Identity Documents Bill

Lord Howarth of Newport Excerpts

Tuesday 21st December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, it is one more noxious constitutional innovation on the part of the coalition that the Government seek to pray in aid financial privilege when they do not want to face up to the consequences of their policies and their legislative actions in this House. Historically, I believe, privilege has not been claimed in relation to matters of expenditure. I am very willing to be corrected by noble Lords who are former Speakers or Deputy Speakers of the House of Commons, but that is my belief. There is hardly a policy, a Bill or a statutory instrument introduced by Governments into Parliament that does not involve expenditure. If it ceases to be in order and permissible for this House seriously to consider the legislation and the policies brought in by the Government on the basis that financial privilege means that it is not appropriate for us to do so, we might as well pack up and go home. Such a situation would make an absolute mockery of our claim to be a revising Chamber or, indeed, a proper debating Chamber.

On that point, I appreciate that the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, always seeks to act in the best interests of the House, as does the noble Lord, Lord McNally, but I would say to them that we are a debating Chamber. As my noble friend Lord Davies said, the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones, is very well able to look after herself. The House respects her and I am sure that she is personally willing to enter into debate.

On the constitutional point, I think that this really is of the greatest importance. It seems both cowardly on the part of the Government and contemptuous of this House that they seek to evade debate and, under a new and bogus claim of financial privilege, seek to prevent us from voting on issues on which we have traditionally been entitled to vote. This is a constitutional innovation of which your Lordships’ House should be aware and upon which it should reflect very carefully indeed.

[Baroness O'Cathain]

My Lords, we have just listened to the most toe-curling self-righteousness from Members of the Opposition, who were, after all, the ones who introduced the ID cards scheme in the first place. They encouraged people to think that it would be a great thing to have an ID card. The fact that 30,000 people or thereabouts bought ID cards does not necessarily mean that those people thought about whether the cards were a good thing; they were encouraged to think so by the previous Government. Now we have the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, whom I have a lot of time for, saying that the Government will have to face up to the consequences of their policies in this House.

I say to noble Lords opposite that they should all face up to the consequences of their policy of bringing in ID legislation in the first place and of encouraging people to go and buy the identity cards. I am not taking sides on this one—

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[Baroness Hamwee]

On all previous occasions when we discussed this matter, I was honest with the House that I had some difficulty with it, but is what was the substantive issue then in fact the issue for today? I have been waiting to hear some comment on the Commons reason for disagreeing with this House’s amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport, addressed the issue of financial privilege and suggested that we should not accept it. However—and this is an entirely personal view—I think that this may well be an issue that goes to heart of the relationship between the two Houses. I have grave doubts as to whether we should tackle that convention on the back of this Bill. This is an important, stand-alone issue, but it is not one that we should seek to overturn in this manner.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. Before she sits down—

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords—

[Earl Attlee]

We should listen to the quick intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Howarth.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

I agree with the noble Baroness that the constitution issue has to be disentangled from the question of what is immediately to be done about the practical issue—the substance of the policy—in the Government’s rejection of the amendment that was made in this House. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, the Lord Speaker, is already engaged in this matter—I am sure that she is—and that she will wish to hold discussions with the Speaker of the House of Commons about the possibility that the doctrine of financial privilege is being extended in a manner that is dangerous to the interests of this House and the fulfilment of its proper responsibilities.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, made a powerful case on whether or not a right of property has been established. He made an equally powerful case on the last occasion that we debated the matter. I asked then whether advice had been sought by the Minister, particularly from the law officers, as that would have been helpful. I understood that we might be told before Third Reading that that advice had been sought. In the Bill there is a declaration that the legislation is compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights. Having heard the powerful arguments of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, is the Minister satisfied that that is the case?

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[Lord Howarth of Newport]

Does the noble Lord agree that this is about expenditure and not about revenue raising? It is a relevant distinction.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My understanding of the conventions is that we have no right to impose expenditure on the Commons and this is an expenditure provision—an expenditure of £30 per card surrendered. However, that is another matter on which we must have absolutely clear advice. It would be folly for us to go ahead today—

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[Baroness Neville-Jones]

I am neither confirming nor denying; I am simply saying that I cannot take this any further.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

Is it the case that the noble Baroness does not know whether advice has been sought from the law officers, or is it that she thinks it is inappropriate to tell the House whether advice has been sought from the law officers?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

I really have nothing more that I can say on this subject. Could I go on to the question of financial—

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[Noble Lords]

No!

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, suggested that we should resolve this matter by a vote. I am not entirely clear whether it is the position of the Minister that the House should not be entitled to vote because the Government are claiming financial privilege.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

Perhaps I may intervene briefly because I—