Intellectual Property (Copyright and Related Rights) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Lord McNicol of West Kilbride Excerpts

Monday 4th March 2019 Grand Committee

I hope I have covered all the points, but perhaps the Minister can give some indication as to what he thinks the real cost is. I do not know whether the overarching impact assessment given by the Government gets into that kind of detail—I doubt it very much. No doubt the Minister has all the facts at his disposal.

[Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his introduction. We broadly accept the position of the department. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, have touched on, a number of issues are staring at us, both in the impact assessment and in the SI itself. I will not go through all these, because most of the main points have been picked up. However, the Minister touched on the issue of no deal and the problems associated with it. Obviously, if we were to rule out a no-deal scenario, many of the issues would be dealt with and we would not be having these conversations.

Following on from the final point of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, he will find that the answers are not within the impact assessment, especially on cost and finances. Page 2 of the first two of the three impact assessments, under the heading “Full Economic Assessment”, looks at both the costs and the benefits. In both, the first line states:

“It has not been possible to monetise the costs due to a lack of available data”.


Unfortunately, I do not think there will be detailed answers on the costs, whether to the consumers or to the industry, because of the lack of available data.

That feeds into the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee’s points, which, because the Minister obviously knew they were coming, I am addressing head-on. I do not think there has been a clear enough answer to them. The committee is of the view that it would have been helpful to provide more information on the potential impact of EU exit to UK businesses and consumers in these areas. That is an indictment not of the department, but of the work that has gone into finding out the impact of this.

[Lord Clement-Jones]

Does the noble Lord not agree that, if consultation had been carried out with the right people, we might have discovered what those costs are?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McNicol of West Kilbride]

Well, my next point is on lack of consultation. The Minister touched on this because, again, he obviously saw this coming down the line. There was no detail in the statement about the stakeholders. In fact, there was a comment—unfortunately I have not written it down—on how consultation has been ongoing since the decision was taken on Brexit. That may well the case, but the specifics of the issues around this area are really important. It would have been nice, and still would be, to get a little more detail on who the consulted stakeholders are, when they were consulted and what that consultation looked like.

I will pick up on another of the Minister’s comments. To paraphrase, he said that the general public will know about this because we have this information about the loss of reciprocity on our website. Until picking up this SI and coming here to respond on behalf of the Opposition, I was not aware—which was obviously my fault—that reciprocity would be lost following no deal or the UK’s going into a third-country situation. The idea that it is widely known that individuals will lose access to online content—whether it be Netflix, iTunes or other aspects of it—is just not correct. If we are going to end up in this situation, some information from the department to the wider British public, whether through the businesses or the organisations, would be a good thing. It would make the public aware of what was coming down the line if we ended up with no deal.

I will not pick up on all the other issues; they were covered very well by the noble Baroness and the noble Lord. I am sure the Minister will pick up on the points about the Marrakesh treaty, so I will leave it there.

[Lord Henley]

I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. I will start off with consultation. At the time we were developing these regulations, we were in the early stage of negotiations. Revealing our continuity of approach through a public consultation might have risked our negotiating position, so it was not possible to conduct that full formal public consultation of the sort one would normally like. Within those constraints, the Government engaged with stakeholders in the creative and digital industries as far as possible: in August last year, officials in the department held a whole series of industry round tables to discuss no-deal planning with publishers, collective management organisations, broadcasters, technology firms, museums, archives and educational establishments. I could undoubtedly write to noble Lords and give them greater detail—for example, on the alliance for IP and the British Copyright Council, both of which are representative bodies that cover a broad range of copyright needs. I believe we engaged as far as was right and proper.

However, as the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and my noble friend Lady McIntosh, stressed, there is an impact from no deal. We did an impact assessment on these regulations and the impact is minimal, but the wider impact of leaving without a deal will be greater. We recognise that leaving the EU without a deal will lead to disruption in the field of intellectual property for the UK’s creative industries. However, in passing this instrument, we will provide continuity wherever possible and, where changes to existing arrangements are unavoidable, we will ensure that clear and appropriate legislation is in place. I believe that that will minimise, as far as possible, disruption to the creative and digital industries, whose work obviously depends on an effective intellectual property framework.

The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, asked what the Government were doing to support UK broadcasters facing the loss of the AVMSD and the copyright country-of-origin principle. I assure him that it is still the Government’s intention to secure an agreement with the EU on our future relationship, and we set that out in last year’s White Paper. We want any deal to involve the best possible arrangements for the broadcasting sector. If we leave without a deal, broadcasters might face disruption due to the EU copyright country-of-origin principle ceasing to apply to the UK. Therefore, again, we sought to give broadcasters and others as much information as possible about the implications of no deal by publishing technical notices and detailed guidance on what that would mean for copyright. However, I make it clear that we will continue to seek a deal.

I also make it clear to the noble Lord and to my noble friend Lady McIntosh that we will continue to seek reciprocity. The political declaration provides a good basis on which to negotiate our future relationship with the EU on these matters. For copyright, this includes a commitment from both parties to maintain high levels of protection for database rights and artists’ resale rights. The specifics of our future relationship with the EU will obviously be the subject of those negotiations. However, as set out in the political declaration, our aim will be to make sure that the agreement continues to stimulate innovation, creativity and economic activity.

Further on reciprocity, the EU portability regulation works through reciprocal application of the cross-border rules. The regulations that we are dealing with today will not cover UK/EU travel in the event of no deal, and the UK obviously cannot replicate the effect of existing arrangements on a unilateral basis. However, keeping the portability regulation in UK law after exit would not have the same effect as an agreement on mutual cross-border portability. Instead, it would place unreciprocated and inappropriate obligations on service providers operating in the UK. Whether we can continue to agree reciprocal portability with the EU will have to be a matter for detailed negotiations. At this stage, I cannot go any further than that.

My noble friend also asked how the IPO came to this decision without an assessment of the loss of service in the UK. UK consumers of online content services might see changes in their services when they visit the EU after exit. This could range from being offered different content to having their access restricted. Ultimately, this will depend on the licences that their service providers have in place and the terms of service. That is a direct result of the UK being considered a third country under the portability regulation. Again, I stress that it is not something that we can deal with unilaterally.

My noble friend also asked about the effect on UK broadcasters. Without a deal, member states may cease to apply the country-of-origin principle to broadcasts from the UK, which will mean that UK broadcasters that transmit across the EU may need to renegotiate their licences to acquire rightholder permissions for every member state in which their broadcast is received. The issue arrives out of EU legislation; again, it is not something that we can address unilaterally.

I turn to the question which all three noble Lords asked about the ratification of the Marrakesh treaty. We are committed to making sure that people with disabilities continue to benefit from improved access to copyright-protected works. We are on track to ensure that we are able to ratify the Marrakesh treaty in our own right as soon as possible after exit. Our ratification will then need to be accepted by the World Intellectual Property Organization before we are once again considered a member of the treaty. While there is likely to be a delay between exit and the acceptance of our ratification in a no-deal scenario, we are working hard to ensure that this will be as short as possible.

There were a few more questions. The noble Lord, Lord McNicol, asked for any further information from the department explaining no-deal issues. I go back to the October 2018 guidance, which sets out in pretty clear terms what no deal means for copyright. I have a little more detail about who we consulted, but I do not think it adds anything to what I said before. I assure noble Lords that this included representatives and trade bodies from commercial broadcasters, collective management organisations, libraries and archives, tech firms, publishers, authors and photographers. I do not think I need to write with any further points. I think that deals with most, if not all, of the points raised, but I see that the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, would like to come in.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am afraid I cannot give any figure of that sort to the noble Lord and I am not sure it will be possible to do so. If I can do better, I will certainly write to him,

[Lord McNicol of West Kilbride]

On the consultation, the Minister helpfully outlined a number of organisations. Were the SI and the issues around intellectual property that we are discussing today discussed as part of that round table?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I stress—I think I made this clear—that I used the words “round table” in the plural. There were a number of round tables and I am sure matters of the sort that are coming up today were discussed. If they were not, I will certainly write to the noble Lord, but I cannot believe that they were not discussed.

[Lord McNicol of West Kilbride]

It would be helpful to know with which organisations intellectual property was discussed.

[Lord Henley]

I commit to writing to both noble Lords on that issue. I beg to move.

Storage of Carbon Dioxide (Amendment and Power to Modify) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Lord McNicol of West Kilbride Excerpts

Wednesday 13th February 2019 Grand Committee

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for moving this statutory instrument. I have just one question. He said that there has been consultation with only the Oil and Gas Authority, which presumably is the regulator in this instance. Page 5 of the Explanatory Memorandum says that it will apply to,

“activities that are undertaken by small businesses”.

Was a conscious decision taken not to consult widely with the industry, and, if so, what was the reason for that? Obviously the regulator will have a view, but those who work in the industry might have an alternative view.

[Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)]

My Lords, I am standing in for my noble friend Lord Grantchester, who cannot be with us this afternoon. This is another of the no-deal Brexit SIs, which would be completely unnecessary if the Government were to do the right thing: agree with Labour and others and rule out the possibility of a no-deal Brexit. If the Government were to do that, this House and the other place could spend more time dealing with far more important and relevant issues, and save the Civil Service, the ministerial Opposition and industry time and money—a simple solution.

This SI has already been through the other place, where it was passed in 10 or 11 minutes, so we are giving it a little more scrutiny in this House than in the other place. I note Dr Whitehead’s comments and those made by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. On carbon capture itself, Dr Whitehead’s said that,

“it would be rather nice if we had some carbon capture and storage to put into those regulations”.—[Official Report, Commons, 28/1/19; col. 5.]

I have a couple of questions to add to the others asked by noble Lords. As the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, said, the Explanatory Memorandum details that BEIS engaged with the Oil and Gas Authority and the devolved Administrations. Could the Minister enlighten us as to the response from the authority and the Administrations?

The Government have stated that no specific monitoring arrangements are needed for this. Can the Minister detail whether the Government envisage any situation where the instrument will need to be looked at again? On the Minister’s second point, on changes to technical or scientific specifications, will there be any parliamentary scrutiny or oversight, or do those changes sit in the hands of the department and the Minister?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am again grateful to all noble Lords for their contributions. On the last point made by the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, I am not aware that there will be any further parliamentary oversight of this order once it has gone through. Of course, as I said in my opening remarks, we are clear that this deals with a no-deal situation, but it might possibly also be necessary in the event of a deal. We have to see what the deal is, and then see what precisely is needed. The important thing at this stage is to provide a degree of certainty to the industry to make sure that it knows what is happening; that is true of a large number of the regulations coming before us.

The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, seems to think that the Government’s action was not sufficiently vigorous, that we have not done enough over the years and that nothing will happen until 2030—that we could leave this order until 2029. I suspect that neither I nor the noble Lord will be here by that stage—the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, looks so young that I am sure he will still be here debating orders of this sort, which he will greatly enjoy. The important thing, as I said in response to the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, is to get certainty.

I believe that we have been ambitious. My right honourable friends Claire Perry and the Secretary of State are ambitious, and, moving wider than CCUS, we have acted well on all other matters relating to renewables. As I said in a recent debate, this applies both to the coalition Government, and therefore to the Lib Dems, and to the previous Labour Government, who passed the Energy Act with all-party support—all sides of the political spectrum have been acting well on this. We have an ambitious action plan designed to enable the first CCUS facility in the UK, with commissioning from the mid-2020s.

I also assure the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, that the CCUS Council has been established. It is co-chaired by James Smith; it held a meeting at the end of last year and will meet again in March. The noble Lord can be assured of action on that.

I can also offer assurance about consultation on the specific point raised by the noble Lord, Lord McNicol. As I said, both the OGA and the devolved Administrations were consulted; the latter, as is appropriate, gave their consent, and the OGA was also content.

My noble friend Lady McIntosh was concerned about consultation. She will not be surprised that we rather expect questions on consultation on all of these regulations, because that seems to be what has been happening. We have not formally consulted, as noble Lords will be aware, on this particular statutory instrument, as the impact on businesses and government will be minimal. This is because the changes are technical and enable the regulatory regime to continue functioning largely as it does now. We did not think it was necessary to consult formally on this, but, as I said, we consulted those particular bodies and published a technical notice in October setting out the climate change requirements in a no-deal scenario.

The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, also asked about the Ospar Convention. I apologise to him because I am unsighted on that matter, but I will write to him. With that, I commend the regulations.

Ecodesign for Energy-Related Products and Energy Information (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Lord McNicol of West Kilbride Excerpts

Wednesday 13th February 2019 Grand Committee

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, perhaps I will be more positive about these regulations and make the Minister feel better. I very much welcome the tone of the Explanatory Memorandum and its emphasis on the benefits of energy efficiency, which is clearly one of the least costly and most effective ways to reduce our carbon footprint. In fact, energy efficiency is one of the reasons why although energy prices have gone up, energy bills for households have gone down. This time, the irony is on not the Government but the broader British media because the famous Brussels-regulations-related vacuum cleaner efficiency scandal foisted on British citizens by the tabloids will remain. I welcome those product standards coming across.

My question are quite practical. I think that the Minister went through this, but who will police or register this matter and what will the additional cost of that be? Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, who will hold the register? Is the IT for that complete? How will what is on the European Union register get on to the UK register? That covers a series of intellectual property rights issues. We came across this with the REACH chemicals database: you cannot just copy this information across. How can we have a robust system that works in this regard? Without that, this scheme cannot work.

I understand the Minister’s point about continuing labels for a while but, more importantly, will it be legal to sell all the electric appliances covered by this SI in our home market from the point of our departure? I want to understand whether the preparation in those technical areas is right and things will work. Legislation is great but if it cannot work, even passing these regulations is not a lot of use.

[Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)]

My Lords, again, I am standing in for my noble friend Lord Grantchester so I apologise to my team in the Box if I do not get the language quite right. I spent time going through the regulations. The SI is quite a tome. I feel as if it covers more than just one issue and a number of SIs have been merged together.

I start with a point about no deal because large swathes of the SI cover that scenario. I know that it also covers what will be needed if there is a deal, but the parts of the SI covering a no-deal scenario would not be needed if the Government agreed with us and ruled out a no-deal Brexit. That would save so much effort, energy, time and money.

Looking at the specifics, like the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, I have a number of questions flowing from the draft SI. I want to work through those issues, some of which are technical and some of which are a bit wider than that.

The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee declared the draft SI of interest to the House. I am sure that it will be scrutinised further after today. One of the big themes that came through—and one of my concerns—is about the powers that would be moved to the Secretary of State. There are a number of issues around that. The Minister said that these powers are about protecting and preserving the current standards, possibly increasing and building on them, but I do not see that in the language of the draft SI. Part of it says that the Secretary of State will,

“implement the strategy set out on page 44 of the Clean Growth Strategy which is to ‘keep step with equivalent standards [after exit]’”—

but then, “wherever possible and appropriate”. My reading of those words leads me to believe that the Secretary of State may not decide that keeping a level playing field or keeping the standards at a specific level is possible or appropriate, so those standards could dip. A bit of clarification from the Minister would be very helpful.

As has been touched on, the instrument also creates a stand-alone UK regime for third-party product verification, to be established in further detail in later SIs. Can the Minister assure us that these SIs will deal with that under the “made affirmative” procedure rather than the negative one? The text of the instrument is far longer than most, running to more than 80 pages; the five quite distinct schedules and areas contained in it could and should have been separated into separate SIs.

The Government have also chosen not to produce an impact assessment since, as they say, there will be “no imminent change”. Can the Minister clarify what this means? Are we talking about a week, a month or a year? As has been mentioned, there are financial, operational, organisational and oversight issues involved in setting up new bodies.

On page 7, paragraph (7) of proposed new Regulation 2A states:

“Where the Secretary of State removes the reference to a standard from publication, that standard is no longer a designated standard”.


Does this mean that the standard no longer exists in that area? If so, does that raise any implications or concerns?

The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, asked how other bodies would be constituted and what consideration was given to them. I look forward to the Minister’s response to that. On page 11, paragraph (4)(a) of proposed new Regulation 22 says that the Secretary of State must,

“consider the life cycle of the product and all its significant environmental aspects, including its energy efficiency, and the feasibility of their improvement”,

and paragraph (4)(f) says that they must,

“consult on the draft implementing measure”.

I seek clarification from the Minister on which bodies and organisations would be consulted on the draft measures. This would be helpful for the future.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Henley]

I was not thinking of those who had reached the maturity of 40; I was thinking of the somewhat younger ones who, despite their extraordinarily green credentials, take a slightly less purist approach to turning off lights and other procedure.

I shall deal quickly with some of the questions. On the impact assessment, I assure the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, that the instrument’s impact was assessed at below the annual cost of £5 million, which was why a full impact assessment was not required, but a de minimis impact analysis was undertaken to reach this conclusion and, in doing so, the department followed the guidance, so we are happy about that.

On consultation, I assure both noble Lords that we worked very closely with the industry and other organisations, meeting them and keeping them up-to-date via email. Last summer, officials met all the appropriate trade bodies to consult them. Views were sought on the proposal to keep the design of the energy label, remove obligations in relation to the EU product database and retain the legislative functions carried out by the Commission for the Secretary of State. In the main, as far as I know, the trade bodies supported all those proposals and stressed the importance of not imposing new costs on businesses and the UK being able to legislate after exit.

I shall deal with some of the more detailed points. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, asked about the policing of this. Ecodesign enforcement and control activities are carried out by the Office for Product Safety and Standards. Energy labelling enforcement and control activities are carried out by that office and local authorities’ trading standards departments in Great Britain and by the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland. The regulations will not result in any change in that policy.

The noble Lord also asked who holds the products register and whether there is one for the UK. There is no UK database, but there is an EU-wide database, which went live on 1 January this year. There have been delays on the public section of that database, but it remains broadly on track and, after exit, we will review whether to introduce a UK database. Again, I can give the assurance that we will consult on that. He also asked whether all appliances under the SI will be covered from the point of exit, and I can assure him that the changes come into force from exit day and there will be no gaps.

The noble Lord, Lord McNicol, was concerned that there could be a reduction in standards, but I can assure him that we continue to support all these policy measures, which cut energy bills and increase energy security. As stated in the Clean Growth Strategy, we will keep step with equivalent standards, but intend to go further where, as I think I said in my opening remarks, we believe that is in the interests of the UK.

I have dealt with the noble Lord’s concerns about consultation, but I just correct myself on the affirmative nature of SIs. Only the SIs that are not identical to EU standards will be affirmative. If they are not identical to EU standards, they will be negative. I think I have it the right way round.

[Lord McNicol of West Kilbride]

It is the other way around.

[Lord Henley]

It is the other way around, but the noble Lord has understood me anyway. He also wanted clarification on “designated standards” in the Explanatory Memorandum. The instrument renames the EU’s harmonised standards—the testing standards that can be used for the verification of products’ compliance with EU requirements—as “designated standards”. Designated standards will give rise to a presumption of conformity with UK legal requirements in the same way that the EU’s harmonised standards do in relation to EU requirements. To ensure continuity and not drive up testing costs, the testing standards in the UK and the EU will remain the same. That is what the UK industry wants. The reference to designated standards will again be published on GOV.UK. I believe that deals with the points that have been raised.

Nissan in Sunderland

Lord McNicol of West Kilbride Excerpts

Tuesday 5th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement made in the other place and must declare an interest as having bought a Qashqai for the very reason that it was made in the UK.

Nissan’s decision that the new X-Trail will no longer be built in Sunderland but instead in Japan is a bitter blow to the people of Sunderland and to the wider north-east. Close to 7,000 people are employed at the plant in Sunderland, with many thousands more along the wider supply chain and support services. Although the X-Trail decision does not impact directly on the existing workforce, it sets a worrying trend for the future.

What is interesting in the Secretary of State’s Statement is that the Government, as far as we are aware, are trying to pursue an industrial strategy that looks to develop a co-operative partnership approach with such an important sector—an initiative that we support and something that this side of the House has been calling for for many years.

Of course, Brexit was not the only factor in Nissan’s decision, and it would be dishonest to suggest that the issue of diesel did not play a part in Nissan’s thinking. However—and this is important—Nissan for the first time, through its European chairman, Gianluca de Ficchy, has brought to the fore the uncertainty of Brexit as a key factor. He said on Sunday:

“The continued uncertainty around the UK’s future relationship with the EU is not helping companies like ours to plan for the future”.


That is a damning statement. The continued uncertainty is not helping.

What is more worrying is that the Government could help by ruling out the worst aspect of that uncertainty: that of a no-deal Brexit. The Government have the ability, the authority and the duty to do all they can to protect the interests of our businesses and economy.

Can the noble Lord confirm that the Government will actively engage with the trade unions and automotive manufacturers to protect what is now left? The truth is that the news of Nissan’s departure is not isolated and, in the coming months, more jobs and investment could well be lost in industries elsewhere across the UK. Only last week the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders announced that car production is down to its lowest level in five years: in total it has now slumped by 9%; and in the past year alone new investment has halved. What considerations are being given through the industrial strategy to ensure that other parts of the industry, such as Bridgend or Ellesmere Port, do not suffer in the same way?

Our automobile industry and wider manufacturing sector is in desperate need of assurances from the Government. They must finally rule out a no-deal Brexit, which in itself is the single most important decision they could take to remove that uncertainty.

Finally, why has no discernible progress been made on trade agreement negotiations, despite pledges otherwise? Where are we with the commitment that there will be no tariffs on British-made vehicles entering the EU?

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I too thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. Just over a year ago Secretary of State Greg Clark launched the automotive sector deal. Things were a bit different then: in a confident, upbeat foreword, he said that,

“the government is investing in a new industry-led programme to raise the competitiveness of UK suppliers to match the best in Europe”.

Today’s Statement underlines how much things have changed. How can the Government claim to be raising competitiveness when uncertainty and delay make it impossible for businesses to plan and invest? Nissan’s comments underline its struggle to plan ahead. Manufacturers do not even know what tariffs they will face at the end of next month, never mind the supply chain friction that will confront them. They are having to plan shutdowns in April to take stock of the situation. That is hardly raising competitiveness, and it is a key reason why confidence in the automotive industry is plummeting and, as the noble Lord on my right said, investment is halving.

One of the foundations of the Government’s industrial strategy was to create the best place to grow a business. It is clear that the abject confusion over Brexit and the surrounding discussions is weakening communities and the strategy. As the Minister said, we had confirmation yesterday that Nissan has decided not to build the X-Trail in the UK. However the Minister and the Secretary of State seek to dress this up, that is not a vote of confidence in the Government’s strategy. As the Secretary of State acknowledged, it injects uncertainty into an industry that is very important for the north-east—uncertainty over 7,000 direct-employment jobs and approximately 35,000 in the supply chain.

In the Statement, the Secretary of State was clear that Nissan had located in the north-east,

“having been persuaded by Mrs Thatcher that the combination of British engineering excellence and tariff-free access to the European Union made Britain an ideal location”.

So, when the chill winds blew in the year before last, the Minister acted fast and secretly to seek to insulate Nissan. In 2016, in order to reassure the company, the Government made a deal, which included public investment of around £60 million, as we heard, and was sealed in a letter that the Government moved heaven and earth not to publish. They cited commercial sensitivity as the reason—until this week, when publishing suddenly suited the Government. I have a number of questions about that letter.

First, what was commercially sensitive before that is not so now, particularly when the Secretary of State goes out of his way to explain that the funding surrounds the Juke and Qashqai ranges but not the X-Trail? That range will continue, so any commercial sensitivity should surely continue, too. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, did the Government notify the EU competition authorities about their deal with Nissan? If not, why not? I note that in 2001 some £40 million of support for the production of the Nissan Micra was cleared through the EU. What was different about this support?

The Minister stated that the Government’s fourth commitment is to the,

“strong common ground that exists between the UK and other EU member states”.

I suspect that we would question that. He also said that Her Majesty’s Government would,

“pursue a deal that could ensure free trade unencumbered by tariffs or other impediments”.

There is no sign that the Prime Minister’s red lines will allow this to happen—and clearly Nissan no longer believes the Government either. The reduced sector investment tells the same story.

The prime phrase in all this is “damaging uncertainty”. Faith is falling, even in the Minister’s own department. His colleagues in the other place sound increasingly worried about what is going on and whether the right of his party will drive the country over a cliff. Mr Harrington has called no deal a “complete disaster”, while Mr Clark warned that a no-deal Brexit would be “ruinous” to the economy. Can the Minister tell us the adjective he would use to describe it?

Employment: Terminal Illness

Lord McNicol of West Kilbride Excerpts

Monday 17th December 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, for his opening remarks and declare an interest as a member and former member of staff of the GMB trade union. I echo the noble Lord’s call for action from the Government. My colleagues and I on the Opposition Benches support the proposals outlined and agree that the protections afforded to terminally ill workers need to be strengthened. I take this opportunity to praise the work of Jacci Woodcock—it is lovely to see her here today—the TUC and my union, the GMB, which launched the Dying to Work campaign and have raised significant awareness of this important issue.

However, this is not just a trade union issue. As was touched on earlier, this campaign has considerable support from employers across both the public and private sectors. In addition to the support from the business community, the campaign has been endorsed by third-sector organisations that work to support people with terminal illnesses—as we heard earlier from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay—such as Breast Cancer Care, Second Hope, Marie Curie, the National Council for Palliative Care and Hospice UK.

Businesses, trade unions and wider civic society are united in a desire to see the loopholes closed so that vulnerable workers are not living under the constant threat of dismissal during their end-of-life period. This could be done quickly and effectively using secondary legislation. Providing more security to terminally ill workers and their families should not divide us; instead, I am certain this can bring together Members from across the House. This is not an issue of left or right but of right and wrong.

From a new apprentice all the way through to a CEO, a terminal diagnosis can strike anyone at any time. No one trying to cope with a terminal illness should find themselves forced out of work and losing the death-in-service payments that can provide financial security for the family they leave behind.

My fellow Peers will be all too aware of the difficulties surrounding a terminal diagnosis following the powerful and moving speech earlier this year by my friend and colleague the late Baroness Jowell, which received universal acclaim and support from across the House. Tessa commented in her speech that terminally ill people,

“need to know that they have a community around them, supporting and caring, being practical and kind”.

Our society’s values, which demand such care and kindness, do not stop at the door of our workplace, and we should expect and demand the same practical and kind support from every employer of a terminally ill worker. Tessa concluded her speech by saying:

“In the end, what gives a life meaning is not only how it is lived, but how it draws to a close”.—[Official Report, 25/1/18; col. 1170.]


For some people, that will mean maintaining the positive stimulation, normality and dignity of being in work and not being forced out of work by an unscrupulous employer. I believe the proposals made by the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, will give people the choice about how they spend the final few weeks or months of their lives. Some will decide to leave work, take ill health retirement, bring forward their pension or take any other action that may be in their interest. This proposal does not force people to stay in work but instead gives working people the ability to select the right option for themselves and their families based on their own personal and financial circumstances.

In the Prime Minister’s first speech outside Downing Street, she made a number of pledges to provide support for working people. Sadly, however, we have seen precious few examples of this rhetoric in action. One such pledge made by the Prime Minister to working people was to,

“do everything we can to give you more control over your lives”.

Here is a cost-free opportunity, with support from across this House and the other place, to provide a very vulnerable group of people with control over the last chapter of their lives. This proposal also has overwhelming public support; a recent Survation poll showed that over 79% of people supported these changes.

Clearly, this is not only the right thing to do but it makes good practical sense, and I challenge the Government to grasp this golden opportunity and demonstrate that the Prime Minister meant what she said when she took office. However, this is not just about politics but about people, so I will share a story which appeared in the Nottingham Post on this very day last year, to demonstrate why we must act on this issue:

“Karen Land, 39, had just finished training for her dream job of becoming a firefighter when she was told she had three months to live”.


Karen, who had previously been a stay-at-home mum, a parent of five, had just finished firefighter training when she was diagnosed. She said:

“‘It’s all happened so quickly. Nine weeks ago I was fit and healthy and training for my dream job and now I have three months left. It is almost surreal, I think I am still in shock … This job meant everything to me. It was so hard to get on the training course, and I put so much work into it.… Tracy Crump, the service’s head of people and organisational development, said: ‘Our people are our Service, and their health and wellbeing is massively important to us, so I’m really pleased that we have been able to sign this charter to set in stone our commitment to ensuring that any employee with a terminal illness has much needed security, stability and peace of mind’”.


I commend Nottinghamshire Fire and Rescue for signing the TUC Dying to Work voluntary charter and making this important commitment to Ms Land and their other employees.

Work was clearly important to Karen, and it is great that her employer has supported her and her family in this way. I hope that many other employers go on to do the same. However, we know that too often, people in Karen’s position can find that they are suddenly forced through stressful HR procedures with the constant threat of losing their job, putting their family’s future financial security at risk. Living with a terminal diagnosis is challenging enough without this additional stress and strain.

Before I conclude, I thank my union, the GMB, for its support, and in particular Richard Oliver.

For all these reasons, I support the proposals as set out and hope that my fellow Peers from across the House can continue to work together on this issue. The Government must act to ensure that every terminally ill worker has the protection and support they need during the final few weeks and months of their lives.

Buildings: Energy Performance

Lord McNicol of West Kilbride Excerpts

Tuesday 11th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I think the owners of most new buildings go to a great deal of trouble to make sure that they are properly insulated. They have to be insulated up to a certain level. I will write to my noble friend in greater detail. Whether they want to go further and whether that should be mandatory is another question.

[Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)]

I am sure the Minister will agree that improving the energy efficiency of buildings plays a crucial role in tackling fuel poverty and helping to bring down bills for the most vulnerable. According to the Committee on Climate Change, the Government are “off-track” to meet their fourth and fifth carbon budgets. Can the Minister set out to the House what steps, if any, his Government are taking to get back on track?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, my understanding is that we have met our first carbon budget. We are on track to meet our second and third. I will take advice on where we are on the fourth, and write to the noble Lord.

Timeshare, Holiday Products, Resale and Exchange Contracts (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Lord McNicol of West Kilbride Excerpts

Wednesday 21st November 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, this appears to be so uncontroversial that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has left the room. However, I have a couple of questions. The Minister has done a great job in describing the limitations as well as the extent of this move. It is of course the limitations that concern me. One of the main ways in which timeshares, particularly non-British timeshares, are sold is in situ. In other words, people are sold to by people who literally come up to them in the street. It will not be clear to those individuals, who have been used to the process of being sold to and, in some cases, buying such products that the legal basis on which they are buying property will change. No longer will the contract be unified across the state. They will have bought a property in a foreign legal environment.

I make the same point as I made on the previous SI. That foreign legal environment will gradually diverge. It will diverge slowly or quickly, but it will change. It is clear that if that is how it goes, the Government and the industry have to work very hard to explain the legal complications that can arise from buying a property from a EU 27-based seller in an EU 27 country. It is not clear to me what is the legal redress if you buy a property from a UK-based seller in an EU 27 country. My suspicion is that it probably depends. That is another point on which serious information will be required to avoid people being mis-sold on that basis.

The Minister did not to any great extent address resale. Where does this leave the UK owner of an EU timeshare bought from an EU seller who comes to resell? It does not appear to me that this SI addresses this issue at all, but it is of great concern. Say the Minister had, in a fit of excitement, bought a timeshare on a golf course in the Algarve several years ago. He is shaking his head, but perhaps he should have done that—he would be relaxed. If he had bought that timeshare from a Portuguese seller, where does this leave him when it comes to the contract and process of resale? Where is the court of redress? Where is the process?

The SI is good as far as it goes, but it does not address the key consumer issues. Once again, it is consumers who will suffer. Whether we crash out or have a deal, the divergence will potentially create a significant downside for consumers. I would like to hear the Minister’s view on that.

[Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)]

My Lords, this is one of the more straightforward regulations. We can see that by the fact that we have lost my noble friend Lord Foulkes from our discussion. As was touched on, the main aim is to change references to “the EEA” to “the UK”, and similar changes in language from “official language of an EEA state” to “English”. At this stage, I cannot find much of substance to disagree with. However, I am sure my shadow BEIS colleagues may have some points to raise when this is discussed in the other place. Like my noble friend Lord Foulkes before me, I have just a couple of questions for the Minister.

First, much of the instrument deals only with replacing European references with domestic alternatives. However, the regulations will also ensure that contracts governed by the law of an EEA state will be treated in the same way as contracts governed by the law of non-EEA third countries. Did the Government consider any other option for EEA contracts?

Secondly, prior to the publication of this instrument, the Government chose not to carry out a consultation. This seems fair, considering the volume of secondary legislation and the relatively minor impact that this will have. However, it could be expected that the Government will have held informal conversations with those affected by the regulations. Will the Minister explain whether any such discussions, with industry or others, have taken place?

Thirdly, the Explanatory Memorandum claims that there is no impact on UK businesses. However, as a result of this instrument, businesses dealing with timeshares will surely have to acquaint themselves with the new regulations. Does the Minister not agree that, however minor, there will be some necessary adjustments for business to make?

Finally, on a similar note, does the Minister agree, like me, with the comments of his colleague the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions? This morning, she said that the UK will not be leaving on a no-deal Brexit as there is no majority in the other place for that to pass.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I remind the noble Lord that we had a referendum a couple of years ago and we agreed that we were leaving the EU. That was the manifesto that both the party I represent and the noble Lord’s party went to the country on in 2017. We are leaving the EU. It depends on what terms. These regulations are about dealing with the question: what will happen if there is no deal? We hope there will be a deal but if there is no deal, we want to make sure that the proper protections are there.

The noble Lord, Lord Fox, asked a number of questions which went slightly wider than the regulations in front of us. The important thing to say to anyone who is thinking of buying a timeshare, whether in this country or another, is that whatever they do, they must take all the proper legal advice. I have no plans, when I walk round a golf course on the Algarve—which I have never done and have no intention of doing—to buy a timeshare, but there are people who want to buy timeshares and they serve a purpose. Whatever they do, the important thing is to make sure that they are getting the right advice, either in this country, if they are buying it here, or in another country. I think we would all agree on that point. Where people have had problems, it is very often because they have bought in the manner that the noble Lord, Lord Fox, seemed to be suggesting—someone comes up to them while they are on holiday and makes this suggestion.

Now that we are leaving, what protection will UK consumers have when buying timeshares in Portugal? Obviously, it will depend on where the consumer bought the timeshare. UK consumers who buy timeshares under UK law will be covered by the protections in the existing timeshare regime. If they are buying timeshares in Portugal from Portuguese traders, they will generally be subject to Portuguese law and the protections that that member state extends to non-EEA nationals. Consumers will be encouraged to understand the specific conditions of the contract and to take all appropriate advice.

The noble Lord also asked: how do we prevent people being misled? Obviously, I share his concern for vulnerable consumers who are unfairly targeted by manipulative and misleading sales tactics in many industries, but particularly here. I believe that the current timeshare regime, reviewed and updated by the 2010 regulations, provides adequate protections for timeshare consumers. The regulations require that clear and comprehensive information is provided to the consumer before any contract is agreed; that information on termination must also form part of the contract; that timeshare buyers also have the option to change their mind within two weeks of signing a contract, during which no money can be taken; and so on.

The noble Lord, Lord McNicol, asked whether it was possible that there would be further changes. He will be aware that the European Union (Withdrawal) Act does not give us the powers to create any legislation or substantially change any retained EU legislation. The changes that this instrument would bring into effect are made in exercise of those powers, to remedy deficiencies in retained law and not to change the effect of retained law. But we know that many people have concerns about some of the protections. I can give an assurance to the noble Lord that my right honourable friend and others will always keep these matters under review if we feel that there are not the appropriate protections. This will always be a concern. The Government would act if necessary.

Discontinuing Seasonal Changes of Time (EUC Report)

Lord McNicol of West Kilbride Excerpts

Wednesday 24th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Whitty for his introduction to the EU Committee’s report on discontinuing seasonal changes of time and for introducing this Motion on the same subject. Tonight is my first time at the Dispatch Box.

EU legislation on summer time arrangements was first introduced in 1980 with the objective of unifying existing national summer time practices and schedules, thereby ensuring a harmonised approach to the time switch within the single market. On this side, we recognise that some benefits could be obtained from the removal of member states’ seasonal time changes, although, in reading the European Commission’s directive, I am far from convinced by how great those benefits would be.

More importantly, we believe that member states should always be central to determining whether seasonal time changes remain appropriate in their own territories. As my noble friend Lord Whitty’s committee has demonstrated, ending seasonal changes of time does not comply with the principle of subsidiarity. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, touched on this, citing the earlier change in alignment of when the clocks were changed. I suggest that the changes proposed are fundamentally different and would have a larger effect on more parts of the United Kingdom, so the subsidiarity issue is relevant.

Within the UK, we must always consider the strength of feeling across each of the home nations, despite the issue being reserved to Westminster for Scotland and Wales. Furthermore, we must be conscious that there are no equivalent reservations or expectations for Northern Ireland. Are we really considering, as touched on earlier, the possibility of Northern Ireland being out of alignment with the rest of the United Kingdom and/or the Republic of Ireland for six months of the year? Further consultation is clearly needed across the board on whether discontinuing seasonal changes of time is the right route for the United Kingdom.

One further concern lies in the fact that this proposed EU directive appears not to have considered all the possible scenarios and options. Does the Minister agree that other possible changes should be explored before any final decision is made?

In a similar vein, the report talks about various studies on how the use of summer time arrangements works, yet none of those reports mentioned in the proposal says that we should abandon the current system of seasonal changes of time. In looking at the detail of the proposed changes, in particular considering the interplay between longitude, latitude and time zones on determining daylight hours, we are very concerned to note that a move to a permanent winter time or a permanent summer time would have differing ramifications for different parts of the UK.

Having to choose between a permanent summer time or a permanent winter time has both benefits and drawbacks depending on whether we are talking about the south-west of England or the north-east of Scotland, Orkney or Shetland. If the UK chooses a permanent summer time, it would mean lighter evenings; however, in Scotland, where there are shorter winter days, children and adults would have to travel to school and to work in the dark. Having longer, lighter mornings has been supported by many morning workers, including postal workers, the construction industry and farmers. Can the Minister point me to any recent research about the various options which may be considered? Do the Government agree that any changes under consideration should be preceded by a consultation with each nation and region of the United Kingdom?

The Government’s Explanatory Memorandum highlights that public consultation and an assessment would be required on how a switch of time zones could affect all sectors of the UK economy. Will the Minister give the House an assurance today that the Government will give consideration to the strength of feeling of those workers and industries which would be most impacted by any change?

As my noble friend Lord Rooker touched on earlier, RoSPA has taken the argument a stage further and asked whether we could adopt a “Single/Double British Summertime”, or SDST. SDST would mean that we adopt GMT plus one during the winter months and GMT plus two over the summer period. This, RoSPA argues, would allow lighter evenings all year round, and would result in fewer people being killed and injured in road accidents. Unfortunately, we currently see an increase in the number of pedestrian deaths due to darker evenings in winter months. Do the Government agree that more time is needed for the UK to decide what the best option is?

Finally, do the Government also accept the powerful arguments made by our EU Committee that it would be better if the EU gave more weight to the principle of subsidiarity and ensured that member states were able to decide seasonal time changes within their own territories?

Business Contract Terms (Assignment of Receivables) Regulations 2018

Lord McNicol of West Kilbride Excerpts

Wednesday 17th October 2018 Grand Committee

[Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)]

My Lords, these regulations address a problem that I did not know existed. The colloquial expression for “assignment of receivables” is factoring, and that is what I know it as. Why would companies build these terms into contracts, with the exceptions permitting, unless there was a question mark about their payment? I will be interested to hear the Minister’s comments about that. It seems unjustified. I understand the importance of being able to get hold of money for your contract early on, but if companies paid in a more timely way, factoring would perhaps not be necessary. Those are just a couple of comments, but I wholeheartedly welcome the regulations.

Will the Minister explain paragraph 10.13 in the Explanatory Memorandum? It is headed “Additional Exclusion”. It states that contracting parties need to be certain that they are dealing with each other rather than an assignee. Does the Minister understand that to mean subcontracting? If he does not, are there other examples of what could be meant by that? Other than that question, I welcome this legislation.

[Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Minister for the introduction to this SI. This is my sixth week in your Lordships’ House and it is a pleasure to be speaking on my first SI. If I make any procedural or other errors, please forgive me. I am still learning and have a long way to go.

Invoice financing as set out in paragraph 7 of the Explanatory Memorandum is one way of securing working capital. More simply, it is the ability to borrow money against unpaid invoices to improve cash flow. We on this side agree that invoice financing has its place, but it is not always the solution to the problem. When laying these regulations, Her Majesty’s Government have missed a great opportunity to sort out the wider issue, which the Minister touched on, around payment culture. The recent consultation on prompt payment received some very good responses on the wider issue of late payment which simply must be addressed soon. In excess of £2 billion a year is owed to SMEs in late payments—payments past the agreed invoice payment date. Does the Minister agree that this is a far larger and more easily solvable problem?

I was general secretary of the Labour Party before coming here. The Labour Party led on this by example and had 30-day payment terms. More widely, there is the absurdity of having a voluntary prompt payment code. Many large firms are signatories but there is no enforcement, so in real terms the code is worthless, especially as many companies have 60-day terms.

What if a company breaches those terms? Let us not forget that Carillion was a signatory but then went on and changed its payment terms to 120 days. Does the Minister agree with me that a sensible term for the code, even in its voluntary state, would be 30 days? Why has the prompt payment code not been made compulsory? Why has consideration not even been given to making it so? These reforms would help to solve the problem that IF looks to solve.

The correspondence with the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee touched on the question of implementation dates. I note the Government’s response supporting the status quo, but do they still believe that there is any point in having common commencement dates? The CCDs of 1 October and 6 April each year are introduced to help businesses to plan for new regulations and increase awareness of the introduction of new or changed requirements, yet these regulations are to be introduced 21 days after they are passed. As the correspondence with the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee reveals, it is not as if there has been a great rush to get these regulations in. As we can see from the Explanatory Memorandum, the first discussion paper was published in 2013, so I am sure that another few months’ delay to ensure better regulation would not have hurt.

I congratulate the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy team on their detailed and helpful work on the impact assessment and the Explanatory Memorandum. Having said that, I think the committee has done a brilliant job of sorting out the documents before us and holding the Government to account for a certain amount of confusion. It might have taken time, but I believe it would have been better if the Government had issued new documentation following the consultation. As the Minister said, substantial amendments to the regulations were made, so was the impact assessment carried out after they were made or before, in 2013?

I turn to the substance of the regulation. Could the Minister satisfy me that no problems or unintended consequences of these regulations may arise in the accounting treatment following the introduction of these regulations? I am thinking particularly of when income from invoice financing is to be recognised in the accounts of a trading company when that is not done through factoring. If the Minister is unable to give me a direct answer today, I am more than happy for him to write to me.

Paragraph 7.4 of the Explanatory Memorandum states that this regulation will help diversify finance markets and encourage competition. Could the Minister expand a little on how exactly that will happen? The bit that confuses me is the exclusion of large companies from IF. Could the Minister explain why they have been excluded, especially as paragraph 10.7 of the Explanatory Memorandum, as he touched on earlier, outlines the problem with large commercial contracts, not large commercial companies or businesses per se? Paragraph 10.8 then outlines the solution of banning large companies from IF. This appears to be a completely different answer to a completely different question. Maybe the Minister could explain what the persuasive arguments by the legal profession were and how these led the Government to exclude large companies from IF.

In the Explanatory Memorandum, under the heading “Territorial Extent”, the paragraph following Paragraph 10.14 is labelled 10.1. I think that this is just a typographical mistake but it should be picked up on. The serious point here is that the regulations appear to interact with powers devolved to the Scottish Parliament. Is that right? If so, did the Government consider seeking a legislative consent Motion? If not, why not?

As I said at the start, the Opposition will not oppose these regulations on invoice financing, but it is a shame that the Government missed the opportunity to bring forward legislation to improve invoice payment practices within these regulations.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I offer my welcome to the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, on his first appearance at the Dispatch Box. I look forward to many more in the future. He will know that it was during the opening of the batting, as it were, of my honourable friend Kelly Tolhurst that she brought these regulations before another place some weeks ago. She was probably grateful for the noble Lord’s opposite number in another place for giving her a relatively easy run on them.

I think that I have broad agreement from both the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, and the noble Baroness, Lady Burt, that the regulations are doing the right thing, but obviously they have wider questions. Some of them are impossible to answer at this stage. For example, I think it was the noble Lord who asked whether I could give a guarantee that there would be no unintended consequences as a result of this. That goes slightly wide in that one never knows whether there will be unintended consequences until the unintended consequence hits one in the face. However, we certainly will, as with all matters, keep these under review as they develop.

I will start dealing with some of the more detailed questions. The noble Baroness, Lady Burt, asked a very sensible question as to why some companies have these contract terms. I think that I made it clear in my opening remarks that we were not absolutely sure. I think I quote myself in saying that there is some debate as to why these restrictive terms persist in ordinary purchase contracts. Some suppliers suggest that this is a deliberate attempt. I have to say that the evidence is mixed. Either way, these regulations will resolve this issue and those terms will be removed, but, to come back to the point that the noble Lord made about unintended consequences, and as the noble Baroness said with her detailed questions about I think paragraph 10.13, we consulted very carefully on these regulations and we want to make sure that we get them right.

On paragraph 10.13, there are situations where companies need long-term, trusting relationships. That is why, in that case, assignment can be undesirable. We do not know precisely and we will keep them under review, but we hope that these regulations will get to the heart of the matter.

However, that takes us on to the broader question that both noble Lords raised, particularly the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, about the wider problem of prompt payment. That is why I quoted the figures earlier. We have seen some improvement. The number of overdue debts outstanding has halved in the past five years, which is pretty good; it is down from 30 billion to 14 billion. I want to make it clear to noble Lords—this goes way beyond the regulations—that we are not complacent about this matter. Further action is under way to bring that number down further. We do not believe that companies having to make use of invoice financing is a substitute for prompt payment by those who owe them money.

--- Later in debate ---

As I said, invoice financing is not the sole answer, although it is very helpful for small and growing businesses. We hope that the instrument will allow them to seek the increased value of invoices outstanding, ensuring that they have the appropriate funds. It may be less suitable for long-term investment or asset purchases, but that is for the companies to decide. These regulations make that small change and deal with that small problem identified by the noble Baroness, Lady Burt, and the Government. We do not quite know why it is there. We think that we can deal with it through the regulations but because of potential problems—I spoke earlier about the attractiveness of English law and so on—the issue was one worth consulting on and one that I hope we have got right. As I said, we will keep it under review and note the points made by noble Lords, whom I thank for their contributions.

[Lord McNicol of West Kilbride]

There was a specific issue with larger companies. I am still struggling to understand why they were excluded. What was the reasoning behind that? The impact assessment was carried out with the inclusion of large companies. If we look at the bottom of its front page, the assessment was signed on 4 July 2018 although it took place earlier, in 2015. That is three and a half years out of date. Is that normal? As I said, substantial changes were made; I would appreciate more information on that.

[Lord Henley]

Obviously with the larger companies there is less of the problem of what one might refer to as the imbalance of power between the two parties. For that reason, we thought it was easier for them to negotiate the appropriate terms. Whether we have got that precisely right in terms of the size, I do not know—again, these matters were consulted on—but I hope we have. There was the question of whether, where there is no imbalance, they might feel the need to keep these terms on those occasions. If I wish to add a little more to that, I will consider very carefully what I have said and write to the noble Lord.