Sentencing Council Guidelines

Debate between Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede and Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd

Thursday 3rd April 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)]

My Lords, I do not think there is any dispute whatever about the principles upon which judges should sentence. Most of them are laid down in the Sentencing Code, and there is absolute agreement on equality before the law. I also think everyone recognises the achievement of the Sentencing Council in going a long way to achieve consistency and to educate the public in understanding the way in which sentencing operates, but—and I do this without wishing to enter into the political debate—we find ourselves constrained by resources, and when resources are tight, problems arise. Therefore, I greatly welcomed the Lord Chancellor saying yesterday in the other place that she would make more resources available to the Probation Service.

However, my experience has been twofold. First, we have a constitution that operates on a degree of partnership between the Lord Chancellor and the head of the judiciary, the Lord Chief Justice. Secondly, at times when resources are tight, people forget that our whole constitution operates on interdependence, not just independence, between the different branches of government. I hope that we can follow the example of the late Lord Judge and Mr Straw, who together crafted this legislation—I was there when it happened. There will be disagreements. I see with pleasure that a former Lord Chancellor is in his place in the Chamber. We used to discuss things often. Unsurprisingly, we did not see eye to eye on everything but we managed to find a way forward. Can the Minister assure us that everything will be done to try to make this work in discussion, in partnership and in keeping this whole thing out of politics, which is so destructive to the independence of the sentencing process?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank the noble and learned Lord for his wise words and his analysis. Of course I acknowledge the point he made about resources. I earlier pointed to the discrepancy between youth and adult pre-sentence reports. The fact of the matter is that it is a resource issue. This is one very specific example, but the noble and learned Lord’s general point is absolutely right.

The other point the noble and learned Lord made about the interdependence of judges and the political leadership, if I can put it like that, as well as the independence, was also right. Protecting that is very important. Nevertheless, we believe that this example of the way different ethnic groups should be addressed within sentencing guidance is a policy issue. That is why my right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor has acted as she has in introducing this specific and targeted Bill. Nevertheless, the more general point that the noble and learned Lord makes about the importance of partnership and discussion is right. I thank him for making those points.

Courts and Tribunals: Sitting Days

Debate between Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede and Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd

Tuesday 11th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for giving me notice of that question. I absolutely recognise the point on the importance of cases coming on in time. One hears far too many stories of cases having to be abandoned, often because of poor administration of the case. We have a number of pilot courts—I think it is about 10—where we are introducing case co-ordinators. They are people whose only job is to go over the cases to make sure that all the different elements are in place and to make sure that the case gets on. I realise that that is not exactly the point that the noble Lord made, but it is acknowledging the importance of making sure that these cases get on and are not abandoned for any reason.

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)]

I have a couple of questions. First, it is very clear that if you get a backlog in the system, people will plead not guilty. That was my experience with the magistrates’ court in Gloucestershire in 2006, and I do not believe that anything has changed. Therefore, my first question is: what are the Government’s projections, going forward over the next 12 months, as to the likely increase in those awaiting trial? The real problem is that if you do not clear the backlog, it makes it worse because it is always tempting to put off facing reality; it just gets worse and worse.

Secondly, in a court system time is always lost during the day. One problem that we have relates to prisons and the difficulty of bringing prisoners to the courts on time. What is being done to ensure that is improved? I remember this being a problem more than 20 years ago, and it really required extraordinarily tough contract management. I took some of the job on myself, as the Ministry of Justice did not seem capable of doing it. What is being done to manage the contracts so that they are managed as a commercial contract should be managed, and there are penalties or other stern action taken if a prisoner is late? I hope that the contracts are tough enough to ensure that.

In connection with prisons, when I chaired the Commission on Justice in Wales, it was obvious that there was a problem in funding the criminal justice system. I do not think that there can be any real doubt that the financial problems arise from the overall fiscal constraints, which I completely understand, on what money is available for justice—but you are driven to the conclusion that if the Exchequer will not provide more money, the only place it can come from is reducing the prison population. When are we going to find out not how we avoid the crisis that will come in the early part of next year but what is being fundamentally done to reassess our policy of sending people to prison for a very long time? That, I believe, is at the heart of the problem.

The Lord Chancellor spoke very eloquently—and I commend her on this—of dealing with the question of an intermediate court, but the much more difficult political question is dealing with the sentiment that was impressed on us some years ago that “prison works”. I do not believe that is true, but it works to undermine all the rest of the justice system by there not being enough money for paying lawyers to do their job properly and funding the administration of justice.

I am sorry—I took my second question in two parts. I commend the Lord Chancellor on what she has done, but there are other problems to which we need to face up.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I agree with the concluding sentence of the noble and learned Lord—there are indeed other problems which we need to face up to, and reducing the prison population is one of the most fundamental of them. In many ways, that problem goes hand in hand with the problem of the Crown Court backlog. The noble and learned Lord will know that my noble friend Lord Timpson went to Spain to see their prison system, and my right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor went to Texas, looking constructively at other ways of dealing with these issues. Of course, as he said, reoffending rates are crucial in trying to reduce the backlog and there will be legislation on this coming forward in due course.

The noble and learned Lord opened by talking about the incentive to plead not guilty because of the lengthy backlogs. That is undoubtedly true; I have heard that point made many times. It is an added incentive for us to try to reduce the backlogs. There will be a number of benefits to this, and the noble and learned Lord has pointed to one in particular.

Regarding intermediate courts or giving magistrates more sentencing powers, it is my understanding that magistrates’ courts work about five times more quickly than Crown Courts. I do not know what Sir Brian is going to recommend, but, if more work could be done within magistrates’ courts, that would help as well.

The noble and learned Lord spoke about bringing prisoners to court in a timely way. I of course agree with that point. The last mini-campaign I did when I was still a sitting magistrate was to try to allow prison vans in London to use the emergency service lanes to get people to court. It was a minor battle I had with the Mayor of London and I am afraid that I lost it. Nevertheless, the point he makes is a good one. It is very important that everybody gets to court on time, so that the whole process can be properly managed, which is of benefit to everybody involved in it.

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)]

Perhaps I could ask a supplementary question. Has the Ministry of Justice got a really tough contract manager? All of one’s commercial experience shows that, if you contract out a service, you have to be tough in the performance of it. I need not raise the problems that have arisen. In the past, contract delivery companies did not have a good record, if one might say this.

Commission on Justice in Wales

Debate between Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede and Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd

Monday 7th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

The simple answer to the noble and learned Lord’s question is that I do not know the answer to his question.

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)]

The subject is a complex one; the report was lengthy. Do the Government intend to set out in detail why the report was wrong? It would be very useful to have a chapter-by-chapter explanation of why what was recommended unanimously by a completely apolitical group of experts is thought to be wrong.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

The noble and learned Lord’s report was a large piece of work. As I said in my initial Answer, it is for the Senedd to take forward the vast bulk of the recommendations, and the UK Government are acting on some of the recommendations and are continuing to act particularly on the disaggregation of data. The Labour manifesto made clear that the principal objective of the noble and learned Lord’s report is not one that the current Government share. We want to work in practical ways for the benefit of Wales, and the examples that I gave of youth justice and probation are good examples of that.

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Debate between Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede and Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd

Lords Hansard - part two & Committee stage
Wednesday 10th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)]

My Lords, in the light of what my predecessor as Lord Chief Justice, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, has said, I can be very brief.

First, I wholeheartedly agree with him. Secondly, I do not think that we should beat about the bush at all about the change to the word “exceptional”. Any lawyer knows that the intention is to raise the bar significantly. You use that word only when you want to try to minimise the discretion or ambit of when it is to happen. I hope that the Minister will accept the clear intention of the change and answer the question posed in the earlier debate by the noble Lord, Lord German, about the difference. There is a clear and obvious difference.

Thirdly, having had a little less time as a judge and coming to the job a bit later, I can see an argument, which one has to accept, for saying that, by setting a minimum term, Parliament is giving an indication of what it thinks is appropriate. Perhaps that was not the right road to go down, but we have gone down it. But where this Government are wholly wrong—I do not think that we should mince our words about that—is in saying that a judge should impose a sentence that is not just. In refusing this amendment, the Government are saying, “We don’t care if injustice results: you must look at the circumstances, and if they are not exceptional” —a high bar—“you must impose an unjust sentence”. Have we really sunk so low as to require our judges not to do justice?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been an interesting debate. I agree with the points that the noble Lord, Lord Marks, has made, but I want to give a different perspective that partly undermines the argument put by him and all the other noble, and noble and learned, Lords who have spoken. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, said that, ultimately, it is for judges to pass a sentence that is just. He pinned his argument on that single point.

We talked about youths in the previous group. For youth justice, the overarching purpose when sentencing is to reduce reoffending. That purpose supersedes the overall position of needing to be just in the sentence. That is why there is a minimum sentence in youth courts of four months. The reason is that, when you go to youth offender institutions or things like that, you are invariably told by the prison offers and teachers dealing with the young people that they need to be there for a duration of time to get their education. That is the justification for having a minimum sentence of four months in youth cases.

Counter-Terrorism and Sentencing Bill

Debate between Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede and Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd

Consideration of Commons amendments
Thursday 25th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB) [V]]

My Lords, in view of the eloquent and comprehensive speech of the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich, I can confine my remarks to three points. First, it seems to me that the position taken by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, must be right as a matter of principle. Both the areas which the House has examined in detail—namely the burden of proof required and the length of time—are essential for ensuring that this is a regime that does not disproportionately affect the fundamental right of liberty.

Secondly, the considerable importance of the current amendment is that we have moved away from the prospect of orders of an indefinite renewal period. Not only would those have been discouraging and demoralising to the individual and made it more difficult to ensure that he could, on removal of the TPIM, return as an ordinary member of society, but, as importantly, they would have been perceived as unfair by the community. The perception of fairness by the community safeguards us to a much more considerable extent than any other matters.

Thirdly, I profoundly welcome the pragmatic approach of the Minister, supported as he has been in this by the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson of Tredegar, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Stewart. It is wonderful that a proper compromise has been reached here and I thank them for their considerable part in bringing this about. It may not be perfect, but it gets rid of those areas that would have been most damaging to our civil liberties.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, at Second Reading, I made the point that it is very important that we restate the arguments for these draconian measures. I took the opportunity of talking to my son and others of his generation of young people in their early 20s about these measures which we take in our country. We had an interesting discussion about the proportionality of this and the right of a state to protect itself from potential terrorism. It is right that these arguments are revisited, as they are every year. It is a tribute to this House that many of the Peers who have taken part in these debates have a long-standing involvement in these issues—unlike me. It is, nevertheless, important that these arguments are remade, as they have been.

I too thank the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Stewart, for their engagement; it was an interesting process. They also made it possible for me and other noble Lords to meet some of the experts in the Home Office who are dealing with these issues on a day-to-day basis. It was certainly instructive to meet the psychiatrists and psychologists who are involved in the various programmes that take place in prison and look at how TPIMs are managed outside prisons.

I also acknowledge that the Minister has made a concession in time-limiting TPIMs to five years. The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, put the point well—as she always does—about the principle of having a time limit rather than the issue running on indefinitely. My noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton, who was responsible for the introduction of the original control orders in 2005, has changed his view on this, in light of the change in circumstances and the growing learning of how to handle people who are potentially very dangerous. Although the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, proposed four years, we of course accept the Minister’s counterproposal of a five-year limit.

I conclude by paying tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Anderson. He has led us on this, in some ways, supported by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, who also has tremendous experience in this area. If I were to direct my son to read a speech, it would be the final one from the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, which is a very good summary of the situation we have arrived at and the considerations we have made in reaching this compromise.