Agriculture Bill

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 7th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 7th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 28th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Shrewsbury (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I too thank the Minister and all his colleagues for their stamina and good temper all the way through this mammoth Committee. I must declare an interest as a member of the NFU. My younger son is a free-range farmer in Lincolnshire, and he is extremely concerned—along with many of his colleagues in the free-range egg-producing world—about foreign imports produced to lesser standards.

The Minister will not be surprised to learn that I was going to speak to Amendments 270 and 271. But, having listened to the debate, I support virtually all the other amendments and I agree entirely with all that was said by the noble Lords, Lord Cameron and Lord Curry, and by my noble friend Lady Hodgson. The Minister will be very aware of the groundswell of opinion throughout the country: well over 1 million people signed the food standards petition, run very well by the NFU, with huge media coverage.

I welcome the establishment of the international Trade and Agriculture Commission, but it must have real teeth and I too would prefer it to be permanent—we must keep it in the future. I do not want it to be giving advice to the Secretary of State of which they can take not a blind bit of notice. It must be there to guide the Secretary of State and Parliament on the standards that we need to keep and enhance in the future. We are a world -class act in the standards we produce in our agricultural industry; we must keep that up and go even further.

In my view, nearly all the arguments have already been stated on numerous occasions, so I will not repeat them. Suffice it to say that my brief words are simply to keep up the pressure and to hold Her Majesty’s Government to their pledges on food standards and to ensure that they do not compromise them in any ongoing or future trade deals.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I join others in thanking the Minister for the superb way he has replied to so many of our debates in this marathon Committee.

I want to speak to Amendment 271, in the name of my noble friend Lord Grantchester, and Amendment 280, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Bruce. Amendment 271 goes to the heart of our anxieties about the future of agriculture and, indeed, the food we eat. Having heard a great deal of the arguments in the course of the Bill’s passage, there is little I can add, so I will be comparatively brief. As my noble friend Lord Grantchester put it so succinctly, this amendment is of vital importance and should be enshrined in law. I welcome an assurance given in the past, but this is so crucial that it should be put on the face of the Bill, as so many other noble Lords have indicated.

I am a member of the EU International Agreements Sub-Committee of this House, and we are examining future trading agreements in detail; it would not be appropriate to comment further at this stage. I am particularly concerned with proposed new subsection (2)(b) in Amendment 271. It would be intolerable if we lowered our standards of agricultural food imports so that we imported at a lower standard than our existing domestic standards in animal health and welfare, food safety and hygiene and liability in general. I would be firmly opposed to any lowering of our standards.

I also support Amendment 280, in the name of the noble Lords, Lord Bruce and Lord Wigley. As I said at Second Reading, many of my family have been, and are, sheep breeders—my family has been doing this for centuries. Some of them may regard me, given my occupation as a lawyer and not a sheep breeder, as the black sheep of the family.

As agriculture was among my responsibilities as Welsh Secretary—indeed, I got responsibility for this transferred to the office—I attended most, if not all, of the meetings of the EU Council of Ministers whenever sheep were discussed. I did so because sheep and livestock farming were so important to Wales.

The price of lamb is heavily influenced by how much we can get from exporting, and the price of exports reflects back on the domestic market. A tariff would put many sheep farmers out of business: the economy and their viability are fragile enough as it is. Many of them have no alternative, hence the need for a report in the terms of the amendment if no agreement is reached, so that this House can give proper consideration to it.

The noble Lord, Lord Bruce, has rightly put the case of a catastrophe if no deal is reached. Specifically, I would like to hear the Minister’s views, and if, and to what extent, he dissents to the case put so admirably by the noble Lord, Lord Bruce.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with those noble Lords who have called this probably the most important group of amendments we have discussed on the Bill; I concur with that. I say to my noble friend Lord Trenchard that, just because we support these amendments, it does not mean that we are anti-American, any more than he is anti-British because he does not like our side of the argument. That does not add to the value of our discussions.

I would like to congratulate the Government on creating the commission today, but I ask the Minister to clarify what it is called. The government press release today refers to the “Trade and Agriculture Commission”, and also to the better-named “Agriculture and Trade Commission”. Which is it? If the Government cannot make up their mind, perhaps the Minister could clarify this for them.

I was pleased to see that the chairman, Tim Smith, said that its report will give evidence-based advice. That is hugely important, but it begs the question that so many noble Lords have raised: what is going to happen to that advice, and what will happen when it has given that advice? The launch of the commission today is just the first stage, which is why I support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Curry of Kirkharle—indeed, my noble friend Lady McIntosh has another amendment—which would prolong the life of the commission. It needs to be there, it needs to report to Parliament and it needs to have its advice acted upon by the Secretary of State.

Agriculture Bill

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansarad) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansarad): House of Lords
Tuesday 7th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I will speak briefly on Amendments 5, 17 and 27, in the name of my noble friend Lord Lucas. I declare my interest as a landowner and land manager, and as Master of the Horse. My concerns centre on the fact that the breeds of semi-wild, native ponies on Dartmoor and Exmoor, and in the New Forest, are, in some cases, on the critically endangered list, yet represent important gene pools which we lose at our peril. These genetic resources could offer a sustainable way to increase food production and/or improve our capacity to adapt to climate change. They could also help us tackle the emergence of new animal or plant diseases by contributing to a breadth of genetic traits. As has been found in areas such as plant science, genes from ancient species can help us tackle 21st-century problems. These ponies do not fit neatly within the definition of wildlife, any more than they do within that of livestock. Amendments 5 and 17 could mean that the potential financial support and protections currently offered by the Bill for semi-wild pony herds is significantly impaired.

For the same reason, like the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, I have significant—perhaps greater—concerns about Amendment 27. Removing the word “native” would destroy the whole reason behind the clause, changing its meaning entirely. The Explanatory Notes point out that the clause is concerned with

“the conservation and maintenance of UK native Genetic Resources relating to livestock or equines.”

As the noble Baroness said, Amendment 27 might also inhibit the UK’s ability to comply with our obligations under Aichi target 13 of the biodiversity convention and sustainable development goal 2.5, which require us to conserve the genetic diversity of the UK’s livestock breeds. If Amendment 27 were upheld, it could lead to the waste of a great deal of public money because it would support investment in any breed, without differentiation. I am afraid that I cannot, therefore, support these amendments.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I will say a few words in support of Amendment 78. I come from a long line of sheep farmers and I have no financial interest to declare, other than that my brothers, nephews and nieces continue the long family tradition. As I said at Second Reading, I am fully aware that the Bill applies to England and that it is for the devolved Governments to phrase their own financial provision, as they should, agriculture having been devolved. However, there is, allowing for divergence, an emphasis on a single UK market. For some years, the agreement reached with the Welsh Government will make that provision. My noble friend Lord Adonis coupled Wales with Scotland. He failed to understand the different approaches of Wales and Scotland in the agreements they have reached. The Welsh Government will, I suspect—hope—take fully on board what happens in England in the way agricultural support is drafted, and draft legislation suitable for the needs of Wales.

I will make three points. First, hill farmers operate on very narrow margins and survive, to some extent, on the present financial assistance. Secondly, there is only limited opportunity for alternative uses of the hills and marginal lands. Thirdly, there are possibilities for encouraging other financial uses of premises, particularly for tourism. It would be a great loss to the country, and to my nation in particular, if any substantial part of the hill farming industry went out of existence. The loss would not be confined to those engaged in the industry; it would affect those who enjoy the countryside and who visit the area from time to time.

Bearing in mind Gray’s elegy, an empty countryside would be very much less attractive to everyone. Hence, we need a policy for hill and marginal land. Do we believe in maintaining them, and to what extent? What financial support should we contemplate? This is crucial, so that such farmers can plan for the future. It would be an enormous loss to the whole country if we allowed hill farmers and marginal farmers to wither on the vine. I am therefore anxious to hear the Government spell out in detail their plans, so that those farmers know where they stand, what they can look forward to and what other financial support they can hope to receive.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD) [V]]

My Lords, in the new farming environment there will be many challenges, which undoubtedly will affect some, if not all, of the four nations of the United Kingdom. In these circumstances, co-operation is not just desirable but necessary; that is why I support Amendment 66. Looking around us, we see the absence of co-operation between all four nations in relation to the virus. This should be an example to us of the importance of co-operation when it comes to agriculture. It is better to have an existing framework for Westminster, Cardiff, Edinburgh and Belfast than to deal with issues on the basis of ad hoc responses.

I have a few comments to add to the remarks of my noble friend Lord Bruce of Bennachie on Amendment 78. Support for what used to be the less favoured areas constitutes a set of public goods. First, it allows farming to continue in a viable business fashion. Secondly, it avoids the risk of land abandonment. Thirdly, it helps to maintain continued agricultural use. Of course, all three help to combat depopulation. But it goes further than that. Agriculture support helps to preserve communities and services such as education, and to maintain social infrastructure in areas where population is thinner than it is in the towns. Amendments 66 and 78 warrant support.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Morris of Aberavon [V]]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 106, which I support in spirit. It is good to see my noble friend Lord Rooker back, and I look forward to sitting next to him when the House resumes in its proper role.

I will be very brief and will ask the Minister a question. We know that under the CAP system, as I understand it, there is no restriction as regards the receivers of EU money. I believe that this is untenable in the future. The amendment sets out new limitations to confine financing assistance to those actively engaged in farming or land management. I support the spirit, as I said, but the amendment may need redrafting. There is no other justification for spending taxpayers’ money. I ask the Minister specifically: will there be any restrictions or limitations on who payments will be made to in future under the Bill?

[The Duke of Montrose (Con) [V]]

My Lords, forgive me if I turn off the video, because my signal is very poor. I declare my interests as in the register; my background is in livestock production in a hill area. As a Scottish farmer, I am particularly interested in the outcome of the devolution framework negotiation.

I was interested to hear my noble friend Lord Marlesford saying that we must emphasise the context in which we are. Behind it all, we have to bear in mind that as a country at present we should go out and buy exotic food or cheap food as and where we can find it, but we need to remember the warnings in the Beddington report that before too long these other parts of the world will need most of what they produce to feed themselves.

The Bill as it stands already opens up 10 headings of activities or causes for which the Government propose to offer financial assistance. Many noble Lords have tried to define a more focused approach to the payments. The noble Earl, Lord Devon, told us of his rationale for focusing only on agriculture and how he envisages rural support to be directed. I was interested to hear that he had drawn his definition of land from an EU definition.

In Amendment 64 the noble Earl envisages limiting the land eligible for assistance by the type of activity it supports, but those of your Lordships who have been involved in existing support schemes will be familiar with the difficulties that were dreamed up when the rules were made in Brussels to start to try to make clear what was agricultural land, starting off with a mapping exercise. Very many in my part of the world had to spend a great deal of time identifying what were rocky outcrops, patches of impenetrable scrub, bracken or bog on a field-by-field basis. I seem to remember that Northern Ireland faced a huge fine for claiming on areas with these conditions. I am glad to see that in Amendment 91 in the previous group, the noble Earl added a role for managing wetlands as part of cultural or natural heritage.

Following on from my noble friend Lord Randall’s concern, many noble Lords have drawn attention to what the EU now describes as “areas of natural constraint”. There would be a problem if we went solely down the line of production. There is a difficulty in dealing with the more awkward parts of what, in the Countryside and Rights of Way Act, was described as

“mountain, moor, heath or down”.

Some of these areas support agricultural production but, since the advent of the current basic payment scheme, some areas have no livestock on them at all. They are perhaps given over to conservation or peatland restoration. Are these to be excluded from any development assistance as we go forward?

As I said, many amendments are trying to direct more defined targets for funding. As we go forward, it will be interesting to see whether any wording will be found that will be acceptable to my noble friend the Minister.

Agriculture Bill

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 10th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab) [V]]

[Inaudible]—family farm in three counties of Wales, and in Suffolk.

My Lords, this Bill is a sea change from its ill-fated predecessor. That was heavily criticised by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee of your Lordships’ House, which expressed its dismay at the major transfer of powers from the EU to Ministers of the Crown, bypassing Parliament and the devolved legislatures in Wales and Northern Ireland. Not for the first time, Whitehall sought to claw back powers that I had won for the Welsh Office as Secretary of State for Wales and that formed one of the building blocks for the Welsh Assembly.

The briefing from Defra, for which I am grateful, makes it clear that leaving the CAP will enable the devolved Administrations to design policies that will meet their own needs. Wales and Northern Ireland have asked the Government to extend certain powers in the Bill to them. I ask the Minister to summarise what they are. Provided they do not undermine the principle of devolution—that it is the Welsh Government who decide what is best for Welsh farmers, the Welsh countryside and Welsh consumers—I would welcome them.

I support the emphasis placed by my noble friend Lord Hain and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, on the need to involve the Welsh Government in any international negotiations which concern Welsh produce. I hope to expand on that at a later stage.

There is value within the United Kingdom single market for standards and assistance to be on the same lines if so desired.

My next point is on the maintenance of the high standards that we now have for food production and the protection of consumers in this country. The noble Earl, Lord Shrewsbury, raised animal health. We have our occasional epidemics and my family have been too close to foot and mouth in the past. Another problem has been BSE. Tuberculosis in cattle has not been properly resolved. We have gone backwards in this area. I do not want a lowering of our standards to accommodate a general trade deal, which the Government seem determined to get. The issue is not solely chlorinated chicken or hormone-fed beef; British farmers, wherever they are, are proud of the standards that we have in this country. We do not want to see the door opened to lower-cost, poorly produced food imports.

It was said in the Commons that imports produced to lower standards than ours pose a real threat to UK agriculture. Without sufficient safeguards, we could see British farmers significantly undermined, while turning a blind eye to environmental degradation and poor environmental standards abroad. Agricultural goods should be imported into the UK only if the standards to which they were produced are as high as or higher than the UK standards. I welcome the assurances on this point.

The small farmers of Wales, Cumbria and elsewhere operate on fairly thin margins. I welcome the emphasis on the environment for all our people, but we must remember that the countryside can be enjoyed by everyone only if there are people living there. I trust that in the disbursement of funds to agriculture, this will be borne in mind.

Farm Subsidies

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Wednesday 30th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, as I have said, we will be testing and trialling the environmental land management scheme that is to come in in 2024. We will also bring forward a countryside stewardship agreement between now and 2024. We believe that in the future, farmers will be well placed through their participation in the new ELM scheme. However, the noble Baroness is right to say that there is a balance to be struck; we require our excellent food to be grown for home consumption and for export, and we need to do that within the prism of enhancing the environment.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, will the totality of the net payments to the whole of the agricultural industry be maintained during the transition period and afterwards?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, that is clearly for the Treasury and whoever is in the new Government, so at this stage I cannot say that to the noble and learned Lord. It will be for whichever Government are in office to decide on their spending commitments. What I am absolutely clear on is that this Government continue to support farmers in the way I have described and, if re-elected, that is the system which we will bring forward.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Thursday 17th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, I wish to raise three points on the post-Brexit arrangements for agricultural support, particularly in relation to Wales.

More than 60 years ago I was a young official for the newly born Farmers Union of Wales. Most of family—my brothers and their descendants—are engaged in livestock breeding in Wales, sheep in particular. There has never been greater uncertainty in the Welsh hills, traditionally the breeding ground of Welsh lamb. What advice will the Government give to them? When I was at the criminal Bar, I was occasionally asked in the Court of Appeal, “What is your best point, Mr Morris?” My best and most important point is: what should hill sheep farmers dependent on export to the continent do this year, so far as breeding is concerned? This is the period—from about 1 November on, depending on the altitude of their farms—when they put their rams to their ewes. This is the obvious initial step for the lambs they hope to be ready for the markets, particularly the continental markets, in late spring and early summer. They do not know what markets there will be—or what tariffs, as my noble friend mentioned from the Front Bench. I hope they will not be punitive; if they are, it will destroy the industry. I would therefore like to know what assurance the Government can give.

My second point concerns the last agriculture Bill, which was stalled in the Commons for many months—pending, I presume, the outcome of Brexit. I look forward to a new Bill, as promised in the Queen’s Speech. On more than one occasion, the last in March this year, I raised the Delegated Powers Committee of this House’s severe criticism as that Bill sought to bypass the devolved legislatures. I pointed out that Whitehall is blind to the fact that devolved Administrations are now part of our constitution. Will Westminster never learn that, given the situation we find ourselves in—which I welcome and have worked for—it must consult the devolved Administrations? We had the same experience with the initial offering of Clause 11 of a recent Bill concerning the retention of powers that were being transferred from Brussels to the United Kingdom, which led to prolonged discussion between the Government of Wales and Westminster before a reasonably acceptable solution was arrived at. When the next agriculture Bill is presented, can we have firm assurances, first, that there will be no bypassing of the Welsh Assembly; secondly, that farmers in Wales will not lose out in any new support arrangements; and thirdly, that there will be agreed arrangements in which the Welsh Government will have confidence?

My third point is that the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced on 4 September this year his proposals for the next spending round, including £1.2 billion for Scotland and more than £600 million for Wales—based on the existing Barnett formula, of course, and on top of the existing spending per head in Scotland and Wales. The Government went on to say, interestingly:

“The Spending Round also delivers on the government’s commitment to provide £160 million to farmers and land managers in Scotland in relation to historic allocations of Common Agricultural Policy … funding”.


Given that the Welsh allocation usually follows the Scottish, based on Barnett, I want a specific answer: what is the equivalent commitment to Wales, not mentioned in the statement, of that £160 million found for Scotland for farmers and land managers? The Scottish figure refers directly, I repeat, to,

“farmers and land managers in Scotland”.

Is there a different figure for Wales? Is there no figure for Wales? I would like to know.

Brexit: Agriculture

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Monday 14th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, my right honourable friend made a number of very important observations about the future of farming at the Oxford Farming Conference, not only in the long term but in the short term because of Brexit. In his words, he agrees that the deal before the other place is not perfect, but let us not put perfection in the way of the good. That is why he actively supports the deal.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, despite the government statement on the level of farm support to 2020—and 2022—this has been a period of unparalleled anxiety for the members of the farmers, union that I served as a young man, as its legal adviser in Wales. This House’s Delegated Powers Committee delivered a hammer blow in October 2017, criticising the Agriculture Bill for transferring European powers to Ministers, bypassing the devolved Administrations. Specifically, when do the Government intend to carry out their undertaking to respond within the agreed period to the committee’s report?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, that is an interesting observation from the noble and learned Lord, because I saw Lesley Griffiths from the Welsh Government in passing only this morning. There is a very important continuing dialogue with all the devolved Administrations—agriculture is devolved, of course—and that is why, when the Agriculture Bill comes to your Lordships’ House, it will have elements which relate to Wales, and indeed Northern Ireland, alone. I will take away what he said, because my understanding is that there is very close collaboration, which is essential, between the UK Government and all devolved Administrations.

Farming Regulation Task Force

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Wednesday 11th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The noble Baroness is quite right to remind us of our responsibility in undertaking this project. I said in my opening response that we need to work with thoroughness to ensure that situations such as she describes do not happen again.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords, what advice will the Minister give to the thousands of dairy producers who are leaving the industry? When I was a young man working for the farmers there were 6,000 milk producers in Carmarthenshire alone. Now there are probably fewer than 3,000 in the whole of Wales. He talks about strengthening the industry. How will the industry be strengthened, as opposed to the buyers?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The fundamental problem is currently that the productive capacity of the dairy herd has greatly increased. Until the industry is capable of expanding its market beyond the liquid milk market, which in itself is fairly inelastic, to use an economic term, we will not actually solve this problem. I hope that the answers that I have given today have given the House an indication of my view that the solution lies in creating new markets for processed milk and the infrastructure to provide that.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Lords Chamber

I was singing the “Hallelujah” chorus last Friday morning after the yes vote in the Welsh referendum. I hope that people will keep voting yes in referenda, because it is a good habit to maintain and develop. The result of the vote means that the 20 devolved areas do not now need to come to Westminster for any approval. Is this not another reason to move with great caution in making any change to the status of S4C? I know that noble Lords will agree with me and, if it comes to a vote, will vote with me to say that the future for S4C is in Wales. I urge the Minister to spend the time between Committee and Report on formal, meaningful discussions with the Welsh Assembly Government, so that on Report we will have the assurance regarding the future of S4C that the amendment seeks to ensure. It is my pleasure—mae’n bleser gen i—to move Amendment 83.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords, I support the amendment moved so ably by the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno. I hope that the House will forgive me if I elaborate a little on the matters that he raised. I never thought when I became a Member of your Lordships’ House that I would take part in two debates on matters crucial to the nation of Wales and its nationality within weeks of each other. The result of the debate on the appropriate parliamentary representation for Wales was disappointing. Wales has every reason to believe that it was let down by the Benches opposite. I hope that when this Bill completes its journey through the House—and I take the hint of the noble Lord, Lord Roberts—Wales will not again feel let down and we shall see the withdrawal at some stage of S4C from the Bill.

The setting up of the fourth channel to meet the needs of the Welsh language is the jewel in the crown of the Conservative Party in Wales. After a ghastly and monstrous U-turn and universal national protests, including that of Gwynfor Evans, the Tory Government were persuaded to provide for Wales’s needs. I was glad that the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, made the point a few weeks ago that the visit of the three wise men—Lord Cledwyn, the Archbishop of Wales and Sir Goronwy Daniel—came at a crucial moment. The resulting Act of Parliament, setting up an independent, properly financed body, S4C, is now to be thrown on one side. The Government protest that they wish to maintain the independence of S4C. If the BBC is to be its main financier, it will be the ultimate accounting officer and all S4C’s expenditure will have the stamp of BBC accountability. If I am wrong, perhaps the accounting provisions can be explained.

Having paid tribute to the Tory Government’s decision, perhaps I can reveal that for six years as Welsh Secretary I battled for the Labour Government to meet their commitments, despite the difficulties of the IMF crisis. Ultimately, on 6 March 1979, weeks before the election, Lord Merlyn-Rees was able to move the Second Reading of the Independent Broadcasting Bill permitting the setting up of transmitters generally, and particularly for Wales, so that broadcasting could commence by the autumn of 1982. This was the vital building brick that the new Government seized upon and operated.

All this work, of which we can all be proud, is now in real jeopardy because the Government, without any consultation, decided to offer this piece of saving to the Treasury. There was no consultation with the Welsh Assembly, and the plea of all the party leaders in the Welsh Assembly for an independent review, referred to by the noble Lord, was ignored.

S4C has not been without its faults. I happen to listen to some of its programmes most evenings, even in London. I have complained as far back as 2002 that the mix of programmes on any particular evening, the overdependence on cheap football matches in remote parts of Europe and the overreliance on some performers, good though they may be, are not enough. S4C has failed to realise that Wales is no longer an agricultural country. It was no surprise to me to discover that the viewing figures had dropped substantially, although they do not include people such as me in London, or those in Liverpool or elsewhere across the border. I do not think that the board of S4C has served Wales well in recent years. There are individual talents on the board but they obviously failed to work with the chief executive and agreed to an organisational structure much criticised in Sir Jon Shortridge’s report on governance.

In 50 years in politics, I have had only one dispute with a broadcaster, which was regarding a major programme celebrating the 10th anniversary of the setting up of the Welsh Assembly. I fear that the whole programme had to be withdrawn. The conduct of S4C was pathetic. However, there is much to be done within S4C and I hope that, with the vision of a new chairman of standing in Wales and a new chief executive, we can see better things.

None of this exonerates the Government from the process employed in riding roughshod, and in the face of an Act of Parliament, by demanding and getting back £20 million from S4C, denying long-term financing to S4C in the future and transferring most of its responsibilities for finance to the BBC.

I was grateful to Mr Vaizey for seeing me twice last year, whatever his relations with the Welsh Assembly. He listened very carefully to what I had to say and seemed seized of the importance of the points that I had made. Reading his evidence to the Welsh Affairs Select Committee, I was a little disappointed. The Government’s conduct in refusing a meeting with the Welsh Assembly and ignoring a plea of all the party leaders in the Assembly for an independent review is beyond the pale. The Welsh Assembly has the statutory duty under Matter 20 of Schedule 5 to its own Act of,

“promoting or facilitating the use of the Welsh language”.

What of the future? How is the relationship to work? There is only a short-term guarantee of finance. How is the independence of S4C, as promised by the Government, to be fulfilled? The accounts that I get, though disputed, of a lack of input at present by S4C into the 10 hours a week of broadcasting provided by the BBC do not augur well.

The first requirement in the new relationship between the BBC and S4C is for firm guidelines as to who does what. Perhaps an independent person—someone such as Sir Jon Shortridge, who is much respected—should be asked to draw up the guidelines on the relationship between the two parties; otherwise, a much larger BBC will overwhelm the tiddler that is S4C.

Secondly, there should be proper and adequate financing over a longer period of time than is envisaged at present. After all, careers are at stake and individuals are entitled to know, with as much certainty as possible, what sort of S4C there will be and whether there will be jobs for them.

Thirdly, money for S4C must come direct from the licence fee and not through the BBC. The licence fee is not the property of the BBC; it is our money. The BBC in the past has strenuously fought against top-slicing and it might well do so again. Should it succeed, we are back to the accounting officer problems that I posed earlier. In any event, a question has been raised as to the legality of the BBC paying money to a body that is not a subsidiary company of the BBC. Can the Minister assure us that the arrangements proposed have been legally approved?

Lastly, in the absence of an effective Act of Parliament continuing to guarantee S4C’s existence, I would seek to ensure that part of the BBC’s new charter, coming about in a few years’ time, should set out the terms and duties of whatever body operates Welsh-language television. The alternative is a separate charter for S4C. After all, it had a special Act of Parliament promising and guaranteeing it revenues each year, but all that has been brushed aside—so much for the rule of law. It would have been wiser and more prudent to have had a proper and more independent review first. If there was a case for change, it should have been evidence-based.

I close by saying that it is a matter of regret to me that the Welsh Assembly, when economic conditions were so much better, did not propose that Welsh-language TV should become part of its responsibilities. I fear that there were two reasons why it did not do so. First, it feared taking over financial responsibility, although at that stage, when we were in better economic climes, that could have been negotiated. Secondly, I think that S4C preferred to be answerable to a distant Whitehall, with very few Welsh speakers overseeing it, than to neighbouring Cardiff, which would see exactly what was going on. This may be part of the reason why so much has gone wrong in recent years. It was a missed opportunity. I advocated this as long ago as 2002, when I was installed as chancellor of the University of Glamorgan. Welsh-language broadcasting is intrinsically essential to the well-being of the nation of Wales. The time is ripe—if one understands what devolution is—for Welsh TV broadcasting to be devolved.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Rawlings]

These discussions have been ongoing throughout. The noble Lord also asked whether there was prior consultation with the Welsh Assembly Government. Given the scale and pace of the spending review and the licence fee settlement discussions, it was not practical to have in-depth discussions with all the interested parties ahead of the announcement. The timeframe reflected the Government's desire to put the UK finances in order.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

If the sole or main problem for the inclusion of S4C in the schedule is the problem of the RPI formula, will the noble Baroness go back to consider by Report whether S4C should be withdrawn from the schedule and the Government table in its place a particular amendment dealing with the problem of the RPI formula?