Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 27th October 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I shall speak very briefly. I had the privilege, before being an MP, of working as a director of one of the major advertising agencies. We had, as clients, one of the tobacco companies. I have seen the tobacco industry for 50 years and have watched what has been happening where it has been responsible and where it has not. On the whole, the industry has been responsible. I look at the NHS and the work that was done jointly with the industry on education, particularly with general practitioners, which has worked. We all know it has worked. That is why there has been a steady decline thanks to our GPs being the voice, helped by the industry itself.

On statistics, I have an upper second in economics from the University of Cambridge, but HMRC does not have a track record—whether it is a Conservative or Labour Government—of being terribly good at its forecasting. I read that, according to the brief, HMRC says that the loss from illegal importation et cetera is £2.2 billion. We have the figures from at least as good an organisation, if not better: the ONS. Its consumer spending data suggests that the figure is over £6 billion. Either way, it is a huge figure for the current Chancellor to look at very seriously. In my judgment, it is clearly nearer the £6 billion figure than the £2.2 billion.

Lastly—nobody has raised this—have His Majesty’s Government looked at what Sweden did in terms of educating young people? The success of the Government in Sweden on their particular challenges has been the in-depth education of young people in that country about the evils of smoking. If His Majesty’s Government have not done that yet, might I suggest that it is high time they did. I believe the amendments before us are worth supporting. They may not be perfect, but they are certainly a lot better than the case history we have from Australia, which is really worrying.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, I want to add a brief footnote to the excellent speeches from my noble friends Lord Bourne and Lord Bethell. This group of amendments is probably the most important one that confronts this Committee because it challenges a major plank underpinning the Government’s approach to this by challenging the generational ban. It is appropriate that this group contains not just the first of the marshalled amendments but the last.

A long time ago, I held the position of the Minister as a Health Minister. From 1979 to 1981, I was in charge of the negotiations with the tobacco industry—the Tobacco Advisory Council as it then was—and I adopted a fairly aggressive negotiation tactic. When I suggested that the health warnings should not be just on the packets but the cigarettes, they told me I could not do this as the ink was carcinogenic. In 1981, my tactics proved a little too much for the then Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher, who moved me to a less confrontational position on that issue.

I have listened with respect to the arguments made by my noble friends in favour of Amendment 1, which would basically substitute the generational ban with a ban for anyone under 21. As my noble friend Lord Howe said on Second Reading, these issues involve a balance between personal freedoms on one hand and health gain on the other, a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox. Noble Lords may come down on different sides of the argument in free vote territory, but it seems to me the weakness of the amendment is simply its lack of ambition. It does not appear to bring to an end the harm done by the tobacco industry which is the whole point of the generational ban. As the former Prime Minister said last week, it was one of his proudest initiatives of those he introduced when he was Prime Minister.

It is worth just reminding your Lordships that the Bill passed the other place twice, once with a majority of 415 to 47. Last year, when my party was in government and had a free vote, I noted that the vast majority of Conservative MPs voted for the Bill, with just 67 voting against, and only two members of the Cabinet of about 30 voted against. So I hope that the broad policy introduced by the previous Government will continue to be carried through by this one and that a free vote will be allowed on my side for those who take a different view. I also recognise that the Bill is actually a little different from the one that was introduced last year.

This amendment would indeed reduce the harm done by smoking, but the Government’s own assessment concludes that a generational ban promises a far greater effect on smoking prevalence and broader support among young people. We should not want a smaller scale of ambition for a product that has killed a million people in this country over the last 50 years. The increase in the age of sale was a bit of policy conceived on evidence and based on long-term public health reform. It has strong public support, and it is backed by experts.

As the noble Lord, Lord Bichard, said, this does not impact current smokers. The impact on personal freedom is less under the Government’s proposal than under the amendment. The rewards from this are substantial: fewer young people taking up smoking, fewer families suffering avoidable disease and loss, and a future in which our economy and NHS are no longer burdened by the toll from tobacco.

I will say a quick word about the black market. I can do no better than to quote what Victoria Atkins said when this point was raised when she introduced nearly the same Bill last year. On the point about

“the age of sale and the black market, tobacco industry representatives claim that there will be unintended consequences from raising the age of sale. They assert that the black market will boom. Before the smoking age was increased from 16 to 18, they sang from the same hymn sheet, but the facts showed otherwise. The number of illicit cigarettes consumed fell by 25%, and smoking rates for 16 and 17-year-olds dropped by almost a third”.—[Official Report, Commons, 16/4/24; col. 188.]

So I recognise the concerns of some of my noble friends on the libertarian wing of my party, but I remind them that crash helmets were made compulsory under the Heath Government in 1973; seatbelts became compulsory for drivers under the Thatcher Government in 1983 and for all passengers in 1981 under John Major. The previous Conservative Government introduced the Health and Care Act, which unblocked progress in adding fluoride to the water supply to promote dental health. So the generational ban is consistent with my party’s approach to public health over the last 50 years and I hope it will be sustained in this Parliament.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Lord Naseby Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 23rd April 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I have been involved with the tobacco industry since 1963, when I joined a major advertising agency. I was responsible for the marketing of all Gallaher’s products. I have taken part, I think, in every debate since then on the subject, both in the other place and here.

This is an important Bill. One of the biggest problems today is the differential between the price of a packet of cigarettes for the ordinary consumer and the price on the black market: it is roughly £17 at the tobacconist or wherever but £3.50 illegally. That amounts to a market of £6 billion—a frightening figure. I accept that His Majesty’s Government have said that they will provide an extra £10 million to try to add some control, but that is very small beer against the rampant use of illegal tobacco and cigarettes. The Government have the report from the Home Office that the National Business Crime Centre commissioned. It clearly says:

“The UK has one of the highest tobacco taxation regimes in the world. As the retail price of tobacco products increases, and legislative changes are introduced to restrict their availability … the demand for illegal tobacco products is set to grow dramatically”.


I am also an economist, and that is absolutely right—that is what will happen.

Secondly, I guess that all of us who buy our newspapers still use CTNs or other tobacconists. Those people are suffering. We have to recognise that crime against them—the way they are being beaten up or forced to make payments—is growing exponentially, which is really worrying.

Then there is the case history of Australia. As politicians, we know that we should look at case histories. I am sure that the Minister knows about the written evidence given by the Australians to the other place. They make it quite clear that the way that the legislation, which is not far different from what we are proposing here, was implemented in Australia was a disaster. We should at least look at that and weigh it up; it is a very strong case history.

The noble Lord, Lord Dodds, is not in his place, but he raised Northern Ireland. Having been a PPS on Northern Ireland a while ago, I believe that the Bill as it is now is totally incompatible with the Windsor Framework rules and TPD2. I do not see how His Majesty’s Government will get around that, because Northern Ireland will have to follow exactly what southern Ireland does, which is setting its controls at the age of 21.

Someone mentioned Sweden. That is a nice case history of the education of young people. Again, we could look at that and learn something. The whole success of Sweden as far as I can see—I have looked at it fairly carefully—rested on how it made young people understand the risks they were running. As has been said, that is now the biggest success in Europe.

I do not think that a generational Bill is necessary. I am sure that there has to be control but, frankly, the generational dimension makes it needlessly complicated. We should look at the experience of other people and take the decision that 21 should be the age for alcohol as well as for cigarettes and all other tobacco products. We will know where we are, and then we can really enforce it and make sure that our young people do not take up tobacco, et cetera.

NHS: Electronic Patient Record Systems

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Wednesday 12th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

Research and data are absolutely key to the 10-year plan and the shifts that I referred to earlier. I also draw the noble Lord’s attention to the data security and protection toolkit. It is an online assessment tool that allows organisations to measure their performance against the National Data Guardian’s 10 data security standards. I know there is a question among some members of the public about this, but perhaps I could, overall, reassure the noble Lord that we see data as key to research. I certainly agree with his comments about outcomes for patients being better.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, if the Minister is looking for a current successful case history, I recommend Bedford Hospital. I was referred to the external clinic on the 20th and tested for X, Y and Z. A bed was found for me at 2 am. I had four nights in Bedford Hospital, since when I have had three different departments, all of which had full details from my GP and the other departments involved. Not only that but I happened to go to the Moorfields clinic which is attached to it—it is external—which had them as well. So, there is a good case history.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The noble Lord is an exemplar when he describes the quality of care and the joined-up approach of the data and information relating to him. I am delighted to hear that Bedford Hospital was so good to him. I am sure it will appreciate him sharing that with your Lordships’ House, and I add my thanks too.

Vaping Products: Usage by Children

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Monday 2nd September 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I have no direct involvement in this industry but it is fair to say that, back in the early 1960s, I was a director of an advertising agency responsible for Gallaher products. In my 50 years of work, both here and in the other place, I have taken a continual interest in the industry and the challenges it has faced. At this time, those challenges are quite clear. Sadly, the situation in that industry is one of good, responsible manufacturers and illicit marketing by others—mainly from abroad, but not entirely.

The industrialists who are marketing here responsibly have recently called for more regulation—not less—to tackle the worrying rise in youth vaping. As I understand it, they have called for a ban on packaging with youth appeal, reform of the flavour names to get products such as “gummy bear” and “unicorn” off the shelves, and the creation of a retailer licensing scheme. The latter would not only prevent irresponsible retailers selling to underage customers but help to stop the sale of illicit vapes by shopkeepers.

That is on the one hand. On the other, we have to recognise that vaping has helped reduce consumption of cigarettes. That is a tribute to our Governments over the years and the work between, usually, the Department of Health and the relevant manufacturers. It is a success. We are now down to 12.9% of the nation smoking. Not so long ago, 50% of the nation smoked. That advance is a tribute to our Governments; indeed, my noble friend Lord Bethell was one of the Ministers who helped to achieve that. We are getting between 50,000 and 70,000 people to quit thanks to the availability of vaping, because those smokers try vaping, the majority of them find it helps and they stop smoking. A very significant sum of money is saved, certainly in terms of the cost to the National Health Service.

Yes, the statistics among the young are going up—or they have been, to be more accurate; it appears from the latest ASH report that they have stabilised. Yes, nearly 20% of 11 to 17 year-olds have tried vaping, but that leaves 80% who have not. Of those who have tried, a third are now vaping, but that means two-thirds have rejected it. It should not be terribly difficult to get a handle on that. That is the challenge that we face.

For me, this is the key point as far as the smoking side is concerned: whoever is involved must remember very carefully that if anybody was to ban single-use vapes, alongside other restrictions such as on flavours, display and packaging, 58% of current smokers who vape said they would either continue to purchase single-use vapes from illegal sources or switch back to tobacco. We do not want that to happen. That seems fundamental to the way forward.

The last Government had the Swap to Stop scheme, which had some success. It delivered many tens of thousands of refillable vapes to adult smokers, as evidenced by a recent survey by the IBVTA, where more than 57% of e-liquid supplies were fruit flavoured. That is good news. Also, a code of conduct is now in place with the leading manufacturers, which was not there until relatively recently. They have embraced ensuring that product flavours are responsibly marketed and state that the use of emotional flavour names has no place in a legitimate market. The regulation of flavours must be carefully considered, given their clear importance to adults quitting smoking and preventing adult vapers switching back.

For me, the key to all this is that, as a nation, we have a compliant sector that—as far as I can see, as someone who tracks it a bit—has invested significant resources to meet environmental compliance targets through producer compliance schemes and retail take-back. If we were tempted to go down the route of prohibiting a whole class of products, we would undermine the points I made about the effect on existing people who want to quit.

I hope that before His Majesty’s Government take any further action they look at what has happened in Australia and the US recently. There are some reports out from both those countries, where there were unintended consequences. Those are well worth looking at.

At the end of the day, a third of the market comprises illicit vapes. That is a huge percentage, and those illicit vapes are unregulated, untested and a material threat to consumer safety. We have to deal with that situation. We need a comprehensive and collaborative enforcement strategy, with resources for trading standards and related enforcement. It may well be that we need a retail licensing scheme on top of that as a key to that policy. If we went down that route we would, in my judgment, make good continuing progress on helping smokers to get off smoking and put a cap on what has been happening among an element of our young people.