Brussels Terrorist Attacks

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

My noble friend is absolutely right to point out that the United Kingdom has a unique set of international relationships, whether through its position on the Security Council, in the Commonwealth or in the “Five Eyes” that I have talked about. A crucial part of these relationships is of course with Europe. The sharing of information within Europe must go on. It is absolutely integral to our ongoing security. We are not, for example, part of the Schengen area, but that does not stop our signing up for the Schengen information system and these are crucial data for us. It is important that we maintain the strongest possible links because this is a global problem and it requires us all to work together internationally and within this country.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, first, I express my condolences to the families of those who have lost their lives and to those who have been injured. Would the Minister reconfirm that the threat to this country remains at the severe level and it is highly likely that there will be a terrorist attack at some stage? In that context, is it not the case that our support and assistance to Belgium—or others who find themselves the victims of these tragedies—is not just a moral and political obligation but self-interest, since we may wish to see it reciprocated at some stage?

Secondly, on information sharing, can the Minister comment on Europol? Only two months ago, the head of Europol suggested that, although there were 5,000 returnees from Syria to Europe, they had received details on only 2,000 from individual EU members. This leaves a very large percentage. What are we doing to encourage people to supply information there?

Finally, can the Minister give an estimate of the number of Syrian would-be jihadists who have returned to this country? How many of them are under surveillance and how many are on deradicalisation programmes? I understand that he may be constrained on the last point, but it would be helpful if he could give some indication.

[Lord Bates]

I think the noble Lord was Home Secretary at the time of the 7/7 attacks and therefore knows absolutely what must be going on and the vital part played by our international networks in tracking people down and keeping others safe. He is right to ask about what specific help has been given. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, also asked about that. The type of help we have given the Belgians includes CCTV analysis, forensic device investigation, bomb scene management, exploiting social media and body recovery.

On the Europol counterterrorism point, I do not know specific numbers. I know there are some 800 foreign fighters who have returned to the UK. We have made it clear that anyone returning can expect to be the subject of interest to the authorities and to be contacted by them. Where it can be shown that they have been engaging in criminal acts abroad, they will be—and have been—prosecuted and that will continue to be the case.

European Union: Schengen Agreement

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Tuesday 15th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

That is a very important point. One of the things that we have done in supporting Greece is to provide DfID aid to ensure that the centres where people’s applications are processed have the type of decent humanitarian care which Europe and this country have a proud record in delivering.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, to get to the crux of the matter, is it not obvious to everyone, including government Ministers, that, given what happened in Paris, the arrests in Belgium, Switzerland and elsewhere and the influx of refugees through the borders of Europe, the ability to move through 26 European countries with no scrutiny at the border is a boon to terrorists? Notwithstanding the fact that we are not in Schengen, the fact that if you come inside the borders of Greece you can travel right across Europe to the coast of Belgium and northern France puts immense pressure on our borders. Should the Government not be doing something to have those borders restored for our own sake, if not for the European Union’s sake?

Identity Cards

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Thursday 26th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

Of course we learn from others, and the reality is that we have a system of photographic ID—I have mentioned lots of types, such as biometric passports, but also general passports and driving licences, which we have in this country. At a time when our principal concern is national security, we have said that we choose to spend the investment that would be required to put in place a system of ID on better equipping our security forces and better securing our borders to ensure that we can keep people secure and safe.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as the Home Secretary who introduced ID cards. I say to the Minister, and through him to noble colleagues on the Cross Benches and the Liberal Benches, that I have always been aware and am still aware of the balance between privacy and security for the nation. However, I hope in the present circumstances, which have changed considerably over the last decade—not only as regards immigration and the introduction of digital services for individuals and citizens but particularly in regard to the national security and the protection of all of our citizens in counterterrorism and the assurance that we can give that to them—that the Government will reconsider their position on this before it is too late. I welcome the fact that the Government are not averse to U-turns, including very big ones, and I hope that they will reconsider on this one; no one will score any political points, because it is now a matter of national security.

[Lord Bates]

I hear the point the noble Lord makes, which of course I would accept if it was a question of effectiveness, but our view is that it was not going to be effective, because the very people you would want to catch would be the people who would not comply. That is the reason why spending the money on better security and surveillance, better use of intelligence, the investments in national security we have announced, the improvement to the funding of the police and cybersecurity is the right way to go at the present time.

Syrian Refugees

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Monday 9th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, it is obviously right and proper that the Government respond to the terrible plight of the Syrian refugees, but in order that the people of this country who might have any fears that such a system would be misused by those who would wish to damage this country and the people of this country, could the Minister say something about the security screening that accompanies the acceptance of the refugees?

[Lord Bates]

The noble Lord is absolutely right. That is one of the reasons why we want the application and vetting processes to happen under the auspices of the UNHCR in the refugee camps rather than having a group of people attempting to enter the UK so that we have to make those judgments at the border. We want it to take place in the Middle East so that the right people can be brought to this country and the wrong people cannot.

Police: Cuts

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Wednesday 28th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

I watched that same interview and listened to it very carefully. It seemed to me that Sara Thornton was saying that the nature of policing is changing and that perhaps patrols in low-crime areas can no longer be guaranteed at the same level as in the past. There is a big philosophical question facing policing and I do not dodge it. It is a question of whether in low-crime areas you want the comfort of seeing a police officer walking down the street or to see crime levels falling—as they are, by 8% year on year. Crime is down by 30% to its lowest level since 1981. We believe that the target in policing is to cut crime and that is what the police are doing.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, I just want to correct the Minister. I hope I am right, but I read last week that crime is not falling. Crime has, in fact, increased in the last statistics by around 70% because, for the first time, we have included cybercrime. Why on earth this has not been included for years, I do not know. However, I return to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Blair. We all want the Home Office to be, in every aspect, fit for purpose. But when he was asked what the strategy for policing is, the Minister told us that there was a review of one aspect of it, a policing college and that best practice was going to be shared. With the greatest respect to the Minister, none of those, either individually or in aggregate, constitutes a strategy. Will he have a go again at telling us what the strategy is? If it is classified, he can talk to me on a Privy Council basis.

[Lord Bates]

The national strategy is to cut crime. That is what we are about. The strategy is twofold. We want to cut crime, and crime is falling. According to the Crime Survey for England and Wales, crime is down 8% year on year. The big point is that we want to work nationally on tackling cybercrime and big organised crime; that is the reason for the National Crime Agency, the counterterrorism units and the College of Policing. But also, we believe that the answer lies in local people making local decisions. That is why we support police and crime commissioners working with their chief constables to allocate resources where they are best needed to tackle crime in that area. I am delighted to see that the Opposition now support that.

Surveillance Legislation

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Thursday 16th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

On the specific Question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, will the Minister and his colleagues strongly bear in mind in any consideration the principle of accountability to Parliament and to the public? On grave decisions such as this, it is the Minister who will be held responsible by both Parliament and the public, and that is especially the case if anything should go wrong and a tragedy occur. Will he make that central to his considerations?

[Lord Bates]

It is a major part of the consideration. I think that we were very interested to hear the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, who talked about the level of scrutiny that was there and the support for the Home Secretary who takes the decision. We recognise that, ultimately, they are the ones with the responsibility, and they are the ones who should therefore have the authority.

Communications Data

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Wednesday 17th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

My noble friend is absolutely right. He helpfully mentions previous consideration of the counterterrorism and security legislation as it went through this House. We, the Conservative part of the coalition, very much wanted to introduce the Communications Data Bill, but what has been announced in the Queen’s Speech goes wider than that. It includes communications data but also looks at the regulatory regime and is built around investigatory powers, bringing us more up to date with the threats we face and, therefore, the capabilities that our people need.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

Does the Minister accept that, with all the scrutiny this has rightly been given, we are considering not just a matter of law—though it is that—but a matter of political judgment about political circumstances and political threats, not least terrorist threats? Will everything possible therefore be done to ensure that the crucial interventions are retained within the ambit of politicians who are ultimately accountable to this Parliament, and not merely avoided by putting them out to judges without a political intervention?

[Lord Bates]

Obviously, the noble Lord speaks with great experience. I think that he was Home Secretary at the time of the 9/11 attacks and is personally aware of the challenges we face in that area. The Anderson review raised the issue of the relationship between the Executive and the judiciary. A number of comments were made about the decisions that had been taken and about the risk if things go wrong being a political risk, saying that the decisions therefore ought to follow that process. That is a view that David Anderson expressed and which we are considering, but the Intelligence and Security Committee took a different view. We will evaluate the issue and come forward with recommendations.

Passports

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Thursday 11th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

The most important thing we have to do is to get a grip on the situation to ensure that the problems that led to delays last year—an increase of some 1 million applicants over what was normally forecast and expected—are dealt with, that people get the service that they expect and that we keep the security of our borders as our highest priority.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister has admitted that the real problem last year, in his words, was that there were a million more applications than normal. It was nothing to do with agency status. Has he thought through the law of unintended consequences? One of the reasons why the asylum figures and deportation of foreign prisoners were so difficult is that, after a long series of judicial appeals, someone could go to their MP. When the MP applied to the Home Office Minister, the case had to be opened again. Does the Minister think that bringing this back into the Home Office and thus permitting that has had anything to do with the escalation of the asylum and immigration problem?

[Lord Bates]

That is a possibility. I defer to the noble Lord’s deep expertise in this area. The problem that happened with the numbers was an issue of forecasting and therefore ensuring that we had the right number of staff. We are now confident that we have the right number of staff to deal with that. Where issues are raised with a Member of Parliament then they should also apply to the ombudsman, which can deal with these matters if it thinks there has been maladministration.

Ellison Review

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Thursday 6th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, that is a question that of course my noble friend is right to ask. I am confident that with the joint activity of Chief Constable Mick Creedon and Mark Ellison, we now have a way to the truth. The truth may well be difficult to get to, and we know that some of the material that we would have liked to have been available to inform the judge-led inquiry will not be because it has been destroyed or lost. None the less, anyone appearing in front of a public inquiry, following the criminal prosecutions that may well follow this review and Chief Constable Creedon’s Operation Herne activity, will have to give evidence under oath. There can be no hiding place for people who have done wrong in this matter. I have confidence that we will get to the truth. The sadness in this story is that it will have taken such a long time to get there.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, I think that anyone who speaks today following the Statement repeated by the Minister will do so with a great sense of humility. It takes nothing away from the laudable actions of the Home Secretary or Mark Ellison to say that this would not have been achieved without the courage and endurance of my noble friend Lady Lawrence and her family over a period of 21 years. It is difficult to imagine the frustration that she must have felt during that period, knowing that she was right and finding it so difficult to tackle the bureaucracies, and indeed the criminal justice system, over that period.

The deputy commissioner of the Met has just said that he was shocked, saddened and troubled by the conclusions that were put out today. So he should be. That description applies to everyone in this country who wants to see a police force that is trusted and who recognises that the vast majority of the people in the police force are committed, with integrity, to defending the people of this country. He is right to be shocked, saddened and troubled because this inquiry asked three important sets of questions: about individual corruption in the initial investigation, about the withholding of relevant material and evidence from the Macpherson inquiry, and then wider questions related to that. Those questions were troubling and the answers are even more so. I suspect, even from my brief scanning of the report, that this is not the end but only the beginning of a process of a review, a public inquiry, criminal investigations and then wider aspects. It may well be that with her persistence and endurance, my noble friend has achieved something today not only for her own family but for this country as a whole.

It is natural that most of the report will relate centrally to the tragic murder of Stephen Lawrence, but there are two paragraphs that cast the issue a little wider. Perhaps I will ask a question about the case of Daniel Morgan as well. There is another family seeking the truth—in their case regarding a man who was axed through the head in a pub car park in London. There has apparently been continual obfuscation in that case as well.

It has been suggested that the allegedly corrupt policeman in the case of the initial Lawrence inquiry is in some way connected to the Daniel Morgan murder, and it is hoped that the panel looking at that will note this. Will the Minister go a little further and assure us that any information concerning the allegedly corrupt detective which has been discovered during this inquiry will fully and proactively be made available to those investigating the case of Daniel Morgan? We do not want to see another 20 years pass before another apparent miscarriage of justice is remedied.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for intervening on this. He speaks from considerable experience of the responsibility that my right honourable friend Theresa May has in looking at this matter. He will know how seriously it has been taken.

I agree with him about the Daniel Morgan case. The Statement specifically refers to the fact that the panel should be advised and should take note, and should continue its work in the light of the allegations of corruption—which must be proved by investigation—relating to the officer who has been mentioned, and in the light of any connection there may be between the Stephen Lawrence case and the police investigation into the Daniel Morgan case.

Security Services: Supervision

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Thursday 7th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, I have had the good fortune of working with our intelligence agencies as Secretary of State for Defence, Minister for the Armed Forces, Home Secretary with responsibilities for counterterrorism and Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. I have to say right at the beginning that I know at first hand the good that the security services do and about the lives they have saved. Those are not the hundreds that the noble Lord just referred to, but in one case it was thousands. Overall, it has been many, many thousands of lives in this country. I know also that much of the good that they do is never recognised precisely because it is their job to prevent evil happening. I want to put that on the record right away.

Let us start with the obvious. It is right and fitting in a democracy that all the agencies of the state are accountable to and overseen in an appropriate fashion by the elected representatives of the public. The intelligence agencies are a special case since inevitably much of the work they have to do must be carried out in secret. That does not mean that they are unaccountable. Indeed, over the decades we have constructed an elaborate degree and system of oversight. Their work is carried out in accordance with a strict legal and policy framework which ensures that their activities are authorised, necessary and proportionate—I will come back to this. At the heart of the framework are two Acts of Parliament, not only the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, which was mentioned by the noble Lord, but also the Intelligence Services Act 1994.

A rigorous system of oversight of the activities of intelligence services is already in place, incorporating warranty oversight by Secretaries of State, detailed review by the Interception of Communications Commissioner and the Intelligence Services Commissioner, and scrutiny by the Intelligence and Security Committee. Today, the fundamentals of this system of oversight have been added to by the interviewing of all three heads of the intelligence services in public and on television. That is an extension that is happening even as we speak. The fundamentals of the system of oversight and accountability have not changed, and indeed we have been assured of this by the Foreign Secretary himself.

What is the present controversy all about? If the fundamentals and the objectives of the intelligence services have not changed, what is it that has changed? It is the world that has changed, and it has done so exponentially. That is not least in terms of electronic communications, as referred to by my noble friend Lord Soley. Cyberspace is now an environment that permeates everything we do. It is an environment that offers great opportunities for information, communication, personal empowerment and advances for good, but it is also an environment that offers equally great opportunities for the bad: for, among others, international crime, terrorism, paedophiles and hate crimes. These, and others intent on malevolent action, no longer communicate directly using a simple telephone line from A to B. Put simply, they now communicate across the world by voice over ISP, the internet, by e-mail, by text or by concealment on web pages. That is what has changed, and crucially, all of these traverse the globe. They are transnational, not even international. All those whose activities are of malevolent intent use these electronic means.

I can tell noble Lords that when I was Home Secretary I looked at a number of plots, on some occasions between 40 and 60. Not one was confined to this country alone. All of them involved communication between people in at least two countries, while a major one involved people in 20 countries. That is the nature of the world in which we now live. The job of the intelligence agencies has thus been made infinitely harder in maintaining surveillance. I can tell the House that Sir Iain Lobban has only just told today’s hearing that we have to, “anticipate, discover, analyse, investigate and respond, and we have to do that globally”. That is him speaking for GCHQ. How can I tell noble Lords that? It is because I have an iPad which communicates to me in real time via the BBC what is being said in another place and communicates that simultaneously around the world. That is the world we are now living in and which our intelligence agencies have to cope with. They are faced with an infinitely greater task than ever. They are still looking for needles in a haystack, but the haystack is now global; it is huge in size.

We have been assured by the Minister that the nature of the surveillance and the fundamental principles underlying it have not have changed, and therefore in order to discover who is communicating with whom, the security services have to operate under RIPA, and in order to look at any content, they must have a warrant from a Home Secretary; that has not changed. So it is incumbent upon us to recognise that while information should not be kept unnecessarily out of the public domain, a balance must be struck. In order to safeguard sensitive methods and sources and to ensure that the secret intelligence agencies stay secret, some of that oversight must take place behind closed doors.

The intelligence agencies need oversight and scrutiny, but they need to operate in the real world as it exists today. We may not have caught up with this real world, but this can be no excuse for them because, ultimately, the lives of our fellow citizens depend on the intelligence agencies catching up with the real world, and as I said, thousands of lives have been saved. So they require scrutiny and supervision, but they also need our understanding and support in the vital work they do for this country.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

If I sought to reassure the noble Lord, I might make a mistake. However, I will check that out and write to him. The noble Lord makes a very good point as a loyal Member of this House, and I hope that I will be able to give him a positive answer.

We have to give these new arrangements time to bed down and to prove their effectiveness. I am certain that the committee will succeed in giving Parliament and the public confidence that the Executive and the agencies are properly held to account. As the noble Lord, Lord Soley, said, the whole business of keeping legislation up to date is a matter for the House authorities, and he made an interesting suggestion about how we can keep pace with technical change. However, that is a matter not only for the Government but for the House authorities as well.

Supervision does not stop with the ISC. The courts provide an independent avenue for anyone who wishes to complain about intelligence activity. Anyone who feels that they have been subject to improper use of intrusive powers by the intelligence agencies can complain to the Investigatory Powers Tribunal, which provides independent judicial oversight. If it decides that legislation has been breached or human rights infringed, it can quash warrants, order the destruction of records and award financial compensation.

One need only look at the range of activity this year alone to see that the system works. The ISC has published reports on foreign involvement in UK critical national infrastructure, communications data, and GCHQ’s alleged activity in relation to PRISM. It is now reviewing the tragic killing in Woolwich in May and will begin another review next year into intelligence legislation, which may assist with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Soley. The Interception Commissioner is investigating reports related to interception following the Snowden leaks. A judicial review of the police’s decision to stop David Miranda in August is currently being heard by the courts, and the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation—David Anderson QC—will then report on the police’s use of terrorism powers in that case.

The Investigatory Powers Tribunal is considering several cases arising from the Snowden leaks that have been brought by parties including Liberty and Privacy International. If these investigations and legal cases lead to criticisms, recommendations for change, or adverse judgments, the Government will listen, reflect and respond. This is how effective oversight works, and this is how we can best ensure that Parliament and the public can have confidence in the work of intelligence agencies while protecting the secrets that need to remain secret.

I will now comment on some of the points made by noble Lords in the course of the debate. I welcomed all the contributions, which were good. I do not necessarily share the views of my noble friend Lord Blencathra on the proportionality of different levels of terrorism. I thank the pre-legislative Joint Committee on the draft Communications Data Bill, which did Parliament great justice in its scrutiny. The ISC undertook similar scrutiny of that Bill; it took evidence from the intelligence agencies and was briefed on GCHQ capabilities in this area. From its informed position, it considered there was still a communications gap requiring legislation. The noble Lord, Lord Reid of Cardowan, paid right and proper tribute—

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

Given the Minister’s accolades for all the work done by both the ISC and the committee of the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, can he tell us what has happened to that Bill? What is the blockage?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I do not think that there is a blockage, but I think it is sensible that we reflect on the two committees’ contributions to the legislation. No doubt the Government will bring forward legislation in due course to cover the gap that was detected in our ability to handle modern communications.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

I am grateful, but given that a gap has been identified, that means there is a gap in counterterrorism, surveillance and national security. Can the Minister explain why it is taking so long to reflect on that, when so much work has already been done? Will he comment on the suggestion that the blockage is actually the Deputy Prime Minister?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I think that the noble Lord is being a little mischievous on this particular issue. Heaven forfend that he should be so. He knows the background against which the issue is being debated. All I can say is that the challenge to be effective in the real world, and maintain a proper balance, is what the Government are seeking to do. That is why we are so supportive of having proper scrutiny of the security services. I have been interrupted. I hope noble Lords will forgive me, but I must rush because otherwise I will run out of time.

I reassure my noble friend Lord Strasburger that the ISC has very much increased resources, and is now responsible not just to the Prime Minister but to Parliament itself. The communications data gap relates to what is happening in the UK. GCHQ is a foreign intelligence-gathering agency, and this is its core mission. The Communications Data Bill focused on the communications gap in this country.

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, made one of his usual passionate contributions. I noted his call for a longer debate on these issues. I would welcome this. However, the shortage of time has not inhibited noble Lords in the expressiveness of their contributions.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, for his contribution. It is not technical capacity that governs intelligence gathering but the need for intelligence. I cannot comment on the Foreign Secretary’s statement applying to overseas activities, but all of GCHQ’s work is carried out in accordance with a strict legal and policy framework which ensures that its activities are legal, necessary, proportionate and targeted. I hope that we can say that of all the activity that is done in our name by these important parts of our national security apparatus.