Crime and Courts Bill [HL]

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Wednesday 12th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

I rise briefly in support of the masterly way in which the noble Lord, Lord Dear, has introduced and covered every aspect of this amendment. I just want to say three things. First, freedom of speech is essential. There is always a tendency for there to be well intended restrictions, and then there are unintended consequences. This is what has happened in this particular sphere.

Secondly, it is crucial that the Director of Public Prosecutions has changed his mind. I have a great respect —having been the Attorney-General and responsible for the Director of Public Prosecutions—for the experience and wisdom of the director, whoever he happens to be. In this case, he has said—and I repeat what has already been said,

“we are unable to identify a case in which the alleged behaviour leading to conviction could not properly be characterised as ‘abusive’ as well as ‘insulting’”.

He said the word “insulting” could “safely be removed”. I think we should pay regard to that opinion. The correspondence we have heard of and received describes excess of zeal by a particular officer, which has led to the distress of those who have been prosecuted. The last example given by the noble Lord, Lord Dear, concerned the causing of distress to a pair of Labradors by saying “woof woof” in the hearing of a policeman. That is true; it happened, it was prosecuted and the person was convicted and fined £50. Fortunately, that conviction was quashed on appeal. I will not go on; I think the case is proved.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

My Lords, like many other people, I received a large number of e-mails and letters all going one way in support of the noble Lord’s amendment. I would just like to tell the House about one letter I received. In my very untidy desk, I have lost it, but it was about a lay preacher who preaches on the street and preaches on Sundays in church. He happens to subscribe to a literal form of the Old Testament with which I do not agree, but he was preaching on his literal interpretation in the street. Someone complained to the police, and he was arrested and spent seven hours in the police station. He was placed on police bail on the order that he was not allowed to preach. If that is not an abuse of the freedom of speech, I do not know what is. I cannot understand why the Minister and the Government are not supporting this amendment.

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[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, it may well be. The answer is that I do not know. There has to be a proper examination of the evidence. If I was absolutely clear, and if we could be absolutely confident that this poor woman, Miss Williams, who was abused on a train, would be covered without the word “insulting”, I would move forward on this. I think that we could accept that. Until we have evidence from the Government that allows us to be absolutely clear that we are protecting people who are subject to abuse and insult—

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

If my noble friend wants evidence, would she not take into account the views of the Director of Public Prosecutions who is in charge of all prosecutions and has reached the view that without this word there are sufficient grounds to prosecute in this kind of instance?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I would absolutely take that view on information from the Director of Public Prosecutions. However, that also has to be seen in line with the consultation that the Government have undertaken. A letter produced today does not give me confidence that we would protect those people. I do not know whether the Director of Public Prosecutions has looked at the case of Mr Braithewaite and Heather Williams, if that is what he has in mind. If the DPP could give an assurance on that case and other successful prosecutions, it would give me a lot of reassurance that we are not removing protection.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My noble friend must have regard to the fact that the director is the head of the prosecution service. He is in charge of the Crown Prosecution Service. It is the CPS which takes the decision on whether a prosecution should take place. From his long experience at the Bar and in the law, I am sure that he has taken into account the views of all his colleagues in the service. Is that to be disregarded?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I am not disputing that. I am disputing that that should be taken in context with the other information. We have been waiting for almost a year for the Government’s consultation response. It is a disgrace that it has not been made available to the House. It is for the Government to justify that and not me.

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[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I will urge noble Lords to reject the amendment.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

Would the noble Lord like to comment on the fact that the Director of Public Prosecutions has changed his mind? How do the Government respond to and answer that change of decision?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The letter is available, no doubt, from the noble Lord, Lord Dear, in full. I suggest that noble Lords read the full text of the letter, not just selective quotations.

Extradition

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Tuesday 16th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Browning]

My Lords—

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords—

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The only group we have not yet heard from is the Conservative group.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I thank my noble friend for raising Asperger’s and autism in general, conditions which are extremely complex and difficult. She has been prominent in bringing that to the attention of Parliament. I am only too grateful to take her advice and recommendation, and to pass that on to colleagues in the Ministry of Justice.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

I welcome the reduced involvement of the Home Secretary in human rights cases and in the kind of case with which we are dealing. It is usually a sound step, and the perception as well as the reality of political involvement is reduced. Hence, I welcome it. However, will the Minister indicate what is meant by a significant reduction in “delays in certain cases” by transferring these matters from the Minister to the courts?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I thank the noble and learned Lord for that question. It is quite overt that in a number of instances, there have been considerable delays. The main thrust of our changes will be to try to expedite the legal process. The process will be speeded up by retaining cases within the legal system and not bringing them back into the political system. I hope that I have been able to answer him.

Abu Qatada

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Tuesday 7th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, under no circumstances do we want to make use or encourage the use of evidence that has been obtained by torture. In that, I would agree with my noble friend. All I can say on the memorandum of understanding with the Jordanian Government is that we will continue to discuss this matter with the Jordanian authorities so that we can ensure that we can get the deportation of Qatada, but get it in such a manner that any trial he faces there will be compliant with Article 6, which is what we are seeking to do. We thought that that was what our courts—I think it was the House of Lords before the creation of the Supreme Court—had said was the case. For some reason known only to the European Court of Human Rights—but, then, one always has strange views about it—that court did not agree with us on this occasion.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords, I am sure that the whole House will agree that public safety must be paramount, and I am confident that Her Majesty's Government are doing their utmost in this situation. Did I understand from the Minister’s Statement that something was being done to avoid this kind of situation in the future? On appeals, did he indicate that we could appeal to the Grand Chamber? Would that be evidence-based, and would every ounce of effort be made to ensure that there is such evidence? Do I presume correctly that there is no appeal from the granting of bail?

Crime: Media Reporting

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Tuesday 8th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Borrie]

My Lords—

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords—

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

My Lords—

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[Baroness Neville-Jones]

Yes, my Lords. I think that the police would agree that they need to be scrupulous in applying the guidance that they have in such cases. Indeed, they should apply it in relation to a person who has been detained by them but not charged. They should take care not to impugn that person’s reputation.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords, while the press are usually economical in the reporting of an arrested person, would I be right in surmising that the Attorney-General would have expressed some anxieties about the extent of the reports on the arrests in the Bristol case? As Attorney-General, I sometimes had to refer to the courts cases about which I was anxious. I did so not always successfully, as it was not easy to judge where the line had been crossed. In discussions between the Attorney-General and the press, would there be any merit in revisiting the boundary lines of what is fair reporting without prejudicing an arrested person?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, the Attorney-General will obviously take his remit extremely seriously. I do not know whether he will choose that route; the view has certainly been expressed, so I have no doubt that he will take notice of it. I can assure the House that the Attorney-General is quite clear that he needs to examine this issue seriously, because it has considerable ramifications.

European Arrest Warrant and Investigation Order

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Wednesday 26th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, in this House of legal eagles I hesitate, as a non-lawyer, to get on to the grounds, but I understand that the principle of habeas corpus is indeed a legal remedy against unlawful detention. It is therefore right to say that the European arrest warrant in principle is compliant. I accept entirely, however, that there is dissatisfaction with the warrant’s operation, which is what the Government have asked Sir Scott Baker to look into.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

Can the Minister give some indication of how many people have been extradited from this country and to this country in recent years?

Identity Documents Bill

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Tuesday 21st December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. Before she sits down—

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords—

[Earl Attlee]

We should listen to the quick intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Howarth.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

I agree with the noble Baroness that the constitution issue has to be disentangled from the question of what is immediately to be done about the practical issue—the substance of the policy—in the Government’s rejection of the amendment that was made in this House. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, the Lord Speaker, is already engaged in this matter—I am sure that she is—and that she will wish to hold discussions with the Speaker of the House of Commons about the possibility that the doctrine of financial privilege is being extended in a manner that is dangerous to the interests of this House and the fulfilment of its proper responsibilities.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, made a powerful case on whether or not a right of property has been established. He made an equally powerful case on the last occasion that we debated the matter. I asked then whether advice had been sought by the Minister, particularly from the law officers, as that would have been helpful. I understood that we might be told before Third Reading that that advice had been sought. In the Bill there is a declaration that the legislation is compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights. Having heard the powerful arguments of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, is the Minister satisfied that that is the case?

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My name was on the amendment and I have listened carefully to what my noble friend the Minister said in opening the debate. Three issues need clarifying before we can safely push this matter forward. The first has been well aired—namely, whether this is compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights. The noble Baroness will tell us very soon whether she has had clear advice from the law officers that it is compatible. I line up with the noble Lord, Lord Pannick: it is difficult to comprehend that this confiscatory measure can be consistent with the protocol. That is the first issue.

The second issue has also been well aired—my noble friend Lady Hamwee has just referred to it—namely, whether we can at this juncture pick a fight with the Commons on its reasons. I listened carefully to what the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, said and I would be the first to leap on to the barricades if I felt that the privileges of this House were being undermined, but we need clear advice on that. Perhaps the learned Clerk may have something to say. I am very disappointed to see him shake his bewigged head. My own sense, for what it is worth, is that the Commons have a case. The amendment is a specifically money amendment; it specifically commits the Exchequer to compensation at the rate of £30 per ID card surrendered.

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[Baroness Neville-Jones]

I do not think that I am able to enlighten the House any further on the question of taking legal advice. We believe our actions to be lawful.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

I have the record of our debate on the previous occasion in Hansard. I asked, and my noble friend Lord Hunt has referred to this:

“On the assumption that no advice has been obtained from the law officers on these matters, would it be prudent before the next stage of the Bill to obtain such advice?”.

The Minister replied:

“My Lords, I will confirm the advice that I have received”.

I asked:

“Is the advice from the law officers?”,

and the Minister replied:

“I am not sure that I can confirm that. I will seek to do so before Third Reading”—

that is, confirmation that advice had been received from the law officers.

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, I think the House knows that it is a strong convention that we do not reveal the source of legal advice. I am confirming to the House that we believe that we are acting lawfully.

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[Baroness Neville-Jones]

Because I think it is inappropriate to answer it and I cannot take the matter any further. I am very sorry, but I do not think that I can take this any further. The House has made its point and I have given an answer. The House may not regard this answer as satisfactory.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

On the specific point, the noble Baroness said:

“I will seek to do so before Third Reading”.

That was a promise made to the House in the course of the deliberations. Did she seek to do so before today’s proceedings? Has she made any attempt to do so? We know the conventions, which have been broken over the years. One could give a series of examples of the law officers coming to another place to give advice. They can do so, so it is not a convention that cannot be breached at all, but I come back to the simple statement that the noble Baroness made:

“I will seek to do so before Third Reading”.—[Official Report, 17/11/2010; col. 792.]

Did she seek to do so?

Identity Documents Bill

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Wednesday 17th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

As I have just said, we do not believe that we are expropriating anybody of their rights. If this is challenged in the courts we will obviously defend that position.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

May I follow that point? The Minister has made the proposition that there is no right in contract by the cardholders and no expropriation. On the assumption that no advice has been obtained from the law officers on these matters, would it be prudent before the next stage of the Bill to obtain such advice?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, I will confirm the advice that I have received.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

Is the advice from the law officers?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

I am not sure that I can confirm that. I will seek to do so before Third Reading.

We should not exaggerate the significance of all this. Much has been made of the elderly and the very young. We have no reliable demographic information at all on who the purchasers were. We know that 3,000 of the 15,000 were given free to airside workers for a particular purpose.

Policing

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Monday 26th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

The noble Lord makes two points, the first about police authorities and the second about the border policing arrangements. As I said at the outset, I do not think that the Government are claiming that police authorities have been a failure in the sense that they have not been able to exercise functions properly. The point that the Government are making is that the authorities are not visible and, in that sense, properly accountable to local people. Only 7 per cent of people know what the authorities do or have ever heard of them. Some authorities, although not all, perhaps do not rate as more than adequate. We are saying that we can do better. The whole drift of the Government’s policies is to return authority to local people and to make those who have considerable control over the condition of their daily lives more directly accountable to them. One of the ways of doing that is to give both power and authority to somebody whose job is, in the end, owed to the people who put him in that position. There is legitimate room for difference in this area and we will certainly want to consult on the functions of the police authorities and the contributions that they have made over time to see whether some of those aspects can be properly incorporated in the role of the police commissioners. However, we are determined to put police commissioners in place.

The other point that the noble Lord raised was about border policing. He asked whether what I had outlined was the last word. I do not think it is but it is certainly what we think it is sensible to do now. If we manage to get an effective strategy in place—one that unites the functions of the border policing command, which brings together several agencies which are separate at the moment—and, in turn, ensure that that strategy also incorporates the role of the UKBA, which will, however, retain its own functions, we will move a good way down the road of creating a single strategy for border policing. This is the first important thing to do. I am sure that, in the process of doing that, we will find that there are further improvements that we can make.

Turning to SOCA, or the functions performed by SOCA at the moment, I do not know what this part of the agency will eventually be called but those functions will also be closely tied into what we need to do at the border. It is very clear that we must be able to police serious organised crime at level 2. There must be good connections between the constabularies and that part of policing at the national level which is responsible for organised crime. However, we must also be able to operate at the border because of its international dimensions. We need a tight strategy which brings all these elements together.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords—

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I am afraid we are out of time.