Finance: Peer-to-Peer Lending

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 19th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, these are critical issues. There is a fundamental trade-off between stability in the system, which clearly has to improve over what it was before the financial crisis, and the need to boost growth. The fact that the Financial Policy Committee at the Bank of England is up and running in shadow mode and is identifying the counter-cyclical tools that it will need is a very important new step in this area. The Funding for Lending scheme is, I believe, the most important sign of what can be done with the strength of the Government’s balance sheet. Lower funding costs are already coming in to wholesale bank funding, declining by over 100 basis points since June. One indication of the impact on consumers is that quoted rates on fixed-rate mortgages have declined by 0.3 percentage points since the Funding for Lending scheme has come in. However, I certainly agree that we need to be very attentive to this issue.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, yesterday the Opposition expressed their best wishes to the noble Lord on leaving the Front Bench. In the Treasury team, that Motion was carried by seven votes to one, and I am not quite sure whether I should confess to being the one. Nevertheless, I have enjoyed the cross-Dispatch Box jousting that we have had from time to time and I appreciate the Minister’s skill in replying—often, of course, defending the indefensible. Will he, on this occasion, give us real hope for the future? There is a possibility of very rapid growth of peer-to-peer lending. Is he certain that what will be in place is rigorous regulation of this developing sector? We obviously failed with regard to the banks in the past and there are a lot of anxieties about the new scheme now. This one presents particular challenges and I would like some reassurance from the Minister.

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham. I would not want, on an occasion like this, to point out that the previous Government did not take any policy on p-to-p lending, but it was very small then. These lenders only got into business in 2005. The critical thing is that now, having handed the challenge and the responsibility to the FCA, we will see a draft plan very soon, certainly in the first quarter of the new year, as to what the framework for regulation will be. Draft rules will come in later in the year and, as I said earlier, it is very important that we get the balance right in providing an appropriate degree of regulation, not something that kills off what is likely to be a very fast-growing and important area of activity.

Banking: National Savings & Investments

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 5th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, this raises many complex issues. I would simply say that a critical part of NS&I’s remit is to raise money for the Government on value-for-money terms. Secondly, I can assure the House that the Government are certainly not going to get into, in any way, unfairly competing in the savings market, which needs to be a vibrant, fair and free competitive market.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister has now indicated the conflict through two answers. He has just said that the role of NS&I is to raise money for the Government, and we all know its excellent reputation—but he also said earlier that it is there to look after the interests of savers, who are consistently getting a rate of return below the rate of inflation. How can that be fair?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, what is fair is that the Government have very considerable concern about savers. I have mentioned the ISA annual limit going up by inflation in April; consulting on whether AIM shares should be eligible to be in ISAs; introducing simple financial products; setting up the Money Advice Service; having a generous new single-tier pension; and raising the cap today on pension draw-downs from 100% to 120%. The Government take the interests of savers very seriously.

Child Benefit

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 30th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, what we are talking about principally this afternoon is the restriction of child benefit. The restriction starts to come in only where one taxpayer in the family is earning more than £50,000. In those circumstances, clearly there will generally be a capability for dealing with the forms. I went on to the website this morning and while I could be highly critical of some of HMRC’s forms, I found that the guidance on the changes to child benefit was remarkably clear and easy.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Institute for Fiscal Studies has indicated that under present government welfare cuts 80,000 children each year will be reduced to poverty. Have the Government ambitions to increase that number?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the changes to child benefit affect only the 15% of highest earning families in this country. This Government believe that those with the broadest shoulders should share the pain of the massive deficit consolidation and reduction programme that we inherited from the previous Government. That is what we will continue to do.

EU: UK Net Contributions

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 24th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

I would love to see that happen. Of course, I cannot give any assurances about how it will play out.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, of course we agree that the European budget needs to be tightly controlled and, if possible, redirected towards jobs and growth. We are not too confident that this Government will produce the same priorities. However, can the Minister confirm that the Prime Minister will be calling on his many friends among the leaders in Europe in this negotiation?

[Lord Sassoon]

What I can confirm is that the UK’s priorities for expenditure include the following: substantial cuts to the common agricultural policy. However, I agree with the noble Lord that priorities for the UK include growth and competitiveness, climate change and external action. I am not going to speculate on how the negotiations will play out.

Taxation: International Companies

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 23rd October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, a series of measures has been agreed internationally through the OECD over many years. The fiscal affairs committee of the OECD is having a new look at this, and this work was endorsed by the G20 at the Los Cabos meeting in June, to get those rules into a fit state for the 21st century. They are the rules that govern the relationships between countries and the base on which all companies should operate their tax regimes, but they need to be modernised.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, in responding to an earlier question, the Minister said that there was much work to be done in this area. Who is to do it? What is the point of the Government cutting Inland Revenue staff when there is so much work to be done? Staff concerned with revenue collection can collect 30 or 100 times the annual salary they receive.

[Lord Sassoon]

I am very grateful, as I often am, for the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, because it enables me to tell the House, as I have done before, that £900 million has been reinvested in the compliance activities of HMRC precisely because we need to do more work to attack avoidance, evasion and criminal attacks on the tax system. Compliance revenue has more than doubled in six years so that by 2014-15 an additional £7 billion per annum will be coming in. The noble Lord’s concerns are quite right, and this Government are very actively on the case.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 17th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Flight]

My Lords, I want briefly to support the Government’s position here. I am one of the few people still around who participated in the lifeboat back in 1974 in the wake of the secondary banking crisis then. Although I felt that the Bank of England had been less than perfect in allowing that crisis to develop, the way in which it handled it was first class. It did not cost the taxpayer a penny and the lifeboat got to grips and sorted out the various banks that were, in essence, bust.

The fears that I expressed in the other place at the time of the FiSMA about the tripartite agreement were exactly what transpired. The three parties failed to reach agreement, as I think is now widely recognised and known, and it is a miracle that the banking system did not actually collapse because it was dangerously close to doing so. In a banking crisis which is not about, if you like, conduct and how customers are treated, but for whatever reason is about the potential pack of cards implosion of the banking system, it is crucial that it is the banking regulator entity—in essence the Bank of England in consultation with the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the day—that has clear authority to get on and take the necessary measures promptly.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I am not sure that we are disputing that last point. We are arguing that there may be a crisis in which the contribution of the FCA would be of considerable importance. Perhaps the Minister will answer this point for the clarification of the Committee and all those interested in this matter. We are not quite clear why the other regulator, the PRA, operates in a different fashion from the FCA with regard to the consultation on the memorandum. I should like the noble Lord at least to identify that factor.

[Lord Sassoon]

I am not quite sure I have understood what clarification the noble Lord is asking for. The simple fact is that we are talking about a memorandum to do with crisis management. Crisis management is to be led by the Bank of England under the clear responsibilities that we have in this framework and therefore the memorandum is focused entirely on matters where the responsibility lies between the Bank and the Treasury in so far as public money is at risk. We are talking about matters where essentially the FCA is an ancillary party because dealing with crisis management is not the FCA’s principal role. It has a lot of other responsibilities in the new system, but crisis management is not one of them. That entirely drives the logic behind who is and who is not party to the MoU. I do not know whether that helps the noble Lord.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

The Minister is always helpful, if not always totally convincing. We shall think further about this matter and the answers he has given today. For the time being, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, again I apologise to the Committee that this amendment is also a casualty of the fact that we ought to have tabled and discussed it the other evening in the context of Clause 54, but in fact we failed to do so. I would therefore ask the Committee to show a degree of patience and bear in mind the content of Clause 54 which, as the Minister has already identified, is absolutely critical to this part of the Bill. We want to make our argument as it relates to Clause 61 because that is where the amendment is actually located. However, Clause 54, which sets out the circumstances under which a decision is made to notify the Treasury about the need for financial assistance to address a risk to public funds, is the background to the amendment.

The amendment seeks to arrive at a clearer definition of what “material risk” means. We have already had one shot at this issue today and I think we made a modicum of progress, but as my noble friend Lord Peston indicated, if we are not careful we might become engaged in a somewhat philosophical debate about the definition of risk. However, the term “material risk” appears in the Bill and therefore we ought to be as clear as we possibly can about what the term means. In the context of the memorandum of understanding, this amendment states that the memorandum needs to make provision for what the Bank and the Treasury regard as material risk. The amendment requires the definition to include risks that significantly impact on the safety and soundness of PRA-authorised persons and factors that put at risk relevant markets functioning well.

These are specifically and deliberately definitions which directly refer to the roles and objectives of the PRA and the FCA respectively. This is because the Opposition argue that the Bill and the draft memorandum are too vague about the role of the FCA and PRA in circumstances of material risk to public funds. I do not think that our discussion earlier this afternoon cleared this matter up. That is why we are once again giving the Minister the opportunity of being clearer about the matter, perhaps. We want to ensure that the Bank—the governor—will involve the FCA and PRA in these matters. The importance of defining material risk, and concerns that the Bill currently falls short on this, was raised by the committee convened to look at the draft legislation. That pre-legislative committee argued that it should be subject to parliamentary approval and should not be left to the memorandum of understanding.

We have parliamentary colleagues who have a real anxiety about this matter. I do not think that the discussions we have had thus far this afternoon allay all those anxieties. However, the Minister may be able to have a better shot at it a second time. I beg to move.

[Lord Sassoon]

Well, I will have another shot at it, but I do not suppose the schoolmaster opposite will necessarily mark me any better, however well I do. I am under no illusions. Nevertheless, I take this amendment suitably seriously. I will go through the arguments in the expectation that perhaps all will become clear and I will get an alpha plus for this one.

Amendment 190ZEB would link the threshold of the “public funds notification” detailed in Clause 54 to risks that could significantly impact the safety and soundness of PRA-authorised persons or undermine the orderly operation of financial markets.

This amendment would make the public funds trigger confusing, and less, rather than more, effective. I should explain why. The phrase “public funds notification” set out in Clause 54, which is a notification that public funds could be at risk, is precisely that. It is not a notification that there are circumstances in the financial sector that threaten the PRA or FCA’s objective.

The PRA will be responsible for prudential regulation of a large number of small deposit-takers and insurers, many of which can and do fail without any risk to public funds. Requiring the Bank to make a formal notification to the Treasury under Clause 54 every time and any time any of these institutions got into trouble could lead to a relatively large number of notifications where there was in fact no risk to public funds.

Similarly, adding a reference to the FCA’s objective to the definition of material risk in this way would broaden the grounds on which the duty to notify would be triggered to risks which do not involve public money. It would mean that the notification under Clause 54 was not in fact a public funds notification at all. Crucially, this would mean that the Treasury’s power of direction in Clause 57, which is available where there is a live public funds notification, would be available when there is no risk to public funds. I do not know whether that is what was intended here but I hope that the noble Lord would agree that that is not what should be achieved. This matters because decisions to use public funds to resolve a financial crisis are for the Government to take, usually the Chancellor personally. As such, the purpose of Clause 54 is to ensure that the Treasury is always informed when there is a material risk to public funds, and not for other, wider purposes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

This amendment furthers the points that my noble friend and I have already made this afternoon about widening the range of individuals who should be in a position to contribute their knowledge, experience and advice to a crisis management scenario. We remain concerned that the Government have narrowed the point of action in crisis management. I listened very carefully to what the Minister said about the advantages of that narrowness and fully understand it, but I am still unconvinced that the Government have the Bill right about who should contribute fully to the management of what we all recognise is an issue of very great significance to the nation.

The memorandum of understanding on crisis management must, according to the Bill, make provision about obtaining and sharing information. This amendment seeks to facilitate this requirement and enhance the Bill. We need to ensure that certain key personnel can consult directly with the Treasury. The amendment develops our clearly argued concern that reference in the legislation to “the Bank” is too often taken to mean, or certainly risks being interpreted and acted on as meaning, simply the governor. We argue that the Bank’s deputy governors and the chief executive of the FCA should in the Bill be explicitly enabled to consult directly with the Treasury in such extreme circumstances.

We are worried about the concentration of power and feel that relevant alternative voices must be given the opportunity to be heard in the management of an issue of such great concern for the nation. This is particularly important if there proves to be a difference of opinion within the Bank. We know there are differences of opinion in the Bank on very important matters. One would expect that highly capable individuals with different experience would not always reach an identical opinion. If they did, they would not deserve the high position they occupy because they would be merely yes men or, in one or two cases, yes women.

Under the current formulation of financial regulation, the Chancellor can hear directly from the chairperson of the FSA. Under the new system and the memorandum of understanding, the Chancellor could hear from no one but the governor.

In the other place, the Minister said, “Well, of course, the Bank encompasses a range of people”. We are not convinced about that. We do not feel that the position is explicit enough. It does not address the point about including the FCA in the vital process of obtaining and sharing information. Nor does it indicate that, at a moment of great crisis for the nation, voices which might present a somewhat different view from that of the governor will have their position adequately reflected to the Chancellor. In every other aspect of the role that the Chancellor plays, he welcomes engaging with the opinions of a large section of the population, represented by Parliament. We are talking about crisis management here. It is an extremely important dimension. We all recognise the constraints; I am not sure that it is right that the legislation should so circumscribe those who advise the Chancellor. I beg to move.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the arguments represented by the amendment have been raised at virtually every stage of this Bill’s progress in both this House and another place. Indeed, my honourable friend the former Financial Secretary speculated that it seemed to reflect the Opposition’s obsession with dominant figures preventing any dissent emerging from within an organisation. That is probably more a reflection of where those concerns are coming from than anything to do with how the Bank of England operates. This is an extraordinary line with which the Opposition persist. I start by repeating what the Government have said on every previous occasion when this point was made. I agree entirely that frequent communication between Treasury Ministers and the senior executives of the central bank and financial regulators is important. However, there is absolutely no need to legislate to ensure that the deputy governors of the Bank and the chief executive of the FCA can speak directly to the Treasury. There is categorically nothing prohibiting that in the legislation or anywhere else. In fact, Treasury Ministers regularly meet the current deputy governor for financial stability and senior executives in the FSA. Senior Treasury officials maintain a virtually constant dialogue with the deputy governors and senior FSA figures via meetings, phone calls and e-mail. The same was true under the previous Government. I was a senior Treasury official in this area for three years. There were many things that did not work well under the previous regime—that is why we are changing it—but I know perfectly well from experience over a long period that official contact with deputy governors works extremely well. I see no reason why that should change in future. It has existed over a considerable number of years and is just a natural part of the way the system operates.

In a financial crisis where public funds were at risk, if one of the deputy governors or the CEO of the FCA felt that there was something that the Treasury should know about, they would of course be able to speak to the Treasury directly. They are senior figures who are well aware of their responsibilities and quite used to making their feelings felt. In the case of the deputy governors, as well as the CEO of the FSA and the future FCA, they will be in front of the Treasury Select Committee. It is extraordinary to suggest in some way that legislation should be required to allow those senior figures in the system to make their views clear, as they have always done in the past.

However, when it comes to the statutory duty to notify the Chancellor formally of a risk to public funds, this responsibility is rightly given to the Bank of England as an institution. In practice, I would expect that in most cases a notification would be made by the governor personally to the Chancellor, but there is no reason why one of the deputy governors cannot send it on behalf of the Bank. The key thing is that it must be a decision of the Bank. As the Government have made clear on multiple occasions, the Bank must come to a view internally about the best way to fulfil the duties and responsibilities that are placed on it, including the duty to notify the Chancellor of risks to public funds.

On the basis of that further explanation of the position, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw Amendment 190ZEF.

Economy: Deficit Reduction

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 15th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am not going to give a commentary on the IMF’s forecasts, or anybody else’s. We should wait until 5 December to see what the Office for Budget Responsibility has to say in its renewed forecasts.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, are we not experiencing a double-dip recession that is longer than any since the war, and is it not the case that forecasts are belied by the facts? The Government are borrowing £9.3 billion more in the first four months of this year than in the same period last year. How on earth can the Minister pretend that the present policy is working?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, we have only to wait until 25 October to learn the third-quarter growth number; then we will know the latest state of play in the economy. As to the question about levels of debt, I find it extraordinary that a Front-Bench opposition spokesman should give us a lecture on debt plans. Does the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, recognise the recent IFS analysis of Labour’s plans, which said that under the so-called Darling plan, total accumulated debt would be £201 billion higher than under the present Government’s plans? That level of debt would see the AAA rating gone for a very long time and would see almost £4,000 of debt per man, woman and child in this country added to the debt load we inherited. Is that what the noble Lord is advocating?

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 8th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I am grateful to both my noble friends who have spoken on this issue and very much agree with the arguments they presented. Amendment 149AB in my name merely seeks to take this matter one obvious stage further. My noble friends have put the emphasis on effective consultation so that the Treasury presents a position that is the result of informed judgment. However, the other part of informed judgment is that Parliament should reach a decision on what the Treasury has arrived at regarding such an important matter as the powers to amend Schedule 6 of the Financial Services and Markets Act. The Bill significantly changes the architecture, which is a phrase frequently used by the Minister. With our amendment, we are merely seeking assurance that, after effective consultation and deliberation by the Treasury, the orders are put before Parliament, whereby its views can be heard before anything comes into effect.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I shall try to assure the Committee that none of the amendments is necessary or appropriate. If the noble Lord, Lord Peston, will forgive me, I am not sure that we have a procedure for oral amendments. No doubt we shall have some interesting discussions about “must” and “may” later in this Committee session. Looking at this paragraph, in my opinion, x or y “will” be the case and, when written the other way, the word turns into “would”. If an opinion is that something will be the case, then “would” rather than “should” is entirely appropriate here. However, I have now fallen into the trap of getting into a debate on this non-amendment. Of course, if the noble Lord really insists, what can I do but give way?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, Amendment 153A relates to that part of the Bill which refers to passporting, where a UK-authorised firm may be eligible to carry out its permitted activities in any other EEA member state, subject, of course, to its fulfilment of the requirements under the scope of the relevant single market directive. We are concerned about consumer protection for firms operating in other EEA states which originate in this country. The amendment, which is quite clear and self-explanatory, requires either the FCA or the PRA to require banks to provide clear and prominent warnings to customers where deposits will not be covered by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme. Everyone will know the anxieties that have occurred as a result of the proliferation of a vast range of banking activities. This is a question of the basic operation of the bank elsewhere, and we think that the Bill should contain a fundamental identification of the obligation of banks so that customers know exactly where they stand with regard to any resources they may have committed to the banks. I beg to move.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I completely agree about the importance of such warnings and clarity about what compensation schemes apply to particular bank accounts, which is precisely why it is already covered in the FSA’s handbook. As the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, may not be aware, section “Comp 16” of the FSA handbook requires precisely what the noble Lord requires. Firms from the EEA passporting into the UK are required to inform customers that they are covered by their home state’s scheme. Firms from outside the EEA are required to be separately authorised in the UK, so that they are covered by the FSCS. We completely agree on the importance of this and of raising consumer awareness of it. Again, lots of good stuff went on in many areas during the summer and this is another one. If the noble Lord and the Committee generally want to look at the press release, it was put out on 31 August and sets out details of the FSCS awareness campaign. The notes to editors in it make clear the different health warnings that have to be put down for UK branches of EEA banks and the precise form of words. I do not happen to bank with one of those banks; I bank with a British bank which now adds an extra page—it is not great for the environment, but the extra page sets out the details of the coverage of the FSCS and EEA banks are now required to do something similar.

The noble Lord makes a very good point, but I believe that we should leave it to the FSCS and the regulators to do what they are already doing, rather than writing inflexible requirements into legislation. The advantage of the current approach, as I am sure he will acknowledge, is that the regulator and FSCS can adapt their approach over time, but it is a useful matter for us to have spent four minutes on and I hope that the noble Lord is able to withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sassoon]

Again, my noble friend is ahead of me and I shall not make that point—I am addressing some very narrow and specific matters—but he is completely right that we could debate whether the interventions already being made are appropriate. He may say that that they are excessive; I would say, “Well, that is for the FSA and there are important issues”. But, yes, the FSA is very active in this area, specifically on remuneration consultants.

The suggestion that remuneration consultants be appointed by shareholders was looked at in the consultation but it was not widely supported. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, did not spot it, but the proposal has been the subject not only of debate in this House in the past but of the recent consultation. It was not widely supported because of the costs associated with the appointment process and issues to be resolved about the remit and the flexibility of the proposal to accommodate new work. The benefits of the requirement would be uncertain.

However, a majority of respondents to the consultation said that more transparency over the use of remuneration consultants would be beneficial. Suggestions of areas for more transparency included appointment processes, advice provided, fees paid and management of conflicts of interests. The Department for Business is looking at ways in which it can improve transparency in the use of remuneration consultants by companies.

I am grateful to the noble Lord for raising these important issues, which are being taken forward in a wider context. The FCA will have all the powers that it needs to act in this area, as it does already—and as my noble friend pointed out—the FSA. I hope that, on the basis of that information, the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

Of course I shall withdraw the amendment, but not because the noble Lord, Lord Flight, has persuaded me that the FSA has been so much a busybody, so interfering and so effective that remuneration has never been an issue in the financial services. That argument runs counter to the facts on remuneration on which the nation as a whole has a firm grip.

I of course accept the chiding of the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, that the Bill concerns only the financial services sector. I also hear from the Minister that it is extremely dangerous to take the first step because you might then stumble into the second step, and I am not sure that the Government are that committed to any significant strides forward on that at the present time. However, if the Minister is able to assure me that the development of ideas in the Department for Business is such that we are going to see legislation which gives some effect to the principles that I have adumbrated this evening and which helps to resolve what for the nation looks an outstanding scandal with regard to the issues of distribution of resources in our society, I go home with a little consolation and withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the Government’s view is that, in general, decisions about advisory arrangements and consultancy fees are commercial decisions for firms themselves. However, the regulators could in fact already make the rules described in this amendment under the general rule-making power if they judged that was an appropriate way to advance their objectives. For example, if the PRA was satisfied that there was a problem with advisers being incentivised to advise in favour of high-risk mergers and acquisitions in a way that threatened the safety and soundness of PRA-authorised persons, it could step in to make rules to regulate the appointment of advisers.

Respecting the brevity with which this amendment was introduced, I should probably leave it at those two key reasons why we believe that it is redundant. I ask the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, to consider withdrawing it.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I will certainly withdraw the amendment, having benefited from the clarity of the Minister’s reply—although I cannot say that I agreed with it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I am once again jettisoning a whole sheaf of notes in deference to the hour that we have reached. Amendment 173E, as part of the competition scrutiny provisions included in this Bill, calls for the Competition Commission, in consultation with the Treasury, to publish a report by the end of 2013 providing advice about the effect of regulating provision or practice,

“with reference to the Independent Commission on Banking recommendations on competition”.

The intention of the amendment is clear. It is to ensure that we make progress with regard to competition in banking, to show that we are in earnest about the necessity for early reforms and to use this Bill and the competition procedures within it to ensure that the maximum pressure is brought to bear on the competition authorities—and of course, behind them, the Government—to take as early action as is possible to remedy what the nation expects to be remedied in the light of the experience of the recent past. I beg to move.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, this amendment is identical to one tabled in Committee in another place, where my honourable friend the then Financial Secretary set out the reasons why the amendment is not appropriate. There are three such reasons. First, 2013 is the wrong time for a review of progress against the ICB recommendations. The ICB report itself recommended that the earliest that the market should be reviewed is in 2015, when it will be clearer whether its recommendations have led to improved market conditions. Secondly, there is no convincing reason why this review, if there is to be one, should be limited in scope to the ICB recommendations themselves. There may be new issues that the ICB report had not considered in depth and which it would be expedient to review at that time. Thirdly, we do not need this provision to ensure that the banking sector receives appropriate scrutiny from the competition authorities in the short term. The OFT, for example, launched a review of the personal current account market in July this year, which is likely to consider some of the issues covered by the ICB. The OFT has a power to refer markets to the Competition Commission at any time if it considers that a feature of the market,

“prevents, restricts or distorts competition … in the UK”.

I am very happy to give those reassurances and clarifications to the noble Lord in the hope that he will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, of course I will withdraw my amendment. However, the noble Lord should not anticipate that when a Minister speaks in the Commons, the Opposition automatically assume that he has always produced exactly the accurate response to our amendments, which we then accept, and that we are duly grateful for the greater wisdom of the Administration. Far from it—we often derive some considerable satisfaction from pressing them at some length on another occasion. However, on this occasion I have not got any length. I beg to withdraw the amendment.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 25th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I have little to add to this debate. I will keep my remarks very brief, but they are remarks of some cheer. I never thought that I would from this Dispatch Box congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Flight, on an amendment, but I very much approve of his Amendment 130B, and the precision with which he spoke, as well as the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, who has made such a contribution to our proceedings today.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I fear that again this is going to be relatively long one in which I will not be able to satisfy all my noble friends. I hope that my arguments will speak for themselves, but I have a suspicion that I might not quite be able to do it. Let me give it a go, because this is a series of important amendments.

Amendment 130B would add to the efficiency principle to which both regulators will be required to have regard when carrying out their general functions. The efficiency principle ensures that the regulators should have regard to using their resources in the most efficient and economic way. This is the principle in FiSMA at the moment, but we are going further. We have made the accounts of the FCA and the PRA subject to audit by the National Audit Office and provided that the NAO will be able to carry out value-for-money studies into the new regulators, as we discussed earlier today. This ensures an important line of accountability for the regulators to Parliament, through the Public Accounts Committee, in how they use public money.

If the regulators are required to consider minimising burdens on firms without any counterbalancing provision, they may be distracted from pursuing their focused objectives, particularly if one considers that minimising burdens on firms could be used as a rationale for inappropriate regulatory forbearance. Instead, the proportionality principle ensures that costs of individual regulation are balanced against the pursuit of regulatory objectives that will benefit the whole financial system and its consumers, by requiring the regulators to consider whether the burdens imposed on firms will be proportionate to the benefits brought about by that imposition.

Amendments 131 to 135, in the name of my noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, look to amend the proportionality principle to which both regulators will be required to have regard when carrying out their general functions.

Given the importance of the proportionality principle to the new structure, I am very glad to have the opportunity to discuss it further via this series of amendments. Amendments 131 and 135 would add to the proportionality principle a requirement on the regulators to consider whether an operational rule or operational requirement is proportionate to the benefits which result from that rule.

I can assure my noble friend that the existing reference to a burden or restriction already includes burdens or restrictions which relate to operational matters. So when the regulators make rules or impose requirements which require firms to alter the manner in which they operate their business, they will be required to have regard to the proportionality principle.

In fact, my honourable friend, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, tabled amendments to the Bill on Report in another place to ensure that the regulators will have to demonstrate how they have considered such matters when making rules.

Specifically, they will have to set out in the compatibility statements that they are required to publish when consulting on new rules, how they consider the proposals to be consistent with the principles of regulation in new Section 3B, including the proportionality principle. Amendments 131 and 135 pick up the important point that much of it comes in the operational matters but that it is picked up, and specifically that the requirements of the Bill were extended in another place, which makes Amendments 131 and 135—and Amendment 132, which is consequential—unnecessary.

Similarly, Amendment 133 seeks to add “firm” to the proportionality principle, so that the regulators will have to consider the burdens and restrictions placed on firms, adding to the current wording which uses the term “persons”. We may have touched on that before, but again, for the avoidance of doubt, if we have not mentioned that in Committee, I would like assure my noble friend that “person” is defined in the Interpretation Act 1978 as including,

“a body of persons corporate or unincorporate”.

Thus “person” includes individuals and other forms of legal person such as companies, partnerships and unincorporated association. So Amendment 133 is unnecessary.

Finally, Amendment 134 would add the words “reasonable and fair” to the proportionality principle. I agree that the regulators should be both reasonable and fair in the way that they pursue their objectives. I understand my noble friend’s concerns. He has taken us through a number of examples where he feels that the current regime is operating unfairly. I will certainly not detain the Committee by giving the other side of the case in each of those examples, but there is one. Part of what we are doing will work right through the structure only if there are changes of attitudes in lots of ways in which people go about their business.

I appreciate the argument that the best way of making people change their attitudes is to include certain things in the Bill. However, I know that the FSA and the PRA are reading these debates carefully and understand the spotlight that they are under. All these exhortations to them to do what, in this case, is my noble friend’s direction of travel, which I fully appreciate, are being listened to carefully. But the provision itself in Amendment 134 is unnecessary. The regulators have a duty under public law to act reasonably and can be challenged in the Upper Tribunal or by way of judicial review if they fail to discharge that duty, which would be broadly the case if the requirement were on the face of the Bill. The regulators are already under a duty to comply with the rules of natural justice—in other words to follow procedures and processes which are fair.

Amendments 144A and 147C would require the regulators to set out the costs and benefits of the regulation for which they are responsible in their annual reports. The regulators are already required to include in their annual reports a significant amount of information about how they have adopted a proportionate approach to delivering their objectives for the FCA, in new Schedule 1ZA(10) and for the PRA Schedule 1ZB(18). They must set out how they have complied with the regulatory principles, including the proportionality principle.

The financial services regulators are being brought within the statutory remit of the NAO, which I have said before, which will be able to carry out its own value-for-money studies. It would be excessive to add to this an annual requirement for the regulators to conduct their own cost-benefit analysis of the entirety of their regulatory activity.

Amendments 147D and 147E would require the PRA to hold an annual general meeting, as is required for the FCA. Amendments 144C to 144E would require the FCA to put in place arrangements to consult on its annual report, as is required for the PRA.

The Bill provides for the PRA and FCA to take different approaches to annual consultation on the effectiveness of their regulatory approach, and I welcome this opportunity to explain why that is the case. The provisions for an annual meeting under FiSMA provide a useful opportunity for stakeholders to make high-level comments on the FSA’s strategy and approach. Like the FSA, the FCA will supervise the conduct of all financial services firms. Given the wide range of issues under consideration, and the large number of firms, it is useful to have a single annual forum where stakeholders can voice their views. But as I said in discussing the last group, the PRA will be looking in much greater detail at a much smaller number of firms, and will be focused on complex issues of prudential risk. Given the PRA’s narrow focus and the complexity of the prudential issues it will tackle, a written consultation will be a more effective way of obtaining input from industry about how it has performed against its objectives. This will enable firms, consumer groups and others to put in detailed submissions addressing the PRA’s prudential approach in a level of detail that they would not be able to do in an annual meeting.

These are alternative, rather than complementary, mechanisms—horses for courses—and it does not seem necessary to subject both regulators to both mechanisms, and in doing so create additional cost.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 25th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I can be brief on this. As the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, has explained, the amendment seeks to add money-laundering and the financing of terrorism to the list of matters that are considered to constitute financial crime. First, I should make it clear that the FSA is already able to take action in both these areas because the definition here is broad and the list of matters is indicative and not exhaustive.

On the issue of money laundering specifically, financial crime is defined as including the offence of,

“handling the proceeds of crime”.

Money laundering is plainly part of that—it is one way in which a person can handle the proceeds of crime—so there is no need to list it separately in the Bill.

Turning to the next part of the amendment, it struck me as somewhat odd that the definition of financial crime did not list as major an element as terrorist financing. It seemed a strange omission. I did a bit of research and actually the definition, which is picked up in the draft Bill, stems from FiSMA, the previous Government’s Bill drafted in the late 1990s. I do not intend to be critical of the drafting of the previous Bill but it was drafted when terrorist financing was not as significant a concern as it has since become. I think it would be a good thing to include terrorist financing in the non-exhaustive list in this Bill. The world has moved on. I can confirm that we will consider whether and how to amend the Bill on Report to include terrorist finance in Section 1H.

I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, seemed to think that I would not pick up his excellent suggestion that we have a look at this again. I am very receptive to all good ideas from the Committee, big and small. I am very sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Peston, is not in his seat because this is one of many concessions and willingnesses to listen to arguments. I should make it clear that I cannot promise that I will continue in this end-of-term spirit for the rest of the day. Even though this will make no substantive changes to the duties and objectives of the FCA, I am grateful to the noble Lord for drawing it to the attention of the Committee and I would ask him to withdraw his amendment on the basis of the assurance I have given him.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, there is a character in “Cabaret” who expresses herself with “I am overwhelmed,” and that is the only phrase I can think of that is apposite at this moment. I am very glad that I am able to catch the Minister in his wonderfully benign mood. If he can just sustain it to the end of the day we can probably deliver this part of the Committee stage by 7 pm. He has given warning that not all amendments will commend themselves to this extent but I am glad that this one has. I am grateful for his response and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Taxation: Avoidance

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 25th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

I suspect that it would be very difficult to estimate the benefits of the non-dom tax regime. The principal benefit is that we derive an enormous amount of business and employment from the fact that this country is relatively open to non-doms, and those benefits we must retain while at the same time making the non-doms pay their fair share. That is why the annual charge of £50,000 has been introduced by this Government and why we are clamping down on areas such as avoidance of stamp duty. We need to strike the right balance.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the House will have noted that the noble Lord who supports UKIP is in favour of rich people not paying taxes against a background of the nation expecting the Government to pursue a vigorous drive to ensure that those liable for tax pay tax. The Minister indicated somewhat complacently that at 7.9% the deficit is lower than in some other advanced countries. But would he indicate whether that figure has been going down since this Government came into office and whether he anticipates a better figure two years from now?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the estimate of the tax gap in 2004-05 was 8.5% and it is now 7.9%. It still means that there is a tax gap of £35 billion, which HMRC will vigorously pursue. That is why only this week we made further announcements and consultations to make sure that aggressive tax schemes and the people who market them are targeted more effectively and why HMRC has reinvested £900 million of its spending in this spending round to target this area.

Finance: Loan Guarantee Scheme

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 24th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, we have come forward with a very positive financing package to help our infrastructure providers and our exporters. I believe that that will be welcomed very widely, as it has been, by business organisations. I hope that it will be welcomed by the devolved Administrations; as I have said, it extends to them.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, of course we welcome this scheme but, as my noble friend Lord Barnett indicated, this is in the context of the UK being in a double-dip or, as he suggested, triple-dip recession. We certainly are the only country in the G20 apart from Italy that is in recession. This modest scheme is welcome. Will the Minister explain, therefore, why the Government axed the similar scheme to support public/private partnerships put forward by the Labour Administration in 2009?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, again, I am happy to put the record straight. The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, may not have noticed that this package includes £6 billion worth of facility available to public/private partnership projects that are ready to start in the next 12 months.

Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Regulated Activities) (Amendment) Order 2012

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 17th July 2012 Grand Committee

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, these regulations were laid before the House on 14 June and implement changes to legislation, now required under EU law, to ensure that UK financial services and commodity trading firms are able to bid in auctions of emissions allowances in the UK and across Europe. It is important that the UK allows these firms to bid in auctions of emissions allowances to maintain London’s position at the heart of the carbon market, of which it currently enjoys an 80% global share.

The EU Emissions Trading Scheme was the world’s first and largest international scheme for the trading of greenhouse gas emissions and is at the heart of the UK Government’s policy to tackle climate change cost-effectively. It is estimated that the EU Emissions Trading Scheme will deliver emissions reductions of 3,100 metric tonnes of CO₂, relative to 2005 levels, between 2013 and 2020. Across the EU, it is predicted to deliver emissions savings of 21% below 2005’s verified emissions by 2020. There will also be a dramatic rise in the level of auctioning. This is in line with the market-based approach of the scheme and best ensures the efficiency of the system.

As the system moves to a greater level of auctioning, it is important to ensure confidence and integrity in it and in the way that auctions are run, so the EU regulatory framework for auctions has been strengthened and introduces common EU standards for regulating certain bidders in the auctioning of emissions allowances. It is up to each member state to implement this framework in accordance with its own national laws. This includes requiring certain bidders in the auctions to be authorised by national authorities: for the UK, that is the Financial Services Authority. To minimise administrative burdens, these regulations apply only to banks, investment banks and credit institutions when wishing to bid in auctions on behalf of others, and to commodity traders when bidding in their own right or on behalf of others. Under the EU rules, eligible participants in the EU ETS will be able to bid directly, subject to meeting certain admission requirements, without FSA authorisation. However, it is likely that financial institutions will provide an important means for operators to enter the market where direct bidding is not practical or desirable.

Implementing these changes will result in the Financial Services Authority gaining powers to authorise those financial services to bid in auctions of emissions allowances across Europe. To achieve this, the regulations amend secondary legislation relating to FiSMA, the Financial Services and Markets Act, and make minor amendments to the Act itself. Minor amendments to domestic anti- money laundering legislation are also required. We have considered the impacts of these regulations on business and have minimised costs to UK financial institutions by ensuring that, for such firms, we meet our obligations and no more. We consulted on our approach in the usual way and received no substantive responses. In addition, the regulatory policy committee has scrutinised and approved these changes. The FSA has also consulted on its regulatory approach, including any fees and compliance costs applying to those wishing to bid. Again, it received no substantive responses.

It is important to note that only those financial services firms wishing to bid in auctions of emissions allowances will be subject to these regulations and need to be authorised by the FSA. Firms will therefore seek authorisation to bid only if they consider that it will provide a financial return to them.

It is important that we make these legislative changes now, before the first auctions of phase 3 and aviation emissions allowances begin. The first UK auctions will take place in November this year, subject to EU approval. Germany and the European Commission have also indicated that they will begin auctioning allowances after the summer on their own platforms.

In summary, these legislative changes are required by EU law so that UK-based firms can participate in auctions of emissions allowances across Europe and provide services to others wishing to buy allowances. The changes are necessary to preserve London’s position at the heart of, and leading, the developing carbon market.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, what a joy it is to discuss with the Minister, after a fairly contentious issue last night—namely, the Government’s Finance Bill—this instrument, a measure that is not only uncontentious but is in fact welcomed by the Opposition. I agree with the rationale that he has given both for the necessity of the measure and the benefits that it will bring regarding access to the auctioning of greenhouse gas emission allowances.

We have one or two questions that I am sure that the Minister will be more than ready to answer. Is he as surprised as I am that, from what one can gather, the consultation, which, admittedly, ran for a very limited period, heard from only one respondent? This must surely be some kind of record. It indicates either that the measure is beyond reproach in every way—the answer that the Minister will certainly favour—or that it presents a limited opportunity. Small and medium-sized enterprises do not appear to think that they have much opportunity under the order. Does he have any comments to make on that?

I would be interested to see just how the Minister evaluates the significance of the measure in the Government’s overall objectives regarding climate change. Not only do we share those objectives but we are keen that the Government continue to sustain the policy to hit the targets that have been established for a considerable time now. I note the urgency of the situation, given that European auctions are taking place in the fairly near future. That is required under EU law and it is only right that the measure is before us. We give it our fullest support.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, for making sure that our afternoon is not quite as exciting as the close of business last night. I thank him for his support for the measure, which is, rightly, seen not only as uncontentious but as supportive of this important area of policy development. In response to his question about the consultation, I can tell him that it lasted for eight weeks. I believe the lack of substantive responses is a reflection that this is a very simple measure, which simply extends the requirement of authorisation to firms if they want to continue to operate in the EU auction process as it moves into this new phase 3. I am not at all surprised or in any way concerned by the lack of substantive responses. As the noble Lord says, there was one, but I believe that it was pointing out something in the grammar or the spelling of the rules, which it is important to get right—I know that your Lordships’ are always very keen, as respondents to consultations are, to make sure we get the grammar right.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

Is the Minister confessing that the Government were wrong and the respondent got it right?

[Lord Sassoon]

I do not actually know whether the respondent got it right; all I know is that that was the issue that came up.

On the noble Lord’s point about SMEs, I do not see it in the way that he sees it. Principally, this is a sophisticated market—trading in emissions is not something that the man or woman on the street would do. We are talking about, on the whole, sophisticated commodity trading firms or large financial intermediaries, so the measure is not targeted at SMEs directly. They will be the ultimate users and beneficiaries of the broad emissions system being put in place, but they are not likely to be players. On the other hand, if they want to be players, as the impact assessment set out, the costs of going through the registration authorisation process are not onerous.

On the noble Lord’s last point about how the order fits within the objective of meeting the climate change targets, I confirm what I said in opening. This Government, like the previous Government, are keen to see a market-based solution as far as possible to meeting the targets—the emissions trading system and auctioning very much underpin the market-based approach. In that context, this is a small additional measure to make sure that the auctioning element of this construct is properly regulated. I hope that that answers the noble Lord’s questions.

Finance Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 16th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, as I respond to this debate on the Finance Bill, I thank the dedicated band of noble Lords for contributing to this short and, what was until the last intervention, rather focused debate, before the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, went off in many different directions. This year’s Finance Bill follows an unprecedented degree of consultation and engagement, and implements many of the changes announced at the Budget. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, that there were some 200 measures in the Budget and on three of them, after consultation, we made appropriate changes. Therefore, I think that his characterisation of the Budget-making process, and the changes since, is way off the mark.

First, I will address one or two of the specific points raised before returning to the bigger picture. I start by thanking my noble friend Lady Kramer for pointing out what the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, seems not to recognise—that we are now engaged in the most progressive tax strategy of any Government in recent years. I completely agree with her. Not only is that the case but it is demonstrably the case. No previous Government have put distributional tables into the Budget document so that it is completely clear where the majority of the pain is falling, which is on those with the broadest shoulders in the top percentiles of the income distribution. I can assure my noble friend that as we carry on the progress on these many issues, we will make sure that we are very alive to loopholes. On stamp duty, for example, there are clearly questions, with possible ways of doing sub-sales avoidance and so on.

My noble friend mentions one offshore financial centre. I think that the agreement with Switzerland, which I referred to in my opening speech, shows that we will work tirelessly to take all appropriate action on that front. The noble Lord, Lord Browne of Belmont, makes a powerful case in relation to marriage. I would not go as far as the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, in rebutting that case. The coalition agreement commitment remains in place. We keep that commitment, as we do all taxes, under review. The noble Lord would not expect me to say any more this evening, but he has put on the record very clearly his feelings on this matter.

As to the IT systems of HMRC for transferable allowances, again it is an area of questioning that has been raised in another place. There is nothing I can usefully add. We do not tend to give a running commentary on HMRC operational matters. If there is anything more I can do to shed light on the specific questions that the noble Lord, Lord Browne, raises, of course I will write. However, my strong feeling is—as I suspect he realises—that I will not be able to give him anything more on that, but he makes his points very clearly.

My noble friend Lord Flight made some very technical but important points around EIS and VCT schemes in particular. He made the important point that some £12 billion of equity has been raised. These schemes have been extremely successful. As I outlined in my opening speech, we want to expand them. At one point my noble friend characterised them as giving with one hand and taking with the other. We do not see it like that. We have consulted extensively on detailed rules. Many industry groups contributed to the consultation and strongly supported the complete package of changes. However, my noble friend made his point very clearly. We keep these matters under continual review and if there are ways of making the guidance clearer and more helpful, I am sure that his thoughts will be taken on board. I will draw them to the attention of relevant officials. I also take the general point about clearer English, which is something of which we need to be reminded on a regular basis.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, launched a quite extraordinary attack—with which I agreed on a number of matters. My principal point of agreement was with the statement at the end of his speech that this is a recession made in Downing Street. I completely agree. The structural deficit that caused the recession to be as deep and severe as it is came from the overspending in the six years up to the financial crisis of 2008, when the previous Government diverted from the plans they had been left by my right honourable friend the previous Chancellor but three, Kenneth Clarke, who left the nation’s finances in a fine state. If the previous Government had carried on with his plans for a few years more, things would not be in the state that they are.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

Would the noble Lord extend the same criticism to all the other advanced countries that face exactly the same issues?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, we were left with the largest structural deficit in the G20. We have brought it down from more than 11% to 8%, so we are making good progress—but the size of the task was bigger than in any other major economy.

Without rebutting the full litany and charge sheet—noble Lords would not thank me for keeping them much longer tonight—I absolutely rebut suggestions that we are insensitive to the societal and distributional effects of our measures. I explained the transparency with which we set out the effects of the Budget. It is those on the highest incomes who will pay most. The real results of what we are doing are the 800,000 new jobs that the private sector has created in the past two years. It is only by the private sector creating new jobs that we will be able to afford the better public services that the country needs and the lower taxes that we deserve. New jobs, falling unemployment and falling inflation are the things that the Government are concentrating on, and which the Budget continues to underpin.

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, referred to today’s announcement by the IMF that downgraded global growth prospects. He was right to draw attention to it. The IMF forecast minus 0.3% growth for the eurozone this year. It forecast that the Italian economy will contract by 1.9% and the Spanish economy by 1.5%. It forecast that US growth would be only 2%, and it downgraded forecasts for emerging economy growth. It is in the face of those very strong headwinds that we have to carry on with our deficit reduction programme of tight fiscal discipline and loose money. I am very happy to talk about the 1930s. We do not have time to do it in detail, but tight fiscal discipline and loose money is precisely the prescription that caused a significant increase in growth through the 1930s.

In conclusion, this Government have taken difficult decisions to eliminate our structural current deficit over the coming four years and stimulate a private sector recovery. This strategy has been endorsed by the IMF, the OECD, the European Commission, ratings agencies and UK business organisations. We have always said that recovery would be choppy and our plans would necessarily incorporate a degree of flexibility. This Bill further delivers our commitment to improve our competitiveness, encourage investment and support our businesses, large and small. At the same time, it removes hundreds of thousands of individuals from income tax and helps reduce the cost of living for families across the country, and makes these changes in a way that is fairer and more consultative than any Finance Bill before. I commend this Bill to the House.

Eurozone

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 9th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, does the LIBOR scandal and other financial scandals strengthen or weaken Her Majesty’s Government’s plans for exceptional treatment in Brussels? Do we not have a common interest in a properly regulated single market? Would not Her Majesty’s Government, particularly the Prime Minister, be better involved in discussing these matters rather than sulking on the sidelines?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the UK is very much involved in the discussions in Brussels. That is why, as I have already said, we secured important parts of the EU patent court coming to London. That is why we recently secured a new British head for the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development. We are at the table and that is where we intend to stay.

Economy: Deficit Reduction

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Thursday 28th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

No, my Lords, that is not correct. Last year, Government departments came in with underspends of some £6 billion—and that was certainly not all capital spending. What my right honourable friend the Chancellor was able to do this week by cutting fuel duty, putting £550 million back into the pockets of hard-working families, illustrates how we are able to use underspends and put them to very good use where they are most valuable to our people.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, can the Minister explain why the Prime Minister was the only leader of a nation attending the G20 whose country was in recession? If he is talking about inheritance, does he recall the fact that, in 2010, this Government inherited a 2 per cent growth rate and now it is nought?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, we face very difficult challenges. For all the deficit reduction that we have done, this country still has a budget deficit higher than Greece, Portugal and Spain. Yet we have interest rates that are very much lower and the confidence of the markets, and it is off that base that sustainable growth will come.

Taxation: Avoidance

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Thursday 28th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I do think that we are comparing apples and pears. We will be vigorous on both fronts. In relation to tax avoidance, HMRC has reassigned some £900 million of its expenditure within the spending round to tackle this issue. We should also remember that while the tax gap in the UK is £35 billion—about 8% of liabilities—it compares well on an international comparison. For example, the equivalent in the US is 14% and in Sweden 10%. So, yes, there are big numbers to be played for, but good progress is being made.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

The House may have been encouraged by the Minister’s initial constructive response but past practice does not seem to quite measure up to his optimism. He commended the legislation passed by the Labour Government in 2004 under which accountants have to submit to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs any scheme which leads to tax avoidance. Was this implemented in the famous case of the comedian Jimmy Carr? Did his accountant inform HMRC? If so, what was done about it? If he did not, when are the Government going to act?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, individual taxpayer confidentiality is very important. It is the prime reason why we are certainly not going to see individual tax returns published and, therefore, I am not going to comment on an individual case. That particular case has had a great deal of airing in the past couple of weeks.

Environment: Green Growth

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 16th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

First, it is important to recognise that there are at least 16 funds that I have been able to identify in the ISA space that are already green or ethical in their scope and branding. More generally, there have been lots of proposals for tailor-made ISAs, such as big society ISAs, small company ISAs, corporate bond ISAs, social investment ISAs and early intervention ISAs. There are a lot of worthy ideas around, all of which have their merits, but on the ISA brand we intend to keep it as simple and broad as it has always been. As for the green investment bank, as my noble friend knows, at the moment it has its initial capital for the next four years and is actively looking at its 21st project. In time it will be able to borrow, but not for the first four years.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Worthington asked an extremely significant question—although she should note, in referring to this “greenest Government”, that irony is wasted upon them, particularly upon their Treasury Ministers. Why are the Government not investigating these matters with greater urgency? Why, for instance, is the relief on capital gains with regard to housing not tied to the energy efficiency of the house being sold? Why are the Government not pursuing strategies like that which would give reality to their somewhat disputed claim?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the private residence capital gains tax relief means that most people are not liable for capital gains tax on their main residences. If access to that relief were linked to energy efficiency improvements, not only would it override the broad policy aim of that relief—that people are encouraged to save for their house—but what about the large number of people who do not necessarily have the funds to be able to improve the efficiency of their homes? Is it really the position of the Opposition that capital gains tax relief on people’s main residences would be taken away if they were not able to afford efficiency improvements? That is certainly not the policy of this Government.

Sunday Trading (London Olympic Games and Paralympic Games) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Thursday 26th April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I apologise to the Committee that this is a manuscript amendment but the intention behind it is, as I indicated on Second Reading, that although we favour the extension of Sunday opening during the Olympic period, some limits should be put upon the opening hours of shops. The reason for submitting the manuscript amendment is that I discovered to my horror that the conclusion of the Olympic Games at the closing ceremony was not at 10 pm but at 10.30 pm. Given that the importance of the closing ceremony was germane to our case, I have submitted a manuscript amendment that extends opening hours to 11 pm.

We are of course in favour of the extension of opening hours, but there should be some limits upon the length of time that large stores and others can open during that period. The amendment goes some way towards recognising that Sunday is Sunday and is different from the rest of the week, and we are paying due regard to what is after all a widespread position held in the country on that matter. Our proposal to limit opening hours offers some protection to the workers. We have had a discussion on giving notice to people in the workforce of the intention to work on Sunday and the time in which they can reply. However, some constraint on hours offers at least an element of protection against possibly excessive demands made upon workers during the Games period.

The amendment also gives some recognition to the concern about this legislation that we discussed at Second Reading but was not germane to, or expressed during, our debate on the previous amendments—the concern of convenience stores and small shops that they will be adversely affected by the Sunday opening hours of large stores. The Minister recognises the difficulties that we all face, but the background against which the stores have been working is that the impact assessment provided by the Government is a fairly limited document. What is more, we received it after Second Reading and it is therefore difficult to make an assessment of its value. Moreover, if we are in that position, so are interests outside.

It is clear that convenience stores feel that they may well suffer during the period of extended Sunday opening during the Olympic Games because of the superior competitive power of the large stores. At least this limitation on the hours proposed in the amendment recognises that.

The noble Lord, Lord Bates, said today that shops will open only when they think that there is market potential. They will open when they will be profitable. This will operate for a limited period and it will be extremely difficult for people to make such assessments. Therefore, we think that, at the very least, the legislation should indicate for what time shops should be open. I recognise the limitations that not opening before 10 am, in particular, represents, but it goes some way towards the recognition of Sunday being a less busy and challenging day than the rest of the week in the wider community.

Finally, I hope that the Minister will be prepared to accept the amendment. That might be a forlorn hope, but all along he has been keen to emphasise that this is emergency legislation to deal with a limited, restricted period and that it is no precursor to widening Sunday trading in future; it is solely related to the Olympic Games. If he gives fair wind to the amendment, that would indicate that we are concerned about the implications of this change for the wider community. While realising all the potential benefits of Britain being open during the Olympic Games, there should also be some recognition that on Sundays, special hours should obtain. I beg to move.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I will not disappoint the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham. The Government do not see favour in the amendment. As he explained, its effect would be to restrict the Sunday opening hours of large shops deregulated by the Bill so that they can open during the suspension period only between the hours of 10 am and, now, 11 pm, the intention being to prevent large shops from being able to open any earlier on Sundays than they can now or until too late in the evening. I wish that, along with all the other things that we discussed with the Opposition, we had been able to discuss this before, because we might then have been able to point out one or two of the difficulties with the proposal.

The starting point is that the Government have been clear from the beginning that the Bill is about flexibility. It is not about the Government imposing opening and closing times on large stores during the suspension period; it is about allowing shops to make their own decisions based on what is best for themselves, their staff and their customers. I do not think that it is right for your Lordships’ House to second-guess any of that. It is not that all large stores will suddenly open for 24 hours a day during the Olympic period; that would be absurd. We have discussed opening times with the large retailers and it is clear that there will be a variety of opening and closing times within individual groups. Some will deal with it on a regional, geographic basis. Within the whole group, some will stay open late, some will open earlier, and some will not change their opening times at all. The important thing is that the Government want that to be a decision for them.

The amendment is unnecessary. I do not want to overlabour the point, but as we have seen from the scrabbling around by the party opposite, they realise that putting a 10 pm stop would be before the closing ceremony had finished. Well, putting an 11 o’clock closing time after an event where 80,000 people have to get out of a stadium, adding an extra half-hour, is absurd if the change to the amendment is intended to reflect what is really going on at the events.

Even to reflect the situation at the event that the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, identified, half an hour for 80,000 people to get to a large shop near the stadium is plainly not doable. There are events that will finish as late as midnight on a Sunday. The beach volleyball finishes at 10 to midnight on 29 July. What about all those events that start before 10 am? Why should not we allow shops, if they want to, to service all those people who will be going into events? Again, I could give a very long list, but if we just take 29 July, there is an 8.30 start for the badminton, 8.30 for the hockey, 9 am for the basketball, shooting and archery, and so on.

The amendment does not work in relation to the narrow Olympic events themselves. It does not reflect the fact that retailers are already taking individual decisions to open early, late or make no change at all. As with the other opposition amendment, I note that it does not impose any sanction or penalty for breach of the 10 am to 11 pm restriction, so large shops may well ignore it. It would be a duty with no sanction, which I suggest is simply bad law. That contrasts with large shops which breach the current restrictions, which can be fined up to £50,000, which is clearly a significant punishment in relation to the gain. It does not work, it is unnecessary and I ask the noble Lord to consider withdrawing his amendment.

Tobacco: Smuggling

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Thursday 26th April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

Again I thank my noble friend and my answer is the same as I gave previously.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, in tackling the illegal sale and smuggling of cigarettes and some other commodities, do the Government make any assessment of the potential reduction in their capacity to tackle these issues by the loss of staff in crucial government departments?

[Lord Sassoon]

I know that the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, is an expert on the subject because I think that he had exactly the same Question from the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, about two years ago. He will know about the considerable efforts that his Government made. As I have already said, very specifically within the overall reduction that government departments are facing, HMRC has allocated £917 million to deal with revenue avoidance issues in the spending review period, of which £25 million is targeted at the area about which we are talking today. His concerns are fully recognised and have been met.

Value Added Tax: Listed Places of Worship

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 24th April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

The right reverend Prelate raises some important points. I can give him only partial comfort, or the answer that he wants, in respect of some of his question. First, as I have already explained, we intend to make sure that the compensation number fully reflects the additional costs of the Budget change. The element that troubles us most is that under the previous VAT arrangements the incentivisation worked in favour of alterations of listed buildings as opposed to repair and maintenance. We do not want to see anything that incentivises people against repairing and maintaining and therefore preserving the core heritage features of the property, so we think that it is right to put alterations, repairs and maintenance on an even basis. Therefore, although I cannot give the right reverend Prelate the comfort that we intend to revisit that issue, I stress again that we want to make sure that the churches are fully protected against the impact of the Budget change.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, is this a good time to reduce demand for the construction industry? In January this year, its output fell by 14 per cent. It is true that there was a slight improvement in February, but in the first quarter of this year output from the construction industry is certain to fall, with all the implications that that has for economic growth. Can the Minister look at this issue again?

[Lord Sassoon]

My noble friend was perhaps being excessively charitable to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, in saying that he was always right on matters. I am afraid that on this one he has not got it right. As I explained, the Government are fully compensating churches for the changes in VAT so that there will be just as much money available to listed places of worship before and after the change for them to put into something that we want to protect—the ongoing repair and maintenance of our listed places of worship.

National Insurance

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 5th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

Again, I am happy to hear the thoughts of my noble friend about what might be done. The national insurance holiday, which is estimated to be already supporting some 40,000 jobs in new firms, is only one part of the package to help small businesses: the reduction of the corporation tax rate, the extension of business rate relief for a further six months from 1 October this year onwards, the coming national loan guarantee scheme, as well as what the Government did with the above-indexation increase in national insurance thresholds. This is a significant package of which the holiday is only one element.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Chancellor has always claimed that the last Budget was not a tax-raising Budget, but I am sure the Minister will acknowledge that national insurance was raised. How much is that going to cost the average worker up to the end of this Parliament?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the subject of the Question is employers’ national insurance. By introducing the £21 a week above-indexation rise in the threshold, the Government benefited all employers by £3 billion a year through that very significant increase. Job creation in the private sector is in many ways very remarkable. Since the election over 500,000 new jobs have been created in the private sector, thus increasing employment, and only today Tesco announced 20,000-net new jobs in the UK over the next two years. We really must not run down what the private sector is doing to create new and sustainable jobs.

Budget Deficit

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 15th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My noble friend probably thinks that Moody’s have in mind what I have in mind: the policies of Mr Ed Balls. However, the chances of those being implemented are, fortunately, small. Only yesterday, a respected City broker from BGC Partners said:

“Ed Balls can whinge all he likes but you only have to look at a compendium of 10 year bond yields to know that the UK Chancellor, George Osborne is on the right track. For the Chancellor to take his foot off the gas in terms of cutting the debt reduction would be insanity personified!”.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, when it comes to whingeing the Government take first prize. They spend their time blaming either the previous Government or external forces. When will they take responsibility for the fact that they promised to encourage growth and have failed to do so, and promised to reduce the deficit and are failing on that? How much must the British people suffer before the Government change their policy?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, these are very difficult economic circumstances, in this country and globally. However, to give one example of where growth policies are coming through, there are 60,000 more people in employment than there were one quarter ago. That takes the total number in employment in this country to 29.13 million—a rise of more than 250,000 in the past 18 months. We must not play down the strength of the private sector in the UK economy.

Coins

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 24th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

Noble Lords may not be aware that they may have in their pocket two different sorts of 1p and 2p coins, because they were changed from cupronickel to copper-plated steel in 1992. When looking in my pocket this morning, first, I could not distinguish them and, secondly, I had not been aware of the distinction. This is well trodden territory as successive Governments have updated the coinage, and there should be no particular difficulty.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the House will have derived some reassurance from the Minister's answers thus far, but given that in the not too distant future there are likely to be changes to the higher denomination coins, would it not be politic now to have a full-blown consultation on, or perhaps even a commission into, the coinage to look at the future, to give people the opportunity to make their views known and to prepare?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, prepare for what? I have already said that there are no plans to change the £1 coin and I am happy to say that there are no plans to change any of the other denominations of coins. It is all rather hypothetical.

Shipping: Tax Revenue

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 18th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the tax has achieved an estimated reduction of £45 million of tax which the shipping industry in this country would otherwise pay under conventional corporation tax. It means that we have a more vibrant and healthy shipping industry in this country. Of course there are many other associated issues that my colleagues in government keep under review and discuss with the industry.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, is the Minister not concerned that the obfuscation involved in his replies to my noble friend Lord Prescott's questions merely reinforces our anxiety, which has also been expressed by the Public Accounts Committee of the other place, that the Government may be guilty of treating large companies somewhat more favourably than ordinary taxpayers, and that this may be another instance of cover for a somewhat cosy deal?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am surprised that there are any suggestions of some cosy deal. After all, this was a tax introduced by the noble Lord’s Government. He now says that he might have done a cosy deal. It has put British shipping ownership on a level playing field with other countries in Europe; it involves state aid, and the EU at some stage will review it. If anything, the complaint that we get is that other countries take unfair advantage of the EU dispensations.

As to what the other House has to say, I am sure that noble Lords will not need reminding that it was as recently as 1628 that this House stood up to another place on the question of tonnage and poundage and got us into frightful trouble, not least with the attempted impeachment of the Duke of Buckingham, who put forward the proposal. So I am certainly not going to cross swords with another place on this topic.

Economy: Government Policies

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 7th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, to repeat, the pension funds and also the insurance companies have come to Government and asked for our help. We have signed a memorandum of understanding to help them set up their vehicle as quickly as possible, because clearly they want to find an investment home for their money.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that the best deficit reduction strategy is in fact a growing economy? Why are the Government pursuing policies that have already reduced growth, and are destined to do so for several years?

[Lord Sassoon]

I do not accept that at all. Of course we all wish to see a strongly growing economy. The latest forecasts from the OBR are that the private sector will generate 1.7 million jobs over the forecast period. That is strong growth in the private sector.

International Monetary Fund

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Thursday 24th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I would just reinforce to my noble friend that at the G20 Britain and all the other countries agreed to ensure that the IMF continues to have all the resources that it needs. There is no lack of commitment to the IMF having those resources. We now need to see what proposals develop. I agree that the situation cannot drag on for ever.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the noble Lord has cited the resources that are already available to the IMF but many commentators foresee that they will be inadequate to meet the depth of this crisis. If the IMF seeks to raise further funds, will the Government be contributing?

Legislative Reform (Industrial and Provident Societies and Credit Unions) Order 2011

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Thursday 20th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister greeted my arrival at the Front Bench with a slightly wintry smile earlier. Whether he thought I was late, though I assure him I was descending from the rarefied atmosphere of the Back Benches, which is why I was slightly delayed, or whether he anticipated that this debate had some hidden horrors, I am not sure. He will, however, by now have appreciated the fact, from the contributions both of my noble friend Lord Kennedy and of the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, that this measure is most welcome and Her Majesty’s Opposition are delighted to see it being presented today.

As noble Lords have already spoken about the virtues and possibilities of the credit union and the Minister himself paid due tribute to their work, it would be otiose of me to expand on that matter and, as I am given to brevity, noble Lords will appreciate that I will take as read the reason why this order should commend itself to the House. However, I have some questions to ask, which I hope the Minister will be able to respond to. What does he expect the removal of the limit on non-withdrawal shares to be? Will this result in dominant members of a society emerging? What steps will the FSA be taking to ensure that societies do not become subject to such dominance whereby a small number of individuals might establish a very considerable influence with regard to these non-withdrawable share holdings?

On credit unions, could I ask about the removal of the common bond, which is the whole point of a credit union, because it provides the self-regulatory strength of mutual knowledge and understanding? What does this mean as far as the future of the credit union is concerned? Does it mean that credit unions will be just another form of financial organisation rather than the distinctive sort of organisation which is being commended in the speeches made so far today in this short debate?

Finally, what does the Minister expect to be the impact of bodies corporate joining credit unions? Will this not lead to small commercial enterprises exploiting the financial strength of the credit union to further the interests of their own businesses? In other words, would credit unions become tied to businesses instead of being independent? After all, one business which might supply 10 per cent of the assets of the credit union will undoubtedly be a powerful force within it.

We welcome this legislation, but I would be grateful if the Minister could give me some assurance on those limited anxieties.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am grateful to the small but focused and committed group of noble Lords who have spoken with clear knowledge and some degree of passion about this, as it is important. It is clear from all sides that there is strong support for the work that co-operatives and credit unions undertake across Great Britain.

Banking: Quantitative Easing

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 10th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

Yes, my Lords, I can absolutely give that assurance.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister will have appreciated the fact that two of the more challenging questions have come from his own side, from the noble Lords, Lord Lawson and Lord Newby, about the future of RBS. What preparations are the Government making for recapitalisation of RBS if that proves to be necessary?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, it would be completely wrong in any circumstances to speculate on individual banks. The FSA, the Bank of England and the Treasury look at all sorts of scenarios in relation to banks and other systemically important parts of the financial system. As a result of the recapitalisation of the banks and the stringent stress tests which the FSA has conducted repeatedly, the UK banking system is well recognised by the credit rating agencies and by many other commentators and is in a relatively good situation. We now want to see stress tests carried out right across the European banking system as a matter of urgency to proper standards.

Public Expenditure: Deficit Reduction

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 6th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

I completely agree with my noble friend that capital and infrastructure expenditure is one of the keys to growth, which is why we were able in the spending review last year to increase the plans that we inherited—to increase, I say again, the spending plans that we inherited from the previous Government —by up to £2.3 billion a year. That is an additional £8.5 billion on capital expenditure in the review period. I therefore agree with my noble friend. As for the green investment bank, it is on course to start the first phase of operation in April 2012. Legislation will be brought forward as soon as the state aid approvals have been forthcoming from Brussels.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister referred to the predictions and forecasts of the OBR but those were produced nearly six months ago and forecasted 1.7 per cent growth at that stage. Ever since, everyone else’s predictions have been somewhat lower. In circumstances where the American economy is clearly in difficulty and we have crisis in Europe, are the Government going to continue to pursue a strategy which will take us headlong into recession, with the price being paid by middle England and low-income families if that occurs?

[Lord Sassoon]

It has never been on such a strategy, and therefore there is no question of it continuing on such a strategy.

Living Standards

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 5th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

Just to be completely clear, inequality increased under the previous Government. The latest data show inequality coefficients to be flat, but it is too soon to see what the trends are under this Government. However, inequality increased under the previous Government—and that was in a decade when 40 per cent more in real terms was put into working-age benefits and tax credits, so this is a very difficult problem to crack. However, I agree with the noble Lord that it is important that informed and active shareholders make sure that they consider the split of rewards within companies between shareholders and employees—and that is precisely why it is high up the agenda of my right honourable friend the Business Secretary, who is considering proposals as we speak.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the House will have appreciated the Minister’s customary lucid answers to these questions, but the country will be more interested in the obvious question. How is it that after the banking failure of three years ago banking practices in terms of remuneration are being restored to their customary outrageous level?

[Lord Sassoon]

Unlike the mess that the previous Government left behind in banking—we really do not need a lecture on this—the Merlin agreement put in place by this Government is making sure not only that credit is delivered by the banks to our hard-pressed industry but that bankers’ remuneration was less in 2010 than it was the year before and is less than it would have been without that agreement in place. This Government are therefore very much on the case with bankers’ remuneration, as with so many other aspects of this very difficult inequality challenge.

Finance: Off-exchange Trading Venues

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 18th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I certainly do not think we should relax on the issue of high frequency trading. We only have to think back to the events of 6 May 2010. I do not need to remind your Lordships that there were two crashes on that day: one was the crash of the outgoing Government; the other was the so-called flash crash in which the Dow Jones index plummeted in a number of minutes by 9 per cent but fortunately, unlike the Labour Government, recovered by 9 per cent a few minutes later. We certainly take this issue very seriously but we need to continue to do the work and see where this leads us.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I think the country should be on its guard when euphemisms such as “black pools” are used. I agree with the noble Lord that they are an aid to liquidity but he will know—and I am grateful to him for identifying that the Government are expressing some anxiety in this respect—that they restrict transparency in the marketplace. We all know the price that we have paid for a lack of understanding of what has gone on in the world of finance and the importance, therefore, of the Government being concerned to get as much openness and transparency as they can.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, if they were black holes as the noble Lord suggests, we would be worried, but for dark pools, IOSCO, the international regulatory organisation, has recently laid down six principles to guide the operation of the regulatory framework of dark pools, and the FSA’s assessment is that the UK and the EU are fully compliant.

Oil Prices

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 8th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, we will bring forward the Bill in due course when it is in good shape. I take my noble friend's point about commodity prices. It reinforces the fact that we need to ensure that all energy users get advice to use energy efficiently in order to reduce their household bills. That is part of where we are targeting government help.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, when energy prices and oil prices rise, the price to the consumer rises very quickly. When world prices fall, the price to the consumer falls very slowly. What are the Government going to do about that?

European Financial Stability Mechanism

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Thursday 12th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, my noble friend embedded a number of questions in what was apparently one question. As to the use of the different articles, another key part of the agreement at the European Council in December 2010 was that Article 122 would unequivocally not be used in future for these purposes. Without going into the debate about whether Article 122 should ever have been used for this sort of operation, it will not be used in future—that is agreed. As to Article 125, that is used for loans for medium-term financing under things such as the balance of payments facility and quite other purposes, and that will continue. As to the UK’s participation, the new mechanism has been agreed by the Council. Its resolution is completely clear. A treaty amendment will bring in the new mechanism. That position could not be clearer. As to Portugal, my right honourable friend the Chancellor has made it completely clear that as the negotiations go forward to completion, the UK will not participate in any bilateral loan to Portugal. Ireland was a special case, and the same considerations do not apply in the case of Portugal.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

The House will have noted that the Minister brushed aside the constitutional preamble to the Question. I have some sympathy with him on that, but will he confirm that what took place after the general election had produced an inconclusive result and during the interim period was an entirely proper action by the Chancellor of the Exchequer at the time, Alistair Darling, who sought consensus from the Conservative Party before he went to ECOFIN and subsequently had that consensus confirmed by the Government when the Economic Secretary to the Treasury, Justine Greening, confirmed it on 21 July? Will the noble Lord take the opportunity to clear that up?

[Lord Sassoon]

I am very happy to clear up the matter; I thought we had done that a week or two ago. Let me be absolutely clear. The previous Chancellor, Mr Darling, took the decision—it was still for him and the previous Government to take that decision. He consulted the Opposition. My right honourable friend the current Chancellor made it clear that he did not agree with the decision. The previous Chancellor consulted him on the course of action that was proposed and, in the words of my right honourable friend, it was for the previous Chancellor to reach that decision. The previous Chancellor reached the wrong decision. That was his decision; he made it.

EU: Budget

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Thursday 28th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

Again, I completely agree. That is precisely why the other two of the three key points made in the joint statement at the February ECOFIN were about greater member state responsibility for items of expenditure and greater transparency. Therefore, I think that we have already identified the three key areas where improvement needs to be made and needs to be made quickly.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

We of course wish the Minister and the Government well in their labours with regard to this issue but we do not underestimate the challenge of the task and are not anticipating early progress. However, there is one set of sums of money relating to Europe in which the nation is greatly interested and on which I am sure the Minister is well briefed and aware of what is involved, and that is the amount of money we are committed to on eurozone bailouts. Will the Minister enlighten the House with those figures?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, much as I would like to talk about European bailouts, we talk about them on other occasions and I think that we are straying a bit far from the audit issue on which other noble Lords may want to ask questions.

EU: European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Thursday 31st March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Lawson of Blaby, who, as is customary, brings us back to what is really important. I can absolutely confirm what he says. At the European Council on 17 December 2010, this Government did what the previous Government failed to do, which was to get agreement that there would be an amendment to the treaty that would achieve a permanent mechanism to be established by the member states of the euro area to safeguard the financial stability of the euro area as a whole. Therefore, it is indeed correct that, as of 2013 at the latest, the United Kingdom, being outside the euro area, will not be part of this mechanism. That is the critical point, which I can confirm.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I agree that this is an important point of public policy. However, it should be appreciated that there is a significant matter at stake, because my right honourable friend Alistair Darling appears to have been accused by the Prime Minister of acting out of faith as far as the present Government are concerned. The document signed by Justine Greening, the Economic Secretary and therefore answerable to the Chancellor, related to the legislation. It is headed “Explanatory Memorandum on European Union Legislation” and the last paragraph is as follows:

“It should be noted that whilst agreement on behalf of the UK was given by the previous administration, cross-party consensus had been gained”.

Is an apology not due to my right honourable friend, who acted entirely properly and consistently with this note?

[Lord Sassoon]

No, my Lords. No apology is due. I have already tried to make it clear, but let me make it absolutely clear again. Consensus was reached on the process by which the ECOFIN qualified majority voting meeting would take place. That, as has also been made completely clear, is quite a separate matter from my right honourable friend the Chancellor making clear his position on the underlying policy matter. The two matters are distinct. The decision on the policy matter was for the then Chancellor, Mr Alistair Darling. He was the Chancellor at the time and he took the decision.

Social Security (Contributions) (Amendment No. 2) Regulations 2011

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 16th March 2011 Grand Committee

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, I am pleased to introduce the Social Security (Contributions) (Amendment No. 2) Regulations 2011 and the Social Security (Contributions) (Re-rating) Order 2011. It is worth noting that all the changes covered by these two instruments were announced as part of a Written Ministerial Statement in December last year. As both the regulations and order deal with national insurance contributions, it seems only sensible that they should be debated together. As a matter of course, I can confirm that the provisions in the regulations and the order are compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights.

I shall begin with the social security regulations. The previous Government’s 2008 Pre-Budget Report announced an increase in class 1 and class 4 national insurance contribution rates of 0.5 per cent. These rate rises were due to come into force from the start of the 2011-12 tax year, but 12 months later the former Chancellor of the Exchequer declared his intention to double the increases. This would have placed additional burdens on businesses at a time when they are most in need of our support. While this Government confirmed that these rate rises would be implemented, we are implementing them as part of a wider package of reforms that will reduce the overall cost of employment and will support people on lower incomes. We will achieve this by increasing the income tax personal allowance, the primary threshold and the secondary threshold. The social security regulations before the Committee today are a vital part of this process.

To start with, the point at which employers will have to start paying national insurance will increase from £110 per week to £136 per week from April of this year. This is a weekly rise of £21 above indexation, which means that employers will not pay any national insurance on the first £7,072 of any worker’s earnings.

From April of this year, the class 1 primary threshold, which is the point at which employees start to pay class 1 national insurance contributions, will increase from £110 per week to £139 per week. This is an increase of £24 a week above indexation, which will help to mitigate the effects that a 1 per cent increase in the employee’s rate of national insurance contributions will have on the lower-paid.

As a result of the increases in thresholds included in today’s regulations, around 950,000 low earners will no longer pay national insurance contributions, while their contributory benefit entitlements will be protected. Employees earning under £35,000 a year will pay less both in terms of income tax and NICs. Employers will pay less in NICs on all workers earning less than £20,000 a year. In relation to NICs thresholds, employers will be better off by £150 for every employee earning above the secondary threshold.

Compared with the plans that this Government inherited, more than £3 billion a year is being returned to employers through the secondary threshold rise. Even more money will be going straight into the pockets of hard-working families due to the changes in the primary threshold.

Today’s regulations also set the level of the lower earnings limit. This takes into account changes that we are making to the way in which the basic state pension will be uprated. As part of last year’s June Budget, my right honourable friend the Chancellor announced that the basic state pension will be linked to earnings from April 2011. Not only that, we included the added guarantee that it would rise in line with either earnings, prices or 2.5 per cent, depending on which is greatest.

Now that the earnings link has been restored, the lower earnings limit is no longer legislatively linked to the basic state pension. This means that the Treasury can set its level independently of the basic state pension through affirmative resolution. As a result, large rises in the basic state pension will not result in lower earners being taken out of contributory benefit entitlement. This is fair and progressive and it will support the poorest and most vulnerable in our society. For the upcoming tax year, the lower earnings limit will increase by RPI to £102 per week, while the upper earnings limit will go down from £844 per week to £817 per week. This is to maintain the alignment with the point at which the higher rate of income tax is paid. It is also worth noting that the regulations will increase the main rate primary contributions paid by women who married before 6 April 1977, taking them up to 5.85 per cent from this April.

The social security order sets out the NICs rates and thresholds for the self-employed and those paying voluntary contributions. In the case of the self-employed, it raises the small earnings exception for paying class 2 contributions. The exception will rise in April from £5,075 to £5,315 a year, which is broadly in line with prices. The rate of class 2 contributions will increase from £2.40 to £2.50 a week. The rate of voluntary class 3 contributions will also increase from £12.05 a week to £12.60 a week. Again, this is similar to the general increase in prices.

Today’s order sets the profit limits for which main rate class 4 contributions are paid. The lower limit at which these contributions are due will increase from £5,715 to £7,225 a year, in the same fashion as the class 1 primary threshold. At the other end of the scale, the upper profits limit will be reduced from £43,875 to £42,475. This maintains alignment with the upper earnings limit for employees, which, as I said, is being reduced to reflect the changes made to the higher rate of income tax. The changes to the class 4 limits will ensure that the self-employed pay contributions on a similar range of earnings to employees paying class 1 contributions. The increase in the lower profits limit will guarantee that the 1 per cent increase in the class 4 NICs main rate is offset for the self-employed. This is in much the same way as the increase in the primary threshold offsets the 1 per cent increase for employees.

The legislation included as part of today’s order and regulations is an important part of the Government’s plans to reduce the taxation of labour. It will encourage employers to take on more workers, help those on the lowest incomes and support private enterprise and employment across the country. This is important for the economy and important for the recovery. I commend the regulations and the order to the Committee.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for the explicit way in which he outlined the contents of the regulations and the order. He will forgive me if I do not spend a great deal of time responding to them. First, it seems that the main principles adumbrated in his contribution were debated pretty thoroughly at the general election and largely resolved by crucial decisions then. Secondly, we have had the opportunity to debate national insurance contributions with some degree of intensity over the past few weeks. These issues have also already been considered by the other place. Therefore, the noble Lord will forgive me if I am not able to match the strength, force and length of his opening contribution. However, I have two specific questions to ask, to which I would like him to address his mind and respond.

The Government—or the more senior party of the coalition—made much of this in their rhetoric during the general election. Afterwards, there was in the coalition agreement this commitment—indeed, a pledge—to stop the rise in employer national insurance contributions from April 2011. However, there seems to be a difference between the expectations to which this might give rise and the reality that we see in the SI before us. What is given back to the employer through the threshold changes to class 1 secondary contributions? The threshold goes up from 12.8 to 13.8 per cent but this appears to be somewhat less than employers might have thought they were getting following the pledge to stop the rise entirely as far as employers are concerned. It looks as though the Government are giving back with a degree of generosity that does not quite fulfil their commitment. The noble Lord mentioned that he thought that as much as £3 billion was being returned. Can he confirm that figure and say whether it is consistent with employers’ expectations of what they would get back?

Secondly, I want to comment on what I am sure the noble Lord will indicate is a minor issue, although it is not minor to many of us. I refer to the contribution of married women and widows. I know that they form a limited group but I see that the increase in their contributions will be from 4.8 to 5.8 per cent. What are they getting for that increase? We know that they get no retirement pension, that they cannot get jobseeker’s allowance if they become unemployed and that they receive no sickness benefits. Yet, in all the Government’s bravado about the restrictions that they would place on increasing national insurance contributions, they could not exempt this group. That seems to be at one with an awful lot of the dispositions made by the Chancellor and by Ministers responsible for Treasury matters over the past few months. I think particularly of child benefit for women who earn more than £40,000 a year. Whether intended or not, the legislation seems to discriminate pretty heavily against women when we would have thought that, if the Government were true to the principle that the noble Lord adumbrated in his concluding remarks, which reflected some fairness, this group would have been treated more generously. Will the Minister comment on that? In more general terms, the Opposition are supportive of the regulations.

National Insurance Contributions Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 14th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, we debated this issue in Committee and it was the subject of debate in the other place as well. However, we found the Government’s response to this amendment and the concept behind it somewhat unconvincing. Their view seems to be that this measure, in this Bill, revolves around what they define as the wealth-creating sector. That seems, by definition, to exclude charities from consideration. Why should the Bill be subject to this narrow definition, which seems to suggest that charities do not contribute to wealth in our society? That view is buttressed by the Government’s arguments that reflect the very narrow definition of what they regard as the nation’s wealth. In other words, it is to do with jobs but not public welfare—it is about people being employed but not what they are employed to do. In other words, it has nothing to do with quality of life.

I know that the Minister will regard my presentation of these arguments as indulging in a flight of fancy that is a little different from the day-to-day preoccupations of the Treasury. However, I ask noble Lords to consider the obvious point that in these difficult times we should give hope to our people, as this measure seeks to do. We should give help and support to those thousands of our fellow citizens who will lose their jobs in the public sector as the Government say that they cannot afford to employ them all. They rarely deploy the argument which they use regularly at party conferences and elsewhere, when rhetoric plays its part, that they wish to reduce the size of the state as they consider that that would benefit the nation. In reducing the size of the state they are, by definition, reducing the number of people in public employment not because they cannot be afforded but because, in the Government’s opinion, society is better when the Government play a smaller part. The House will not be surprised to hear that we take a somewhat different view about wealth and the virtues of public employment.

The previous amendment was directed at those parts of the country which the Minister indicated were more dependent on public sector employment which is to be subjected to such a serious assault from the government cutbacks. Why can we not help these areas by creating jobs in bodies such as non-trading charities? Of course, I appreciate that it will be a modest contribution and I subscribe to the view that the noble Lord will no doubt put forward in his reply that the Bill overwhelmingly concentrates on businesses which create wealth. I am not in any way, shape or form against that endeavour. In fact, my party has made clear that it supports the development of small businesses. However, I am against exclusion for no obvious good reason. I do not see why non-trading charities should not be included.

The Minister’s argument in Committee partly revolved round the fact that the matter is said to be outside the main purposes of this legislation and that we should not bring in something that is somewhat extraneous. However, the number of Bills which the Treasury can introduce over the year is fairly limited. The noble Lord will be all too well aware of the fact that apart from the Finance Bill, in which this feature is scarcely likely to be addressed, Treasury Bills, other than those which have a very specific operation, are few and far between as the Treasury competes with other departments for legislative time in both Houses. We therefore propose an amendment of a most modest but beneficial kind that—even if the Minister thinks it is not entirely appropriate to the main purposes of this modest measure—is not far distant from the objective of creating jobs on a very small scale in areas where public employment is being reduced. I maintain that non-trading charities can play a modest part in creating those jobs.

Given the government arguments thus far—and that is why we are continuing this debate beyond Committee—I see no reason why the amendment should not commend itself to the Government, and that is why I commend it to the House. I beg to move.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the noble Lords who put their name to the amendment have again raised the issue of making non-trading charities eligible for the employers national insurance contribution holiday. This matter was debated at some length in Committee and I again suspect that what I am going to say will not come as a huge surprise to the noble Lords concerned. Nevertheless, I will do my best to persuade them to withdraw the amendment.

I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, was going to go off on some flight of fancy. I do not think that he went off on any flight of fancy, and he kept entirely to areas that the Treasury takes extremely seriously. I was therefore disappointed, because I expected the noble Lord to go down some exotic new avenue—but he did not.

However, in the first half of his remarks, he did not recognise that an important group of charities will get the benefit of this holiday. It is important for me to confirm that new charities in qualifying areas are eligible for the holiday if they are carrying on a business. I appreciate that the noble Lord later on in his remarks started to distinguish between trading and non-trading charities, but this is an important point. For example, were employees to be taken on for a charitable trade, such as providing education or healthcare services, the charity is potentially eligible for this generous relief. Amendment 5 would specifically extend eligibility to new non-trading charities in qualifying areas. As, to be fair, the noble Lord recognises, this would not support the Government’s objective of encouraging new entrepreneurs to set up businesses in areas with a high proportion of public sector employment. The noble Lord suggested that his amendment would be a nice-to-have add-on, if I may crudely paraphrase him. However, he recognised that it does not chime in with the core purpose of the Bill.

Just as we have other ways of supporting regions that are not covered by the holiday, the Government of course have other important ways in which they support the critical work of charities, not least in their contribution to the big society. We provide substantial support to charities and charitable giving with tax reliefs worth more than £3 billion each year. Gift aid and relief from non-domestic rates are each worth around £1 billion a year. I remind noble Lords that, across the UK, charities that are employers will also benefit from the increase in the employers national insurance contribution threshold by £21 a week, plus indexation, that comes into effect on 6 April.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, this amendment again relates to an issue that we addressed in Committee. On that occasion, the Minister gave us the benefit of his perspective on this matter and indicated the ways in which the Government would be held properly accountable for their work in this area, as in all aspects of Treasury matters, and indeed wider than that.

The amendment relates to the specific nature of the holiday. We are seeking an annual report in the terms adumbrated by the amendment because this is a most interesting scheme. If not experimental, the scheme certainly has a significant dimension, which is, as we discussed when we debated the earlier amendments on the regional aspects of the scheme, the control factor attached to it. The scheme will operate in the majority of the country, although it will exclude the south-east, London and the eastern region. Therefore, after a year, we shall be able to see how much progress has been made on job creation for those who have lost their position and where there are fewer jobs in the public service and we shall have a control position as regards those regions that are not in the scheme. We may be able to see the benefit of this initiative by the Government.

To my noble friends on the Front Bench, that seems to be a good reason why we should have a precise annual report on this scheme and on how it has worked. Although I quite understand that the Minister’s defence is likely to be that the Treasury is always open and accountable and that it has measures whereby it makes matters explicit to the nation, I would not be the first noble Lord to have to confess, even with the experience of being on the Treasury Bench, that from time to time there has been a degree of obscurity that makes it extremely difficult to analyse just what has transpired in schemes and their effectiveness. This amendment would give the Treasury a golden opportunity, after one year, to make quite clear the success or otherwise of the scheme, which we wish success. I beg to move.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, Amendment 7 would insert a new clause into the Bill with the aim of requiring the Treasury, following the day on which the Act is passed, to review the operation of the regional employer NICs holiday under Part 2 of the Bill and to provide an annual report to Parliament. The amendment would require the annual report to contain information by region. At the risk of being accused of piling Pelion on Ossa, it is important to get the comparison between what is proposed by this amendment and what I shall go on to say the Government propose to do. It is important to get it straight. I hope that I am not going into any unnecessary detail but I will clarify what is going on in the proposed amendment and what the Government seek to do.

The amendment requires that the annual report should contain, by region,

“(a) the number of businesses availing themselves of the secondary contributions holiday;

(b) the number of employees designated as qualifying employees under the scheme;

(c) the total expenditure saved by businesses under the scheme; and

(d) an assessment of the demand to apply the regional holiday to different areas of the country”.

As I said in Committee when we discussed amendments of a similar nature, I think that this amendment is motivated by a wish to encourage transparency—the noble Lord, Lord Davies, has confirmed that—and to ensure that proper consideration is given to how the holiday operates in practice. I shall attempt to explain to noble Lords why the amendment is unnecessary.

First, as I said in Committee, my honourable friend the Exchequer Secretary explained in the Public Bill Committee in another place that there is no budget as such for the scheme. Anybody contemplating starting up a new business can be confident that there is no budgetary constraint on the scheme. The holiday will continue as proposed regardless of how many successful applications are made. If a large number of additional new businesses are formed as a result of the policy, this would help to increase Exchequer revenues. The expected costs of the scheme were set out in the policy costing document at Budget 2010.

Secondly, on the point on which the noble Lord, Lord Davies, focused his remarks, the Government are committed to increasing the transparency of tax policy-making and of the tax system more generally. To that end, I am happy to repeat the undertaking, which I have mentioned before at different stages of this Bill, made by my honourable friend the Exchequer Secretary in another place to provide to Parliament and the public updates before the end of the calendar year on the operation of the scheme, including information at regional level. As I said in Committee, we envisage a factual report regionally and nationally covering the number of new businesses applying, the number of applications rejected, the number of qualifying employees for whom a holiday has been claimed and the amount claimed.

The only significant difference between the commitment that the Government have made and the amendment that we are debating is that the latter would require,

“an assessment of the demand to apply the regional holiday to different areas of the country”.

I am not completely clear about the meaning of these words and how what is suggested would operate. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, did not address the detail. The substantive point is that the Government do not see the need to report annually on the demand to apply the holiday to different areas of the country. We can assess that now and I do not expect the assessment to change. There is, of course, strong demand from excluded regions to enjoy the benefit of a holiday that they would like to have, but we have debated that already and the House has this afternoon formed a view on excluded regions. The position remains as we have debated it, so I am not sure how that part of the amendment would achieve anything.

The Government’s objective remains to target resources at those regions most in need. The Government do not expect the objective to change. By tabling this amendment again, the noble Lord has given me the opportunity to restate for the avoidance of doubt that we will come forward with a transparent and comprehensive report on an annual basis. With those reassurances, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I am once again grateful to the Minister for his identification of the way in which the Government are seeking to meet the clear objectives of transparency and effectiveness with regard to the scheme. Of course, I understand that because the scheme has no particular budget there is an aspect of parliamentary control that is clearly not possible in the measurement of the budget. My noble friends support this amendment because we see the value of transparency with regard to the scheme, particularly a scheme that is partial in its impact. Of course I understand that the Government have sustained their position about the limited geographical range of the scheme, but there is bound to be greater demand for transparency in a scheme that does not apply to areas where there are none the less pockets of deprivation, as we sought to identify in the past. Clearly, they would have benefited from the scheme had that been the case.

I accept what the noble Lord has said about the process by which the Government will be transparent on the operation of the scheme. I want to make it clear to him and the Government that we will continue to take a close interest in this scheme. It may be a modest measure, but it is highly significant and, in certain aspects, groundbreaking in the way in which it has been framed. That is why we will hold the Government to account on the extent to which they reflect accurately the operation of the scheme. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Taxation: Low-value Consignment Relief

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 1st March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I fully accept my noble friend’s statement that this is an important area, which is why the Treasury is looking at it. It flows not from any scam but from the fact that the Channel Islands are treated as outside the European Union for these purposes. That goes back to the accession treaty. The previous Government took steps with the Channel Islands authorities to encourage them to introduce a voluntary restraint and caps on the activities of individual firms in this area. The issue relates not only to CDs and DVDs but to a whole range of goods. It is precisely because this is an important area and we want to make sure that the Exchequer is protected that Ministers are looking at what else we might do.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister’s response to his noble friend’s original Question seemed somewhat complacent in respect of the charge sheet of problems associated with this issue. He implied that things are improving, but the noble Lord, Lord Newby, expressed doubt about whether things are improving. I think that the whole House should be doubtful. With online sales increasing at their current levels and with this trade being very much a matter of online sales, it would be very surprising indeed if it was significantly decreasing. Would it not therefore behove the Minister to indicate that the Government intend to act in this area? If it is not an abuse of taxation—if it is not a scam—then it is certainly very close to being an avoidance of tax which we ought to put an end to.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I did not want to turn this into a political question; indeed, I attempted to give credit to the previous Government for the actions that they took in conjunction with the Channel Islands authorities. However, the fact is that the VAT loss is estimated to have increased very considerably—by approximately 50 per cent in the past five years—under the previous Government. Members of that Government are now saying that the situation is terrible and we need to take action, but what did they do in the five years in which the amount of revenue lost to the Exchequer increased by 50 per cent? They only talked to the Channel Islands authorities. We have immediately gripped the situation. Ministerial colleagues and HMRC officials are now examining what—in a very difficult and technical area—can be done. If there are things that we believe should be done, they will be announced in the forthcoming Budget.

National Insurance Contributions Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 28th February 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, presumably the Minister hopes that the Committee stage of this Bill will not be as protracted as another Bill that has been before the House over the past few weeks, and I think that I can give him that assurance. However, we want to debate whether Clause 1 should stand part for the obvious reason that this is by far the most significant clause in what is an important Bill.

As the Minister will appreciate, we support the increase in national insurance contributions but our proposals were very different. He must recognise that, during the course of the detailed discussion on the clauses of the Bill that we will have this afternoon, we will identify some of those points of difference. We hope that he will be in a position to answer some of the questions that were adumbrated in general terms at Second Reading and will be dealt with in rather more detail today.

To put the Bill in context, there is a difference in perspective between the Government’s strategy and the one that my party would pursue. The Minister and the Committee will recognise that last year there were three consecutive quarters of growth followed by a quarter of negative growth, which looked marginal when the first set of figures came out but rather more serious following the subsequent revision. We are concerned about the impact of the Bill and of the Government’s general strategy on the broader economy.

We would put jobs and growth first. That is why we are concerned that the increase in national insurance contributions will prove to be difficult for growth and particularly for the protection of employment, given that the increase in NICs is being supplemented by a very significant increase in VAT. Expert opinion identifies that the increase in VAT could result in the loss of three times as many jobs as might be lost by anything to do with national insurance increases, which were the subject of considerable debate at the last general election.

We are concerned that there is no protection for those earning less than £20,000 per year. We would have sought that protection by raising the primary threshold. The Government are imposing increases without fully increasing the secondary threshold for employers. That presents obvious difficulties. Can the Minister confirm that employers will suffer nearly £1.5 billion extra in terms of commitment of resources as against rather modest savings on the secondary threshold? The Minister will say that the secondary threshold is not meant to compensate for the impact on employers because personal tax allowances will help to some degree. The trouble with that argument, which the Minister vouchsafed to the House at Second Reading, is that it takes no account of the balance on personal tax allowances, namely the very severe benefits cuts and loss of income to many of the less well-off in our society. That is why the Bill needs to be put in that broader context.

We are concerned that the Bill is being promoted against a background of government policies that threaten the recovery. We had some indication of the difficulties just before Christmas. That coincided with adverse weather conditions, which was the reason given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer at the time and looks pretty threadbare now. One cause of anxiety about the recovery is the cuts in public expenditure, which will lead to significant job losses and a severe loss in confidence among employers and consumers. The Government propose—something that they criticised the previous Administration for—to increase national insurance contributions, but they have also increased VAT and have other strategies on the economy that are the source of great anxiety.

We look at the Bill in the context of the importance of growth in the economy and strengthening employment. Declining employment, when people lose their jobs, reduces demand severely in the economy and does enormous damage to the Government’s receipts from their various forms of revenue gathering. That is why we shall be using this Committee session for detailed examination of the Bill. However, we wanted to make this series of comments on whether Clause 1 should stand part because of its significance in the Government’s wider economic strategy, on which this side has very serious doubts. I hope that the Minister will be able to give some response. I beg to move.

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, for confirming that the Committee might move more expeditiously through this Bill than some other recent Bills.

I think that the noble Lord said that I would understand why he opposes Clause 1 standing part of the Bill, but I could not quite work it out and I am even more confused now that he says that the Opposition support the 1 percentage point increase, which is the import of Clause 1. However, I guess that I will eventually get used to the way that the House operates on these things. If the purpose of this discussion is to put the Bill into a bit of context, I am certainly very happy to do that.

The Government face the twin challenges of dealing with the inherited deficit and getting the economy growing again. In this wider context, the Bill goes to the heart of those challenges. I have repeatedly said that the recovery is likely to be choppy, and so it is proving. It is not easy to stimulate growth while bringing the deficit under control. The case of national insurance exemplifies the dilemma and the challenge. The 1 per cent increase in national insurance produces revenue of the order of £9 billion to £10 billion, which is necessary to deal with the deficit. Although we will put 70 to 80 per cent of the weight of deficit reduction on spending, nevertheless increases in taxation will bear part of the burden. Therefore, we start by accepting some of the changes that the previous Government proposed. We do not know what they had in mind on VAT. There were strong indications from Ministers in the previous Government that had they been returned to office they might well have increased VAT.

In the context of national insurance increases, offsetting measures that go hand in hand with the Bill—although they are not in the Bill—will increase the secondary threshold by £21 a week and the primary threshold and the lower profits limit by £24 a week. This will significantly offset the rises in the Bill. The increase in income tax personal allowances and the reductions in the basic rate limit and in the national insurance upper earnings and profits limit will, as a combined package, go a substantial way towards offseting the effect of the national insurance rises. Compared with the plans that we inherited, employers will be more than £3 billion better off next year, and that figure will rise in future years. As I said, we are fully compensating for the £9 billion increase in labour taxation that the rate rise represents.

The threshold rises will mean that the burden that the Government add to labour costs will lessen, and there will be more to share between employers and employees so that both will benefit. As a result of the way in which we are doing this, some of the benefit will be switched from national insurance contributions to income tax, so the net rise in national insurance contributions payments will be compensated for by a larger fall in income tax payments. Employers will be better off in respect of employees earning up to £20,000, while employers who have staff among the highest earners will pay more in national insurance contributions.

We are agreed that the 1 percentage point increase is appropriate. Where we diverge from the analysis of the noble Lord, Lord Davies, is in seeing the proposed increase as a significant tax on jobs at a time when the recovery needs to be encouraged and bolstered. That is why we have made the offsetting increases in limits, and the increase in the income tax personal allowance. I am grateful to the noble Lord for enabling us to start our discussion by putting the Bill in a wider context, because that is important. Having explored the issue, I hope that we will now move on to the detailed points that he intends to raise.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, apprenticeships are a good thing. I know that I will get nods from all sides of the Committee when I say that. We have made progress in recent years and it is important that we make greater progress. One dimension that ought to worry us all is unemployment. It is a potentially greater problem across wide ranges of our society but unemployment visited on young people is a particularly pernicious burden. We should not be surprised if we have difficulties with the attitudes of young people to our society if it is impossible for them, whatever their talents, to land a job. Apprenticeships are an important way in which people can come within the framework of work, and I suggest that our modern society will reflect rather more the significance of old-style apprenticeships.

When I say “old-style”, I refer to our great and glorious industrial past. A predecessor of mine in Oldham used to boast of there being 20,000 engineering employees in plants in the Manchester and Oldham area, and of hundreds of apprenticeships being available. Young people streamed out of education—in some cases, they might have been better advised to stay on to earn different qualifications—into guaranteed opportunities as apprentices in those big engineering works. Those days are long past; we all appreciate that. However, what may be becoming more significant in our society is the development of skills and crafts that mirror a period prior to the great industrialisation. I refer to small-scale businesses and crafts that often do not need many full-time employees to justify an apprentice who in his or her turn learns their role. That is of very great importance.

In all my time when I was greatly involved in further education, one thing that drove me to distraction was our inability to sell work experience in relation to the education experience in college. This was particularly true for young women. There might be a course leading to a career with the cleanest, most attractive technology imaginable—for example, providing the electronic back-up for pop groups, which should lighten up the heart of every youngster—but one would see engaging in those activities exactly the same proportions of men to women and boys to girls as we had in our traditional pattern in the world of work. We have to move away from that.

Apprenticeships, particularly those in small companies relating to the operations that we are defining in the Bill as worthy of support, potentially provide opportunities to break the mould of some dated employment practices. The Minister will tell me that this is a limited Bill and that the gains that will come from it are necessarily limited when viewed against the broader perspective of the Government’s policies. I recognise that all too clearly but the Bill nevertheless seeks to help a particular sector of small businesses. We should surely try to link that to the importance of developing apprenticeships in our society and, accordingly, I beg to move.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, apprenticeships are certainly important to this Government. Since the noble Lord, Lord Davies, has talked about them at some length, as he may know, it was National Apprenticeship Week three weeks ago. I met electronic engineering apprentices working on the rebuilding of Blackfriars station and its railway bridge. It was enormously encouraging to see the enthusiasm of those apprentices, who fully understood how their apprenticeships could be the start of a very worthwhile and remunerative career path and that they had a very supportive employer—a much bigger employer than in the scheme we are discussing. However, when I asked them whether their south London schools had encouraged them down this path, it was depressing to be told that there had been absolutely no mention of apprenticeships as a route to go down on the part of those schools. Therefore, I can see that there is work to be done on fully encouraging young people to take up apprenticeships, but it will not be for lack of government money. In 2011-12, we will provide £799 million for apprenticeships in the 16 to 19 age range, which is an increase from the £780 million in 2010-11. This money will fund 230,000 apprenticeship places for that age group. Therefore, the importance of apprenticeships is absolutely not lost on me.

Apprentices and their national insurance are covered by the Bill in the same way as any other employee. On previous amendments we have talked about the number of employees that small businesses typically take on. That is a critical point. The ceiling that we have left in the Bill of 10 employees provides sufficient headroom to take on apprentices. A feature of apprentices is that there is not normally the turnover that we talked about and it is not a question of part-time work. One or two apprentices being taken on by a business should be accommodated within that headroom limit of 10. We think that is a sufficient and appropriate way to accommodate what I completely agree is a critical part of the thrust needed to rebuild the nation’s workforce with the appropriate skills base for a thriving economy in the 21st century. With that explanation, I again ask that the noble Lord follow the convention of withdrawing his amendment.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that concerted response and, of course, I withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I have no doubt that Amendment 16 may cause a slight flurry in the dovecotes. I hope that the Administration recognise that we are seeking to guarantee the success of the scheme by offering protection for the administrative resources devoted to it. However, I also see significant figures in the Treasury, not least the Minister himself, looking somewhat askance at the fact that we might have in public statute a definition of who should do the job of the Inland Revenue with regard to this issue.

This is a probing amendment and I do not expect the Minister to accept it on this occasion, although in due course he may be persuaded. The intention is to identify one obvious factor. We fully recognise that the public service is under considerable challenge at present, that lots of posts will be lost and that an awful lot of people are under pressure. Yet this scheme not only requires additional resources but has particular complexity built into it. There is no doubt that the Bill would be regarded as a matter-of-course administrative exercise if it covered all regions of the country and the excepted areas were brought in. We all appreciate the complexity and difficulty of the position, and the amount of resources that will be required to ensure that the scheme works. Of course we share with the Minister the ambition that this will prove to be successful. However, there are clear administrative implications. I am sure that the Minister has thought about these very seriously and will give me all the reassurances that I could possibly want.

[Lord Sassoon]

It is a high bar to be able to give the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, all the reassurances that he could wish for, but I will attempt to give him some reassurance. The way in which HMRC is going about administering the holiday is that it has devised new processes for dealing with the holiday alongside the other day-to-day tasks in its casework. Additional steps have been incorporated already in its day-to-day caseworking, so it has not been necessary to employ new staff. The training has already been done. It shows how HMRC is able to adopt a flexible approach to allocating its resources as and when schemes in tax and national insurance change. HMRC staff have been engaged in this work since September. It would not be possible to use new employees, if that was being suggested. I understand the probing nature of this discussion but using new employees would not technically work as staff are already trained and running the scheme alongside their other responsibilities without the need to employ additional staff.

I hope that the noble Lord has the reassurances he seeks, such that he might be minded to withdraw Amendment 16, as I think he said that he would.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. I feel somewhat encouraged. I did not have the slightest doubt that the issue was expressed entirely in his own words and was not drafted for him by a senior official. If that had not been the case, I would have had a few doubts. I am very grateful for the response that he gave. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, we certainly agree that generally tax policy-making and the effects of tax measures should be more transparent. It is for that reason and because of the commitments given in another place, which I shall run through in a moment, that we do not believe that Amendment 17 is necessary. However, we completely share the commitment to transparency. Therefore, it may be helpful to the Committee if I echo the undertaking given by my honourable friend the Exchequer Secretary in another place to provide Parliament and the public with updates after the end of the tax year on the operation of the scheme, including information at regional level, although the precise requirements set out in the amendment could raise legal issues, for example on confidentiality of taxpayer data.

The factual report that we envisage would cover, regionally and nationally, the number of new businesses applying, the number of applications rejected, the number of qualifying employees for whom a holiday has been claimed and the amount claimed. The main difference between the commitment that the Government have made and this amendment is that the latter would require a constituency level breakdown even though the scheme is regional in England and will not cover every English constituency.

I remind the Committee that during proceedings in Committee in another place, amendments put forward with the aim of altering the holiday to a constituency basis were discussed at some length. My honourable friend the Exchequer Secretary said then that the Government do not believe that a constituency-based scheme is either appropriate or feasible. Since we have a regional scheme including the whole of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, it does not seem logical to provide a constituency level breakdown even if it was possible to do so. A regional scheme and a regional analysis at the end of each tax year will be available for scrutiny. Therefore, we do not think that it is necessary to enshrine that in an amendment to the Bill. I refer to Amendment 18—I said Amendment 17 at one point, and will come to that in a moment.

A technical point in the amendment refers to a budget for the scheme. For the avoidance of doubt, businesses can be confident that there is no budgetary constraint. The holiday will continue as proposed, regardless of the number of applicants. The expected costs of the scheme were set out in the policy-costing documentation at the time of the Budget last year.

Amendment 17 is aimed at providing flexibility to modify the holiday. As I have explained, the Government want to target available resources on the regions most dependent on public sector employment. We want to do so in the way that we have discussed at length with regard to the qualifying businesses, the numbers of employees and so on. However, introducing flexibility to change the details of the scheme, as proposed in the amendment, would increase uncertainty for those who might potentially benefit and would risk inhibiting decision-making for those who need to know with some certainty what the holiday permits. I hope that I have provided considerable reassurance on the questions of transparency and of the ability of the House to scrutinise the way that the scheme will operate in practice, and that noble Lords will withdraw their amendment.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

I am grateful to the Minister; half a loaf is better than none. The extent to which he defined how far he was able to go in response to the amendment was some consolation. I appreciate his remarks. I am well aware of the fact that no one in Committee is particularly concerned about constituencies. I am also well aware that the issue was raised in the other place, where concerns were extensive. The Minister will forgive me for seeking to identify that this might be the basis for a degree of transparency that would be welcomed by all those who are directly answerable to the electorate. I am grateful for his response and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Egypt: Mubarak Family Assets

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 16th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to my noble friend. I have explained two parts of the construct: the EU angle and the Proceeds of Crime Act. Of course, it is highly relevant that banks are obliged under their normal reporting rules to file relevant reports if they see any suspicious activities. That relates particularly to any engagement and due diligence that is necessary in relation to politically exposed persons. This is a good opportunity, prompted by my noble friend, to remind the banks of their obligations under those ongoing rules, which I know the banks take extremely seriously.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the House will have gained a great deal of reassurance from the Minister’s replies, particularly his first one, on this important topic. We all appreciate that additional requests could come in as the situation in Egypt evolves. Is the noble Lord able to give the House the full reassurance that the Government will be able to meet any request that should come in, given the degree of information that we have under the money laundering legislation?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for recognising that the Government are actively on the case. Of course, in relation to requests that come in, it is then up to the appropriate investigating authorities to do whatever is necessary to gather the evidence. Our agencies are well able to do this, although we should recognise that there are always enormous challenges in these cases in tracing assets if that is what is required.

National Insurance Contributions Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 2nd February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, we are talking about the estimates here of the effect of the national insurance holiday. They have been put through the OBR’s estimable machinery in the normal way that the OBR does. As to the basis for the figure of 800,000 jobs, the detail of how that estimate was made and the data sources used were set out in the policy costings document published alongside the June Budget. I believe that the basis on which it was done was entirely transparent.

There was also a question whether the £940 million might be an overestimate of the benefit. It is a number that represents money that these new employers would otherwise have paid, so it genuinely reduces their labour costs and benefits them by that amount.

Lastly, I address the question about monitoring the holiday. My noble friend Lord Newby and the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked about this, and the noble Lord, Lord Myners, may have touched on it. There will be monitoring and updates will be published after the end of the tax year on the operation of the scheme, including information at regional level. The Government envisage that the report will cover, from a regional and national perspective, the number of businesses applying and applications rejected, as well as the number of employees for whom a benefit is received and the amount claimed. This report will require information supplied by employers following the end of the tax year, and the first report will be published when the necessary information has been received, processed and checked to ensure that there is appropriate quality assurance. The Government aim to have these collated data and provisional findings published as soon as they become available, so it will be a comprehensive report on how the scheme is going.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

Of course, the House will be reassured by the points that the Minister has just made, but does he have any comment to make on the question asked about the up-to-date position? The scheme has been running for a while now and there must, therefore, be some analysis of progress.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I really think that it is too early yet to have reliable data of the sort that I have indicated, which will come in at the end of the year, to make any judgments about the success of the scheme. As I have explained, we will publish comprehensive regional and national data on the scheme. It would cause there to be a disproportionate burden on the employers and the scheme if we asked them to report with greater frequency. The Government will study the data when they come in to make sure that we understand fully the impact of the scheme.

Financial Services: Shareholder Engagement

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 19th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to my noble friend for reminding us of the importance of audit, particularly in relation to banks. It enables me to remind us all that the Economic Affairs Committee of your Lordships’ House will, I hope, play an important part in the broader ongoing debate about stewardship when it comes up with its current report into the role of auditors.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

When thousands of our fellow citizens are losing their jobs and millions are subject to a pay freeze and the bosses of industry are rewarding themselves very high increases indeed, is it not time that institutional and all shareholders had votes on the remuneration of executives and that the votes should be binding?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, these are important issues and they are precisely why my right honourable friend the Business Secretary has a current consultation out to look at the question of shareholder engagement in relation to the effective running of the capital markets.

Inflation

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 19th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I know that it is customary for me to answer the questions and for noble Lords to ask them but five letters were written by the Governor of the Bank of England to the previous Government and I do not recall the previous Government having done anything about them in response. It is quite right that the Governor of the Bank of England explains the situation, but the previous Government put in place and supported the framework that exists, exactly as we are doing, and it is an important part of that framework that the governor writes letters.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister will surely recognise that the Government take responsibility for the VAT rise and also take responsibility for the fact that the general inflation rate impacts with particular savagery, through government policies and cuts, on the poor and less well off in our society. In present circumstances, when our citizens are suffering and the growth rate is 2 per cent or below, surely the Government should express more than a little anxiety about the possibility of a rise in interest rates.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I could not agree more with the starting premise of the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham. The Government are concerned about the hard-pressed, hard-saving, hard-working low earners in this country. That is why, in April this year, 880,000 people will be taken out of taxation altogether. That is also why 23 million taxpayers will each receive back £170 compared with the plans of the previous Government. That is an absolute recognition of the fact that the Government understand how low-income families are suffering and are doing something about it.

Deficit Reduction

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 18th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister has made clear that he expects to reap the rewards from Labour’s investment and make profits in due course. Will he be a little clearer to the House about the banks? Will the Government introduce criteria on the effectiveness of banks in lending, for example, and even, perhaps, control of bank bonuses?

[Lord Sassoon]

Well, my Lords, it has come to a pretty pass when the noble Lord characterises the investment in the banks as some sort of voluntary investment to make a return. It was necessary to bail out and save the British economy because the previous model of financial regulation had completely failed. Under the stewardship of the new Government, we will do our best to get back the investment, and hopefully more, that was necessarily put in by the previous Government. That is what we are doing.

Individual Savings Accounts

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 20th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, without wishing at all to cast aspersions on the quality of AIM companies, it is nevertheless the fact that you can come to the AIM market without a trading record and with no minimum number of shares in public hands. Also, the UK Listing Authority does not usually vet the prospectus of AIM-listed companies and there is no minimum capitalisation requirement. Therefore, there are different requirements and obligations on AIM companies from those that apply to listed companies.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, will the Minister recognise that, with his reply, he has disappointed a wide range of opinion in the House, including— to complete the position—Her Majesty’s Official Opposition? He will know that earlier this year we were looking positively towards this issue. We would have thought that the present Government would adopt something more than just a straightforward negative stance on a situation where it is quite clear that, with SIPPs being able to invest in these companies, there is a good case that ISA investors should be able to as well.

[Lord Sassoon]

I did not want to be controversial in the week running up to the holidays. I pointed out that ISAs were introduced by the last Government and that they have been a successful channel for savings. I gently point out, however, that the last Government had from 1999 to May 2010 if they had wanted to make AIM shares eligible for ISAs, but they chose—rightly, I think—not to do so. We have not taken a decade to mull over this, but we have thought about it carefully in the last few months.

Banking: Liability.

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 7th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am happy to confirm that in everything the Government do, we put a major store on openness and transparency. Indeed, we will bear that in mind in our approach to financial regulation in future.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, does the Minister not recognise the great anxiety about this situation? He says that “we”—I presume that he therefore speaks on behalf of the Government—have no knowledge of the report either. This is a totally unsatisfactory situation when lessons need to be learnt about such an important development. Will he not therefore look at the extent to which Her Majesty’s Government can emphasise to the FSA the desirability of making more public the position it has taken up?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, that is what we are doing, but we are acting within the constraints of the Financial Services and Markets Act, which was brought in by the previous Government in 2000.

Bankruptcy

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 7th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

I completely agree with my noble friend. That is indeed it. I was looking at the Oxford English Dictionary this morning and I saw that one definition of “bankrupt” is,

“one who has brought himself into debt by reckless expenditure or riotous living”.

I would not presume to accuse the previous Government of riotous living.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the successive attempts by the noble Lord to define bankruptcy have looked quite pathetic.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

Well, his latest definition would indicate that every mortgage holder in Britain was bankrupt because they have substantial debts. The issue is whether these debts can be managed. He must draw a distinction between the situation of Ireland at the present time, or of Greece in recent times, and that of the United Kingdom, where, as has been indicated, our debt repayment is over a 14-year period.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, leaving aside the fact that the mortgage payers of this country would be somewhat upset to be thought of as having brought it upon themselves by reckless expenditure, the point is, as the IMF succinctly put it in its report of 27 September 2010:

“The consolidation plan and implementation of early measures to tackle the deficit—one of the highest in the world in 2010—greatly reduces the risk of a costly loss of confidence in fiscal sustainability and will help rebalance the economy”.

That was what the IMF had to say.

Taxation: Deficit Reduction

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Thursday 28th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I will try to be very careful with my wording and simply agree absolutely with what my noble friend has said.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister is responsible for the efficiency of his department and he will know the calamitous position that Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs was in earlier this year with regard to the settlement of our fellow citizens’ taxation matters. How does the Government's proposed determination to tackle tax evasion and avoidance square with a determination to cut 13,000 posts in HMRC over the next few years?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I have already explained to the House that we are targeting considerable extra resources where it matters in order to get in extra revenue. That is critical. The noble Lord talks about the calamitous position, but where did the calamitous position arise from? This is the result of an exercise to bring forward and modernise the reconciliation systems in our income tax system, which has been sorely needed for quite a few years.

Pensions

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Thursday 21st October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, my understanding is that, thanks to work being done by the Association of British Insurers and others and the introduction of a new electronic transfer system, the actual time taken to make the transfer has come down from 35 days to 11 days. However, if there are other ways of making the transfer process easier, we will of course look at them.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, is not the real problem for the foreseeable future that, with interest rates low, the returns on annuities will be well below people’s expectations? Could not the Government think more radically about this in the longer term? Could we not think of following the pattern adopted by some other European Governments on annuities, whereby people would be able to purchase government bonds at a slightly better rate of interest than obtains at present and at the same time contribute to the Government in the shorter term sums which would help the Exchequer?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, low interest rates are vital to the growth of the economy. In that context, it is important that people are able to choose between a wide variety of savings products. As well as making more flexible people’s choices about their retirement savings, the Government offer not only the opportunity to invest in gilt-edged securities but a range of products through NS&I.

Banks: Business Lending

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 28th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, my noble friend has raised this theme on a number of occasions. It is for the Monetary Policy Committee of the Bank of England to decide how it operates the asset purchase facility—so-called quantitative easing. What we are talking about this morning is how we increase the supply of net lending by banks to United Kingdom businesses. As I said, the Government announced in the Budget a range of measures and have set out an important discussion document, to which I hope noble Lords who wish to will contribute their views by 20 September.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister has referred to the Green Paper on two occasions. Is he aware that an official identified it as very green because it reflected the inability of the Business Secretary to convince the Chancellor to adopt a more constructive approach to this issue? Does this not reflect usual tensions within the coalition? Does the noble Lord also recognise that the Budget has been received in such a way as to reduce the level of demand in this country rather than increase it?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, it is not very productive to reduce everything to trying to find chinks of light between different parts of the coalition. It would be more helpful to have a substantive discussion about the Green Paper. It was published under the joint signatures of the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Chancellor of the Exchequer and sets out a wide-ranging agenda of possible measures to increase lending to business. As I said, I encourage anybody with views on it to contribute to the debate over the summer.

EU: Financial Assistance to Member States

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 19th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I fear that I will not be able to persuade the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, of what I am going to say. However, there is no question of any bailout. The one thing I agree with him on is that Article 125 does indeed rule out any bailout. However, no bailout has been proposed or implemented under Article 122(2) or any other article because what have been proposed are loans, which are fully permitted under Article 125.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, given the range of opinions that exist on the coalition Benches, from Europhiles to Eurosceptics, would it be possible for the Minister to prevail on the Leader of the House to provide a little niche corner for the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, as he speaks neither for these Benches nor on behalf of these Benches, so he should not speak from them?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am not sure what the question is or what it has to do with Article 125, but we were all entertained by it.

Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Contribution to Costs of Special Resolution Regime) Regulations 2010

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 19th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, the Financial Services Compensation Scheme, which I refer to here as the FSCS, was established under the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 to compensate customers of authorised financial services firms when those firms were in default.

When the financial crisis broke in 2007, paying compensation under the scheme was the only way to protect depositors. The Banking Act 2009 set up new arrangements that allow for the resolution of failing banks and building societies in a number of ways, including the transfer of all or part of the business of the failing institution to another institution or into temporary public ownership. These transfers can include the transfer of the retail deposits; that is, deposits held by persons who are eligible for FSCS compensation. The effect is that those depositors are protected not by the payment of compensation under the FSCS but by having new accounts with a different bank or building society.

Transferring a business can involve a cost. A receiving institution will normally expect to receive payment for taking on liabilities such as deposits in excess of any assets that are transferred. However, if a failing institution’s retail deposits are part of the business transferred to a stronger bank or building society, the FSCS will not need to pay compensation to the depositors concerned.

It is appropriate, therefore, for the FSCS to contribute to the cost of using the special resolution regime to resolve a failing bank or building society. It would have been spared the potentially large cost of compensating depositors. However, there has to be a limit on that contribution, which should obviously be the cost that the FSCS would have incurred in paying compensation to depositors.

The Banking Act 2009 inserted a new section into the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000, usually referred to as FSMA, to give the Treasury the power to require the FSCS to make a contribution capped in the way that I have described. It also gave the Treasury the power to make regulations to deal with the detailed points that would arise. Regulations under this power were made in 2009, shortly after commencement of the Act, to allow the FSCS to contribute to the costs of the resolution of the Dunfermline Building Society.

However, it was quickly realised that these new FSMA powers did not get some of the detail quite right. In particular, it was found that no account could be taken of the time that it would take to complete a bank resolution and, therefore, of the interest costs that would be incurred in financing the initial payments to receiving institutions while waiting for the proceeds of the disposal of other assets of the failed institution. Equally, no allowance could be made for the interest costs that the FSCS would have to pay on the borrowing needed to finance a compensation payout. These matters could not be addressed by making revised regulations under the original power provided in 2009. Amending legislation was therefore included in the Financial Services Act 2010 to correct the FSMA powers in these two respects.

The regulations now before us complete the process by making use of the new powers to put the necessary detailed provisions in place to provide for interest costs to be included in the resolution expenses and to calculate the limit on the FSCS contributions to those expenses. They do this by requiring the Treasury to keep detailed accounts of the resolution costs actually incurred, of the recoveries actually made and of the costs and recoveries that the FSCS would have made in the hypothetical scenario in which the failed institution became insolvent and compensation was paid to depositors. Interest is then added to the outstanding balances of these accounts on a daily basis and any contributions that the FSCS pays are deducted. Finally, closing balances are calculated when the resolution ends and a final contribution to resolution costs is calculated and paid—or, if the FSCS has already paid too great a contribution, a refund will be calculated and paid.

To enable the Treasury to do this, the regulations also provide for the FSCS to estimate the amount and timing of the compensation that it would have paid in the hypothetical scenario. They also provide for an independent valuer to estimate the amount and timing of the recoveries that the FSCS would have made from the winding-up of the failed institution in that scenario. There is also detailed provision on making interim payments, on referring disputes to the Upper Tribunal, on the appointment of independent valuers and on the independent verification of the accounts.

The regulations also include transitional provisions to ensure that action taken under the previous regulations is properly allowed for. The previous regulations are then revoked. The powers inserted by the Financial Services Act 2010 provide that interest can be applied to accounts kept in respect of the Dunfermline Building Society under the new regulations as from 19 November 2009. I beg to move.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his clear exposition of the implications of the regulations and for bringing to our deliberations a new term, FSMA. We struggled in the past with the Financial Services and Markets Act, using the full phraseology until we were breathless and even blue in the face. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Newby, who participated in many of those debates will join me in appreciating the fact that we now have a short official term for referring to the Act. At least we will delight in that.

I reassure the Minister that, whereas we might have had a little Sturm und Drang over the previous measure, on this one all is sweetness and light, largely because the Minister is describing the implications of the regime set up under the banking legislation that the previous Administration introduced and the crucial question with regard to the costs of the special resolution regime.

I noted carefully, as I know the Minister and his officials will have done, the returns from the consultation. It must always be manna from heaven for the Minister when the consultation indicates that there is no consensus among those who have been consulted on some important items, because that gives maximum freedom to act. I would only say that, where the Government have acted in those terms, we are content with the position that has been broadly identified.

We appreciate that we live in an age of openness and accountability. We accept the point that is indicated in the Minister’s speech and the Explanatory Notes that the question of audit with regard to the Bank of England and its role is very limited, for all the reasons that we know. However, we appreciate that it is important that all those involved with this situation are satisfied that value for money is achieved. The Government have indicated that that is their objective and the Opposition are scarcely going to deny the validity of that position.

I emphasise the obvious fact that the calculation relating to the costs that would have been involved if there had been a bailout, in the event that the institution had actually folded, is difficult. There will always be more than a little quibbling about that situation but, as the Minister will know, we are fully in approval of the broad principles behind these regulations and I am happy to support the Government.

Child Trust Funds (Amendment No. 3) Regulations 2010

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 19th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate. Of course, the Minister will have the joy of the last word and the necessity of replying to the specifics of my amendment. However, I assume that he is going to contribute to the debate before we conclude and I extend him the courtesy of doing just that. If he wishes to rise now, I shall of course defer to him.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am grateful to those who have taken part in today’s debate. A number of noble Lords have spoken eloquently about the advantages of the child trust fund, and I agree with much of what they said, although others have pointed out that, even setting aside the issue of affordability, the child trust fund is not a perfect vehicle. However, as I said earlier, given the unprecedented budget deficit that we face, the question is whether government payments into the fund remain affordable, and I am afraid that the Government believe they simply are not.

I turn to a number of the specific points that were raised. I start with a point made on both sides of the House by a number of your Lordships, including my noble friends Lord Naseby and Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, and the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, concerning whether the wrapper or unique number would continue to allow people to save through the child trust fund mechanism. Many other speakers suggested that the wrapper should remain available to parents, even once government contributions had stopped, or that some other, new form of tax-free savings account for children should be put in place. To reiterate what I said earlier, the Government are considering this question carefully and I am sure that it is one of the major issues that will be discussed later this week by my honourable friend the Financial Secretary when he meets representatives of the industry. I thought that the contributions of my noble friends who expressed their understanding of why the CTF had to go were particularly telling.

I shall pick up some of the other points. I suppose that it is good knockabout stuff to try and pick out what people said in manifestos and to compare that with the coalition agreement, and we will live with that game for some time to come. In response to the noble Lords, Lord Davies of Oldham and Lord McKenzie of Luton, I say that it is indeed the case that both the Conservative and Liberal Democrat manifestos set out an intention to reduce spending on the child trust fund, as did the coalition agreement and the programme for government. We have since then looked at the options and the Government believe that it is right to stop the government contributions entirely as that will make the greatest contribution towards deficit reduction.

We then had a number of contributions—including from the noble Lords, Lord Davies of Oldham and Lord McKenzie, and from my noble friends Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts and Lord Blackwell—about who had done what on savings over the past few years. I noted that the noble Lord, Lord Davies, talked of this as an onslaught on savings while, on the other hand, my noble friends talked about the hammer blows inflicted on savings by the previous Labour Government. I do not think that this is the time to go into who has done what to whom.

Some of my noble friends have pointed out that what the previous Government did to support ISAs was important, and that if it was affordable, the child trust fund initiative had an important role to play. I think that we would all agree that the recent level of savings has been too low. It is the current Government’s intention to foster a culture of personal responsibility and better financial planning to improve individuals’ independence over their lifetime, particularly in planning for retirement. We will measure the policies on savings against the coalition’s three principles of freedom, fairness and responsibility, while making sure that such measures are affordable and effective. Attention has already been drawn to the fact that the Budget announced a number of measures which will take the first steps—I stress, first steps—in meeting these aims, such as the annual financial health check and an end to the effective requirement to annuitise pension savings at 75. That is an important reform that has not been mentioned this afternoon.

There was then a particular stress—again from the noble Lords, Lord Davies and Lord McKenzie, and from the noble Lord, Lord Morgan—on whether we were hitting low-income families and how this was fair. They did not draw attention to the reforms that we are making to the tax credit system. We are tackling the deficit in a way that is fair and ensuring that tax credits, which are an important part of this construct, are targeted at those who need them most. I remind noble Lords that the Government will freeze child benefit to help fund very significant increases in child tax credit and will invest around £3 billion in the child element over the next two years. Although we are making significant savings to reduce the deficit, we can be sure that this will not lead to a negative measurable increase in child poverty over the next couple of years.