Ian Brady

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Thursday 31st October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

In this particular case, the entire process took almost three years and culminated in an eight-day tribunal hearing. This is a legal process and the trust had no option other than to comply; neither did the Legal Aid Agency.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)]

My Lords, I was present at the trial of Brady at Chester Assizes in 1966, where he was represented by my noble friend the late Lord Hooson. He did not plead insanity at his trial. Indeed, he served some 19 years in an ordinary prison. It was a decision of the prison authorities to send him to Ashworth hospital, where he tried to commit suicide by starving himself to death. He was force-fed, and the purpose of his application to be transferred back to an ordinary prison was so that he could starve himself to death without being force-fed. Since the cost in Ashworth was well over £250,000 a year, was not the money well spent even if the decision went the other way?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, it is very difficult to find much sympathy for Mr Brady, although it has to be said that he has been judged to be medically ill. Our law says that in those cases the mental health review tribunal is part of the process of our legal system and that a patient is entitled to a tribunal hearing, as set out in Part V of the Mental Health Act 1983. We cannot have one law for those we find worthy and another law for those we do not like. In some ways, it is the fact that Mr Brady has the protection of the law that should give reassurance to the rest of us.

Whole-life Sentences

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Wednesday 17th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, first, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for setting out the chronology very accurately. The right to review was there until 2003. Whether its removal was by an oversight, I do not know, but removed it was. All that I can say about the court’s judgment I said in my Answer—we are analysing it and will provide a considered response in due course.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

Are the Government aware that the suggestion made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, was part of the judgment of the British member of the court, Judge Mahoney, who unreservedly subscribed to the conclusions and reasoning of that judgment? Ought not the Government give extra weight to the views of the British judge in that regard?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I am not sure whether in an international court one would take cognisance of one judge over another—I am not sure of the protocol of such courts. I do know that it was a considered judgment that merits careful study by the Government, which is exactly what we are doing.

Prisoners: Indeterminate Sentences

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Tuesday 23rd April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, the noble and learned Lord’s figure on the release of IPP prisoners is roughly correct; I do not think it is until Thursday that we release the full figures, but his estimate is not far out. That compares with 300 releases in 2011, 97 in 2010 and 53 in 2009. I hope he will acknowledge that the abolition of IPPs in LASPO and the greater flexibility that we are now employing in trying to manage the IPP sentences are going in the right direction. I acknowledge that it is a slow process. I will take back to my right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor the noble and learned Lord’s point about the power that was given in the LASPO Act, but even if that power were exercised the Parole Board would have to take public safety into account in making its decisions.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, at its conference in 2012 the Prison Governors Association passed a motion overwhelmingly welcoming the ending of what it described as the “iniquitous” IPP system. It also said that unless some action is taken either to resource appropriate interventions to reduce perceived risk or to review the Parole Board criteria on what constitutes risk to the public, existing prisoners will face disproportionately long sentences. What action have the Government taken?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I think the key word is “risk”. The fact that these prisoners were given IPP sentences indicates that it must have been in the mind of the judge imposing the sentence that they posed a significant risk to society that had to be dealt with before they could be considered for release. That was the intention behind IPPs and that must remain uppermost in our minds when deciding the future of these prisoners. However, we are bringing in accredited courses, which may help to make the point that they are available for these prisoners. Other interventions such as work, education and employment may also provide evidence of reduced risk. NOMS is investing in interventions that have the most beneficial impact in reducing risk, and priority for those programmes is given to IPP prisoners.

Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (Exceptions) (Amendment) (England and Wales) Order 2012

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Wednesday 18th July 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, I only wish to raise one point, on guidance notes for police commissioner candidates. I want an assurance from the Minister that those guidance notes will be translated properly into Welsh. He may, or may not, know that there was considerable embarrassment following the elections to the Welsh Assembly last May when there was no proper translation into Welsh. As a result of that, one candidate did not divulge that he held a post that, between the previous election and that election, had disqualified a candidate from standing in those elections. He, being Welsh speaking, had only read the Welsh-language version and, accordingly, there was no problem. But another candidate, who did not speak Welsh, could only have read the English guidance notes, and he was disqualified by the Welsh Assembly although he was successful in the election.

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I am assured that the Electoral Commission is responsible for publishing guidance, but I say to my noble friend that I will check with the commission on whether it plans such a Welsh-language edition. I cannot believe that it will not, given the normal practice in such elections, but I will make inquiries and write to my noble friend with, I hope, suitable assurances.

Crime and Courts Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Monday 2nd July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

Yes, my Lords, it is part of the general process of reform at both the tribunal level and in other parts of the judiciary. So there will be employment judges from now on.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

Perhaps I may help my noble friend by illustrating the kind of particular business there could be. In the old days it was not so much a tap on the shoulder as a ring-round by the Lord Chancellor’s Department to find someone who could go and do particular cases on very short notice. I recall being asked to go to Leeds with the inducement that I could stay in the judges’ lodgings—not much of an inducement, I may say—to try three large medical negligence cases. They said, “Don’t worry, they’ll all settle”. In fact, they all stood up. That is the sort of instance when counsel on both sides are all ready to go ahead on a fixed date but there is no High Court judge to take it. Everybody assumes that the cases will settle but they do not.

[Lord McNally]

Not for the first time when I find myself out on the thin ice, my noble friend supplies a plank for me to walk back to dry land. I thank him for that intervention.

Crime and Courts Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Wednesday 27th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

Try me. I think that the issues that have been raised are such that it would be better to have another run at them on Report.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, before the Committee sat I informed the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, that I was fairly relaxed and neutral about his amendment. However, the more I have listened to the argument, the more I have come down on the Government’s side. I recall the very unseemly row when the former Lord Chancellor’s veto was exercised in relation to an appointment, and I believe that I put down a Parliamentary Question. I think that he reversed his decision before I got the Answer, but I certainly tabled a Question about it. There was a furore at the Bar and I was approached by many people to do what I could to defend the reputation of a person who was considered to be the best judge in a particular division. It was extremely unseemly and the Lord Chancellor backed down. What did that say? He had given his veto and then he withdrew it and the appointment went ahead. All these matters should have been sorted out but not in such a public way as to damage the reputation of the person concerned and damage the reputation of the Lord Chancellor, if it needed to be damaged any further. It did not resolve the situation.

I have heard the debate and, as I understand it, the Lord Chancellor does have discussions behind the scenes with the Appointments Commission. That is what was said in terms by the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar. I do not think that that is right. I think we should have an open system. She said that it was open and transparent. It was not—I did not know about it, although I was sufficiently involved to put down a Parliamentary Question about the matter in issue.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Tuesday 27th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

The noble Lord will have to wait and see. One thing is certainly true: I have made every effort to make sure that defamation is not engulfed in a tsunami from Leveson. If we really want to reform defamation and not get caught up in a much wider privacy law, what I am trying to do is the way forward. Stunts like dividing the House tonight will show that, on this Bill, the noble Lord is still more interested in short-term political gain than in making progress.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

As a member of the committee that has just reported, I should remind the noble Lord that it advised against a privacy law.

[Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve]

Before the Minister finishes winding, will he explain to the House why he does not think that these exemptions—the noble Lord, Lord Lester, may be entirely right—are the right way to go? Does he not think that two successive changes in the regime are the very worst thing for litigants in this area? In so far as we are leaving the Bill as it is, one change will happen now and another will happen down the road if there is legislation on defamation.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Tuesday 20th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, we return to the issue of dealing with IPP prisoners. I must say to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, that I do not think there is any doubt about the direction of travel. I am dubious about whether we need the kind of prescriptions in both amendments. Ministers are here to be questioned by Parliament. I do not think that there would be any problem in finding opportunities to check on progress, but let us see.

The Government, through the National Offender Management Service, have already made significant improvements to increase the supply of rehabilitation interventions for this group. One of the main criticisms of IPPs was that people became trapped in them in a kind of Catch-22; they had to fulfil certain requirements to be considered for release but the facilities and channels to get these qualifications, improvements and records were not there. Better use is already being made of sentence plans to prioritise interventions for existing IPPs where the need is greatest, and work is under way to ensure that programmes can be delivered more flexibly, supporting greater access and the inclusion of offenders with more complex needs such as learning difficulties.

In addition, a new specification for offender management, which will provide for the prioritisation of resources based on risk, will take effect from April 2012. Once embedded, this will result in the improved targeting of rehabilitative interventions for IPP prisoners. We are using a range of measures to improve the progression of these prisoners through their sentence, including improvements to assessment, sentence planning, and delivery and parole review processes.

I wrote to the noble Lord following Committee about the work that NOMS is doing to improve support for these prisoners, and I summarise the key points here. First, we plan to issue a prison service instruction that will require effective and realistic sentence plans to be put in place for all offenders on the new extended sentence and for IPP prisoners already in the system.

On the administration of support for IPP prisoners, there are already appropriate structures in place within NOMS to carry out this work. The Indeterminate Sentence Prisoners Co-ordination Group is the NOMS body responsible for co-ordinating the management of all indeterminate sentence prisoners—that is, lifers as well as IPPs. The group’s purpose is to develop and promote the most effective means of managing this group of offenders and to ensure that resources are directed effectively. For example, the group has mandated work to improve the speed of allocation to open prison and identify ways of increasing capacity in the open prison estate for the IPPs, and has co-ordinated the introduction of a new centralised system for organising their transfer.

On the specific amendment, I should make it clear that, as legislation currently stands, it would not be possible for the Secretary of State to produce or delegate anything other than sentence plans for these offenders that may or may not result in progress to a quick release on licence. Statutorily, only the Parole Board can actually direct the release of IPP prisoners on the basis of risk criteria. Amending that situation would be a substantial change to sentences that have already been imposed and would require primary legislation. In Committee, I made it clear that the Government do not believe that that would be appropriate. On the proposal that such plans should be delegated, I noted that it would be unusual for legislation to go into this type of detail about the administration of executive duties.

My noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford proposed a requirement for the Secretary of State to report regularly to Parliament on IPP prisoner parole status and interventions. Information on the number of IPP prisoners whose tariff has expired is published in the quarterly offender management statistics published by my department. The Parole Board’s annual report publishes comprehensive data on its IPP application workload and backlog. I must resist the requirement to report on programmes in individual cases, as this would be hugely difficult to achieve. Offender managers will regularly review and update sentence plans.

Our recent research suggests that while the Parole Board will take account of the completion of accredited programmes when considering whether to direct the release of an IPP prisoner, this is only one part of the evidence that it will consider. Research shows that the parole process is targeted on the individual, and only programmes specific to the individual’s needs that are successfully completed and show some impact on the prisoner are likely to be taken as evidence of sentence progression. Simply counting completed courses will not be good evidence of how prisoners in general are progressing.

I hope that I have said enough to reassure the House that we have already put effective measures in place to support these prisoners’ progress towards release while keeping paramount our concerns for public safety. We have not introduced these reforms to the IPP system simply to see them fail. The biggest incentives for making sure that our reforms work are for the Ministers who brought them in, and we will be pleased to be judged by our results. I hope that both noble Lords will withdraw their amendment.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, I believe that I should reply first. The Minister’s response was encouraging. He said that Ministers were here to be questioned. I shall make a note in my diary to put in a Written Question every six months, asking for the information—or something like it—that I seek in the amendment. It is very important that a close eye is kept on those who remain under an IPP sentence but whose tariff has expired. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Wednesday 14th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

Can my noble friend tell us when these proposals will be finalised and whether it will be during the currency of this Bill?

[Lord McNally]

I am trying to work out the vaguest reply that I can give to that. Discussions are going on and, as I said, we will make an announcement as soon as possible.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

I am very much enlightened by my noble friend’s formulation. The noble Lord, Lord Bach, made a very good point. It is the taxpayer’s money that we are talking about here, and not just the taxpayer but the worthy creditor, the small businessman or even the large businessman who has given credit to a firm that has gone into liquidation, sometimes through fraud and sometimes through incompetence. However, the taxpayer and the businessman are going to suffer because of this provision, unless my noble friend is saying that these proceedings are never going to be brought because there is some other way of doing it. The vagueness has left us all a little in the air. However, for the moment and subject to further discussions between now and Third Reading, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I have said before that we are grateful to my noble friend for raising this issue. It is a possible problem and a number of noble and learned Lords and lawyers outside have given warning signals. At the moment we are looking at how voluntary regulation is working in the area. However, my right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor is very aware of the situation and is keeping it under review. We do not think that statutory regulation through this Bill is either the right place or the right time but we welcome the fact that my noble friend has put this issue on the political radar. Both lawyers and legislators will have to follow the matter closely to see whether we will need to return to it at some future date. In the mean time, I ask my noble friend to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

On this occasion I am grateful to my noble friend for his reply. My purpose was to highlight the insidious advance of third party litigation funding. It is essentially an American concept that has advanced into this country. So far it has reached commercial litigation, with which I have no quarrel. It has also got into family law and I shall be extremely concerned if it were to get into personal injury cases. The fact that the Lord Chancellor now has it on his agenda and will monitor the way in which the voluntary code operates is of great comfort to me and it is on that basis that I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Martin, who talked about the proper role of the House of Lords. Although the hour is late, my noble friend Lord Thomas has demonstrated one of the benefits of this House in bringing to the Government’s attention an area where there already is or could be a malpractice that will have to be dealt with. As he explained, this is a practice where an insurer approaches a claimant directly, usually immediately after a road traffic accident, with a view to settling the claim, where an insurer’s own policyholder is at fault in a car accident. As I understand it, claimant representatives refer to this practice as third party capture, whereas defendant representatives call it third party assistance. As I indicated in Committee, I shall continue to refer to this practice as third party contact.

Amendment 142D would make it an offence for an insurer to make such an unsolicited approach to a potential claimant in a personal injury case. The amendment also specifies those requirements which must be met before an insurer may make an offer to settle such a claim. This includes a requirement to obtain adequate medical evidence of injury and to advise the claimant of their right to obtain full legal advice before accepting the offer and making it clear to the claimant that the offer to settle is full and final.

It is unclear what my noble friend means when he says that this practice should be an offence. If he refers to this as being a criminal offence, I do not believe that a criminal sanction is appropriate or proportionate. You would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that something amounted to an unsolicited approach. As I explained in Committee, the Financial Services Authority regulates the insurance industry and requires insurers to treat their customers fairly at all times and that this covers third party claimants.

Third-party contact does not in itself cause detriment to the consumer and may be to their advantage, as a claim can often be resolved quickly. In addition, this practice can allow insurers to reduce the legal costs associated with handling a claim and this in turn reduces costs for all policyholders. However, I am aware of the concerns around the potential risk of conflict of interest and the need for the claimant to have independent legal advice before any settlement is agreed. This matter was looked at by the FSA in its review of third-party contact during 2009-10 and it did not find conclusive evidence that unrepresented third parties could have achieved higher compensation had they obtained independent legal representation.

Following the FSA’s review, the Association of British Insurers published a code of practice in June 2010. The code contains specific guidance for insurers on contacting claimants. This limits unsolicited contact. For example, and I quote:

“Insurers will not make unsolicited visits to an unrepresented claimant at their current address, including hospitals”.

The code also requires that claimants are informed of their right to seek independent legal advice and other options available for them to resolve their claim.

Most of the issues which this amendment seeks to address in respect of the handling of third-party contact claims are already covered by existing regulation. The FSA rules require that insurers fully inform third party claimants of their legal rights, including to independent legal advice and alternatives to settling directly with the insurer. The Government do not believe it is right or appropriate to introduce further sanctions or regulation in this area, especially when a scheme already exists to monitor insurers’ activities. That said, I can reassure my noble friend that if a serious concern arises in the future in this area—and we will keep it under review—we will not hesitate to take this up with the Treasury and with the FSA.

I am therefore grateful to my noble friend for raising this issue with us, but for the reasons that I have mentioned I hope that he will agree to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. I am glad that some publicity has been give to this practice which I believe to be fairly widespread and causing a great deal of concern. As long as the Government keep their eye on this area, I shall be satisfied. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Monday 12th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

Very good. On the specific issue at hand, we hope to bring in the scheme with the rest of the Bill in 2013 and it will be subject to the affirmative order, so my noble friend will have other opportunities to discuss this matter. As he has now acknowledged, the Explanatory Notes to the Bill make it clear that we intend to use the power in subsection (3) to establish a supplementary legal aid scheme. The scheme will apply to damages cases where the successful party has been legally aided.

As we also said in our response to the consultation on legal aid reform, under the regulations that we will make, 25 per cent of certain damages successfully claimed by legally aided parties will be recovered by the Legal Aid Fund. The relevant damages are all those other than damages for future care and loss. I had better stop there and say that I have just had a message that the procedure will be negative, not affirmative.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

It is negative in the Bill. My amendment would make it affirmative.

[Lord McNally]

It will remain negative.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

That was a quick decision, if I may respectfully say so.

[Lord McNally]

The noble Lord did say that we were allowed to change our mind.

The power at subsection (3) is not new. Section 10(2)(c) of the Access to Justice Act 1999 explicitly allows for regulations to provide that a legally aided person can make a payment exceeding the cost of the services received. When we consulted on the legal aid reforms, we specifically consulted on introducing such a supplementary legal aid scheme.

As well as creating an additional source of funding for civil legal aid, the supplementary legal aid scheme will address the interrelationship between legal aid and the proposed reforms to the costs of civil litigation put forward by Lord Justice Jackson, which are reflected in Part 2 of the Bill. We want to ensure that as far possible the recovery level of damages by the supplementary legal aid scheme complements the Jackson reforms so that conditional fee agreements are no less attractive than legal aid. The recovery level of 25 per cent of all damages, other than those for future care and loss, is therefore based on the success fee cap for a conditional fee agreement in a personal injury case.

Under the Jackson proposals, there will also be an increase of 10 per cent in non-pecuniary general damages, such as damages for pain and suffering and loss of amenity in tort cases. This will help claimants to pay their conditional fee agreement success fee or a 25 per cent portion of the relevant damages, if legally aided.

There has been a suggestion that it is unfair for successful claimants to be asked to help to underwrite the cost of the legal aid scheme in the way proposed. We do not see it as unfair. A claimant who wishes to proceed in a civil action with the aid of public funding is asking the taxpayer to take a risk on his or her behalf. Where that risk bears fruit in the form of what may be a very substantial sum of money, it is perfectly reasonable for a share of that to go back into the public pot so that the continued taking of such risks can more easily be sustained.

In sum, the power to make a supplementary legal aid scheme has now been sought by successive Governments. It has previously been approved by Parliament. Financial constraints are now such that we believe that it would be wrong not to exercise it in the way that we have clearly proposed and consulted on. Omitting to do so would also be out of step with the wider reforms to civil litigation that we are making. In light of my explanation, I hope that the noble Lord will agree to withdraw the amendment.

I now turn to Amendment 130, which would make any regulations made under Clause 22 subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, necessitating a debate and approval of a resolution by both Houses before the regulations could be made. We believe that this amendment is specifically related to Clause 22(3), although it goes much wider. As I have explained, we intend to use the power in Clause 22(3) to make regulations to establish a supplementary legal aid scheme. We believe that this amendment is aimed at ensuring that the details of the supplementary legal aid scheme are subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. An equivalent regulation-making power is contained at Section 10(2)(c) of the Access to Justice Act 1999. That power is subject to the negative resolution procedure. Our starting point is therefore, why should that change?

I am aware that there has been some suggestion that the Government have not been sufficiently clear about their intentions with regard to the use to which they intend to put the power in Clause 22(3). Nothing could be further from the truth. The proposal to introduce a supplementary legal aid scheme was clearly stated in the,

“Summary of the legal aid reform programme”,

contained in Reform of Legal Aid in England and Wales: The Government Response. That paper also contained a five-page annex explaining the proposal in the light of the response to the preceding consultation.

Paragraph 168 of the Explanatory Notes to the Bill also made our intended use of the Clause 22(3) power perfectly clear. Both Houses have now had an opportunity to debate the clause in the light of explanations that we have given. Clause 22(3) was specifically debated both in Committee in the other place and in Committee in your Lordships’ House. We believe that all that, combined with the negative resolution procedure in respect of the regulations, allows adequate public and parliamentary scrutiny in relation to the supplementary legal aid scheme.

The Delegated Powers Committee of the House considered the delegated powers of this Bill and did not comment on the application of the negative resolution procedure in relation to Clause 22(3). The Government’s memorandum to the committee explicitly highlighted our intended use of Clause 22(3). This amendment is therefore unnecessary.

I should also point out that the amendment goes much wider than just Clause 22(3) and would require the affirmative resolution procedure for any regulations under Clause 22. That would be undesirable and disproportionate. The powers under Clause 22 are those that will be used to set out the detailed rules regarding payment of contributions and case costs in respect of both criminal and civil legal aid. The negative resolution procedure is clearly the most appropriate for the type of highly detailed and technical provisions envisaged here, which will require variation from time to time. In those circumstances, I invite my noble friend to withdraw his amendment. I regret the confusion in my note reading halfway through that explanation.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

I think it was Champerty rather than maintenance where a third party takes a chunk of the damages that a litigant obtains in court. It is curious how far we have come to defeat these very ancient principles of English law. You can see the Magna Carta barons around the Chamber looking down on us; you can see them trembling as they listen to my noble friend putting forward this proposition. It is true that it was in the Access to Justice Act, but I do not believe that it was ever brought into force. It is also true that it was mentioned in the consultation document, which I read. In a document of some 150 pages, it covered one-third of a page; one paragraph related to it. It certainly was not highlighted either in the House of Commons or in this House that there should be such a deduction from the damages that are obtained by a legally aided person. I regret that.

A supplementary legal aid scheme could have been an alternative to support for conditional fee agreements—an argument that was made a long time ago—and it is true that a supplementary legal aid scheme has been adopted successfully in Hong Kong for people who do not qualify for legal aid. However, to have it in addition to the other provisions of the Bill is regrettable. For the moment—well, for all time—I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Wednesday 7th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, the amendment seeks to insert a paragraph to provide legal aid for cases concerning whether medical treatment is in the best interests of those incapable of giving or withholding consent. As my noble friend Lord Thomas explained, he also tabled this amendment in Committee, where I think it was established that the matters envisaged by the amendment would in fact already fall within the scope of paragraph 5 of Schedule 1.

However, my noble friend also took the opportunity to speak about the wider issues and asked that I consider the observations made by the judge in the case of W against M and others—in particular, whether an exception could be made to provide free legal aid for mental incapacity cases which concerned the withdrawal of nutrition and hydration from a family member. Although it would not be right to comment on the specifics of any particular case, I understand the concern that such a case can raise. However, we do not plan to abolish means-testing for cases involving the withdrawal of nutrition and hydration. The means test for legal aid is intended to focus our limited resources on those who need them most and takes into account the applicant’s income and any capital they may hold. Those who fall outside the financial eligibility limits are expected to rely on their resources to fund their case. However, if an applicant's circumstances change, they can apply for legal aid funding. I therefore urge my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.

On the specific point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, if he would like to send me the briefing that he has received, I will certainly check on it, write to him and put the letter in the Library of the House.

In the mean time, although I know that my noble friend will be disappointed by my reply, means-testing for legal aid is intended to focus our limited resources on those who need them most.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who have spoken in support of the amendment. I am indeed disappointed by the Minister’s response, but it seems to me that he has accepted that applications of this sort fall within paragraph 5, and that is on the record. I am disappointed that means tests come into a case of this nature; it seems to me utterly heartless that it should be like that, particularly when the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, has pointed out how difficult those cases are. They are heart-rending for the people concerned and for the judge who has to try such issues, not to mention all those who are involved in presenting evidence.

I shall not press the matter, but I register my view that the Government ought to have taken a more generous view on this small number of cases.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Thursday 9th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I am sure that my noble friend’s comments will be noted in the proper places, particularly at reshuffle time.

There will always be debates about whether or not sentences are deterrent. I am not usually in favour of mandatory sentencing and deterrent sentencing, but it is hard to deny that deterrent sentencing could have an effect. It is not just a matter of some barrack-room lawyer; a hardened criminal would know the consequences of reoffending. I share a lot of the concerns about putting declaratory sections into Bills, but sometimes they have their place.

This clause introduces a new mandatory life sentence for an offender who has committed a second very serious sexual or violent offence. Both offences must be so serious as to merit a determinate sentence of 10 years or more. The offence must also be contained in Schedule 15B to the Criminal Justice Act 2003, which is inserted by Schedule 16 to this Bill. Schedule 15B contains the particularly serious offences that were in Schedule 15A to that Act. Previous Schedule 15A convictions make offenders eligible for IPPs and EPPs even if they have not reached the two-year tariff threshold. Schedule 15B also includes further child sex and specific terrorism offences, and the offences of causing or allowing the death of a child or vulnerable adult.

The new mandatory life sentence will affect only those who have committed, on separate occasions, two very serious sexual or violent crimes deserving a custodial sentence of 10 years or more. That is a small number of offenders, but this provision is intended to provide reassurance to the public that very serious repeat offenders of this type can expect to be held indefinitely in prison.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

Perhaps the Box can have the chance to deal with this question. Has any analysis been carried out as to how many people would be liable to a life sentence for committing an offence that is not subject to a life sentence at the moment? It seems that they would be liable to a life sentence if the maximum was only 10 years. Has an analysis been carried out of how many offences in the schedule do not carry a life sentence?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, an impact assessment was made and I think they were talking about 20 cases a year.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

That is not quite the point that I am making. It may be that only 20 people would be sentenced to life imprisonment, but would they be sentenced to life imprisonment under this clause, when for the actual offence that they had committed, they could not receive a life sentence? In other words, many serious offences carry life sentences; some do not. I would be grateful for an analysis as to how many would not have a life sentence were it not for this clause.

[Lord McNally]

As far as I understand it, the second serious offence would carry a life sentence.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

That is not what it says, as I understand it—perhaps the Box can help him.

[Lord McNally]

That is as I understand it, but I will write to the noble Lord if I am wrong. The other point that has been made—but of course if you try to be reasonable, you are derided—is that the courts are exempted from imposing the mandatory life sentences where they believe it is unjust to do so in all circumstances. It is the policy intention that offenders who have committed two serious offences not carrying life sentences will be liable to the mandatory sentence. However, we cannot at this moment assess the likely numbers that would be affected by that.

As I said before, we have a sense of schizophrenia about this. Perhaps I may finish with a quote from Sadiq Khan:

“Through their “two strikes” policy, the Government absolve themselves totally of any responsibility to identify the serious, violent offenders who are most likely to reoffend. That should be done at the time when the first sentence is handed down for the commission of a heinous crime”.—[Official Report, 1/11/11; col. 796.]

There is not much sense of rehabilitation or reform there. We have to deal with a serious set of reforms and what we get is headline-grabbing attacks on the basis that we are going to let out violent criminals and the rest of it. That is why I hope that some of the unity that was shown earlier about penal reform will resolve itself around support for the Government as we try to manage these proposals through the House.

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[Lord McNally]

My Lords, if Clause 117 is to stand part of the Bill, Amendments 179C to 179F will ensure that the Secretary of State’s power to amend by order the release test that the Parole Board must follow when considering the release of prisoners applies consistently to all categories of determinate sentence prisoner whose release is determined by the board. Currently, the clause applies to the release test for IPP and extended sentence prisoners but there are some other types of determinate sentence which also include a period of parole eligibility and are subject to the same release test. We think the order-making power to change the test should apply equally in those cases. These amendments therefore propose to extend the order-making power to the other categories of determinate sentence to which it does not currently apply. These are: first, the 1991 Act prisoners serving four years or more who are parole eligible between the half and two-thirds points of sentence; and, secondly, the 2003 Act extended sentences imposed before 14 July 2008, when release between the half and end points of the custodial period is at the discretion of the Parole Board. This is simply about ensuring the order-making power in this clause is applied consistently to all determinate sentences when the same release test is used. I beg to move.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

Your Lordships will recall that in connection with an earlier amendment I referred to the existing test—which will continue to apply under this Bill—for the Parole Board to apply in considering whether a person should be released. The existing test is that the board is satisfied that it is no longer necessary for the protection of the public that the prisoner should be confined. Your Lordships will recall the criticisms that I made of that. In his reply, the Minister said that Clause 117 gives power to the Lord Chancellor to change that test. I am a little bit puzzled, and I ask my noble friend to explain why that power to change the test is in there. Furthermore, I am very pleased that it is, because I think that the present test is neither fair nor just. The power to change the test is in subsection (1), where,

“the Parole Board … must direct the prisoner’s release if it is satisfied that conditions specified in the order are met, or … must do so unless it is satisfied that conditions specified in the order are met”.

I know that my noble friend, as he earlier confessed, is a follower of Blackpool football club, but at the weekend he may have had the opportunity of watching the Wales versus Ireland rugby match at Lansdowne Road. An incident there perfectly illustrates the situation. There was a pile-up over the line and the referee, instead of making the decision and awarding the try which Wales had so clearly scored, called in the TMO and said, “Has the try been scored—yes or no?”. Immediately, that illustrious and brilliant commentator Jonathan Davies, a brilliant player in his own day, said, “He’s asking the wrong question. The question he should ask is: ‘Is there any reason why this try should not be awarded?’”. By asking it as, “Has he scored it—yes or no?”, the referee was pushing the decision over to the TMO; but if he were to ask the second question, he would be taking responsibility by saying, “I am going to award the try unless you tell me that there is a reason why I should not”.

Applying the same approach to the release of a prisoner, the Parole Board should not be asking whether the prisoner has complied with this or that test; it should be asking: “Is there any reason why we should not release this prisoner? Is evidence being produced for us to look at in reaching a conclusion on whether this prisoner can be safely returned to the community?”.

That is the reason why I support Clause 117—in the hope that the second alternative, in subsection (1)(b), is adopted, and that the Lord Chancellor will then very quickly see the necessity of changing the Parole Board’s test to one that is far fairer: “Is there any reason why, after serving the period of the tariff that the judge has imposed”—which is supposed to be what the judge would have awarded by way of a sentence had he taken that course—“this person should not be released?”. I commend this clause and suggest that the power should be exercised very quickly.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Tuesday 7th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I could not agree more with the noble Baroness. That was very much the thrust of the Corston report and of what the Government are trying to do in carrying through their justice reforms, particularly in the treatment of women offenders.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

I am concerned about the instructions given to probation officers who carry out pre-sentence reports. Will my noble friend look into the matter before Report and find out in what circumstances it is acceptable for a probation officer to fashion a pre-sentence report based simply on a videolink and ticking boxes on a form on the other side? When is that permitted and what particular guidance is given to probation officers in those circumstances?

[Lord McNally]

One of the reasons why I am always at a disadvantage when dealing with my noble friend is because he usually has some recent case in which he has personally participated that proves the case he is making. I have noted what he said and will check whether that is regular practice. As I said, the Appeal Court has made it very clear that if reports are not asked for or are deficient, that in itself could be grounds for an appeal.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Tuesday 7th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

I do not know if my noble friend is agreeing with the proposition, but in these more enlightened days we would all agree that the law on that particular aspect was an ass.

[Lord McNally]

I live and learn. I shall make the point, though, that the phrase, “The law is an ass”, is used more widely than just in terms of the marital relations referred to by my noble friend Lord Thomas. But I digress.

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[Lord McNally]

If there is anybody I take even more notice of in these matters than my noble friend Lady Linklater, it is my noble friend Lord Dholakia. I will take away that suggestion. As I said, we are looking at the question of expenses in helping to grease the wheels of better liaison. If my noble friend’s suggestion is feasible, I am sure that we can take it forward. I will certainly take it away and think about it.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, I would be interested if the Minister could encourage the presiding judges of each circuit around the country to carry out an audit of what the situation is in their particular circuit. The presiding judges have a great deal of influence and control over the way that the judicial system works within their bailiwick. Requiring each presiding judge to be in charge of such an investigation is a better way to go about it than starting from the centre—from London—and working outward.

[Lord McNally]

I am not sure what my powers are in instructing, advising or making requests of presiding judges. I suspect that the present Lord Chief Justice might start breathing down my neck. I note what my noble friend has suggested and I will take that back to think about.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Wednesday 1st February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I am not sure that I am able to commit to anything as rash as following up a recommendation that is a mere 62 years old. As always with interventions by my noble friend, I will take that away, but I should also make the point, given that this is the last of a series of amendments chipping away at—to use the term that I used the other night—the central architecture of the reforms that we are trying to introduce, that we have consulted on these matters. We have indicated the idea that PCOs may be a way forward in our commitment under the Aarhus convention. I will certainly make sure that the learned counsel’s opinion is fully studied. As I have explained, the Government’s view is that the best way forward is within the rules rather than within legislation, but this has given a good airing to the issue. The whole House is now more familiar with the Aarhus convention—I understand it is a Danish town—and we are the better for that debate. I therefore ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, it is a relief to know that the Ministry of Justice, like New York, never sleeps. No doubt the opinion will be pored over and there will be further discussions before we get to Report.

I invite my noble friend to do this now. He says that the proper way to proceed is for one-way cost-shifting to be introduced by tailored Civil Procedure Rules. Your Lordships will recall that on Monday the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and I made the point that there should be guidance from Parliament, not simply a discussion between the Executive and the Civil Procedure Rule Committee, about the parameters of those rules and what the boundaries and structure are to be. I would be grateful to know from the Minister the position on this particular point. He is shifting the burden of the success fee and the ATE premium over to the successful claimant. Is that going to be co-ordinated and timed to come into effect at the same time as one-way cost-shifting? That is the key issue. If you do not have one-way cost-shifting, you are shifting to the claimant the liability for the defendant’s entire costs, if he should lose, and consequently an enormous premium. We heard of premiums of £900,000. I am familiar with a premium of £80,000. I think that the standard is in thousands for any sort of claim. If, on the other hand, one-way cost-shifting comes in and the defendants’ costs are paid by the defendants win or lose, we will be concerned with a premium for a much smaller thing, which is the disbursements of the claimant, should he lose. The risk is that much smaller.

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[Lord McNally]

The pained look with which the noble Lord, Lord Bach, comes to the Dispatch Box and implies that the Government is the first Government in the world to bring forward legislation with further consultations needed about specific regulation is a bit rich. The implications of this Bill will come into force in April 2013. We have a period of time for such consultations. As I said before, I take the point that there has to be a synchronisation in these matters. I do not think we are doing anything unusual by legislating in this way, but we take on board the points made in this debate.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

I am grateful to my noble friend for saying there will be synchronisation. The scales of justice have been tipped against defendants by this fourfold cost that they have been calling for over a period of time. The purpose of this Bill is to even the scales of justice up. If there is any period between shifting from that side to this side the success fee and the ATE insurance without providing one-way costs as the balance, the scales will go completely in the opposite direction, and it is the suffering claimants who will come out the worst in a situation like that.

I cannot resist coming back to the question of protective costs orders, having heard my noble friend Lord Lester. Protective costs orders are applied for in public interest cases. I am not concerned simply with public interest cases. These could be the private individual, the householder whose house is flooded, in the example that I gave—

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[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I am sure that that postscript will be studied by the Lord Chancellor, and he will carefully study this debate. As I was saying in my concluding remarks, I thank my noble friend Lord Thomas for introducing this subject and noble Lords for expressing a variety of views on it. The Lord Chancellor would like further time to reflect and I ask my noble friend to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken. I accept that the opposing view, put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, was certainly an arguable one. I have not suggested that third-party funding should be banned but that it should be subject to statutory regulation, as opposed to the voluntary code.

I could not help reflecting on my rugby days and the occasional game in which the leader of the forwards, an extremely formidable person, would observe the scrum-half dropping the ball and say to us in the pack, “Boys, they’ve had their chance. We’re not going to give it to them again”. Consequently, everything changed and we adopted a different tactic.

Here, a voluntary code has been brought in. They have had their chance. In formulating the voluntary code, they did not include what Lord Justice Jackson rightly set out as the essential needs of such a code. They decided not to do that. When approached by the industry to say that they should limit themselves to commercial litigation, they decided not to do that. A two-page code has been produced of nine clauses which gives the broadest possibilities to the funders for the way in which they operate. I am not satisfied with that. I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, and the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, for their support. There is a perception of a genuine problem arising.

I look forward to further discussion with my noble friend and, perhaps, the Lord Chancellor, and we will see whether we can take forward this matter for Report but, for the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord McNally]

The noble Lord says he speaks from very long experience. As this Bill progresses, I have found that quite often noble Lords on all sides of the House who have more experience than me of the legal profession tell me that there is often a gap between what is written down and the reality of the day-to-day practice.

Third-party contact does not, in itself, cause detriment to consumers and may be to their advantage as a claim can often be resolved quickly. In addition, this practice can allow insurers to reduce the legal costs associated with handling a claim, and this in turn reduces costs for all policyholders. However, I am aware of concerns around the potential risk of conflict of interest and the need for the claimant to have independent legal advice before any settlement is agreed. The FSA undertook a review of third-party contact during 2009-10 and did not find conclusive evidence that unrepresented third parties could have achieved higher compensation had they obtained independent legal representation.

Following the FSA’s review, which was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, the Association of British Insurers published a code of practice, to which he referred, in June 2010. The code contains specific guidance for insurers on contacting claimants. This limits unsolicited contact. For example:

“Insurers will not make unsolicited visits to an unrepresented claimant at their current address, including hospitals”.

I know we will be returning to some of this later. The code also requires that claimants are informed of their right to seek independent legal advice and of other options available to them to resolve their claim. As I have indicated, the practice was reviewed in 2009-10 but was not found, overall, to be disadvantageous to claimants.

In summary, most of the issues that these amendments seek to address in respect of the handling of third-party contact claims are already covered by existing regulation. The FSA rules require that insurers fully inform third-party claimants of their legal rights, including to independent legal advice, and of alternatives to settling directly with the insurer. In the light of this, we do not believe it is necessary to go along the lines of the noble Lord’s amendment, and I ask him to withdraw it.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

I am disappointed with that response. I do think it adequately addresses reality as it exists today in the approaches by insurers to accident victims.

In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, subsection (1) of my amendment prohibits the third party’s insurance company soliciting a claimant,

“where to the knowledge of the insurance company, the claimant is legally represented”.

Subsection (2) refers to a situation where that is not the case: the claimant is not legally represented or the insurance company does not know that he is legally represented. It sets out three terms: that the offer to settle can be made only when the insurance company,

“has obtained adequate medical evidence … and has disclosed it to the claimant; and … the claimant is advised when the offer is made of his right to obtain legal advice; and … the offer is in full and final settlement of the cause of action”.

The sanction that I have quite deliberately put into this amendment is not that it is an offence or anything of that sort but that a settlement made in breach of those subsections shall be void, which means, in effect, that if a person has been bought off for a small sum, he can reopen the matter without any problems. He can go to a solicitor, get proper advice, get a proper medical report and come back. To my mind, that appears to be the right way forward.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Monday 30th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

They are ongoing. I admit that sounds like that song “Reviewing the Situation” from “Oliver!” but I have no doubt that the good relations between the MoJ and Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs will produce a satisfactory result, which I will report to the House at the earliest possible moment. In the mean time, I request the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

While I am most grateful to my noble friend for that reply, it would be helpful for these negotiations to complete before we have to vote on this matter on Report—as we undoubtedly will, along with the people who have signed it. Can I suggest to my noble friend that he talks to whoever he has to in order to get a move on? It seems a no-brainer to me that this amendment should be accepted and the quicker it is resolved, certainly before Report, the better.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Monday 30th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

This is not only about public funds, but it is about how you create—to use this term again—an architecture for this type of litigation that squeezes out from the system the inflation that went to the lawyers. That was identified by the Master of the Rolls, by the Lord Chief Justice and by Lord Justice Jackson. In trying to respond to that problem, I am fully aware of the hard cases, and I have spent most of the afternoon dealing with them. Of course hard cases are difficult to argue, but that is the central issue that we are trying to address. To succeed, we will have to stand firm against some of these hard cases, I am afraid.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

The issue really is this: should all cases be treated alike? Well, Lord Justice Jackson did not treat all types of litigation alike. For example, he specifically recommended that clinical negligence should stay within legal aid, for various reasons that we have gone through that I do not need to repeat. Nor did he suggest that all his proposals should be limited to personal injury cases; he thought that they should be broader but they could vary, depending on the particular circumstances.

The reason for that is that risk varies. For road traffic accidents, nine out of 10 cases will be won because it is fairly easy to determine in a road traffic accident who is at fault, to what degree and so on, and the quantum follows thereafter. In clinical negligence cases, three out of four cases will be lost, so the risk is very different. That is why Lord Justice Jackson decided that clinical negligence should remain within the scope of legal aid. We are not involving government money or public money here; what we are trying to discuss is what constitutes a fair balance in a particular category of case, which can vary from case to case. I do not think that we should approach this on the basis that there is an architecture that should apply to every particular type of claim that is ever brought.

In mesothelioma cases, for example, we are not so much concerned with the fact that the person has the disease; what we are concerned with, as the noble Lord will appreciate from the very moving story that he told about his own family, is causation. That is the issue in this type of case. You can easily show that someone has died as a result of this disease, but what caused it, when, how and whether the case has been brought within a reasonable period of time are at issue. Very often, that requires not the sort of expenditure on medical reports that you get in clinical negligence cases; it often depends on expert reports on where the asbestos was, how it was dealt with and whether there was a likelihood, which passes the threshold of more likely than not, that that particular presence of asbestos in the workplace at a particular time caused the disease from which, as in the case that I cited, many years later the particular individual dies. We can therefore see that in some cases it is a medical issue, while in some cases it is causation, but they differ—and it is quite legitimate for the Committee to consider the different type of case, as we have in our discussion of judicial review, for example. In our debate on the next set of amendments, I shall come on to the question of environmental law, where very different issues arise compared with other types of litigation. We are not looking for an architecture to involve everything; we are looking for what is right in a particular category of cases. I propose in a moment, when this amendment will I hope be withdrawn, to enlighten your Lordships a little about environmental law.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Tuesday 24th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

Throughout the Bill, we have tried to restructure legal aid so as to deal with the most vulnerable in our society in a way which we think is fair. My noble friend Lord Phillips referred to the squeeze being put on CABs by local authorities. There have been squeezes on local authorities and on the Ministry of Justice. The country is having to readjust to a considerable degree to what is available for many good causes, and that is why this debate is reoccurring in Committee.

As I say, I recognise the general concern about the future of such funding. I hope I can reassure the House by making it clear that the Government value the services provided by the not-for-profit sector and are committed to ensuring that people continue to have access to good-quality free advice in their communities. That is why the Government have launched the advice services fund and a review of free advice services. The Government have set aside £20 million to support the not-for-profit sector. That is about the seventh time of announcement but, to provide clarity for the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, I say that it is still the same £20 million. This fund will provide immediate support for the not-for-profit advice service providers to deliver essential services in debt, welfare benefit, employment and housing advice. An announcement on the fund and review was made on 21 November by my honourable friend Nick Hurd MP, Minister for Civil Society, in the other place.

It is important to recognise that legal aid is only one of several funding streams that not-for-profit organisations receive and that the future sustainability of the sector is a cross-government issue which this Bill cannot be expected to solve on its own. Accordingly, alongside the advice services fund, the Cabinet Office is conducting a review into local advice provision, looking at the funding environment for these services, likely levels of demand and how government can play a positive role. The Cabinet Office will work with other departments that either fund advice services or whose activities have an impact on advice services, such as my department, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the Department for Work and Pensions, the Department for Communities and Local Government, and the Treasury.

The House may also be reassured to know that both the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister are taking a keen interest in these reviews. Stakeholder events with representatives from the sector, to gain their input into the review, have already been held by the Cabinet Office. I urge the House to await the conclusions of that review, which is expected in the spring. My officials are working closely with colleagues across government to support this important work. I hope this will reassure the Committee that I and my colleagues in government are united in our efforts to support the not-for-profit sector while it adapts to difficult changes in the funding landscape. I therefore urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in the debate and I accept all the criticisms that have been made as no doubt very well founded. In his reply, my noble and learned friend—

[Lord McNally]

I am not learned.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

No—but you will be by the time I have finished.

In his reply my noble friend said that we must await the conclusions of the group that is looking into this matter, which has already taken advice, as I understand it, and carried out various consultation processes. I want to know when it is going to report. I have discovered that in government departments the spring can turn quickly into the summer. The Bill will be through this House by the middle of March and we would all be much happier if we were assured by that time that the future of the CABs, the law centres and so on is secured to give precisely the advice for which the grant was announced in November—for welfare, for employment and so on—as the noble Lord said.

I am anxious that the group should get a move on and that we should receive these reassurances so that we can be confident that the gap that will arise through the withdrawal of legal aid will, to a degree, be filled. I understand the position of the noble Lord, Lord Bach. He does not want anything to interfere with the general thrust that everything in social welfare law should go back under Part 1. Indeed, voices on my Benches have made exactly the same comments, including me. However, if that is not to happen we must be sure that there is a source of advice in these very important areas which will be available to the citizens of this country. At the moment, I ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord McNally]

As I said, we are in confessional mood tonight. The Government are currently considering a related proposition under which the value of restrained assets might be taken into consideration in the Crown Court means test. Until that proposition has been considered fully, we believe it premature to suggest an amendment to the Proceeds of Crime Act.

This has been an interesting debate. We have heard what the noble Lord, Lord Bach, said in apology for previous omissions by his own Government. As I say, we are looking at the value of restrained assets in the Crown Court, but at the moment we believe it premature to suggest an amendment to the Proceeds of Crime Act and I therefore ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

The problem is that my noble friend the Minister has not explained why people are allowed recklessly to dissipate criminal assets in civil cases. Why do you have one rule for civil cases, when you can use what are described as criminal assets although they are not necessarily so, and another rule in criminal cases? What is happening at the moment is that defendants are recklessly dissipating legal aid. That is the point and that is why legal aid is so high in criminal cases—it is being recklessly dissipated. My noble friend Lord Carlile explained how it can be done: you can have application after application; you can have little trials within trials; you can have satellite litigation; and the case can run on and on for months.

In the old Stafford Assize Court, which possibly the noble Lord, Lord Bach, has visited—

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[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

I thought there was a printer’s error here: that is why I inserted “not”. It is not a matter of principle; I could not imagine that the Government would require someone’s contribution to exceed the costs and put money into the hands of the Lord Chancellor. I do not see any reason for that and I await the explanation with interest.

[Lord McNally]

This had better be good. Amendments 112 and 113 would prevent anyone in receipt of civil legal aid being required to pay an amount for that legal aid which exceeds the amount of the legal aid itself. We intend to use the powers in subsection (3) to establish a supplementary legal aid scheme which will provide an additional source of funding to supplement the legal aid fund. As indicated in our response to the consultation on legal aid reform, under this scheme 25 per cent of damages obtained by successful legal-aided parties, other than damages for future care and loss, will be recovered by the legal aid fund. The supplementary legal aid scheme will apply to successful damages cases where the successful party is legal aided, including any out-of-scope cases which are funded through the exceptional funding scheme.

The provision at subsection (3) is not new. There is already an equivalent provision in Section 10(2)(c) of the Access to Justice Act 1999, which allows for the establishment of a supplementary legal aid scheme whereby a legal-aided person makes a payment exceeding the cost of the services received. The power has not been exercised to date but, as we have made clear, we intend to do so in the future, so it is important that the Bill retains the provision to enable this.

At a time when the public purse is constrained, the funds recouped by the supplementary legal aid scheme will help to put legal aid on a sustainable footing and therefore help support the funding of civil legal aid cases. Besides creating a valuable additional source of funding for legal aid, in setting up the supplementary legal aid scheme we are addressing the interrelationship between legal aid and the proposal for reform to the cost of civil litigation put forward by Lord Justice Jackson and reflected in Part 2.

We want to ensure that, so far as it is possible to do so, the recovery level of damages by the supplementary legal aid scheme is consistent with the Jackson reforms to ensure that conditional fee agreements are no less attractive than legal aid. We have therefore selected a recovery level of 25 per cent of all damages, other than those for future care and loss. This mirrors the maximum level of damages that a solicitor will be able to claim from a successful client under a conditional fee agreement in a personal injury case. Under the Jackson proposals, there will also be an increase of 10 per cent in non-pecuniary general damages such as damages for pain and suffering and loss of amenity in tort cases for all claimants. This will help claimants to pay their CFA success fee or supplementary legal aid scheme contribution.

With that explanation, I hope the noble Lord will agree to withdraw his amendment.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Tuesday 10th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

I wish to add further concerns, having heard the Minister’s reply. I understand that the director would have to follow directions and guidance given on matters of merits and eligibility. Standards would have to be set as to what has to be satisfied, and eligibility in relation to finance is something that the Lord Chancellor would be concerned with. But I have some concerns about the emphasis on individual cases as opposed to a category of cases.

We sought in Amendment 16 to take one category of case—namely, cases against the Government or government agencies, or whatever. The Lord Chancellor ought not to be able to interfere in any category of case that is within the scope of Part 1 of the Bill. He should not be able to say that there are too many of these cases and we have to cut down, and the wording leaves that open.

Another matter that concerns me is exactly what is intended. The Minister used once the expression “an executive agency”. What is that? Is it a body within the Ministry of Justice or is it to be set up separately? Is it to be staffed only by civil servants or is it to be able to recruit its own people to it? What is the relationship of the executive agency headed by the director to the Ministry of Justice? We are very familiar with the concept of the Director of Public Prosecutions and the sometimes rather fraught relationship between the DPP and the Attorney-General, who is responsible for the director’s decisions in a parliamentary sense but not necessarily able to give him directions or control him in any way. So the independence of the DPP is a very interesting model which I would have thought the director of legal aid casework ought to follow. That means having an executive agency recruiting its own people and a constructive tension between the director and the Lord Chancellor, or whoever the Minister of Justice happens to be at the time. I would like to probe the concept a little further at this stage. What is this executive agency? How will it be staffed? What is the relationship between its director and the Minister of Justice? It may be that I am posing these questions at the wrong stage in this debate. If my noble friend is not able to answer these questions at the moment, I am sure he will explain them to me at a later stage.

[Lord McNally]

I can do no more than suggest that the noble Lord reads the Bill, because it sets out the structure for carrying out this function within an agency which is within the Ministry of Justice and staffed by civil servants appointed on the criteria which have stood us in good stead for the past 130 years. Again, as with the other contributions to this debate, I will take those matters back and see whether there are areas that can be better clarified to give my noble friend the assurances that he requires.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McNally]

That is a merry jest with which to end the evening.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, I have to confess that I am disappointed with my noble friend’s response and I shall certainly return to this issue on Report. The Government have to appreciate that they are taking family law out of scope, which means that there are going to be couples who are at each other’s throats. There are various ways in which they can resolve their problems. They can say, “He hit me on one occasion. It is domestic abuse, so I want legal aid”. All the fears that have been expressed by the Government of people pushing domestic abuse up the agenda in order to get legal aid and thus making it more difficult to settle will become prevalent.

Here is a system where, on a fixed fee, issues of finance, housing and children can be settled, which is exactly what we as solicitors used to do. We would pick up the phone and talk to the opposing solicitor in order to sort things out without having to go to court. If you do not have a system like this to resolve issues, inevitably it is going to cost more. As I say, there will not necessarily be made-up allegations of abuse, but the little disputes that have occurred in a marriage may perhaps be tarted up just enough to make it possible for legal aid to be involved. You are then into an expensive system. I will therefore return to the matter on Report and I shall continue to advocate this very excellent system. I am pleased to see that the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, is involved. So far as I am concerned, the process has been given the seal of approval. For the moment, however, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Tuesday 20th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

This is another moment in history. I have been heckled for mispronunciation by the noble Lord, Lord Prescott. I stand corrected. The exceptional funding scheme will provide an important safety net for cases in which an egregious inequality of arms would lead to an obvious and unlawful unfairness in proceedings.

We have had to make difficult choices about legal aid. Our reforms to the scope of the scheme are designed to refocus civil legal aid on the most serious cases in which legal advice and representation is justified. In social welfare law, education and immigration, we are reducing the availability of legal aid; but it will remain for cases with the highest priority, and we will continue to spend £50 million on social welfare law.

As I said in the other debate, I realise that noble Lords will want to study some of the things that I read out at speed while referring and cross-referring to parts of the Bill. I think my noble friend indicated that he will withdraw his amendment, and I hope he will, although I am making no promises of massive change. One of the crunch parts of this Bill as it passes through the House will be whether we rightly judged which areas we are withdrawing from the scope of legal aid. The Lord Chancellor and my colleagues in government are confident that we have made the right decisions, hard as they have been in some cases; so, as I say, I hope that the noble Lord will, at this stage, withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, I thought I detected in the last few sentences the possibility of some movement in this area, but despite that the final sentence was a killer. I am very disappointed with my noble friend’s response to what I considered to be an overwhelming case. If you cannot get legal aid for the Second-tier Tribunal, the Court of Appeal and above, as of right, we really are in a very parlous position. I assure my noble friend that I shall press him on these matters in the future. I thank all noble Lords for their participation in this debate and say to your Lordships that the state in Amendment 2 is widely defined to include local authorities, government organisations and so on. That is quite well understood when we deal with the concept of equality of arms.

While I listened to my noble friend’s summing up, I was reminded of the one person I know quite well who appeared as a litigant in person in the Divisional Court and won—my noble friend Lady Walmsley. The authority concerned went to appeal, where she was represented by a leading counsel, who is now a High Court judge, and by my son, who is a Queen’s Counsel in his own right, and lost. Fortunately her costs were all paid by the authority concerned. It takes an exceptional person to be able to take a case before a judge as a litigant in person and argue it through. The Government have underestimated just how exceptional that person has to be. For the moment, and subject to what I shall say at a later date, I beg leave to withdraw this amendment.

Justice: Pre-trial Publicity

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Wednesday 14th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I think that the response to the noble Baroness’s question reflects concern in all parts of the House about this matter. There are a number of problems with the operation of the contempt laws which are set out in detail in the Law Commission’s Eleventh Programme. Since 1981, when the Contempt of Court Act was enacted, the world of publishing has evolved considerably in terms of technology and the structure of the media, and the internet is now a significant influence in this area. That is why we have referred the matter to the Law Commission. In no sense should this be taken as our kicking it into the long grass or as the Attorney-General not appreciating the real public concern about these matters.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, some in the press take a gamble with pre-trial publicity that the suspect will be charged and convicted, after which there will, of course, be no proceedings. In the McCann and Jefferies cases, they then became completely contrite and settled the claims without any question. Should they not lose a day’s edition as a result of circumstances as bad as that? Can we not have measures that will really bite on the press when it goes astray?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, my noble friend’s idea is an interesting one. I understand—just a thought—that an editor has not been sent to prison for contempt since 1948. The Attorney-General, who has been alive to this matter, said in a lecture at City University on 1 December that, in his opinion, the press has been pushing at the boundaries and in a sense has subtly been seeking guidance on what is acceptable. I hope that the Attorney-General’s action has given it suitable guidance that we take this matter very seriously.

Coroner Service

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Tuesday 1st November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

A Government is allowed to look at an issue, examine widely, listen, consult, and then make a decision in the context of the financial circumstances it finds at the end. My right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor has decided that the immediate appointment of a chief coroner is not justified in the present circumstances. After listening to the various representations, we left the title of chief coroner in Schedule 5 to the Bill when it returned from the other place, and that will allow this House, the other place and the outside organisations to judge whether we are still able to carry through the bulk of the 2009 Act without the chief coroner. We believe we can, and by our deeds you can judge us.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

The charter will not be statutory so how will it be enforced?

[Lord McNally]

The Coroners and Justice Act 2009 provides for the Lord Chancellor to issue statutory guidance about the way in which the system operates, specifically in relation to bereaved families. We plan to revise the charter when we implement the coroner provisions in the Act and at that stage we will give the revised charter the status of statutory guidance.

Crime: Youth Justice

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Monday 24th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, perhaps fortunately, I am responsible for the Ministry of Justice, and, there, we have come to the clear conclusion that we can operate the responsibilities of the Youth Justice Board better by creating a new youth justice division, which will be a dedicated part of the MoJ sitting outside NOMS, and maintaining continuity and expertise by agreeing that John Drew, the current chief executive of the YJB, will lead the division.

We have indeed received a number of responses—70 in all, I think—to the consultation, which closed on 11 October. The department is studying those responses and will report in due course.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, Mr Crispin Blunt, in his evidence to the Justice Committee in another place, said that there were complaints from youth offending team managers about the Youth Justice Board. How many complaints were there and what was the nature of those complaints?

[Lord McNally]

I have not seen in detail the evidence given by my honourable friend. I suspect that almost in the order of things there are occasional irritations between a central and a local body. Throughout the life of the YJB, there have been various debates about where the onus of responsibility should lie. We believe that by slimming down the central role of the YJB, we can give youth offending teams more responsibility, in keeping with the Government’s localism policy. I will investigate whether the exact exchanges that Mr Blunt was referring to are available on the public record and what they contain, and if I can reveal them to my noble friend, I will.

Crime: Home Protection

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Thursday 20th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. Although it has been a short debate, it has been extremely informative and worth while. I pay particular tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, in introducing it. I have told him before that one of my very dear friends, now no longer with us, was Lord Gray of Contin. I remember Hamish telling me that he had found a bright, new young star for the Conservative Party for whom he predicted great things. I am sure that it would have given Hamish great pleasure to have been here today to hear the noble Lord introduce these matters with such authority and passion.

The noble Lord, Lord Bach, ended with some interesting quotes, including “state-sponsored revenge” and “sentencing … in the home”. It is worth while stating from the beginning that this is not the Government’s intention or the direction of travel. I hope that my reply to the contributions that have been made in the debate will make that quite clear.

I am not a lawyer, so, unlike the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, or the noble Lord, Lord Bach, I cannot unfortunately call on experience from various cases. My only experience is that I once chased a burglar down the street in my pyjamas in my bare feet. I was 21 at the time but I could not catch him even then, so I cannot tell what I would have done if I had caught up with him.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

Does the Minister accept that if he had chased after him and had beaten him up then, that would have been revenge and not self-defence?

[Lord McNally]

By the time I had reached the end of a rather long road near Archway, I was so exhausted that I doubt that I would have inflicted much damage on him.

However, I understand the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra. Someone breaking into your own home is a terrifying experience. A noble Baroness in this House—I will not name her because I did not get her permission—told me about a burglary and what a trauma it was for her. Interestingly enough, the healing for her came when the burglar was arrested later and she was asked whether she would like to meet him. Her reason for telling me the story was to advocate the benefits of restorative justice. She said that whereas what she had confronted in her flat was a terrifying situation and someone she was very frightened of, when she met a rather pathetic drug addict who had broken in in the hope of getting something to feed his drug addiction the terror somehow drained away. Her story was a little bit of anecdotal evidence of restorative justice in action and benefiting the victim.

The noble Lord, Lord Bach, asked about the Human Rights Act and the ECHR. As he well knows, any proposals that we would have to make—

Industrial Tribunals: Fees

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Wednesday 19th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, there is no aim to go back to what the noble Lord, Lord Martin, could rightly describe as the “bad old days”. The industrial tribunals system will remain and people will still have access to it. We expect that the tribunals will have the power to order that unsuccessful parties reimburse the fee paid by the successful party so that costs are ultimately borne by the party which causes the system to be used. There is nothing in the system that does not say that a small proportion of the costs cannot be charged. We do not believe that that would fundamentally undermine the very good work that the tribunal system does.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, does my noble friend accept that meritorious claims will be as much discouraged by the imposition of fees as vexatious ones? The Government should not base their policy of charging fees on trying to limit the number of cases that come to the tribunals. My noble friend will recall the discussion that we had about this in the immigration appeals tribunal last week.

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I suspect that we will have discussions along these lines over a range of issues. I suspect that small charges for access to courts such as the tribunal service will not have a deterrent effect on meritorious cases. One small range of consultations suggested that there might be a small fall-off in applications with the introduction of fees. As part of the consultation that will take place in December, we hope to widen that impact assessment to make sure that we are going down the right road. Between 2001 and 2010, there was an 81 per cent increase in cases going to employment tribunals. There is a limit to what a free service at the taxpayers’ expense can bear.

Legal Aid

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Tuesday 18th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I can not give a precise answer to that, but the LSC has taken a number of steps to expedite payments to contracted providers and is committed to investigating any claim where a bill is not paid within the correct timescale. While there have recently been some delays in civil bill processing, the LSC maintains that the vast majority of payments are being made within their published target times. I will, however, look at the matter of quarterly payments.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

Is my noble friend aware that the Law Society has had to write to banks, asking them to treat legal aid practitioners with special care, because of a backlog in payments by the Legal Services Commission, and is his response—that they are all paid on time—not a little disingenuous? Is there not a very considerable backlog at the moment?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I did not say that they were all being paid on time, but I did say that the Legal Services Commission is addressing the problem that has arisen. A backlog had built up and the commission faced criticism, but it has addressed the problem and is moving to cut the backlog. So I am not being disingenuous in any way. I am acknowledging that there has been a problem, which the commission is addressing. It maintains that the vast majority of payments are being made within their published target times.

Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (Exceptions) (Amendment) (England and Wales) Order 2011

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I beg to move the four Motions standing in my name on the Order Paper en bloc.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, in relation to the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act order, the Minister will recall that when we discussed the matter in Grand Committee we raised very considerable difficulties about owners and managers not having clearance with regard to convictions. Can my noble friend assist with the worries raised at that time?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, my noble friend is referring to the new alternative business structures for legal firms. It is true that both he and my noble friend Lord Hunt raised these points in Committee, and I agreed to take the matter back to ministerial colleagues if they would allow this order to proceed. I have done so, and Ministers have agreed that consideration and a decision in respect of the business case for the inclusion in the exceptions order of owners and managers of alternative business structures should be made as soon as possible. In the event that the Ministers agree that any addition should be made to the exceptions orders, I assure Members that this work will be expedited and an amendment will be prepared as a matter of urgency. On that basis, I hope that the House will allow the order to go through.

Legal Aid

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Thursday 7th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I will certainly take back the points raised by the noble Lord on child cases. As far as possible, our intention is that, where children are involved, legal aid will still be provided.

On the broader point of impact, it is partly our intention to divert family and welfare cases away from outright litigation towards mediation and less confrontational ways of settling disputes. That may—and, we hope, will—change the pattern of demand in this area. That is the basis on which the Government are bringing forward their proposals. However, on the issues raised by the noble Lord, I will come back to him.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

Does the Minister agree that applications for legal aid in exceptional circumstances are likely to increase considerably? How does he propose to handle it? Does he not think that a court would be better able to assess exceptional circumstances than a Minister and his civil servants?

[Lord McNally]

It is an interesting idea. As this legislation goes through both Houses, I am sure that suggestions of that kind will be made. At the moment, our proposal is that this matter will be in the hands of Ministers.

Land Registration (Network Access) (Amendment) Rules 2011

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Tuesday 5th July 2011 Grand Committee

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, beat me to the punch by whispering across the point that I was going to make. Looking at her sitting in solitary splendour, I am reminded of the advice that you face your opponents but your enemies are behind you.

The rules before us today amend the Land Registration (Network Access) Rules 2008, which make provision about network access agreements. These are agreements with the Chief Land Registrar conferring authority to have access to the Land Registry’s electronic network on a person who is not a member of the Land Registry.

The purpose of these draft rules is to ensure that the criteria that applicants for a network access agreement must meet are consistent with the terms of the Legal Services Act 2007, which makes provision for the regulation of persons who carry on certain legal activities.

It may be helpful if I say something about land registration legislation and the Legal Services Act before considering these rules in more detail. The Land Registration Act 2002 enables the Chief Land Registrar to set up a land registry network to be used for electronic conveyancing. It provides that a person who is not a member of the Land Registry staff may have access to the network only if authorised by a network access agreement entered into with the Chief Land Registrar. The Land Registration (Network Access) Rules 2008 provide the criteria to be met by an applicant for a network access agreement, and also some of the terms that a network access agreement must contain. A conveyancer with a network access agreement can make electronic applications to the Land Registry that may result in a change to the register of land.

The Legal Services Act 2007 regulates the provision of legal services in England and Wales. Among its provisions, it sets out which legal activities are “reserved”, and who can carry out those reserved legal activities. One category of reserved legal activity is “reserved instrument activity”, which includes preparing certain conveyancing documents for the purposes of the Land Registration Act 2002, and making applications or lodging documents for registration with the Land Registry. Under the Legal Services Act, only an “authorised person” is allowed to carry out a reserved legal activity. “Person” includes a body of persons. The authorised person may be authorised to carry out all or only some of the reserved legal activities. It is a criminal offence to carry on a reserved legal activity if a person is not authorised to do so.

Much of the Legal Services Act 2007 came into force in 2010. Later this year, it is expected that further sections of the Act will come into force that will allow for the introduction of licensed bodies, which are commonly referred to as alternative business structures. The purpose is to relax the statutory and regulatory limitations on the ownership and management of legal practices to allow for greater flexibility and choice in the provision of legal services.

The Land Registration (Network Access) Rules 2008 came into force before the changes made by the Legal Services Act. At that time, the provision of reserved legal activities was subject to the provisions of the Solicitors Act 1974 and various other enactments. The network access rules were drafted to be consistent with those enactments. At that time, the regulation of legal services was based around the regulation of individual solicitors, barristers, licensed conveyancers and notaries. Under the Legal Services Act, there is a move towards the regulation of bodies that deliver legal services.

Now that the Legal Services Act has made changes to the regulation of legal services, and more changes are on their way with the introduction of alternative business structures, it is necessary to amend the network access rules for consistency with the new legislation. It would be inappropriate for the Chief Land Registrar to enter into a network access agreement with a person or body that was not authorised under the Legal Services Act to undertake land registration activities.

The rules before us today amend the criteria to be met by applicants for a network access agreement to bring them into line with the Legal Services Act and to make adjustments to take account of alternative business structures. These rules will allow for a person or body that is authorised under the Legal Services Act to carry on legal activities relating to land registration, or a person or body that employs such an authorised person who will undertake those activities or direct and supervise them, to enter into a network access agreement, provided that they also meet other criteria set out in the network access rules. One class of body that can currently enter into a network access agreement will be unaffected—a government department. This is because of the exemption for public officers from the provisions of the Legal Services Act.

In addition, amendments have been made to the definition of “intervention”, and “disciplinary proceedings” to include reference to licensing authorities which will regulate alternative business structures; and the insurance criterion has been amended so that the words correspond with wording used in the Legal Services Act.

Members of the Committee will see that the amendments will come into force on the day that Section 71 of the Legal Services Act comes into force. That section will allow for the commencement of alternative business structures. In drawing up the amendments, the Government intended to ensure a level playing field for all legal service providers—whether traditional conveyancing practices or alternative business structures. This reflects the policy behind the Legal Services Act.

The Lord Chancellor must consult such persons as he considers appropriate before making rules relating to access to the Land Registry’s electronic network. An impact assessment was also undertaken. The majority of those who responded to the consultation and impact assessment supported the proposals.

In summary, the rules update the criteria for entitlement to a network access agreement with the Chief Land Registrar, reflecting provisions already made by the Legal Services Act. I therefore commend these draft rules to the Committee.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, the important point that should be appreciated—I am sure that it is—is that when a title is registered, it is an absolute title. It can be obtained by fraud or by any other means, but it is an absolute title, once registration has been granted. That means that the person who owns that title can sell it on and deal with it as if it were his own. Any issue as to how that registration has been obtained is left for litigation. Therefore, it is crucial that the integrity of the register is maintained. So much depends on trust. We trust that the people who make these applications will do so honestly, with proper consideration of all the issues and in the interests of their clients. That is why we have all these rules, which endeavour to ensure that the very competent staff of the Land Registry are not deceived by applications from outside.

What is this all about? It brings the alternative business structures system into the position of being an authorised applicant to deal with the Land Registry. I have expressed my views on these alternative business structures so often that I sound a little like Cassandra. However, I foresee trouble. If there is trouble in the future, it is not the lawyers who will suffer; they will do very well. It is the consumer and the customer who will suffer.

There is a lack of confidence in the way that this has been put forward. The summary of the impact assessment says on page 3, under the heading “Other key non-monetised benefits by ‘main affected groups’”:

“The proposals will avoid the potential costs to Land Registry customers outlined in the base case by ensuring only persons authorised to prepare and make applications relating to land registration are able to do so”.

That states the obvious; it is the position at the moment. The summary goes on:

“Land Registry customers may further benefit if the new definition of ‘conveyancer’”—

that is, these rules—

“leads to better quality conveyancing practices compared to current levels”.

Why it should lead to better conveyancing practices than the current system, under which conveyancing is carried out by qualified lawyers or managing executives, I do not know. The summary continues:

“Ensuring ABS firms fall within the definition should also lead to increased competition in the conveyancing market, which may provide efficiency benefits for society, and direct benefits for Land Registry customers in the form of lower prices and/or increased choice”.

The sort of situation that I envisage, particularly in a tight housing market, is that developers will offer a conveyancing service, or an ABS. They will have an interest in the outcome of the conveyance of their own homes and access to the registry. They may act for both parties. All the checks and balances that have developed over the years to protect the consumer and householder will be weakened.

I have had my usual rant on this subject, so I shall leave it at that. I cannot say that I welcome this measure.

Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 (Commencement No. 3) Order 2011

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Tuesday 5th July 2011 Grand Committee

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, the commercial order would implement Section 2(1)(d) of the Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007. The amendment order would add two categories of person to the list contained in Section 2(2) of the Act. These are persons owed a duty of care by virtue of either being held in the custody area of UK Border Agency customs facilities or being held in Ministry of Defence service custody premises.

The purpose of the commencement order is to implement Section 2(1)(d) of the Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007—which I shall refer to as the “custody provisions”. The amendment order will extend the provisions to facilities not already covered in the Act; namely, Ministry of Defence service custody premises and customs custody facilities which have now become the responsibility of the UK Border Agency.

Before going into the detail of the orders, I shall briefly remind Members of the Committee of the context surrounding the custody provisions. The Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 created an offence whereby an organisation could be found guilty of corporate manslaughter if the way in which its activities were managed or organised resulted in a death and amounted to a gross breach of a relevant duty of care to the deceased. The breach must be grossly negligent and a substantial part of it must have been in the way activities were managed by senior management.

The offence was created to deal with the problem of obtaining convictions of corporate bodies because of the operation of the identification principle, which required the prosecution to show that the offence was in essence committed by the “directing mind” of an organisation. This meant that, in some instances, because of the complexities of the decision-making process in big companies, it was not possible to identify a single individual—that is to say, the directing mind—with specific responsibility for the failing. The new offence allows an organisation’s liability to be assessed on a wider basis, providing a more effective means of accountability for very serious management failings across the organisation.

The majority of the Act came into force on 6 April 2008, with the exception of the custody provisions, whose implementation Parliament agreed would be delayed by three to five years. During the final stages of the Bill’s passage through Parliament, a lengthy discussion took place as to whether deaths in custody should be covered by the Act. After much debate, the then Government were finally persuaded to accept clauses that would extend the Act to the management of custody, but argued that custody providers would need time to prepare. A compromise agreement was reached to the effect that the custody provisions would be implemented between three and five years after the Act came into force. The Bill was passed on this basis. Custody providers have since indicated their readiness to implement the provisions in two reports to Parliament, published in 2008 and 2009.

The custody provisions do not create additional duties. All custody providers already owe duties of care to detainees. The commencement order makes these duties of care relevant for the purposes of the offence in the Act, which means that, once commenced, an organisation responsible for the management of custody, including a government department, could be convicted of corporate manslaughter if its management failings led to a death.

The commencement order simply illustrates the coalition Government’s long-standing commitment to commence a provision which we fought for during the passage of the Bill. We felt then, and still do now, that there is no good reason why a victim of a failing by a government department should not be afforded the same protection as the victim of a failing by a private corporation. We believe that the state has a particular responsibility to those for whom it has a duty of care, such as persons held in custody, and should lead by example. Having established that custody providers are ready to comply with the custody provisions in the Act, we are here today to debate commencement of the provisions at the earliest available opportunity.

We are here today also to debate an amendment order which brings military and customs facilities into the scope of the Act. This is an important amendment that ensures that the law will be applied consistently to all custody providers. The intention to extend the Act is nothing new; it was signalled in the annual progress report that I have already mentioned, and we have been assured by the relevant departments that the custody providers concerned are ready for implementation.

As with commencement, the question is not so much why extend but what possible reason can there be not to extend. I put it to the House that there is none. I believe that both orders constitute positive and necessary developments, and I trust that the members of this Committee will agree.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, it is helpful to put this order into some context. The corporate manslaughter provisions were considered by the Independent Advisory Panel on Deaths in Custody. When one looks at the statistics on page 9 of the report, which was a joint Ministry of Justice and Home Office report, one sees that in 1999 there were 643 deaths in state custody. That number has reduced in the past two years to 483 and 366, but that is a lot of people who have died in custody. It is important that there should be corporate responsibility, not simply for claims of negligence but for criminal claims. We are very pleased that this order is now being introduced.

I have two questions for the Minister. One relates to service custody. Do I take it that the Ministry of Defence could be criminally liable for a death in service custody abroad? The other matter that concerns me is whether the private organisations that provide prison accommodation and in particular transport come within the provisions of the Act, so that any default on their part means that they will be subject to criminal liability as well as to liability in civil law.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McNally]

I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate and for the general welcome that has been given to the orders.

On the question asked by my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford, Section 28 provides that the Act extends only to England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland; it will not apply to Ministry of Defence facilities abroad. If I am wrong about that I shall write to my noble friend. However, I believe that to be correct.

On the issue of private providers, which was referred to by both the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, and my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford, the Act applies to contracted services. Contracted service providers of custody will continue to be responsible for their actions in delivering safe custody. The Act does not place new duties on them. We will retain residual responsibilities in relation to the management and monitoring of the contractual arrangements, and they will be covered by the Act in this respect. They will have the same duties of care.

On the issue of inspection, in respect of the Border Agency customs facilities, a review relating to the care of an arrested teenager was initiated as a result of a death in custody in 2007 and is due to be finalised by the Chief Medical Officer. Once the recommendations have been finalised, the UKBA will be reviewing its processes and initiating an implementation programme.

In respect of the MoD, the Army has reviewed its need for service custody facilities and in September 2010 endorsed some recommendations, including an immediate reduction of authorised unit custodial facilities from 67 to 22.

The points made by the Committee have been extremely relevant, not least the rather chilling figures of the number of deaths in custody. Over recent years—this applies also to the record of the previous Administration—there has been a consistent attempt by government to address the problems. My noble friend Lord Thomas will agree that the bald figures cover a range of reasons for death in custody. Nevertheless, in recent years the police, prison authorities and all those who have a duty of care have made a real effort to address the reasons for deaths and to prevent them wherever possible. They have changed techniques for dealing with violent prisoners, changed the furniture in cells and limited opportunities for suicides. They have introduced a whole range of activities and initiatives to tackle the problem.

There is no doubt that the Government, as the state, freely accept in this order the responsibilities that they imposed on the private sector with the initial Act. I remember my noble friend Lord Goodhart and others pressing these matters when we were in opposition and I am pleased that we are able to bring these orders together.

Criminal justice is devolved in Northern Ireland and the local Minister and Assembly have the relevant commencement powers under the Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act, which we understand the Assembly is looking at. I am the Minister in the MoJ responsible for contact with the devolved Assemblies and Administrations and I shall make sure that our views on and experiences of this aspect are made available to our colleagues in Northern Ireland.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

In relation to private provision of prison and transport facilities, what is the relationship between those private facilities and the department? Could the department resist a charge under the Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act on the basis that the responsibility has been contracted out? My noble friend may not be able to answer straightaway, but I would be grateful if he could clarify that at some stage.

[Lord McNally]

I certainly cannot answer that directly; I will have to write. It is an interesting point. I shall not mention providers by name, but if a private prison or a private transporter of prisoners was guilty of corporate manslaughter, would the line of responsibility run back to the MoJ? I take it that that is the point. It is an interesting point. I suspect that, on the one hand, the suggestion would be that the responsibility for the corporate manslaughter would be that of the provider and that the provider would be charged; on the other hand, there is the argument that the MoJ should never have given the contract to such a body in the first place. This is what makes this job both interesting and frightening at times. I shall write to my noble friend to clarify.

Prisons: HM Young Offender Institution Feltham

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Wednesday 29th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I shall certainly do that. I have four or five pages of briefing on actions here and I shall put some of them in the Library. It is not a matter of inaction or refusal to implement; as I said in my initial reply, some of the recommendations have been bypassed by the implementation of other policies. It is certainly true that many lessons were learnt from this tragedy. Contact with the family continued, as the noble Lord said. The thrust and direction of policy that the inquiry initiated has gone on apace, in a way which, we hope, will avoid as far as humanly possible such a tragedy happening again.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, exactly what is the position with regard to overcrowding at Feltham, which is one of the reasons that lay behind the tragic events to which the Minister referred?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I am not sure that there is overcrowding, unless one is talking about the ability to provide every prisoner with a single cell. That was one of the recommendations that could not be accepted, simply because the provision of single-cell accommodation would put such pressure on capacity that it could not be delivered. Both staff training and assessment before arranging cell sharing are much more thorough than before. As I said, we hope that this will avoid the kind of tragedy that the Mubarek murder revealed.

Legal Services Act 2007 (Appeals from Licensing Authority Decisions) Order 2011

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Monday 27th June 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord McNally]

Yes, in Mandarin and with a suitable chart. We hope that the orders go some way along the line of trying to get some order into these things.

On the matter of the missing orders, they are being drafted. We are undertaking further consultation. At this stage, the draft standing order relating to the society is not finalised. Until it is, it cannot be approved to be laid before Parliament. As the order is subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, it will require parliamentary debate and approval before the order can be made. We will be back, folks.

Quickly, on the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, that again is under review. The point that was made is being taken on board. The Law Society Council will have arrangements in place to consider fitness of owners. They are set out in its licensing rules. The Law Society Council has asked for the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act to be extended. An order has been laid before the House adding the head of legal practices and head of financial administration to be covered by the law. Again, I note what has been said here. These are serious matters and areas that need to be tidied up as we go through the process of bringing the ABSs on board and getting the right lines of appeal.

I am just seeing if there is anything else that I have either not understood or not covered. A draft order will be debated in the House next week. We are aware of the additional requirements sought for owners and managers. The matter is being discussed at the moment so, again, watch this space. I thank the contributors to the debate. I hope that this has been enough clarification. If I have missed things I will write to noble Lords.

My noble friend Lord Thomas raised the point about what the solicitors did not like. The Law Society did not sign up because of a principal concern that changes were needed to the First-tier Tribunal general regulatory chamber rules to allow a general power to award costs. The LSB has asked the tribunal procedures committee to consider changes to its costs rules but, on 1 March 2011, the committee came to the preliminary view that the rules in their current form were adequate to determine whether one party or another should pay costs. The Law Society has not consented to this order. As was said, it has made provision in its proposed licensing rules for the Solicitors Disciplinary Tribunal to be the appellate body for its licensing appeals.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

Before the Minister leaves that point, will he give us an assurance that he will take on board the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, that it is quite wrong that there will be one way of appealing for ABS firms and another for Law Society-regulated firms? As she said, it is very important that there should be a common body that creates precedents on which people in future can advise and act.

[Lord McNally]

As a lay man, I was impressed that it was a consumer champion who made that point. Certainly I will take it on board. I know that in trying to get agreement one has to make sure that the profession is protected and that there are proper guarantees that these matters will not be repeatedly revisited. It is also important that, in getting through the negotiations, consideration is given to the consumer and to securing the clearest and most understandable forms of regulation. As I said when I read my brief, my heart sank a little when I saw that agreement had not been reached and that the bodies were going off in different directions. That was not the initial aim of the Act or the direction of travel that we want. Therefore, I hope that those responsible in the professions will note what has been said in this debate. I will report back to noble Lords and see whether we can help push these things in the right direction.

Co-operation in Public Protection Arrangements (UK Border Agency) Order 2011

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Monday 27th June 2011 Grand Committee

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

I apologise to the noble Baroness, Lady Gould: I was already on the next one. However, this time I cannot get anything in the wrong order because there is only one order. It adds the UK Border Agency to a list of bodies that are required to co-operate with local criminal justice agencies in each area in assessing and managing the risks posed by sexual and violent offenders. This co-operation already exists at an informal level. The order places it on a statutory basis, which should make it easier to identify, refer and manage foreign nationals in our criminal justice system.

The broad arrangements for co-operation are set out in the Criminal Justice Act 2003. Section 325(2) requires the responsible authorities in each area—the police, probation and prison services acting together—to make arrangements to assess and manage the risks posed by sexual and violent offenders. These are known as multiagency public protection arrangements—MAPPA—because the different agencies work together to protect the public. MAPPA provides a structure for identifying eligible offenders, notifying the relevant agencies, allocating offenders to various categories and levels depending on their offences and the degree of risk they pose, sharing relevant information about them and managing them through regular meetings and reviews.

Section 325(3) requires the responsible authority to co-operate with a list of other bodies specified in Section 325(6) in the task of assessment and management. It also places those bodies under a duty to co-operate with responsible authorities, including the local authority, social services, housing, education and health services, registered social landlords, youth offending teams, Jobcentre Plus and others. These agencies can expect to be notified when offenders who are relevant to them are identified. For example, if the offender is under 18, representatives from a youth offending team and local authority social services will be invited to all meetings where the management of the offender is discussed.

Those bodies are all specified in the Act. However, Section 325(7) also provides a power, subject to affirmative resolution, to amend the list of bodies with a duty to co-operate—to add to the list or remove from it. Parliament must have envisaged that circumstances might arise in which it would be beneficial to make equivalent statutory arrangements for co-operation between the responsible authority and other bodies. Those circumstances have now arisen.

The UK Border Agency is responsible, among other things, for the operation of internal immigration controls, including asylum, management of applications for further stay, and enforcement. It aims to protect the public by deporting foreign nationals who commit serious criminal offences, where legislation permits, and by actively monitoring and managing foreign national prisoners who are released into the community. Over the past few years, the UK Border Agency has been working with the criminal justice agencies in an attempt to manage foreign nationals who are MAPPA offenders more effectively. This process includes sharing information, where it is possible to do so, about developments in particular cases and developing release plans.

However, there are limits to what can be achieved by informal co-operation. Both sides agree that they could achieve more together if their co-operation were placed on a statutory footing. One of the most important benefits would be that a clear legal basis would exist for the exchange of information about foreign national MAPPA offenders. Section 325(4) of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 explicitly provides that co-operation between the responsible authority and the specified bodies with a duty to co-operate may include the exchange of information. Other potential benefits include: ensuring that valuable resources are not expended on planning for the community supervision of an offender who will be subject to automatic deportation; ensuring that the UK Border Agency can prioritise enforcement action for the most dangerous sexual and violent offenders; and improving the information flow to immigration detention centres in respect of risk management and safeguarding—for example, in order to avoid the placement of certain offenders with children and vulnerable adults at the centres.

Co-operation between the responsible authority and the UK Border Agency will be governed by a memorandum of understanding drawn up in pursuance of Section 325(5) of the Act. This will set out clearly what each is required to do. For example, the responsible authority will notify the UK Border Agency of any MAPPA meetings to discuss a foreign national offender so that the agency may attend the meeting or provide information to it. Similarly, the UK Border Agency will notify the responsible authority if the offender is released from immigration detention or removed from the UK. Training has been provided to the relevant members of staff so that they can start to co-operate more effectively, subject to both Houses approving the draft order. I beg to move.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, it is clearly sensible that the agency should be brought within the scope of the public protection arrangements. I have nothing to add to that. The most important thing is that it should legalise the passing of information between the various agencies that are concerned with these matters.

Crime: Homeowners’ Liability

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Tuesday 24th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I saw the report of that advice. All I can say is that it is an example of overcompensation. Certainly, putting wire mesh on a shed is not disproportionate. The law warns against disproportionate protection measures. The property owner has protection in law to protect their property proportionately.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

Does the Minister see any reason to vary Section 329 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, which provided that civil proceedings brought by a burglar could be brought only with the permission of the court? It is a defence for the householder to say that he believed that the claimant was about to commit an offence or that he was defending himself. Does the Minister see any reason to change that position?

[Lord McNally]

No, my Lords. I believe that the party opposite can take credit for the Criminal Justice Act 2003 because, as my noble friend said, it included a test to make it more difficult for a person who has been convicted of an imprisonable offence to make a civil claim for damages unless what they had encountered was grossly disproportionate to the circumstances. It is interesting to note that, since the introduction of Section 329, we are not aware of any claims by criminals for trespass to the person succeeding.

Courts: Super-injunctions

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Thursday 19th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

That goes to the nub of it. Quite clearly, what is of interest to the public can include areas which intrude into private life. Again, we are looking carefully at these matters. The fact that there is so much public discussion and debate means that it has been sensible to get the Master of the Rolls to look at these issues. When we have the full knowledge of his deliberations, we will make statements on steps forward.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

Will my noble friend be good enough to tell us how many super-injunctions have been issued and are extant? Hugh Tomlinson QC, the leader in privacy law, tells me that the Ministry of Justice has no idea. Perhaps the Minister would send a runner down to the Royal Courts of Justice and find out exactly how many there are. The Times says 30; other newspapers say 800.

[Lord McNally]

I have to confess that the Ministry of Justice does not have a figure on the number of super-injunctions. I understand that the Ministry of Justice statistician, a post I was not aware of—

Justice: Civil Litigation Reform

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Tuesday 29th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I will certainly not bluff the House that I am able, with no legal training, to assess the noble and learned Lord’s suggestion. These are still proposals, and his intervention will be reported back to the Lord Chancellor. If his suggestions have merit—and coming from that source, I have no doubt that they do—I am sure they will be given full consideration before we bring forward our final proposals.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, centuries of English law produced a position whereby, in civil and criminal cases, it was a principle that the lawyer should not have a personal interest in the outcome of the case. In other words, he would be paid whether he won or lost. That was mitigated to ensure that there was proper access to justice by the introduction of the legal aid scheme. It was on that principle that during the previous Government’s period we on these Benches opposed the introduction of no-win no-fee schemes.

It is interesting to look at this Statement to see what are now said to be the problems resulting from the change from the basic principle that we had had for so long. The Statement refers to,

“the perverse situation where fear of excess costs forces defendants to settle, even when they know they are in the right”.

The proposals are also said to,

“begin to restore proportion and confidence in our system of justice”.

What has happened in the mean time, over the past 10 or 12 years, is that advertising has been allowed to proliferate and non-lawyers have collected and farmed claims. By advertising, they have drawn to themselves hundreds and thousands of claims and have then farmed them out to various firms of lawyers. All these ills have done nothing to improve the lot of the claimant who has been injured or who has a grievance that he wishes to be resolved.

It is because I have such a basic objection to no-win no-fee that I cannot completely endorse these proposals, but they are undoubtedly an improvement on what has gone before and they redress some of the problems that have arisen. Success fees and insurance premiums are recoverable; that is to say that I as a claimant can insure myself against losing the case and then charge the insurance premium, which I know can be tens of thousands of pounds, to the defendant, provided that I am successful. I can do that not if the case goes to court but if the case is settled at some stage, so the cost of litigation has been a huge problem that has faced defendants and insurance companies.

Another problem that arises because of that is that a plaintiff has very little interest in the amount of costs in the case. He is insured against paying the defendant’s costs, he will recover if he wins and if he loses, and he has none of his own costs to pay. It has been very damaging to permit no-win no-fee cases to go in the way that they have. The proposal to ensure that claimants have an interest in the result and are restrained from allowing their lawyers to run up massive bills of cost, as proposed, is something that I, unlike the noble Lord, Lord Bach, think is a way forward.

The second part of the Statement dealing with the consultation paper on the improvement and efficient delivery of civil justice is also to be welcomed. The proposals to give greater jurisdiction to small value cases, for small claims cases to be heard through the simple small claims process and to increase the threshold for going to the High Court are all to be welcomed.

Data Protection (Subject Access Modification) (Social Work) (Amendment) Order 2011

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Wednesday 23rd March 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord McNally]

The draft order before us today amends an order made in 2000 with regard to the data protection rights of individuals in the context of social work. Specifically, the order brings the data protection obligations of the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service in Wales—CAFCASS Cymru—into line with those of its counterparts in England.

The purpose of the draft order is to ensure that officers of CAFCASS Cymru are exempted from the requirement to disclose personal data to an individual—known as a “data subject” in the Data Protection Act 1998—when they consider that to do so would be likely to prejudice the conduct of social work by causing serious mental or physical harm to the individual or a third party. As a result of an order made in 2005, CAFCASS Cymru’s counterparts in England can already use this partial exemption when replying to requests for personal data made under Section 7 of the Data Protection Act 1998. In 2000, when the DPA came into force, the Government brought forward such an exemption by order, which could be relied upon where the disclosure of the information would prejudice the carrying out of social work by causing harm to an individual or a third party.

I should explain that, even without this exemption, in certain situations data controllers may be able to rely on the principle that information shared with a social worker was given in confidence. Therefore, it might not be fair, or even lawful, to release the information, as to do so would be in contravention of the first data protection principle in the DPA. However, the social work exemption in the 2000 order gave a strong, certain and very explicit legal basis to withhold information and ensure that social work is not prejudiced. The schedule to the 2000 order listed those organisations and functions to which the exemption could be applied. This important exemption—the subject of our debate today—ensures that individuals’ rights to see their personal data do not inadvertently prevent social work from being carried out effectively.

With that background in mind, I will turn to the reason for the order before us today. In 2005 an order was approved by Parliament which added certain functions of CAFCASS in addition to those in the 2000 order. The 2005 order allowed CAFCASS to apply the social work exemption in appropriate cases. As Members will know, CAFCASS works with children and their families who are involved in family proceedings, and advises the courts on what it considers to be in the child’s best interests. Matters in which CAFCASS may become involved include where parents are separating or divorcing and cannot agree on arrangements for their child. The role that CAFCASS officers perform means that they routinely process information related to social work.

On 1 April 2005, the functions of CAFCASS in Wales were devolved to the Welsh Assembly, making CAFCASS in Wales—CAFCASS Cymru—a separate organisation to that of CAFCASS in England. Unfortunately, this was not taken into account at the time of the 2005 order, and therefore CAFCASS Cymru has not been able to apply this exemption, although its counterpart in England has. As a result, the intention behind the 2005 order that this exemption should apply across England and Wales, as agreed by Parliament, has not been fulfilled. It is important that this inconsistency in the subject access regime between England and Wales is rectified and that CAFCASS Cymru is able to use this exemption as was originally intended.

CAFCASS Cymru has told us that, between 2007 and 2009, there were 23 cases where it would have considered using this exemption, had it been available. In these cases, CAFCASS Cymru relied on the principle, mentioned at the start of my remarks, that there would have been a reasonable expectation that information that children share with a family court adviser would remain confidential and therefore would not disclose the information because it could give rise to an actionable breach of confidence. However, this approach has not been tested, either by the courts or by the Information Commissioner. The extension of this exemption to cover CAFCASS Cymru will provide it with parity and will ensure a stronger, more certain and explicit legal basis to withhold information if CAFCASS Cymru considered that this would be likely to prejudice the carrying out of social work, by causing serious harm to the physical or mental health of a child.

I want to emphasise here that the Government take the issue of individuals’ rights to access their personal data very seriously. Just as we have made clear our commitment to transparency in terms of public data and official information, we are also committed to upholding people’s rights to see what information is being processed about them in both public and private sectors. Indeed, the Ministry of Justice’s recent call for evidence sought views on how the current subject access regime is working. Responses to this confirmed that individuals see this as an important right and that data controllers by and large take their responsibilities in this area seriously. But there can be no doubt that in certain, specific circumstances, such as those we are considering today, releasing information may not be in the interest of an individual, or indeed of others, including the children of the individual concerned, or those involved in protecting them.

I should make clear to noble Lords that a right of appeal remains for those individuals who believe that a subject access request has not been complied with fully. As with any subject access request, there is a right of appeal through the courts under Section 7(9) of the Data Protection Act. Alternatively, individuals may approach the Information Commissioner, who may investigate whether the data controller has complied with the obligations under the Act. In addition, this order, should it be agreed, will add employees and contractors of CAFCASS Cymru, acting in their professional capacity, to the list of “relevant persons” in the 2000 social work order, as is the case with CAFCASS in England.

Section 7 of the Data Protection Act acknowledges that there may be times when the personal data of another person may be released as the result of a subject access request. In most circumstances, the data controller will need to seek the consent of that other person or assess the reasonableness of disclosure before giving out the data. However, the personal data of a “relevant person”, as defined by the 2000 order, is not subject to these conditions of consent or reasonableness. This means that CAFCASS Cymru must disclose personal data given by its employees in the course of their professional duties if this is required to provide the data subject with personal data under the terms of a subject access request. Consent and the reasonableness test are not factors in the disclosure.

A concern was raised in another place about how relevant persons will be protected from harm by having to release their personal data to others. It is important to remember that this draft order would allow CAFCASS Cymru to withhold information if social work was to be prejudiced by causing harm to the individual or any third party. This could include those who work for CAFCASS Cymru. CAFCASS in England, which must already adhere to this when replying to subject access requests, has told us that it is not aware of any harm caused to employees. In all cases so far it is only the name of the employee that has been released and it is highly unlikely that the individual making the request will not already know the name of that person—most likely to be a social worker—who has been dealing with their case. As such, it would probably raise more suspicion if the name of the employee in question was redacted and therefore the name is almost always released. Officials in CAFCASS Cymru have said that their approach would be similar to that of CAFCASS in England. Again, this provision would bring CAFCASS Cymru into line with CAFCASS in England to ensure consistency in the two bodies' approach to releasing personal data.

The principles about the need to maintain a strong subject access regime while protecting individuals were agreed by all parties in 2005 and these principles still hold firm. In any case, there is no reason why they should apply in England but not in Wales. Including CAFCASS Cymru in the list of organisations able to apply the exemption will not only protect individuals and ensure that social work can be carried out effectively; it will also ensure coherence and consistency between the organisations in England and Wales, and correct the error made in 2005. I therefore commend this draft order to the Committee.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, I would not necessarily agree to the principle that something that applies in England must necessarily apply in Wales. That is the whole point of devolution, which I am sure that the noble Lord has foremost in his mind. However, I support this provision.

The noble Lord referred to the call for evidence. He made a statement in July 2010 about the call for evidence, which he said was to be,

“assessed and used to inform the UK’s position in negotiations on a new EU instrument for data protection, which are expected to begin in early 2011”.

He also said that there would be a,

“Post-Implementation Review of the DPA, with a view to publishing a full impact assessment by the end of the year”.

Have those time limits been complied with? I was not able to find anything to indicate that they had. What is the position in relation to the negotiations with the EU for a new instrument in this field?

EU: Police and Justice

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Tuesday 8th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

The answer to the last question is the former. The length and complexity of the noble Lord’s supplementary questions indicate why the Government are sensibly taking great care to study and consult on these matters, particularly with the committees of both this House and another place, and as he rightly said, my right honourable friend David Lidington has made it clear in a Statement to the House that when the decision is to be made on these matters, there will be a full debate and vote in both Houses of Parliament.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

Does not my noble friend agree that to scrap the co-operation in surveillance, pursuit, arrest and extradition that exists with European countries in areas such as drugs, international fraud and trafficking would be simply daft?

[Lord McNally]

I will have to check carefully whether “daft” is a parliamentary term, but I would have thought that such a course of action would be somewhere in that range of description.

Crime: Murder

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Monday 24th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, the noble and learned Lord is referring to the Nuffield Foundation report Public Opinion and Sentencing for Murder. I know that because he was generous enough to send me the report, which, in my reading, shows that there is a good deal of public confusion about the law of murder. Perhaps there is a need for greater education and explanation. The blunt fact is that the Government considered these and other proposals in the recent, or not so recent, Law Commission report on the matter. However, they came to the conclusion that the time was not right to take forward such a substantial reform of our criminal law.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

The noble Lord has referred to public confusion about the law of murder. Does he accept that a thoroughgoing review and reform of the law of murder, including the abolition of the compulsory, mandatory life sentence, would be a jewel in the crown of the coalition Government if it could be achieved in the next five years?

[Lord McNally]

I hear what my noble friend says and I am sure that many in the Government will concur with that assessment. Proposals to act now were given consideration, but we came to the conclusion that the time was not right to take forward such a substantial reform of our criminal law.

Bill of Rights

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Monday 24th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

The noble Lord is quite right. There is a commitment but, having looked at this matter, we feel that the Good Friday agreement commitment should be honoured separately and not as part of this exercise.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

In his first Answer, the noble Lord referred to building on the European Convention on Human Rights. Will he assure us that if there is to be a replacement of the European convention by a British human rights Act, it will contain all those provisions and additional provisions as we see necessary for the circumstances in this country?

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Wednesday 19th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

Does the Minister agree that if the noble Lord, Lord Knight, is right, the absence of a vote is not the only problem that prisoners have to face? If they do not belong to any particular constituency, they have no parliamentary representation and nobody who can act on their behalf in dealing with the Government.

[Lord McNally]

Each Member has to make their own decision. It is interesting, though, going back to another issue—

Legal Aid: Family Courts

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Monday 13th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, that is certainly the intention. What we are trying to do is to get a change in culture so that people in family cases do not automatically go to law. Some of the points that the noble Baroness raised are worth examining. For example, in a case where there is not a balance of resources, the courts will be able to ask the wealthier of the two parties to deposit resources, which will mean a greater equality in advice. The basic thing about our reforms is that we do not believe that family justice is best carried out by state-funded litigation.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

Is my noble friend aware of the concern of the family Bar that the cuts in legal aid will disproportionately affect ethnic minority lawyers with the result that, in 10 or 20 years’ time, there may be a lack of diversity in judges appointed to the Family Division?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, it is difficult to assess the full impact at the moment, but it is certainly true that, in many of the firms that have been dealing with family law, ethnic minorities are better represented. However, I think that it is too early to say that the impact to which my noble friend has referred will come about.

Youth Justice Board

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Wednesday 8th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

That is extraordinary from someone who has held the position that the noble and learned Baroness has held. The straight answer is that, because the board is coming into the Ministry of Justice, the responsibility will be that of the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice. That is very clear. However, within the Ministry of Justice, we are in a transition period. We are going through this along with the Youth Justice Board, which is co-operating very effectively in the transition. When those lines of responsibility are cleared and when the legislation has cleared Parliament, we will be able to go ahead with implementation and those lines will be clear. As I said, I acknowledge that the system of youth justice has moved from being a Cinderella organisation in the 1990s to one that has been extremely effective, but we are now removing that layer of national control to ensure that there is proper, local responsibility by devolving responsibility to youth offending teams. That was also part of the initial plans that the previous Government put in place.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

Will my noble friend consider, in the medium term, investigating the way that youth justice operates and replacing youth courts with something along the lines of the children’s panels that operate very successfully in Scotland, in which the magistrates sit down together with parents and social workers to try to work out the proper solution for the individual offender?

[Lord McNally]

That is the kind of constructive suggestion that I hope will come forward from the Green Paper that my department published yesterday. The Green Paper shows that we have been successful in establishing youth justice as a priority in our system, as the paper has a distinct chapter on youth justice. There is an invitation to all parts of this House—and indeed to all bodies—to feed in constructive views. This is not the end of the youth justice story. The Youth Justice Board has been a successful chapter and we intend to carry on with that work. We will study ideas that come from the Scottish and Northern Irish systems.

Rehabilitation and Sentencing

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Tuesday 7th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, from these Benches, I welcome wholeheartedly the change in emphasis from warehousing prisoners to rehabilitation. I am grateful to my noble friend for putting forward these proposals in the way that he has. I am disappointed that the indeterminate sentence is not to be abolished completely, but I am encouraged by seeing that it is to be restricted. It has been used far too greatly without the proper resources behind it to enable the 6,000 people currently held on these sentences to earn their release.

There is one matter that I shall raise with the Minister to have his response. Has he considered veterans’ courts? They have been set up in the United States for a period of two years to deal with the specific problems of those who have served their country but have found themselves in prison because of the experiences that they have undergone. Proportionately fewer veterans go to prison, but of those a greater proportion are in prison for sex and violence offences. Their needs must be addressed in a special way, as they have been in the United States. Perhaps I may commend to my noble friend the report of the Howard League, Leave No Veteran Behind, which was published last month, to make sure that those who have served their country are properly attended to by the system.

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I take on board what my noble friend said about IPP. It is true that there has been an increasing focus and an increasing public concern about the number of our veterans who seem to end up in our criminal justice system. I have not looked at the American example to which he referred, but that is exactly the kind of constructive suggestion that we hope this Green Paper will bring forward. My department is in contact with the Ministry of Defence and the Royal British Legion about these issues. I hope that we can take forward measures to help veterans who find themselves on the wrong side of the law or in prison. The Royal British Legion already has a system of visiting, advising and counselling for veterans who find themselves in this situation. We have got to give this priority and I assure my noble friend that we will.

Legal Aid

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Monday 29th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I think the noble Lord gives the clue to his question. As he said very honestly in his response to the original Statement a couple of weeks ago, when in government, the Opposition were planning cuts in legal aid. Whenever one makes cuts, one has to draw the line somewhere, and the Opposition are rightly leaping to the defence of people on the wrong side of that line. We have made a decision in terms of making savings in the legal aid budget and we have done so in a way that we believe targets help to the most vulnerable.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, over the past year, more than 300 specialist citizens advice bureaux caseworkers have dealt with 40,000 welfare benefit cases, 60,000 debt cases, 9,000 housing cases and 3,000 employment cases. These specialist CAB caseworkers have been paid for using legal aid funding. Will this continue?

[Lord McNally]

No, my Lords, but what is clear is that the citizens advice bureaux provide advice. The problem that we faced—and the previous Administration faced it too—is that legal aid is being used to cover a wider range of advice and help which can be better funded and supported in other ways. My honourable friend Jonathan Djanogly is having meetings with representatives of Citizens Advice in the next week. We will be looking at ways of helping citizens advice bureaux and other non-legal providers of advice.

Coroners and Justice Act 2009

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Wednesday 24th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right. We are not taking forward Section 51 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009. On military inquests, exceptional funding is almost invariably provided on the basis of a recommendation by the Legal Services Commission. I do not think that there is any question of such funding not being available.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

Is it the intention of the Minister or of the Government not to allow legal aid for the families of those who die in custody? If that is the case, will the Minister give an undertaking that neither the Prison Service nor the police will be represented by counsel and solicitors in such inquests?

[Lord McNally]

As far as I understand it, for deaths in custody, legal aid is automatic.

Legal Aid and Civil Costs Reform

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Monday 15th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, I cannot welcome the Statement, but I welcome the fact that the Minister has said that not principle but finance has caused the reductions that we have seen. When I read the Statement, I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Bach, could easily have issued a similar Statement in the previous Government. No doubt that is why his criticisms were so muted.

This is a considerable challenge to the legal world. Here I declare an interest as a practising criminal Silk, paid very often by legal aid. The suggested reforms set out in the Green Papers require very considerable attention from both the criminal Bar and the family Bar. It is the latter that will really suffer under the provisions that are being put forward.

I ask the Minister about the suggestion that there will be a new exceptional funding scheme for excluded cases. I had a number of discussions with the noble Lord, Lord Bach, when he was in the previous Government, on that very issue. Its importance is that it is wrong for an individual to be in a court, tribunal or inquest and to find himself facing a state-funded organisation such as the Army or the Air Force, or a well funded public company, when an allegation of negligence has arisen. The previous provisions for an exceptional funding scheme were largely concerned with inquests. The noble Lord, Lord Bach, will recall that it was not easy through that mechanism to obtain proper funding for families in distress who faced paid advocates at a very high level who were trying to make sure that their clients were not accused of any negligence. What is the new exceptional funding scheme? Will the mechanisms be improved? Will they be more apparent so that people understand how to obtain exceptional funding in the future? That is a very important issue and I hope that the Minister will be able to respond.

[Lord McNally]

I thank my noble friend. His question gives me the opportunity to mention a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Bach, to which I did not respond. If not exactly ring-fenced, criminal legal aid is more protected because we take the view that when people are on trial for a criminal offence, it is important that they have access to justice and legal aid. However, that does not mean making a choice between criminal and civil cases, other than that, in terms of access to justice, a criminal charge is more serious.

The exceptional funding scheme will go wider than assistance for inquests, and it will indeed be available for those who may find themselves out of scope in these decisions but who have an exceptional case to make. I note what my noble friend says. We are well aware that we are making tough decisions that are needed to ensure access to public funding in cases that really require it and in protecting the most vulnerable in our society, as well as encouraging the efficient performance of our justice system. As we have made absolutely clear, those decisions are motivated partly by economic circumstances but also by a view that the legal aid system, as the noble Lord, Lord Bach, acknowledges, needs to be recalibrated and rebalanced, and that is what we have tried to do.

Prisons: Population

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Wednesday 27th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, the recommendation of the Corston report in 2007 was that female prisons should be replaced by,

“suitable, geographically dispersed, small, multi-functional custodial centres”.

That recommendation was rejected by the previous Government in August 2008. Will the Green Paper put that forward again for consideration?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Corston, and the contribution she made to the discussion on women in prison. Four thousand women in custody is far, far too many, and we are developing a strategy which will ensure that the women’s estate has custodial and community settings, is fit for purpose and meets the needs of women offenders. However, I have to be frank with my noble friend that at this point in time we face the same problem as the previous Administration in providing the kind of small multifunctional custodial centres which the noble Baroness recommended.

Supreme Court: Retirement Age

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Monday 12th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I treat that intervention with all the respect it deserves—and in that I do not make a joke

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

The Minister will know that there is certain angst that Supreme Court Justices no longer get a peerage. Will they get an automatic peerage on retirement at 70, or will it depend on performance in the eye of the Government of the day?

[Lord McNally]

That is another matter which is under review and discussion. Arguments are being made both ways about how, when or if a Supreme Court Justice should get a peerage.

Law Reform: Murder

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Monday 12th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

It is an urgent priority.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

The Minister will recall that the piecemeal reform of the law of provocation carried out by the previous Government was described by the Law Commission as “bizarre”. Will he assure us that if there is a reform of the law of murder, it will be done as a whole?

Immigration: Refugee and Migrant Justice

Debate between Lord McNally and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Monday 28th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, the UK Border Agency has been asked to treat RMJ clients with common sense and to allow time during this period of adjustment. Therefore, according to my briefing, the right reverend Prelate’s first assertion is not true.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords—