Police and Crime Commissioner Elections (Welsh Forms) Order 2012

Debate between Lord Roberts of Llandudno and Lord Elystan-Morgan

Monday 29th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

My Lords, I join with the condemnation of the noble Lord, Lord Touhig—apart from his final remark, which I do not accept at all—and the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. This is a shambolic way in which to undertake any kind of election. We have it on good authority that the ballot papers will be going out within the next 48 hours but it is only tonight that we will say, “Yes, let us have the bilingual papers”. How the staffs in the various local authorities will manage to do this over the next day or two is beyond my comprehension. Not only is this part of the election process at fault but the whole issue has been conducted in haste and has not been thoroughly thought through.

As to the postal ballot papers that are being issued, in the previous Parliament I campaigned to ensure that members of the Armed Forces then in Iraq and in Afghanistan now received ballot papers to allow them to take part in any election. There is not a chance that they will be able to do that now. There is something seriously wrong with our democracy when we deny people who are fighting for our freedoms the right to vote for the party of their choice.

To divert a little—I make no apology for this—how will candidates access the electors in their constituencies? Greater Manchester has 2 million people—I do not know whether that is the number of voters—so how are the candidates standing there going to get in touch with those 2 million people? Liverpool has 1 million people and North Wales has about 500,000 people: who will be able to contact these people with details of the candidates and their policies; how will they get through? There is no free post but a polling card was sent out about two weeks ago. That could have been used to provide at least a page from each of the candidates standing in the various constituencies—as they do in London mayoral elections—but nothing came.

No one will be able to say that this is a fair election. They may say, “It will be on the internet” but 8 or 9 million people have no access to the internet. How will those people know who is standing, which party they belong to and what their proposals are for policing in their particular area? It could have been so different.

Only the wealthy or well-funded candidates in North Wales—which is only a small electorate—could possibly afford £50,000 to mail people in their areas. No ordinary person—certainly no independent person—will be able to afford this. So some candidates will have access because they have money; others will be unable to afford access. Would there not be a case for a legal challenge to the results when they are announced? Someone will have to think that through thoroughly.

While I am delighted that at long last we are to have Welsh ballot papers and that a prototype is in our briefing, so much else is wrong. This is a total shambles which does not reflect on the people of the areas it is supposed to represent. As to the point about this being approved at the last hour, we cannot call for the election to be declared invalid now but certainly we need to go through it thoroughly in the future.

I support what has been said. I am glad that there has been at least an acknowledgement of Welsh—which, of course, is one of the great languages of the western world—but we will try to ensure that discounting us without a thought will not happen again.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, I endorse with enthusiasm the chagrin that has been announced by each of the three previous noble Lords who have spoken in this matter. I have no doubt that, at best, it is an embarrassment for the Government; at worst, it could well be a disaster. In saying that, I exculpate completely the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, in this matter, and the new Minister, whom I congratulate on her position.

The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, has already shown himself a person of great sensitivity and sincerity in relation to Wales and has shown a considerable chivalry as well. He wears the gown, as it were, of defending counsel in this case. I know something of what that role sometimes involves.

There is no doubt that disaster lies very close to our elbow tonight. If this legislation is not carried by five o’clock on Wednesday, which is less than 48 hours away, it will be impossible for these Welsh forms to be part of the election. There is no dispute about that. If that can be done—and I have no intention of dividing the House; nor, I am sure, has any other noble Lord—it will have been a very close-run thing.

However, there are lessons that we have to consider in this connection. This is a tale of two statutes: one is the Welsh Language Act 1967. The combination of Sections 2 and 3 of that Act mean that anything that is done in the Welsh language has equal validity as if it had been done in the English language. The blade was pushed a little further by legislation passed in 1993 and thereafter, but the basic principle was established in that Act. I am very proud indeed to have been a Member of the other place at the time.

National Assembly for Wales (Representation of the People) (Amendment) Order 2010

Debate between Lord Roberts of Llandudno and Lord Elystan-Morgan

Wednesday 1st December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, there are two good reasons why one should welcome this order. The first is that the House is not experiencing any problem as far as seating is concerned. The second is that, for once in the history of Wales, we have a development that seems to be applauded generally and totally by everyone. That is almost unique in a land of such fissiparous divisions as my own land and nation of Wales. The Electoral Commission and all those bodies responsible for these amendments are to be commended on the way in which they have conducted themselves. They have consulted fully and have managed to achieve a rapport among all bodies. All that is involved in the order are amendments that are consequential on legislation that this House and the other place have passed over the past four years.

Having said that, perhaps I may, with the indulgence of the House, take one minute to mention other matters. No one can speak of elections in Wales without being aware of the vulturous presence of legislation that will in a few months affect Wales greatly. I refer specifically to the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill, which will deprive Wales of one-quarter of its constituencies. That is an immense proportion. Reducing the number of constituencies of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland by 50 will mean a reduction of one-thirteenth. If my mathematics is anywhere near right, that is about 7.8 per cent of the totality. In Wales, it will be 25 per cent.

Many people may say, “Well, come off it, you have managed to have this advantage for many decades. Has not the time come when you should surrender this advantage?”. That exact point was put to the right honourable Kenneth Clarke as Home Secretary when he was conducting the parliamentary commissions Bill through the House of Commons in 1992. He said, “I am not having it. Wales is a land, a nation. There is a constitutional arrangement here, which I respect and am determined to uphold”. Wales is no less a land, a nation, now than it was in 1992.

If the House wishes to have a sleepless and nightmarish experience over the next few hours, one need only contemplate the possibilities of what will happen not in May 2011 but in May 2015—assuming that Parliament will by then have passed an Act making the life of Parliament a solid five years, no more and no less. It will mean that the elections to the Welsh Assembly will coincide exactly with the elections to Westminster, and people will be in constituency A of the House of Commons but constituency B of the Welsh Assembly. It is, as I say, a wholly terrifying and nightmarish consideration. But that is not strictly relevant to this issue.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

My Lords, I appreciate the words of both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, both of whom I consider as colleagues and as friends. However, looking at this order, I am not quite as appreciative of it as others who have spoken. There is some concern that the order distances us from local areas and local people. It is true that you can have one agent for the whole of Wales, but it means that the Wales campaign is centralised, not localised—or it can be. The noble Baroness, Lady Gale, knows more about this than I do. So you could have a central campaign that does not reflect local interests.

There was a time when I was a young candidate and every ward had its own committee room on election day and every constituency had its central committee room—its swyddfa ganolog. Then there is the region. Yes, you can get on in the region, but remember that Welsh regions, like Scottish regions, are quite massive sometimes; they can stretch for many miles. The agent is far away, even at a regional level, from the local activity. We could possibly accept this, but some may remember when we had not one agent for Wales, but we had subagents covering so many areas of a constituency. To have an office located anywhere in Wales could present difficulties in the organisation of election days and electoral officers. It needs to be very well thought out.

The region-less ballot paper—the new one that has been presented to us—is far less cluttered than previously because, as has been stated, no candidate’s name is printed. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, suggested that Scotland has the same kind of ballot paper. Is this the first time in the United Kingdom that we have had a ballot paper with just the party’s name but no candidates? Is this a step in the right direction? I can understand why, because many parties—my own included, I am sure—have in the past nominated, say, 12 candidates for each region. Let us say that you have six or seven different parties contesting and most of them give you a dozen candidates. Wow, that ballot paper will be very cluttered. But to go further in a different direction and simply say Conservative, Labour, Plaid Cymru, Liberal Democrats, Greens, without giving any indication of who is the lead candidate, would cut away the personal link. It makes the regional candidates second-class Assembly Members, because they have not been elected as individuals, even though, as the noble Baroness mentioned, you can have a list of them in the polling station. When I go into a polling station—and I am allowed to vote at some elections, including the Welsh Assembly election—I do not look at the posters, I just look at the ballot paper I vote on.

I would ask—and other people are thinking this way—that we do not put 12 names for each party, but that we print the four top names selected by each party on the ballot paper of a regional list. At least we would have a personal involvement. People will have some idea about who they are going to return, not just someone who they have never heard of and whose name is totally strange to them. I speak to the Minister as a very dear friend of mine. I hope it is not too late to amend this order. I suggest we have four names—it might be three, it might be five—so that we keep that personal link with the regional list members as well as with the constituency members.

What you are doing also is that you are increasing the authority of a party and making it far superior to the individual candidate. Is this a danger? I think it is a dangerous step—a very dangerous step. We do not have to take that step—it is not too late—because we can amend it to include the lead names for each party.

I am more than happy with the constituency ballot paper. It is clear and the sort of ballot paper that we are more or less used to. Mind you, there is one great sadness. You are asked to put an X in one of the boxes. I hope the time comes when we do not ask for Xs but for 1, 2,3, and 4 and we have a proportional system.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, in so far as that particular specimen ballot paper is concerned, has the noble Lord noticed that all the names used were Anglo-Saxon ones—there was not a Jones, an Evans, a Morgan or a Williams? It may very well be that this was done, as lawyers would say, ex abundanti cautela—out of an abundance of caution; I must say it struck me as rather strange that there was not a single Welsh name among them.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

I of course defer in this to the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan; he not only has one name on the ballot paper, he has two. I am reduced to the very inferior status of a Roberts, but, as a Roberts, I say, yes, I welcome the constituency ballot paper. Then I ask the Minister to look again at the absence of names on the regional ballot paper. I think that we may have to accept the one agent for the whole of Wales, although I still remember the ward committee rooms with great affection.

National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Housing and Local Government) Order 2010

Debate between Lord Roberts of Llandudno and Lord Elystan-Morgan

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Grand Committee

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, for jumping to the pulpit ahead of me. Perhaps I may suggest a sermon. I look to the Epistle to the Hebrews, in which we hear about a race that is run quite slowly sometimes. This race has been run slowly: it has taken a long time to get the orders. I am told that for education 18 new powers have been transferred to the Assembly but that there has been only one new power for housing. I am told that most of them do not come from legislative competence orders but that 60 per cent of them come from Bills.

Speaking of the sermon, I feel that I am surrounded by a mighty cloud of witnesses, of people from various departments—for example, the Department for Health, the Home Office, the Welsh Office and others—who have worked at this over many years, which I appreciate. I know them and I call them my good friends, on whichever side of the House they may sit. They have battled away on the Welsh scene over many years.

It is a privilege to have two of my own party colleagues on either side of me. My noble and learned friend Lord Wallace has led in the Scottish Parliament and my noble friend Lord German has been the Deputy in the Assembly in Cardiff. I am lost in this place today. Since 1931, my Liberal colleagues have sat on opposition Benches. Suddenly, we are transferred to the government Benches. We are just settling in. It makes such a difference and it gives us the opportunity to stir things up as regards some of these legislative competence orders.

The hope is—I am sure that this is general to all parties—that in the spring the referendum on additional powers for the Assembly in Wales will result in a yes vote throughout Wales. I think that we have to do it. For one thing, it will save a lot of time and money on these orders coming here and we will be able to devote our time to other issues that possibly deserve more time than they get at present.

Two tests should be applied to this order, as to any other order, according to the Government of Wales Act 2006. The issues to be passed to the National Assembly must correspond to the executive functions of the Welsh Assembly Government—we are not able to introduce anything else—and must relate solely to Wales. Scotland led the way in the settlement that was reached. We have been saying, “If only we had the same powers as Scotland”. We are moving on this issue, but, as I say, the rate is slower in Wales. However, it will speed up after the spring. In Scotland, people knew which powers they had and which powers they did not have. In Wales, we have just kept on asking, “Please can you include such a power and such a responsibility?”. I am sure that this is not the correct way to say it, but we have been opting in, whereas Scotland knows which powers it does not have at present.

This housing order is important. It is a part of devolution in Wales. It gives us the authority to deal with housing matters in Wales. It has been mentioned that we could look at the sale of council houses or social houses. Like many other places, Wales has the problem that the situation differs from county to county, even from parish to parish. In some areas, the housing situation is so grave that it might be necessary—possibly not—to look again at the reasonableness of selling council houses. That could well be a necessity, particularly given the present crisis in which some people are losing their homes. If it gets to that desperate state, we in Wales will have the authority to say, “For the time being let us look at this area and this need”.

The order will add substantially to the powers in Wales. The Assembly Government must decide how they will use those powers. That is what government is about and what devolution is about. It is not that we keep on saying, “Don’t do this, don’t do that”. However, we have the authority in health, education, public transport and now housing to decide our own agenda. It must be within the Assembly’s competence. This order marks a significant move in the development of the Assembly’s powers. Therefore, we on these Benches wish it well. We wish the Assembly Members who will exercise this discretion all the wisdom and all the powers that they need to meet the needs of people in different parts of Wales.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, I will detain the Grand Committee for only a very few moments. I, too, join everybody else in congratulating the Minister on his first foray into Welsh affairs in this Committee. I wish him every happiness and every success for the future. I agree very much with the precept that was articulated by the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands. We are not here to consider the basic merits of these devolved matters; we are here to say whether the procedures of devolution set out so clearly in Part 3 of the 2006 Act are properly adhered to. I say that because, like more than one Member of this Committee, I have heard it argued here over the past two or three years that there seems to be some onus of proof on whoever seeks to justify a measure of this nature to show that it has a fundamental benefit for the people of Wales. That is not what devolution is about. If we were to apply such a test, we would be going contrary to the principles set out in the 2006 Act in Parts 3 and 4.

I wholeheartedly support the measures. Indeed, having said that we should not consider them, I would say that they have every merit. In this respect, if ever there was a devolvable issue in relation to Welsh matters it must be in relation to housing or local government. We are dealing with a situation in which there are so many distinctive Welsh nuances that it cries out for devolution. The executive devolution took place a long time ago, soon after 1964, when the Welsh Office was set up. It is only right and proper that there should be primary legislative devolution to attach itself to that.

I take the point made by more than one Member of the Committee that nothing that we do here on these LCOs creates one word of legislation. All that we do is give a passport for legislation to take place in another place. We peg out an area and say to the Welsh Assembly that, now that it has asked for it, within that defined area it can build a legislative edifice. I am not sure how many Measures have come directly from LCOs; I suspect that it is about a dozen, with about half a dozen from other sources.

I have only one other thing to add. I thank whoever was responsible for the Explanatory Memorandum. It is one of the very best that I have read in relation to any legislation, but particularly in relation to these matters.