Visas: Visitors from Peru

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Monday 16th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)]

My Lords, we cannot hear the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, in any meaningful sense, so I suggest we move on to the next speaker.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, responding to the report that the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, referred to from the international relations committee, on the United Kingdom and Latin America, the Government accepted the assertion of the committee that there is huge commercial potential in a relationship with Latin American countries. Indeed, they went further, saying that

“Latin America has huge potential for trade and investment with the UK. As we leave the EU, we … have been increasing our focus on Latin America.”

Given that that is absolutely contemporary, would it not be beneficial from that point of view to have a more flexible and less restrictive regime? Will the Minister—who I am sure is far more influential than she admitted—press for that in any future review?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

Since the noble Lord asked so nicely, I will certainly take that back. I do not disagree with him at all that Latin America has great potential. I went to Mexico last year and I know that the Foreign Secretary has had talks with Peru. There is great untapped potential.

UK Terrorism Threat Level

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Tuesday 10th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that question. He will agree that we have consistently provided the PSNI with additional resources to tackle the terrorism threat. In addition to funding for the Department of Justice in Northern Ireland, the UK Government have invested significantly in the PSNI, with more than £160 million invested in the 2015 Parliament.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, I too express my sympathy for the families grieving in France, Austria and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, reminded us, Kabul. This is a global struggle.

I want to press the Minister a little more on the question of resources. In my view, JTAC was correct to raise the threat level. It was precautionary, of course, but in view of what we have seen on the continent it was wise and prudent to do so. Obviously, this requires an additional operational dimension. The Minister said that there are 6,000 more police officers, although that is 14,000 short of where we were when her previous boss, Theresa May, was Home Secretary.

No doubt the Minister will also say that it is a question of operational deployment. Is it possible for the envelope of resources to be increased, either automatically or on request, commensurate with the increase in the threat level? If not, should it not be automatic that when the threat level increases, the resources to deal with it increase?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I hope that I outlined clearly the police’s ability to request police grants. The purpose of the grants is not particularly prescriptive, but they can be sought for unexpected pressures. In a crisis, it has not been unusual for the police to request additional grants. I have talked about redeployment, so I will not talk about it again. The noble Lord knows about that.

This is in the context of the recognition that it is not just the demand on the police that has changed over the past few years in relation to the number of additional police officers; the type of threat that we face now is entirely different from the type of threat that we faced, say, 20 years ago. Now, we see cyber threats and other types of threat.

Covid-19: UK Border Health Measures

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Thursday 4th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it is advised to have a form completed before arrival at the airport. I understand that Border Force will check whether people have forms completed and will enforce if people do not. I assume—though not with absolute certainty—that forms will be available at the airport should people not have filled them in before they get there. There will be strict enforcement of the filling in of these forms.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, I would like to probe a little further the scientific basis of this decision. The Government keep telling us that they are being led by the science and scientists but, as I understand it, the scientific advisory group was not even consulted over this specific decision before it was taken, which is why there has been so much criticism from that quarter. Today, for instance, Professor Robert Dingwall said there was a need

“to get the level in this country significantly further down”

to ensure that quarantining travellers would be “a useful measure”. I have one specific question for the Minister: was the scientific advisory group consulted over this specific decision before it was taken? If not, what scientific legitimacy can the Minister and the Government now claim for the decision?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it is important to make clear at this stage that we are led by the science. SAGE, the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies, advises the Government, and it is for the Government to make policy decisions.

Police: Funding

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Thursday 26th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the police will deploy their resources in the area that they think is most important in their communities. The police have always been operationally independent of government and it is vital that that continues. They are best placed to make those decisions. We understand the pressures that the police and PCCs are under. That is why my right honourable friend in the other place, the Minister for Policing, is engaging with local forces to make sure that they have the resources and the capability that they need.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

Will the Minister confirm not only the operational independence of the police but the fact that community relationships with the police are an essential component of crime detection?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally agree with the noble Lord—clearly, he has vast experience in this area. That trust between police and local communities is absolutely vital.

Brexit: Crime Prevention

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Thursday 30th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I too pay tribute to the people who lost their lives last week and who still lie in hospital injured. However, I take exception to what the noble Lord says. The letter says that both sides would cope, but our co-operation would be weakened. We want and we believe that the EU wants security to be part of a new partnership. That is why it is part of the negotiation. The “threat” was not a threat at all—it was a matter of fact.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the best way to enhance our capability in countering crime and counterterrorism and the ability to share that with our European allies would be to give full support to the Investigatory Powers Act?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is absolutely right. Co-operation going forward will be crucial in all the areas that he talks about.

Terrorist Attack: Response

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Thursday 23rd February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, of course prevention is always better than aid, assistance or cure. In view of the recent revelations about the threat posed by some of the people who came back from Guantanamo, do the Government now regret having watered down control orders and other supervisory measures immediately on coming to power in 2010?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, some of the work that the Government have done in terms of disrupting journeys through the Prevent programme has been very effective, both in preventing people going to Syria and in preventing people’s minds being poisoned by certain ideologies which run contrary to our rule of law.

Child Refugees

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Thursday 9th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Yes, the people to whom my noble friend refers in the region are the most vulnerable people on the globe. We do not close our doors to people who genuinely seek refuge in this country. Up to September last year, we gave asylum or other forms of leave to 8,000 children.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

Will the Minister explain to us where the figure of 350 came from; what consultations and calculations underpin it; and whether her request that others volunteer from the local authorities means that, if such representations and offers are made, the Government will revise that figure of 350?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord asks a valuable question. We do not stop consulting local authorities. Of course if local authorities or community sponsorship groups were to come forward, we would certainly consider that. The figure of 350—in fact, it was 400—came from local authorities. We have revised it down to 350 because, if some of the family cases break down, the children will need local authority care and we need some capacity to provide it. Our consultation with local authorities is ongoing.

European Union: Freedom of Movement

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Thursday 12th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I do not disagree at all that the EU free movers contribute to the economy. We were talking yesterday about doctors, nurses and various other people who contribute to the public sector. I cannot remember the first part of the question, but I think I answered it previously. Each country enshrines the free movement directive in its own legislation.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, if the noble Baroness will not comment on the detail of discussions in response to my noble friend Lord Dubs, can I repeat the question I asked her on 30 November? Do the Government make any distinction between the free movement of persons and the free movement of labour? Could she answer without conferring?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am not entirely sure, but all those distinctions and discussions that will be taking place will be solidified in the fullness of time as we go through this process.

Brexit: Immigration Policy

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Wednesday 30th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I acknowledge what my noble friend says and I hope it will reassure him that we are talking to all sectors, not just the agricultural sector but sectors such as social care, because these things are very important as we move forward.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, of course we do not expect a running commentary, but as the Government are assiduously forming their views on this matter, could the Minister perhaps give us a hint as to whether they allow any difference, in their crystallising thoughts, between the free movement of persons, as enshrined in Article 3 of the Treaty of Rome and confirmed at Lisbon and Maastricht, and the free movement of labour? It is, perhaps, an important distinction.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord, as always, makes a very good point. Yes, we must control the numbers of people coming to Britain from Europe but, as he says, we must ensure a positive outcome for those who wish to trade in goods and services.

Investigatory Powers Bill

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, being the 36th speaker in a Second Reading debate has some advantages and disadvantages. The advantage, of course, is to be able to listen to and, I hope, learn from the substance and detail of the points that have been made. I have tried to do that this evening—other than when I have been called away to another fraternal Parliamentary Labour Party meeting. The disadvantage, of course, is that almost everything has been said. Therefore, I will confine my remarks to two or three simple points which I freely admit do not arise from my understanding of jurisprudence, expert legal training or philosophical depth but from my experience as a practitioner in government. I admit that I have authorised and used intercepts—I hope for the benefit of the people of this country—and, therefore, I wish to say a few words about necessity and proportionality and perhaps a little about scrutiny.

Why do I think that the Bill as a whole is necessary? Of course, details of it will have to be discussed and debated but in my view it is necessary because I have seen at first hand thousands of British citizens’ lives saved not only by intercept but largely by intercept and intelligence based on intercept. Leaving aside when I was Northern Ireland Secretary, when I was Home Secretary I dealt with some 40 to 60 cases of counterterrorism of greater or lesser significance. Almost all of them involved more than one country. I recollect one case where there were almost 20 countries. It is not only the interception of communications, but the global nature of the communications which are now an essential field for interception if we are to protect the lives of British citizens. In one case, which I mentioned earlier to the noble Lord, Lord Strasburger, the potential victims numbered 2,300 to 2,400. There were seven aeroplanes involved in the plot which was foiled in August 2006. Without going into detail, we were watching, at various stages, minor actors in that tragic drama. It was only through intercept, and some of the powers enshrined in this Bill, that, fairly late in the day, we discovered that we were looking at a subset and the main players were actually somewhere else. It is practical experience which has convinced me of the necessity for this type of power, not in every detail but in general.

Secondly, I do not think proportionality can be discussed unless we see it in the context of two things. One is the threat, and the changing nature of it. The other is the changing nature of communications. Both of these have been touched upon today. In other words, the objectives of the intelligence agencies, Ministers and the counterterrorist authorities have not changed; what has changed is the world, and particularly the nature of the threat and the nature of communications. As we know, the threat now stands at the second highest level—severe—which means that a terrorist attack is “highly likely”. That is not my view but that of the analysts and the authorities who decide these things. As the noble Lord, Lord King, mentioned at the beginning of this debate, the nature of the threat has changed even from 15 to 20 years ago. The threat from the IRA was big enough but they did not tend to want to blow themselves up or be caught. That change makes it much more difficult and reliant on prevention through previous intelligence. In 2014, some 10,000 Europeans went to Syria as jihadists. It is estimated that about 5,000 of them have returned to Europe. In Britain, the numbers are roughly 800, with 400 returned. Last year, the intelligence services foiled seven major plots here, 13 in France and various others throughout Europe. Where they did not succeed, we saw the tragedies of Tunisia, Brussels and Paris. Proportionality has to be seen against that background.

The world of communications has changed. As several noble Lords have said, we now live in a cyber world. Cyber is not an amalgam of technologies. It is not just a means of communication. Cyber is the first man-and-woman-made environment. It now permeates absolutely everything. It gives unparalleled opportunities for people to reach out for education and information; it has an amazing potential to liberate human beings. However, like all forms of technology, it has an amazing capacity to be used for evil as well. It is the communication method of choice for terrorists who would do evil—I am responding to this only in terms of counterterrorism.

I remember using one of the first digital phones, back in 1985 on a march from Gartcosh to London. I was given it by a press organisation that wanted to cover the march for jobs. It weighed as much as a brick; it looked like a brick; it was as useful as a brick. You had to charge it for 12 hours to get 20 minutes off it. Now, between 3 billion and 4 billion people in the world are using the internet on mobile phones for communication. They are the communication method of choice for the terrorists themselves. Although it brings unparalleled opportunities for good, it also does for bad. We have to empower the intelligence agencies and those trying to counter the use of that internet technology not just for communication purposes but for propaganda, recruitment and radicalisation purposes as well.

While I have no doubt about the proportionality of the generality of the Bill, my final point is about oversight and balance. I am sorry that my noble friend Lady Kennedy is not in her place because she said earlier on that she had been surprised by the humility of my predecessor, my noble friend Lord Blunkett. Well, it is a lucky day as I was going to give her a surprise as well.

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

But I am here.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

My noble friend Lord Blunkett is here. I do not think that he heard my noble friend Lady Kennedy’s comments but I have a surprise for her. I do not take the view that security overrides everything. I take the view of a need for balance. Various people have mentioned tonight that the protection of our citizens is the first duty of government, but that is a mistranslation. With my O-level Latin, I can tell your Lordships that Cicero’s “Salus populi suprema lex esto” does not mean that that protection is the first duty of government but that the welfare of the people is their first duty. That welfare combines the protection of their rights and well-being with the protection of their lives, which is why we are trying to get a correct balance on this.

I am all for examining the Bill in detail in Committee, including legal professional privilege, issues about journalists and so on. But I would plead with your Lordships: I cannot think of anything that I have seen going through Parliament, in my 30 years or thereabouts, that has had quite so much scrutiny. I therefore hope that it will get a fair wind, because of not only that prior scrutiny but that which is to come from David Anderson as well—and because of our obligation to supply the tools to our intelligence agencies and those trying to protect the people of this country.

Having said that, I have one reservation, which is about the introduction of judges to a greater degree than was previously the case. If the double lock becomes a double decision-making process on the substance of the political decision, I would be very worried. I understand why the Home Secretary did it and the perceptions in certain sections of the public—not what I would call public opinion but certainly published opinion. It therefore became a necessary element of making sure that there was a fair wind behind this Bill. I accept that, but I have some reservations with it. So, with all that, I wish the Bill well and I congratulate the Secretary of State for the Home Office. She has been extremely patient. This has been in embryo not for two years but for almost 10 years, through various people. I wish her well in her present job and in any job that she may be seeking to do in the future.