?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I recognise the numbers that the noble Lord, Lord Peston, quotes from the excellent monthly publication that the Treasury produces averaging out the independent forecasts. The Office for Budget Responsibility last published a forecast in March. It is obliged to put out forecasts at least twice a year. We can look forward to another one in the autumn and we will see what it has to say then. As to the extraordinary charge of the alleged independence of the Office for Budget Responsibility, I was pleased to see, only within the past couple of weeks, that the noble Lord, Lord Burns, has been appointed as one of the first two non-executive members of the office, which is a sure sign that its independence is going to be very safely guarded.

Banking: Government Shares

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Monday 13th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I could be churlish or be fair to other noble Lords who might want to ask about the subject of this Question, which is the Government’s plans to sell shares in the publicly owned banks. We seem to be straying rather far from it. Project Merlin, agreed between the Government and the banks, means that the banks have put aside considerably more lending capacity this year for SMEs than last year. We have transparent reporting and a range of other initiatives to which the banks have committed to ensure that lending flows. We have also put money into a new equity fund for smaller businesses. These were things that the previous Government did not do but which have only peripheral relevance to the subject of this Question, which is about the sale of shares in the banks.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I can confirm to my noble friend that UK Financial Investments will be considering retail participation in the distribution of the shares. That does not, of course, necessarily mean quite what he said, which is some form of distribution but, yes, mass participation in some form is very much to be considered. Value for money is also one of the considerations that UKFI is required to take into account.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, particularly as the Minister used the phrase value for money, is not the Government’s prime duty in determining when to sell making sure that the taxpayer gets the maximum proceeds from the sale of the shares? Is that not clear-cut? Is it not also clear-cut that the one group that should not be allowed to bid for the shares is the bankers who got us into this financial mess in the first place?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the obligation on UK Financial Investments is to provide advice to the Government on the time and form of sale. Value for money, as widely defined, is very much a consideration. The Government do not intend to be a permanent investor in the banks, but the timing of any disposals will take account of many considerations, including market conditions at the time.

Public Expenditure: Reserve

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Monday 9th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

No, it did not and I will not talk about hypothetical situations.

[Lord Peston]

It is difficult not be cynical about any discussion of this subject. I spent the morning—I probably wasted it—looking at the history of what Governments say about their attitudes to contingencies. In all cases, they say exactly what the Minister has said, except for one thing. When the chips are down and they have what they call a crisis, which they are never short of, they spend all the money that they want to spend.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I have been back and looked at the record and it is certainly the case that the previous Government went and topped up the reserve on at least 10 occasions. They increased borrowings when it looked as if expenditure was going to exceed their totals. This Government, when they set a total for managed expenditure, intend that it will not be exceeded.

Inflation

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Thursday 17th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for recognising that the Chancellor’s letter was indeed couched in suitable terms. What my right honourable friend said on these points related specifically to commodity markets with our G20 partners—this is a particular focus of the G20 presidency, now with the French—to make sure that we have some global understanding of the drivers and an analysis of what might follow from that.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the problem is that the only instrument available to the MPC is the interest rate? The present rise in price levels is externally driven, which an increase in the interest rate can influence only by strengthening sterling. That would shift demand away from British markets to overseas markets and totally undermine the Government’s strategy. We know that the rules are that the Chancellor cannot say any of that, for obvious reasons, but is the Minister aware that three members of the MPC voted for a rise in interest rates, each one of whom is supposedly an economist? I do not know whether that is a source of enormous embarrassment to the Chancellor, but it certainly is to me.

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Peston, as ever, for his insights and for pointing out that he did not expect the Chancellor to answer the question that was posed. Therefore, by extension, he would not expect me to do so. There are a number of very serious points here, the most important of which for the Government is that we need to stick to our fiscal policies as they were set out in the Budget and the spending plans last year. Only yesterday, the OECD endorsed the Government’s fiscal consolidation plans and structural reforms, pointing out that, in its view, this rebalancing was necessary for stronger growth. That is what we must stick to as a background against which the independent MPC is best able to make its interest rate decisions.

Monetary Policy Committee

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Wednesday 16th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I can confirm to my noble friend that sustainable and low interest rates are absolutely what businesses need to enable them to invest and to support the recovery. I will make a further point before the noble Lord, Lord Myners, jumps up. Last week he chided me for not giving the data on relative interest rates. However, the context then was not relevant. It is very relevant to the Question this morning. The latest data from yesterday on our performance on relative interest rates—the 10-year sovereign borrowing rate since the general election—show that the UK continues to outperform the US. We have narrowed our spreads against the 10-year bund by 39 basis points since the general election at a time when the French, for example, have widened their spread by 10 basis points. Therefore, on relative interest costs, which are a key indicator of whether the markets believe the Government are on their economic course, the news continues to be that we have the confidence of the markets.

[Lord Peston]

Will the noble Lord confirm that it is vital never to confuse the price level with the inflation rate? If the price level goes up as the result of a deliberate policy by the Government to raise VAT, there is no reason to interpret that as a rise in inflation. Therefore, it would be entirely idiotic for the MPC to raise interest rates at any time solely because the Government had raised VAT. Does the noble Lord agree?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, again, I do not want to be drawn into either economic debate with the noble Lord, Lord Peston, or commentary on the governor. The governor indicates that the rise in VAT was one factor behind the rise in inflation, but I should point out that the rise in VAT to which he was referring was the one under the previous Government and not the present rise to 20 per cent. However, I take the noble Lord’s point about the nature of one-off rises such as that.

Deficit Reduction

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Tuesday 18th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

The noble Lord, Lord Barnett, called it a “dastardly charge”; I am sure that I would not characterise it quite like that. The fact is that my right honourable friend the Chancellor is hiding nothing. It is simply that, as I have explained, under the measure that has been used since 1998 for measuring the deficit, privatisation sales—the sales of shares in companies—do not rank against the deficit, so my right honourable friend can have nothing up his sleeve.

However, it is important that the Government exercise stewardship over all their assets, fixed and otherwise, so that we have an ambitious programme to raise proceeds—they may not all count for deficit reduction—which will affect the debt position. That chimes in with the modernisation of government. Of course, among the most valuable assets the Government have are the shares in the banks which were nationalised. We want to ensure that the taxpayer gets a good return on those shares.

[Lord Peston]

This is a difficult Question, and I am pleased to hear the Minister say that he wants the taxpayer to get a good return on the relevant assets; in other words, they will not be sold at less than their value to the taxpayer. Can the Minister say where in the Government’s accounts the proceeds of these sales will appear? I have looked myself and I cannot find anywhere where I would put them, but then I am not an expert.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, they will and do appear in tables in the Office for Budget Responsibility’s forecasts and records of sales. For example, the sales of fixed assets are dealt with in table 2.2, and the sales of financial assets when they come in are—

The noble Lord, Lord Peston, shakes his head, but I am looking at page 21 of the OBR’s Budget 2010 supplementary material which has tables. There are not yet financial sale numbers to go in for future years, but table 2.2 is there on page 21.

Bankruptcy

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Tuesday 7th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, as the Minister does not, under any circumstances, believe in answering questions put to him, can I ask him whether he has looked at the latest report of the Office for Budget Responsibility, whose forecasts for the next five years—which is how long this Government are insisting that they are going to stay—state that the balance of payments will be in deficit for every one of those five years? That means that our net assets will decline overseas by the amount we have to borrow to finance that deficit. What a nerve the Minister has to talk about bankruptcy in connection with the previous Government, when the balance of payments forecasts show that if anyone is making us head for bankruptcy—although I do not actually believe that we are—it is the present Government?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, when the Government came into office, we had been put on negative credit watch by one of the main rating agencies, unprecedented for the UK, and were paying interest of £120 million a day. The first or second largest holder of bonds in the world had talked of the UK as a “must to avoid” and described the UK’s gilts as,

“resting on a bed of nitroglycerine”.

The Government have restored confidence in our public finances by setting out a clear plan to restore the budget to balance and that is what enables us to borrow what we need to borrow on the international markets on reasonable terms.

Budget Responsibility and National Audit Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Monday 6th December 2010 Grand Committee

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I, too, am a bit puzzled as to why we are discussing only half the linked story, but my noble friend has it right when she talks about the defective nature of this amendment in taking out the requirement for an assessment of the accuracy of fiscal and economic forecasts. No doubt we shall come to the question of whether there is any other way of doing it later, when I might not be quite so keen on what she has to say. However, I certainly agree with her that it would be inappropriate to remove the requirement for an assessment of the accuracy of the forecasts. It is an important requirement that there should be such an assessment—

[Lord Peston]

May I interrupt the noble Lord? I am totally puzzled now. The noble Lord uses the word “requirement”. The people who comprise the OBR will not be idiots. They are going to be experts and qualified economists. Quite independent of what is in this Bill, if the forecasting is not working well, they will ask themselves why they got it wrong. There is no need for a requirement here unless you assume that a bunch of morons is going to be appointed to the OBR. If you get a forecast wrong, you immediately ask why you got it wrong. Why is there a need for a requirement to do something that would be a normal way of working?

[Baroness Noakes]

I suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Peston, that it is not so much the requirement to do the assessment as the requirement to publish it that is important.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to my noble friend for delivering my script for me. Perhaps I should declare my interest as a fellow of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales. There is certainly a technical use of the word “audit” that we chartered accountants and other accountants are used to using. As my noble friend Lady Noakes has explained, my right honourable friend was using a more general use of the term. The Chancellor used the phrase in the very specific context of,

“audited all the annually managed expenditure savings”.—[Official Report, Commons, 20/10/10; col. 949.]

To be clear, there is no question of the OBR doing an audit in the sense used by, say, the National Audit Office. In the context in which my right honourable friend used the word “audit”, it is completely clear that he was talking about scrutiny of those particular savings, as set out in the terms of reference given to the OBR when it scrutinised the Government’s policy costings. If the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, wants clarity on the meaning of the word, the terms of reference are clear.

In answer to the questions about the number of contacts between the OBR and the Treasury, that information is now published on its website. Between 4 October and 29 November 2010, there are seven recorded contacts: four e-mails, two meetings and one transmission of a hard-copy document. As I say, all those details are on the OBR’s website for people to look at.

The clarity over the OBR’s role is provided for through the provisions in the Bill and the charter. There is no intention for the OBR to do an audit in the technical sense of the word. I hope that it has been useful to have had this short discussion to clarify that that is indeed the situation and, having agreed that, I do not think that we need to clutter up the Bill in the way that the amendment proposes. On the basis that it is not strictly necessary, I ask the noble Lord if he might withdraw it.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, when it suits him, the noble Lord is keen on the casual use of language. Can I take it that “audit” does not now mean audit? Does it mean to scrutinise? Can we see the documentation corresponding to that scrutiny? Is it available?

[Lord Sassoon]

Indeed, my Lords, as I said, the form of the scrutiny is set out in the terms of reference given to the Office for Budget Responsibility for its review of the spending review and were published as part of the spending review documentation on the Treasury website. If it would help the noble Lord, I can read out the key paragraph of the terms of reference for the Office for Budget Responsibility. Paragraph 4, entitled “Economic and fiscal forecasts”, states:

“The Spending Review will allocate spending between departmental expenditure and annually managed expenditure within the envelope set at the June Budget. As part of the Spending Review, and consistent with the approach taken in the June Budget, the OBR will provide independent scrutiny of the Government’s estimated costing of annually managed expenditure (AME) policies”.

[Lord Peston]

I am sorry, but I would really like my question to be answered. I do not want to know the form; I want to see the actual scrutiny. Nothing in the big document includes that scrutiny. The Chancellor claimed, using the Minister’s words, that the OBR had scrutinised all these expenditure savings. I should like to see the document which says, “We looked at this and this is our analysis”. I want to see the scrutiny; I do not want to know how the office did it. I want to know that it was actually done. I have not the faintest idea of where to look for this scrutiny, but it is not in the big document—which is what I call it because I cannot remember its name. Where is it?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the scrutiny is one of the things that underpin what the noble Lord calls “the big document”. If the OBR had any questions about the AME numbers, it would litter its document with commentary on it. However, it is quite clear from the terms of reference given to the office by the Treasury that it was required to and did scrutinise the AME numbers and was free to make any comments it felt like making on them.

[Lord Peston]

I would like to see where they are. I know the difference between form and substance, and I would like to see the substance.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, of course I tabled Amendment 29 before I had heard the Minister’s replies to many other amendments. What he emphasised most was the independence of the OBR and its ability to make up its own mind what it wants to do. I assume therefore that when I say it should be able to do this, he will get up and say that it can if it wants to. I do not think that I need to detain the Committee much longer, but I would like to hear the Minister confirm that the OBR can do what it wants. I beg to move.

[Lord Sassoon]

I shall try to be almost as brief. I agree absolutely that the OBR should have access to external expertise and that there should be appropriate transparency around this. The design of the OBR will allow it to have access to external expertise as it sees fit, and indeed the office held a range of discussions prior to producing the recent forecast. The office may convene advisory panels if it thinks that that sort of external perspective would be of help.

My only difficulty with the amendment is that the office would be required to publish the evidence taken from expert witnesses. I think that it should be for the OBR to determine what it thinks it is appropriate to publish. That is because we do not want to constrain freedom of exchange. The office has a general statutory duty to act transparently, within which context obviously it will think carefully about what it should publish. Further, although I hope that it will not be necessary, there is of course the backstop of the Freedom of Information Act to which the OBR is subject. I think we should leave it to the discretion of the OBR to choose to publish evidence from such experts as it consults.

I hope that my response has given the noble Lord, Lord Peston, the confirmation that he was seeking, and that he will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Peston]

I thank the Minister very much for that answer. I, too, am making the assumption that the OBR will read our debates and therefore know what we think. Subject to that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, perhaps I might go back to confirming what we are seeking to do and not to do in the Bill. We have discussed all these related issues at some length. The noble Lord, Lord Burns, has got it pretty much spot on in terms of what we are trying to achieve, but for the avoidance of doubt I shall restate it.

With regard to the core forecasting remit, the intention is that the OBR should consider government policies and not other policies. To take the point made the other day by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, we want to ensure that the OBR can take account of external shocks, for example, so in technical drafting terms his amendment would not quite work as it focuses narrowly on policy. We agree, anyway, that it is the Government’s policies and not other policies that need to be considered. We must not leave out the fact that, in doing the forecasts, the OBR can look at scenarios and at other issues.

With regard to the noble Lord’s specific question about an EU-related policy, either it has been adopted by the UK Government and is therefore included in government policies or it is not. Either the EU policy example has been adopted as policy in the UK or it has not, therefore it falls accordingly. That would get picked up, so that much is clear. Equally, it is the clear intention that the OBR should not be drawn into costing alternative policies, whether they are opposition policies or just other scenarios or partial packages of policies. That is what is intended by the construct in the Bill, and part of it is clarified by paragraph 4.12 in the draft charter.

Even though I am convinced that the Bill achieves what most, if not all, of us are trying to achieve in these various respects, I take to heart the fact that we have spent a lot of time going around the interaction of Clauses 4 and 5(3) and, to an extent, the relationship with Clause 1. Notwithstanding the fact that I think that the Bill works as drafted, I am listening carefully to all the points being made. I will go away and see whether anything can be done to make it even clearer in the Bill what the intentions are. However, it is difficult drafting. We should certainly not take out Clause 5(3) in its entirety, because, as the noble Lord, Lord Burns, pointed out, we want to make sure not only that the forecasts are concentrated on the right thing but that the OBR is not drawn into other political controversies.

[Lord Peston]

Can the noble Lord give one clarification on that? We all agree that, if we are going to have an OBR, we must keep it out of political controversy, but do the “government policies” to which he referred include the behaviour of the Monetary Policy Committee of the Bank of England?

[Lord Sassoon]

When I talk about government policies, I mean government policies. What assumptions the OBR makes about monetary conditions, interest rates and so on touches on an issue about which my noble friend Lord Higgins asked earlier. I have undertaken to relay his request to see whether Mr Chote wants to say any more about how the OBR considers monetary policy issues. Certainly, while I said that the OBR should consider government policies, there are lots of other things that it needs to consider. It is clear that it is making assumptions about interest rates and so on that are taken broadly from what the Bank of England lays out.

[Lord Peston]

Since we are putting this on the statute book, is it the case that the OBR would not be offending the law, as it will eventually be, by paying great attention to what the Monetary Policy Committee of the Bank of England was up to? I merely want some reassurance on that. There is no way in which it can do any forecasting unless it does that.

[Lord Sassoon]

I assume that in all normal circumstances it will look intently at the forecasts of the MPC about future inflation and interest rate prospects.

Budget Responsibility and National Audit Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Wednesday 1st December 2010 Grand Committee

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, will the Minister clarify one or two of his remarks? I got a bit lost. I think I am right that he is now saying that the real distinction is exec versus non-exec, not expert versus non-expert, so we have moved on from the Explanatory Notes on those clauses to something different. Do I therefore understand that the non-execs could include people who would be regarded as experts?

My second question, and I blame myself for this as I did not emphasise it in my opening remarks, concerns the rubric in the Bill, “two or more”. I meant to ask: what is the point of “or more”? Two seems a lot. Why have the Government not been able to make up their mind what they think the right number is? I was very puzzled by that. I would have thought that two, full stop, would be enough. Certainly, if I were doing this, I would say, “If we’re going to have to have these people, a couple of them are fine”, but I do not see where the “or more” comes in, unless we go along with my noble friend Lord Eatwell that the two that we have turn out not to be able to make tea and we need a third one for that purpose.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, in answer to the first question, to be clear again, it is certainly the case that there is a group which is executive and expert and then there is a second group, described at the moment in the Bill as “non-expert”, which is also non-executive. That second group could be experts, there is nothing to rule that out, but the point is that they do not have to be experts; they should, however, be sufficiently independently minded, supportive and challenging of the executive expert members.

We have put in “two or more” because at the moment we think that the remit of the OBR and the construct should be perfectly sufficient and workable for robust government arrangements. That is the minimum number. To have one non-exec would put that individual in an impossible position; two gets you to the minimum. If the OBR’s remit were somehow to develop in an unanticipated way, it might be appropriate to modestly expand the number of non-exec non-experts, but that is not the intention at the moment.

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[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am quite puzzled by this amendment because we are moving into unusual territory. We believe it absolutely right for the Treasury Committee to have a veto over the role of the chairman, but it is almost unprecedented for Parliament or parliamentary committees to have such roles at all, let alone over non-executive members. One of very few other appointments that is subject to a parliamentary veto of the sort provided for in this Bill is that of the Comptroller and Auditor-General.

In terms of the non-executives, I do not share the analysis of the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, in terms of expertise. I shall come back to the other constitutionally substantive point, which is that we are not talking about experts in this area in any sense but about those who will bring independence of mind and who will challenge and support. That is potentially a much wider field of candidates. So I think that such appointments would rest on the relatively narrow point about what the Treasury could bring to bear, and actually I do not think that it would have anything special to bring to this. The wider point to be made here is that we would be moving into new and extraordinarily different territory. To take one broadly similar example, the non-executive members of the board of the UK Statistics Authority are appointed by the Minister for the Cabinet Office after consulting with the chair of the UK Statistics Authority. So we are following a perfectly respectable precedent.

In answer to the question of why the names that are being considered for the non-expert, non-executive role should be nominated by the OBR, again we want to strike a balance between appointment by the responsible Minister, who is the Chancellor, while not leaving it entirely to the Chancellor and the Treasury to come up with names. So again there is a perfectly well precedented route by which the authority concerned has a role in identifying candidates. That would include the Debt Management Office, the Crown Estate Office, the museums, the Natural Environment Research Council—I could go on.

Our suggestion in the Bill for how this should work is well-worn territory; there is nothing so different about the role of these non-execs. We have already had some questions about how substantive the role is, but there is nothing that takes the roles of these non-execs into remotely different territory from the role of non-execs in a lot of other well functioning bodies in the broader public sector, and we have broadly followed the appointment processes in those other areas. I am genuinely puzzled by this amendment and do not believe that it would add anything to the strength of the OBR governance arrangements.

[Lord Peston]

Perhaps I may indicate one thought that has occurred to me, which the Minister might like to reflect on. It follows on from what my noble friend Lord Eatwell said: namely, that there is an enormous benefit to be gained if these people have been scrutinised. I do not believe that in practice it would occur very often, if at all, that the names brought forward were rejected, but a committee—which, one hopes, did not operate politically, such as the Treasury Select Committee; certainly the Economic Affairs of your Lordships’ House has never done so—might say, “We approve of these people; they’re just the people we need to help safeguard the independence”, which my noble friend Lord Eatwell has emphasised in this context and before. It is worth reflecting on whether that would be helpful in a body that is very different from any body that I can think of that has been set up in my time to consider economic policy-making.

There is an old adage, “Never do anything for the first time”, but that is what this body is doing, whether we think that that is good or bad. I would have thought that the Minister might like to reflect at least a little on the point that there would be positive benefits from going down the path that my noble friend suggests.

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[Lord Peston]

Perhaps I may interrupt the noble Lord. Do his numbers include secretaries, computer programmers and all the ancillary staff, or is he talking about frontline staff? I do not see how the OBR has managed to do any work at all if it does not have lots of ancillary staff. Am I wrong in that?

[Lord Sassoon]

No, the noble Lord is right. The figure is the total number of staff.

[Lord Peston]

That figure of 13 includes secretaries, PAs and computer programmers?

[Lord Sassoon]

I cannot give a breakdown of exactly what they all do, although it would be possible to do so. The office no doubt buys in all sorts of services, but that is the total number of staff. As I said, I believe that Robert Chote intends that when the office is totally established there will be about 20 full-time staff. That is the number that he believes will be needed.

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[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I regard the question of sustainability as very important, so much so that although I will give a brief definition, because I have been asked what the Government mean by it, the critical issue for the OBR is concerned is that it should have an unfettered ability to look at sustainability in its broadest sense. I see that the noble Lord, Lord Peston, is nodding in agreement. The main objective here is not to constrain the OBR by giving it some sort of government laid-down definition of sustainability—there is more nodding, for which I am grateful—so while I can give my own overview definition of sustainability, that rather misses the point. Sustainability is part of the Treasury’s overall fiscal policy objectives, and to the Government, the sustainability of the public finances means putting them on a footing from which they can withstand shocks. It means keeping the deficit down so that debt does not spiral out of control. That is the fundamental of it, and it is the Treasury’s responsibility to make policy that supports sustainable public finances. That would be my overview of where we start.

The important point is that the OBR should take this matter away. It seems to have indicated that this is not an easy thing to do, and has already made that clear in its remarks both in the Pre-Budget forecast earlier this year and in the November document, the Economic and fiscal outlook. The OBR talks about what it has done, and critically it says that it will examine the issue of sustainability in detail in the fiscal sustainability report due next summer. That is at paragraph 5.25 on page 140 of the latest document. There is a section on sustainability and, indeed, a chapter on fiscal sustainability, including, on page 55 of the pre-Budget forecast document, lots of complicated equations that are beyond my grasp of economics. The OBR is already, quite rightly, beginning to analyse this. It recognises that a lot more analysis is to be done, including looking at the implications of a number of relevant government policy areas and reviews. It has set all that out. The critical thing here is that we make sure that the OBR is allowed to do that unfettered.

I would not necessarily want to constrain the OBR in the way suggested by Amendment 27. I am sympathetic to the principle, because I think that it absolutely has to explain the context of any work that it does on sustainability.

[Lord Peston]

The amendment is not meant to constrain the OBR; it simply asks it to tell us what it has in mind, which I think is what the Minister is saying.

[Lord Sassoon]

Indeed. The question is: what is appropriate to put in the legislation? There is an element here of risking treating the OBR inappropriately by telling it to do things that are clearly already self-evident to the OBR, in that it has already started to make significant comments on sustainability but is not rushing to final conclusions or making it the subject of a separate major piece of work. Therefore I am absolutely sympathetic to the principle but I am not sure that we should get into the game of writing down everything that the OBR is to do. The question this provokes in my mind is whether anything more should be said about this point in the charter. If there is any more to be said, it should be in the charter, and it is in that context that I should like to reflect on the substance of Amendment 27.

Amendment 18 makes an explicit link between the OBR and the Treasury’s objectives and mandate. I absolutely agree that it is important for the OBR to work in the context of these objectives and the mandate. Therefore, the purpose behind my noble friend’s amendment is entirely appropriate but I am a little concerned that, taken particularly with Amendment 30, it would not provide sufficient protection to keep the OBR out of what could become broader and politicised debates about policy scenarios.

I have thought about this carefully. I believe that the current design achieves a balance for the broad remit for the OBR with a sufficiently clear focus on government policy, and any amendment in this area would need to ensure that that careful balance was protected. I am worried that the amendment might challenge that. As I said, I believe that the substance of what is intended is already in the Bill. I very much took to heart the words of noble Lords on this area at Second Reading, including those of the noble Lord, Lord Burns, who noted the importance of the OBR not being drawn into wider political debates and not opining on alternative policy options. We have to keep the OBR focused on the fact that its forecast has to be of the economic policies that have been decided by the Government. However, we should not through inappropriate drafting risk taking the OBR into debates about the policy itself.

I shall continue to think carefully about whether we have got the balance right, but I hope my noble friend understands that we may risk drawing the OBR into something wider than I suspect he intends. I ask him to withdraw the amendment.

Budget Responsibility and National Audit Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Monday 29th November 2010 Grand Committee

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, since one or two noble Lords have joined us since the beginning of our sitting, perhaps I should repeat in essence what the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, said about why we started rather later than anticipated. As he said, a request from the Opposition that Grand Committee should begin after the Statement in the Chamber to allow them to prepare a response was agreed to through the usual channels. I apologise if not all noble Lords were aware of the change of plan. I think that the Chief Whip announced it to the whole House following Oral Questions, but perhaps not everybody was there.

Perhaps I should go back to the Government’s overall approach to the charter as background to Amendments 1 to 4, because they all touch on the addition of economic objectives.

[Lord Peston]

I may implicitly be criticising my noble friend Lord Eatwell in saying that I was not under the impression that the charter was part of what we are dealing with here. There is no specific amendment at this point about it. I want to talk about the charter, but I do not want to be forced to do it now just because it has been mentioned. Apart from the fact that the economics of intergenerational fairness, as my noble friend will know as well as I do, are so complex that I doubt that we would make much progress with the matter here, I am a little disturbed that we are suddenly going off in a direction that does not relate to the three amendments before us.

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[Lord Sassoon]

Yes, I am rejecting it. I am nervous of getting another lecture of the formalities of how we operate in Grand Committee. I had understood that we went through the formality of my doing the proposers of amendments the courtesy of formally asking them whether they will withdraw. If that is not the process, somebody will no doubt advise me. While the amendment has led to some interesting observations about the precise wording of the fiscal policy mandate and other aspects of the charter, in relation to the basic question of whether the Bill—and, by implication, the OBR’s work—should be opened up to a much wider commentary on the Government’s wider economic policy, I think absolutely not.

[Lord Peston]

There is no problem on the formalities. I am someone who has become a great advocate of Grand Committees as a way in which to deal with almost all our Bills, because I interpreted these Committees as a place where there could be a meeting of minds and where the Minister thought about things rather than writing down, as my noble friend Lord Myners said, “Reject, reject, reject”. If that is really what we are going to get, I do not know whether I personally will bother to waste my time with him. I regard it as outrageous if we are going to get rejection after rejection on the next amendment and the one after it. If that is going to be his style, because essentially that is what he has been told to do, why are we here?

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[Lord Sassoon]

I am only a new boy to this process, but I cannot believe that the noble Lord, Lord Peston, is beginning to suggest that because a Bill comes into Grand Committee we have to accept everything that is proposed in amendments. Yes, there may be a run of amendments that I and the Government see little merit in but, if I see merit in them, I shall respond accordingly. There does not seem any point in my saying in a wishy-washy way that it is all rather splendid and that I shall go away and think about it when I think that the amendments do not have merit.

[Lord Peston]

The noble Lord misses my point, which is to ask whether this is how he is going to treat all the amendments. He knows how he is going to treat them because the documentation is sitting behind him at this very minute. If that is what is going to happen, except on trivial amendments, I repeat my question: why are we here? We expect the Government to say, as a minimum, on some of the substantive amendments, “The arguments have been good and we must go away and think about them”. If we are not going to get that on anything substantive, I repeat: why are we here?

[Lord Sassoon]

We should not prolong this for too long—although I am happy to. If I feel, having heard the arguments, that I should take the amendments away or that I should accept them, I will say that. I will try to tell noble Lords what I believe, but I do not believe that these amendments have any merit. If there are amendments that I believe have merit, I will endeavour to make that abundantly clear.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sassoon]

I had not intended to go down this interesting byway, but there has been a singlehanded contribution by the noble Lord, Lord Myners, to a considerable increase in the number of Written Questions. I am very happy to give him the figures, although I do not have them to hand. The number of Questions for Written Answer that the Treasury has had to deal with in the past six months has been significantly above the figure that previous Ministers in the Treasury—principally the noble Lord himself—have had to face. Nevertheless, our record on answering Questions on time has improved dramatically, and I am very happy to supply the noble Lord with the data. I am conscious that we are scheduled to go on for only another 35 minutes, so perhaps we should go back to the Bill. However, with regard to answering Treasury Questions, I am happy to discuss the relative performance of this Parliament compared with the previous one if it would interest the noble Lord, although I shall do so on another occasion.

We want plenty of scrutiny in this House. Clauses 1(4), 1(6), 2(3) and 8(2)(b) all confirm that the OBR’s reports will be presented to the whole of Parliament, not just to another place. I will return specifically to the question of committee scrutiny, but it is important that the Economic Affairs Committee of your Lordships’ House should have, and will have, responsibility for whatever it thinks appropriate in considering economic and fiscal issues, including those that relate to the OBR. However, I do not believe that any of the amendments in this group are necessary to achieve that.

When it comes to the relatively narrow but important point on formal approval of the charter, perhaps this will not surprise noble Lords, but I very much lean towards the argument of my noble friend Lady Noakes, because, critically, the charter contains the fiscal mandate, which I believe should be properly considered in another place, rather than here.

[Lord Peston]

Is the noble Lord actually saying that the definitive view of the Clerk of the Parliaments is mistaken? The Clerk of the Parliaments states categorically that this House can look at fiscal matters; end of story. Why is the Minister taking the view that he is taking?

[Lord Sassoon]

I have made it completely clear that I think it is absolutely appropriate and important that this House considers fiscal and economic matters; and within the framework of the Bill there are opportunities to which I have specifically drawn attention, whether they are on the Floor of the House or in the Economic Affairs Committee. I am not for one minute challenging the ruling, but that is a different proposition from the specific proposition that this House should be responsible for voting on the adoption of the charter, which has within it a specific mandate that is in the province of another place. That does not cut across the absolute right that this House must have, whether in full session or in a committee, to consider fiscal matters, and I have drawn attention to four references in the Bill where that is made completely clear. That is different from the question of the approval of and voting on the charter, which contains the mandate. That would be straying into territory into which this House should not stray, as my noble friend Lady Noakes has said. The same principle held under the previous fiscal policy framework. I am not saying that just because something was held previously it should necessarily mean that it should always be right, but it is important in this context to remind ourselves that the code for fiscal stability, which the charter replaces, was approved and subject to amendment through a resolution in another place; and the fiscal targets set through the fiscal responsibility—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to my noble friend. Clearly, whether it is comments from the EAC or the comments that we have already had today—we will no doubt get more as we consider this Bill—as any comments come in on the charter, we will listen. We are very willing to take them in any form. I am not sure whether there is a way to accommodate another formal sequencing of comments, but we are absolutely open to comments and the charter has already been out there in public for a week.

It is also worth mentioning that the Delegated Powers Committee of your Lordships’ House has looked at all the delegated powers in the Bill, including the provisions for the charter to be approved in another place. It is perhaps worth reminding ourselves that that committee said:

“There is a very full memorandum for the Committee from H.M. Treasury which covers all of the delegated legislative powers and also some other powers of an administrative character. There is nothing in the Bill to which the Committee wishes to draw the attention of the House”.

That is an important and considered view from our guardians of delegated powers. I take the point from the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, that we should not lose any opportunity to get comments on the draft. I hope that I have reassured noble Lords that we absolutely see the Economic Affairs Committee and the House itself continuing to take a broad interest and to play a part in holding the Government and the OBR to account on this framework but, on this precise point, we must be careful not to stray over the line of constitutional propriety in a way that was certainly enshrined in the previous fiscal arrangements.

I should say one or two things about Amendment 8. The noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, described it as “cumbersome”. I was not going to use anything quite so direct but he goes to the heart of the point. Clearly, Parliament plays an important role in scrutinising the appointment of the chair of the OBR and other members of the BRC. I think that we have gone further, in that respect, than in any other appointment processes. However, whether it is because it is cumbersome or simply goes a step further than is necessary or appropriate, we believe that the Treasury Select Committee is the most appropriate means to exercise that scrutiny, given the nature of the body.

I do not want to labour the point, but we must remember that the chair and other members of the BRC may appear before the Economic Affairs Committee to discuss the work of the office. From a government perspective, I would welcome the scrutiny of the EAC, but I think it is right to preserve the role of the Treasury Select Committee on, specifically, the appointment.

This links with Amendment 35, the final amendment in this group, which requires that OBR members must appear before or provide evidence to the Treasury Select Committee or the Economic Affairs Committee of your Lordships’ House when requested. To restate the point, I agree with the principle of the amendment, but my understanding is that the power to summon individuals to give evidence to parliamentary committees is already in the Standing Orders and that is the way that we customarily leave it. This amendment would place in statute arrangements relating essentially to the internal procedure in the House, and I believe they are not matters that it would be appropriate or necessary to put in the Bill.

This group of amendments helpfully draws attention to the important role of this House in scrutinising critical aspects right across the OBR’s remit. That is important in the context of, particularly, the EAC’s ongoing role in broader economic policy-making. There is nothing in the Bill that constrains that, but we should not stray over the line in the one rather narrow element that some of these amendments relate to. It is not necessary to enshrine in the Bill matters that are customarily dealt with through the Standing Orders. I hope that I have sufficiently answered noble Lords’ concerns on these issues and explained how we think that the proper role of the House is very much enshrined and that the amendment will be withdrawn.

[Lord Peston]

On Amendment 35, is the Minister saying that he is absolutely confident that, within our normal arrangements, this amendment is not needed because it would be inconceivable for the office to refuse to appear before the Economic Affairs Committee of your Lordships’ House on the grounds that it was none of its business? Is he saying categorically that he knows that it could not refuse—to use my noble friend Lord Eatwell’s word—a reasonable request from the Economic Affairs Committee to appear before it? Is he absolutely certain that is so, because the amendment went down to get a reply that said it is not needed?

[Lord Sassoon]

My clear understanding is that the Standing Orders absolutely give all the necessary authority to committees of this House to summon members of the OBR, just as they summon other people to appear before them. I see no let or hindrance particular to the OBR.

Finance: Fiscal and Monetary Policy

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Tuesday 2nd November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, in the judgments that my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer made about how to achieve the huge and very necessary consolidation of the fiscal position here, by the end of the consolidation period, 77 per cent of the burden will have been taken by expenditure cuts and only 23 per cent by taxation, because it is precisely by not raising taxes and choking off growth that we will get the economy growing again in a balanced way. I am grateful to my noble friend for bringing our attention to that matter.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, the Minister rightly reminded us of the legislation under which the Monetary Policy Committee operates, which obliges it to hit an inflation target. There is also a “subject to” clause that has troubled all of us for years. Will the Minister interpret for us the Government’s present view of “subject to”? In particular, where do the Government stand on the restoration of full employment as an aim in our economy and as an achievement?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the Chancellor writes a very clear mandate letter to the Governor of the Bank of England for the Monetary Policy Committee to hit a target of 2 per cent for the 12-month rise in the CPI. Of course, that is the same target that was set under the previous Government. It is up to the governor and the MPC to interpret the Act in the appropriate way. As far as concerns employment, we must think about the OBR forecast which says that on the Government's policies laid out in the Budget, unemployment will fall and employment will rise in every period considered by the forecast.

Office for Budget Responsibility

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Tuesday 6th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

I thank my noble friend for reminding us that independence is at the core of what the OBR is about and key to its permanent design. The Chancellor will shortly receive the advice of Sir Alan Budd on the setting-up of the OBR and I am sure that Sir Alan will consider the various factors that my noble friend mentioned.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, did I hear the Minister right when he said, I think, that the fan charts that are to be found in the Budd committee’s report are best practice? In fact, as a matter of technical economics, they are not. Best practice is to publish confidence limits with appropriate probability distributions, which all the independent forecasters do—the Treasury is perfectly aware of that because it publishes their forecasts on the website. Given that the Government wish to save public expenditure, is not the best thing that can possibly happen the abolition of this body before it starts wasting even more money?

Health: Private Insurance

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Peston

Wednesday 30th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I welcome this Question from the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, and I appreciate the concerns that lie behind it. The process by which industry codes, which are not statutory, are enforced has a number of levels. First, the Association of British Insurers makes it a requirement of membership that codes are adhered to by all its members. Secondly, the Financial Services Authority has a process of confirmation of industry codes that are put in place. To be confirmed, those codes have to meet a series of guidelines as to form and content. The FSA takes account of non-compliance in its regulatory decisions. Furthermore, the ombudsman is required by the FOS rules to take industry guidance into account. Therefore, broadly speaking, if a complaint is brought and the code has not been adhered to, there should be a finding in favour of the complainant. I very much regret the situation that the noble Lord described, but it should be picked up if the processes are properly followed.

[Lord Peston]

Is the Minister aware that his Answer and the Question reinforce the views of many of us about the great wonder of our National Health Service? This sort of thing does not happen in the National Health Service, and could not possibly happen unless the Government, under their present rather right-wing policies, change it. Is not the answer to this for people not to be fooled by thinking that they can opt out of problems by going private? The best thing they can do is to go to our NHS and support it solidly.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I think that the scope of the Question is rather specific. It is about industry codes of practice and the adherence of private health insurance companies to those codes of practice. The noble Lord raises important issues, but they are rather outside the scope of the Question.