European Court of Human Rights

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Monday 5th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bellamy (Con)]

My Lords, the position is that those meetings have not yet taken place. It proved quite difficult to arrange them in the Recess and in the light of the impending change of government. I am due to see the Welsh Government on the 19th of this month, and provisional dates for Scotland and Northern Ireland have been arranged for before the end of September.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

Can my noble and learned friend confirm that, when Her Majesty’s Government have knowledge of a case that is relevant, any evidence that Her Majesty’s Government have is automatically offered, rather than partially offered or perhaps sometimes no evidence offered at all?

[Lord Bellamy (Con)]

I am sorry, but I am not sure I entirely follow my noble friend’s question.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

I am seeking clarification that Her Majesty’s Government, when they know there is a case that is relevant to a citizen or party in the UK, automatically bring forth any evidence that Her Majesty’s Government have.

[Lord Bellamy (Con)]

I think the answer to that question is in the affirmative. The UK Government follow carefully any case that concerns UK citizens under the convention.

Child Trust Funds

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Monday 11th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as chairman of the Children’s Mutual, which, I believe, was the largest provider of child trust funds. Has my noble friend’s department consulted with the senior management of the Children’s Mutual and, perhaps, a couple of other leading providers? I do believe that, when the child trust fund was launched, there was some provision in case of difficulties that might arise at a later time. In any case, now may be the right time to make sure that the industry can help.

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My Lords, we have consulted widely across industry with the major providers. I have to say to my noble friend that it is the case, I am afraid, that there was a lacuna here. I think the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, who is not in his place now, candidly accepted that when child trust funds were put in place, no thought was given to people who would not be able to give instructions to banks at the time they turned 18. The Mental Capacity Act in 2005 only made that position more difficult. So we are now dealing with a problem that has been exacerbated by subsequent legislation. The way to deal with it is a small payments scheme: that is what we are going to consult on.

Whiplash Injury Regulations 2021

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Monday 26th April 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Naseby (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I support these regulations. The objectives are good and clear, although on reflection, perhaps it is a pity it has taken so long—four years—for action. It is good to see Her Majesty’s Government working closely with the ABI, and it in turn with its members, and it is good to hear that everyone is organised for when the portal goes live on 31 May. I like the linkage between the Treasury, the FCA and the industry to assess whether policyholders have benefited from any savings made by insurers as a result of the Act.

However, I am deeply concerned about minor injuries claims. There is the potential here for a huge challenge of quasi-bogus claims from claims management companies and claimant lawyers. I say that because we already have evidence from earlier debates about what is happening in relation to credit lending, particularly payday lending and the backlash against the home-collected-credit format that has been with us for well over 100 years. These claims management companies manufacture complaints and use social media marketing techniques to farm spurious claims in large—in fact, huge—volumes. They end up at the Financial Ombudsman Service, which finds itself facing this mass dumping of claims and has to produce what it calls “mass settlements”, which are then passed on in the cases that we have been debating elsewhere to the actual companies that are doing the lending. In this case, they will be dumped on the insurance companies. Can my noble friend therefore make sure that he is fully briefed on what has been happening in what is in effect an allied industry?

Public Health (Coronavirus) (Protection from Eviction) (England) Regulations 2021

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome my noble friend to the Front Bench. I have been involved in housing matters of a political nature for half a century. I was housing chairman for the London Borough of Islington, which at that time—the 1960s—was difficult for tenants and the economy under Harold Wilson. I have been deeply involved with the mutual movement and social housing. I am sure that my noble friend knows this but there are rogue, bad landlords around. We had Rachman and De Lusignan. Their equivalents are there today. There are also rogue tenants, who were a problem then and now.

The kernel of this SI is about normal tenancies and normal tenants who face particular difficulties due to the pandemic. I say to my noble friend, who is enormously welcome to the Front Bench: can we please plan ahead? Why did we not review this issue at least 10 days earlier? February 21 is two and a half weeks away, not even three. That is not long.

I have looked at the four categories and I am comfortable with three of them, but not with the category of substantial rent arrears. Questions arise. We—my Government—have done a good job on the homeless but, if we now find ourselves in another crunch period whereby people are made homeless, that will fall on the local authorities just when they have been working tremendously hard to make things operate as normally as possible. What are we going to do? I suggest two things. One should be to quickly announce that the scheme, whatever it may be—some revisions may be needed after this debate—will run until Easter. Secondly, I have looked at the schemes run in Wales and Scotland. I do not find much in favour of the one in Scotland but the tenant hardship loan in Wales has a lot going for it. It might need a bit of fine tuning to English conditions; nevertheless, it may be the way forward.

Frankly, I do not understand why there has to be a 1% charge. Are we not hoping that we are beginning to come to the end of the pandemic? There should be no interest charge but a hardship loan, with people implementing it who understand how it works and how tenants can ensure that they play their roles.

Finally, my dear and noble friend Lord Bourne asked a valid question about the change from nine months’ to six months’ arrears. I say to my noble friend on the Front Bench that housing was never an easy job but, at this point in time, the middle category of people who are genuinely good tenants in normal times are those who need this help.

Counter-Terrorism and Sentencing Bill

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 26th January 2021 Lords Chamber

The legislation is complex, and I often wish that we would legislate less by cross-referencing and more by clearly stating the effect of what we do. Our point in opposing this clause stand part question is simple: in the rush to introduce tougher sentences for offences with a terrorist connection, the Bill proposes effectively to deny defendants a right to a trial for the offences of which they are accused. In each such case, the real offence of which the defendant stands accused is the aggravated offence of committing the basic offence in the course of an act of terrorism or for the purposes of terrorism. Applying fundamental principles of English criminal justice, that defendant should be charged with that offence, tried for it on the evidence—including the evidence of the aggravating terrorist connection—by a jury of his peers and, if convicted, or on a plea of guilty, sentenced accordingly. He should not be tried, as the Bill proposes, and convicted for the basic offence only, and only then be tried effectively by a judge alone for the aggravated offence.

[Lord Naseby (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I have a very different view from the opponent of the clause standing part. The UK Government, regardless of who is in power, obviously recognise at this point in time that the fundamental dimensions of this Bill are about the safety of the United Kingdom against terrorism. Our problem is that we are still a very open nation.

Whether it is in Afghanistan, the Middle East or Asia, in all those parts of the world we take an active role in promoting democracy. We see it occasionally with refugees who come to this country. Genuine refugees are welcome, but hidden within the alleged genuine refugees are, too often, terrorists or quasi-terrorists. It is against that background that my noble friend on the Front Bench is rightly introducing this Bill in Committee. If people think I am exaggerating, I have had personal death threats from the IRA. I happened to represent Northampton South, which had an IRA cell in the early 70s. Colleagues may know that I have been deeply involved in Sri Lanka for 50 years, and I am sorry to report that some number of illegal entrants to our country were active members of the LTTE Tamil Tigers. So the challenge is there, and we need to recognise it.

I praise those in our party who have decided the time has come to look again at the sentencing of terrorism. The problem is made worse by the misunderstanding—whether it be genuine or otherwise—of the difference between human rights and the original European Convention on Human Rights, which, of course, was the basis of our Human Rights Act. That is fine, but it should not cover elements where a war took place. Again, I cite Sri Lanka, because that was a ghastly war between a democratically elected Government and a terrorist movement, proscribed by the United Kingdom Government in in its last few months in 2001. The law that looks after the rights in that context is international humanitarian law.

It may surprise colleagues to know that under the generosity of previous Governments, we in the UK allowed the number two man running the Tamil Tigers to have an office in Camden. Okay, he was a British citizen, but he was in charge throughout the period when I was involved, and his wife—an Australian lady, now, obviously, with joint British citizenship—was involved in recruiting child soldiers. We had these people living in our midst. I say to my noble friend on the Front Bench: well done in bringing the Bill forward. Clause 1, to me, is absolutely fundamental to it, and I wish it a safe and swift passage.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD) [V]]

My Lords, it is a privilege, as always, to follow the noble Lord. I respect his point of view and the experiences he has had. I am sure he will appreciate we are concerned with the rule of law and preserving the reputation this country has for justice done in the proper way.

Terrorist activity is an aggravating factor in sentencing. Section 30 of the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 enables courts to increase the sentence if it is established that the offence has a terrorist element. But the 2008 Act limited the use of this provision to the specific offences in Schedule 2, which were those most commonly connected with terrorist attacks or ancillary to them. The primary offences listed involved murder, manslaughter, violence to the person and explosives, nuclear, biological material and hijacking offences. The proposal in Clause 1 extends the offences that can be aggravated by a terrorist element to include any offence in the whole criminal calendar punishable with imprisonment for more than two years. This is an enormous widening of the provisions of the 2008 Act. The main feature of these provisions is that the issue of whether there is a terrorist element in an offence is not determined by a jury, notwithstanding the fact that these cases will inevitably be heard on indictment in the Crown Court.

The decision that there is a terrorist connection becomes part of the sentencing process, to be determined by the trial judge alone after conviction. Could the Minister explain the process the Government envisage? Would it be the equivalent of a Newton hearing, with a separate trial of the issue in which evidence is called and arguments heard on which the judge’s decision is based, or would the judge be entitled to come to a conclusion based on the evidence he has heard in the trial before the jury? It is an important decision. It is not just that his finding will add years of imprisonment to the individual defendant but, as my noble friend Lord Marks said a moment ago, it will trigger the terrorism notification requirements and the restrictions on early release contained in the Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of Early Release) Act 2020.

Surely, in the traditions of the criminal law of this country, a suspect believed to be involved in terrorist offences should be charged with those offences. It should be for the jury to decide whether there is sufficient evidence to sustain such charges. It cannot be right to charge the suspect with lesser offences and allow the judge to add the icing to the cake. There is no way in which this clause can be satisfactorily amended; consequently, the only thing to do is throw it out.

Let me give a pertinent example which everybody will understand after the events of last year. Suppose a jury finds a Whitehall protestor guilty of occasioning actual bodily harm to a rival protestor outside the gates of Downing Street, by punching him on the nose and stealing his flag. Under this clause, the judge could find proved, after the jury’s verdict, that the use of force to influence the UK Government and intimidate the public was for the purpose of advancing an ideological cause and therefore well within the definition of terrorism in the pursuit of, shall we say, exiting the European Union. Does the Minister—whom I welcome to his seat in the House of Lords—agree?

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)]

We still cannot reach the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Naseby.

[Lord Naseby (Con) [V]]

My Lords, the Bill makes a welcome change to the sentencing, release and monitoring of terrorism offenders by toughening up the law. This is a time of higher risk—something that has not been referred to by our noble friends the lawyers. I am no lawyer, but I study the Middle East and south Asia in some depth, and I have lived abroad for a number of years. I have very good contacts in those parts of the world and, in my judgment, the risk of terrorism at this time is higher than we have ever experienced.

I might say as a side issue that I get concerned when organisations such as Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and others call vociferously for the deletion of Clauses 37, 38 and 40. I am, frankly, not impressed by their objectivity. I wish I could be, but they and others I could mention, such as Freedom from Torture, do not in my experience bring objectivity to these types of cases. I contrast that with the work of the International Committee of the Red Cross, the ICRC—although it is not involved in these cases on the whole—and Médecins Sans Frontières, both of which are involved in issues relating to torture, and they are very objective in their assessments.

It is objectivity that one wants. The British public has to understand and be convinced that any change that is made will help to deal with terrorism. I think, on having looked at the Bill, that Clause 27 is right. It is all very well for noble Lords to say that the numbers who abscond or the cases where people are released early are small, but the number of people who were killed in Manchester was not small. In most places where there is terrorist activity, the numbers are not small. I see my role in the upper House as being one where I look after the British public. It is not a risk assessment. The only risk is that someone will reoffend. When facing the challenge of that situation, I do not think that we can suggest to the British public that some of these men and women who have carried out heinous crimes should be released early on an objective risk assessment.

I make one other point. As it happens, I am doing a bit of work on national service, something which older Members of your Lordships’ House may well have done in the Army, the Royal Navy or the Royal Air Force. In my case, I was a pilot in the air force. I think of myself at the age of 21. We were all 18 years old when we did our national service. We were young men who were risking our lives and we were ready to fight; many lost their lives. I wonder whether 21 is too high an age; I personally would drop it to 18, which was the age at which you had to do your national service. However, that goes rather wider than what we are considering here.

As far as I am concerned, the Government are taking absolutely the right road. We have to toughen up on sentencing and we have to toughen up on early release and the monitoring of offenders because the risks at this point in time are very real.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD) (V)]

My Lords, by coincidence I am once again following the noble Lord, Lord Naseby. I would remind him that there have been high-risk periods before. His words reminded me of the Brighton bomb case, in which I took a part. The person I represented had been involved in a bombing campaign that covered some 28 seaside resorts, and the Brighton bomb case was the final one. When I look at Clause 31, I reflect on that case, because that clause, like the other clauses we are dealing with, is the one which says that there should be no parole for terrorism offences committed in Northern Ireland. In the Brighton bomb case, those who were convicted and sent to prison within weeks of the Belfast agreement were returned to Northern Ireland to serve out their sentences there—and within a very short time they were released. We have faced problems like this before.

The benefits of a two-thirds release system have been outlined by previous speakers: they encourage people to behave while in prison and to engage in deradicalisation and rehabilitation courses. That is done to persuade the Parole Board that the individual is safe to be released—to advance by hope and decrease hopelessness, as my noble friend Lord Marks put it. The Parole Board ought to have a role in this, and I was impressed by the views expressed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, that perhaps the Parole Board should at least have a role in advising on the conditions of release as opposed to the governor taking on the role, as is being proposed.

There are dangers in automatic release at the end of a sentence. No doubt the full sentence has been completed, but the automatic release at the end of that time without any Parole Board involvement is a danger, as my noble friend Lord Marks and the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, have argued. I do not think that the solutions that have been developed and put into the Bill are necessarily the right ones, so I support my noble friend in his attempt to have these clauses removed.

Armed Services: War Crimes

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Tuesday 1st March 2016 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Naseby]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether it is their position that the proper law for determining whether British troops have committed war crimes should be the laws of armed conflict, otherwise known as international humanitarian law, rather than the European Convention on Human Rights.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks)]

My Lords, international humanitarian law and domestic criminal law are the bodies of law to determine whether British troops have committed war crimes. Our Armed Forces are among the best in the world and operate to the highest standards of discipline. The forthcoming Bill of Rights will protect their ability to do their jobs without being subject to persistent human rights claims.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that British troops should only be sued for violation of human rights if they have already been convicted of crimes contrary to the laws of armed conflict?

[Lord Faulks]

All our troops should, of course, be subject to the law: none is above it. However, the question of the Human Rights Act raises rather different matters. There has been a number of claims based on alleged contraventions of the convention and, thus, the Human Rights Act. These have caused considerable —and sometimes unjustified—difficulties for soldiers and the Armed Forces. This is why our forthcoming Bill of Rights will attempt to deal with these persistent human rights claims.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012: Part 1

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Monday 8th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

On the contrary, I thought that I had made it clear in my Answer that we are not leaving it for three to five years. The intention is to monitor and review the impact of LASPO on all the affected groups outlined in the equality impact assessment. The Legal Aid Agency, Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service and providers will complement the use of administrative data with bespoke research exercises where appropriate. We have worked with the Legal Services Board and the Law Society to carry out a survey of providers of legal advice that will provide a baseline against which changes might be measured in the future. Ad hoc reviews are also conducted where a provider stops undertaking legal aid work.

I am not pretending that law centres have not been hit by this change. However, as I indicated in the previous answer, we have given a lot of money to the transition fund to help law centres and other not-for-profit sectors to reorganise so that they remain effective.

[Lord Naseby]

Is it not extraordinary that lawyers in the United Kingdom appear to think that around £220 million—the saving required—is a figure that should be brushed aside, and that after just three months there should be a review of the whole process? I urge the Minister to give a strong answer to the judiciary’s response to the consultation, particularly given that the response stated:

“Many young and talented lawyers are no longer choosing to practise in crime”,

which in the long term will affect the quality of the defence and prosecution barristers involved in criminal trials. Is it really the responsibility of the legal aid budget to fund that dimension of legal practice?

[Lord McNally]

Welcome though my noble friend’s intervention was, he is treading on areas that we will be debating on Thursday, when we have a very full and interesting debate on legal aid. I will say, however, that the noble Lord, Lord Bach, spent most of the last year predicting a perfect storm when LASPO came into effect. In fact, there has not been a perfect storm: the market is adjusting and advice is being given. However, the not-for-profit sector has had to make the adjustment that many others, including my own department, have had to make in the face of economic realities.

Justice: Legal Advice

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Monday 11th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, we are working on some of these issues. We are working with the judiciary to improve guidelines for people representing themselves in court. We are developing a new online information service to help people find out if they are eligible for legal aid or signpost them to other services. We are giving £65 million of funding to help not-for-profit social welfare advice providers to adapt and transition over the next two years. We are also encouraging innovations in the legal services market, such as the provision of lower-cost advice services to help people in resolving their problems.

[Lord Naseby]

My Lords, how can anybody make a useful assessment in such a short time as there is from now to the changes? Should we not recognise that great trouble has been taken over these proposed changes? In a very tight financial situation, has not the time come to see what happens and then, if necessary, make changes one way or the other?

[Lord McNally]

I thank my noble friend for that question. It is true that the noble Lord, Lord Bach, has made something of a cottage industry of—

Elections: Fraud

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Monday 1st November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

It is a matter for the Electoral Commission; it is going to produce a report in January, and my recommendation, as an elector and a citizen—never mind being a Minister—is that all three political parties study that report very carefully and then see if we can come together to try to tighten it up still further. Nothing I said either the last time or today suggests any impropriety as far as I am concerned. I am leaving it to the Electoral Commission, the police and the returning officers in the constituencies concerned, which is exactly as it should be.

[Lord Naseby]

Is my noble friend aware that he is absolutely right in the position he takes—not least as someone who has sat through a fair number of recounts? However, is he not also correct in saying that, when the police have investigated, they do report? We have the case of Bristol East, where the newly elected Labour Member has been cautioned by the police for the use she made of—it is reported— the postal votes on her Twitter, and, rightly, that is fraud under Section 63 of the Elections Act 1983.

Elections: Voting Systems

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Tuesday 5th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I am well aware of the noble Lord’s views on first past the post, but he will be equally aware that many people consider the system to be deeply flawed. Most of the systems referred to were introduced by the previous Administration on the basis of horses for courses, taking into account what was most suitable for Scotland, for London and for Europe. I am sure that this debate will go on, not least when my right honourable friend Nick Clegg brings forward his proposals for due consideration in this House.

[Lord Naseby]

My Lords, instead of worrying about electoral systems, should not the Government be spending more time looking at electoral registration, particularly the registration of postal votes, so that at least our electoral register gets up to a better level than it has been at in recent years?

[Lord McNally]

My noble friend has raised that issue before and I share his concern. Proposals have been brought forward for individual registration and identification of postal votes. He is on the right road and I assure him that the Government will continue to pursue that course to make sure that our register is accurate and, as far as possible, fraud-free.