Identity Documents Bill

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Tuesday 21st December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. Before she sits down—

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords—

[Earl Attlee]

We should listen to the quick intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Howarth.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

I agree with the noble Baroness that the constitution issue has to be disentangled from the question of what is immediately to be done about the practical issue—the substance of the policy—in the Government’s rejection of the amendment that was made in this House. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, the Lord Speaker, is already engaged in this matter—I am sure that she is—and that she will wish to hold discussions with the Speaker of the House of Commons about the possibility that the doctrine of financial privilege is being extended in a manner that is dangerous to the interests of this House and the fulfilment of its proper responsibilities.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, made a powerful case on whether or not a right of property has been established. He made an equally powerful case on the last occasion that we debated the matter. I asked then whether advice had been sought by the Minister, particularly from the law officers, as that would have been helpful. I understood that we might be told before Third Reading that that advice had been sought. In the Bill there is a declaration that the legislation is compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights. Having heard the powerful arguments of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, is the Minister satisfied that that is the case?

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My name was on the amendment and I have listened carefully to what my noble friend the Minister said in opening the debate. Three issues need clarifying before we can safely push this matter forward. The first has been well aired—namely, whether this is compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights. The noble Baroness will tell us very soon whether she has had clear advice from the law officers that it is compatible. I line up with the noble Lord, Lord Pannick: it is difficult to comprehend that this confiscatory measure can be consistent with the protocol. That is the first issue.

The second issue has also been well aired—my noble friend Lady Hamwee has just referred to it—namely, whether we can at this juncture pick a fight with the Commons on its reasons. I listened carefully to what the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, said and I would be the first to leap on to the barricades if I felt that the privileges of this House were being undermined, but we need clear advice on that. Perhaps the learned Clerk may have something to say. I am very disappointed to see him shake his bewigged head. My own sense, for what it is worth, is that the Commons have a case. The amendment is a specifically money amendment; it specifically commits the Exchequer to compensation at the rate of £30 per ID card surrendered.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

I do not think that I am able to enlighten the House any further on the question of taking legal advice. We believe our actions to be lawful.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

I have the record of our debate on the previous occasion in Hansard. I asked, and my noble friend Lord Hunt has referred to this:

“On the assumption that no advice has been obtained from the law officers on these matters, would it be prudent before the next stage of the Bill to obtain such advice?”.

The Minister replied:

“My Lords, I will confirm the advice that I have received”.

I asked:

“Is the advice from the law officers?”,

and the Minister replied:

“I am not sure that I can confirm that. I will seek to do so before Third Reading”—

that is, confirmation that advice had been received from the law officers.

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, I think the House knows that it is a strong convention that we do not reveal the source of legal advice. I am confirming to the House that we believe that we are acting lawfully.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

Because I think it is inappropriate to answer it and I cannot take the matter any further. I am very sorry, but I do not think that I can take this any further. The House has made its point and I have given an answer. The House may not regard this answer as satisfactory.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

On the specific point, the noble Baroness said:

“I will seek to do so before Third Reading”.

That was a promise made to the House in the course of the deliberations. Did she seek to do so before today’s proceedings? Has she made any attempt to do so? We know the conventions, which have been broken over the years. One could give a series of examples of the law officers coming to another place to give advice. They can do so, so it is not a convention that cannot be breached at all, but I come back to the simple statement that the noble Baroness made:

“I will seek to do so before Third Reading”.—[Official Report, 17/11/2010; col. 792.]

Did she seek to do so?