Inquiries into Fatal Accidents and Sudden Deaths etc. (Scotland) Act 2016 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2016
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Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)
My Lords, I add my condolences to those of the Minister and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope.
I welcome the proposed changes and the opportunity taken in the Section 104 order to extend the categories where a mandatory fatal accident inquiry is carried out. The Minister will be aware that there has been concern for some time because the bodies of service personnel who are killed not in the circumstances he described but in foreign parts are generally repatriated to England, and therefore the jurisdiction has been an English jurisdiction, albeit that the families of the servicemen involved may well be in Scotland. Concern has been expressed about this and I know that efforts have been made to resolve it. I have lost track of whether any progress has been made. Will the Minister take this opportunity to indicate what the position is?
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, I add my condolences to those expressed to the family of Lance Corporal Joe Spencer. It befits this House that such condolences are offered.
I thank the Minister for the usual clarity with which he explained the order, which we welcome. The legislation makes much-needed changes to update and improve the system of FAIs. These are tragic cases and are incredibly difficult for the families affected. It is right that we should do everything we can to establish what happened to their loved one, and to make sure that lessons are learned for the future.
The changes made by the 2016 Act go some way to improve the system. The Cullen review made its recommendations seven years ago now, so it is welcome that we have reached this point of action. There has been a wait to see this system updated. This order allows the 2016 Act to be implemented in full, so we are happy to lend it our support. As has been mentioned, particularly welcome are the provisions on the death of military service personnel. This issue has been made painfully resonant in the past few weeks by the tragic death of Lance Corporal Spencer. We again send our thoughts and condolences to his family and friends.
I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, for the specific, experienced point of view he brought to this brief debate. I echo the words of the Minister that this UK Parliament stands ready, as I think it always has, to make devolution work not only in Scotland but in the other devolved Assemblies in the country.
Lord Dunlop
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate for their contributions and for their support for this order.
I very much agree with what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, said about the system in Scotland being well equipped to deal with these inquiries.
To pick up the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, the law on service personnel dying abroad has been re-enacted as Section 7 of the Inquiries into Fatal Accidents and Sudden Deaths etc. (Scotland) Act 2016. I think I am right in saying that, where a death occurs abroad and the body is repatriated, the Lord Advocate has discretion to launch an inquiry into such a death. If I have not covered his point fully, I am happy to write to him but I hope that deals with it.
The order allows for the 2016 Act to be given effect in the rest of the United Kingdom where that is required and, as has already been said, to bring the treatment of military deaths in Scotland in line with the rest of the UK. On that basis, I commend the order to the House.
Northern Ireland (Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan) Act 2016 (Independent Reporting Commission) Regulations 2016
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)
My Lords, this statutory instrument makes provision for the exercise of functions of the new Independent Reporting Commission. The commission is being established under the fresh start agreement to report on progress towards ending paramilitary activity connected with Northern Ireland.
Your Lordships will recall that the fresh start agreement included a range of measures agreed by political parties in Northern Ireland last November on ending paramilitarism and tackling organised crime. The Northern Ireland (Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan) Act provides the legislative foundations for the commission. This House debated clauses relating to the commission in April and the Bill received Royal Assent on 4 May 2016. During the passage of the Bill there were many constructive contributions from noble Lords from across the House. I welcome the opportunity for further debate tonight on the provisions set out in this statutory instrument. The debate also provides me with the opportunity to update the House on progress towards establishing the commission.
The UK Government and the Government of Ireland signed an international treaty on 13 September to establish the IRC. This confirmed the two Governments’ joint intent to ensure that future generations in Northern Ireland are not blighted by the scourge of paramilitarism. The treaty also brings to life our commitment to end paramilitary activity, which we made in last year’s fresh start agreement.
A treaty is, of course, more than words on a piece of paper and more than a legal obligation. It is also a solemn and genuine commitment between states diligently to work together in pursuit of a common goal. The common goal in establishing the IRC is to rid Northern Ireland society of the harm caused by paramilitary activity. Let me be clear: there never was any justification for paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland. There is none today and there must not be any in the future.
The treaty was laid in this House on 22 September. It will come into force when the necessary UK and Irish legislation is completed. The Irish Government intend to pass their legislation by the end of this year and the Government expect the IRC to be established early in 2017. The statutory instrument before us, which gives full effect to the treaty, is the next step in the process.
Before I turn to the specific provisions of the instrument, I remind the House of the IRC’s functions. These are: to report annually on progress towards ending paramilitary activity connected with Northern Ireland; to report on other such further occasions if jointly requested by the UK Government and the Government of Ireland; and to report on the implementation of the relevant measures of the UK and Irish Governments, and the Northern Ireland Executive, including on the Executive’s strategy to tackle paramilitary activity.
I turn now to the regulations themselves. Regulation 2(1) requires the IRC to exercise its functions with a view to supporting long-term peace and stability in society, and stable and inclusive devolved government in Northern Ireland.
Regulation 2(2) requires that, in exercising its functions, the IRC must not do anything which might have a prejudicial effect on the prosecution of crime. Your Lordships may recall that Section 2 of the Northern Ireland (Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan) Act 2016 already requires the IRC not to act in any way that might have a prejudicial effect on the prevention, investigation or detection of crime. Regulation 2(2) is necessary because Article 9(3)(c) of the treaty requires the commission not to act in a way that might have a prejudicial effect on any proceedings which have, or are likely to be, commenced in a court of law; and Article 9(3)(d) requires it not to act in a way which might have a prejudicial effect on the prevention, investigation, detection or prosecution of crime.
These requirements are already reflected in Section 2(3)(c) and (d) of the 2016 Act, with the exception that Section 2(3)(c) does not expressly require the commission to avoid acting in a way which might prejudice the prosecution of crime. The prosecution of crime could include criminal proceedings which are at too early a stage for it to be said with certainty whether proceedings are likely to be commenced. It may also cover matters related to prosecution which are not focused specifically on criminal proceedings—for example, the gathering of evidence. The purpose of Regulation 2(2) is therefore to ensure that this aspect of the treaty is given full effect in the UK.
Regulation 3(1) requires the Secretary of State to lay reports of the commission before Parliament and to arrange for them to be published. Regulation 3(2) requires the Secretary of State to lay the commission’s accounts and auditor’s reports before Parliament, and to arrange for the accounts and reports to be published.
The impact of paramilitary-style attacks and activity in Northern Ireland is all too evident. There have already been four paramilitary murders this year. This is abhorrent. We must ensure that the paramilitary label is no longer seen as a badge of honour and that paramilitary-style control, coercion and extortion of communities is stopped.
Since my appointment in July as a Minister in the Northern Ireland Office, I have made visits and met groups across Northern Ireland, and I have seen at first hand the progress and economic development being achieved. Paramilitaries are the enemies of progress and economic development in Northern Ireland. They hold back communities, deterring investment and jobs and preventing people moving forward with their lives. Tackling effectively paramilitary activity must therefore include measures to help communities challenge the control that these groups exert upon them. The reports of the new commission will play a key part in informing how we do that and ensuring that the Northern Ireland Executive are doing all they can to drive out paramilitary activity from local communities. The UK Government are committed to playing their part. We have committed £25 million over five years to support the Northern Ireland Executive’s action plan to end paramilitarism. We have committed a further £3 million to fund the work of the IRC.
It is essential, however, that the Executive’s plan is focused on delivery in areas where it is most needed and that it has both real and measurable outcomes. The Government are working with the Executive to ensure that the funding secured under fresh start is used to greatest effect.
The ultimate test of success in all our endeavours will be whether communities dealing with the malign influence of paramilitary activity experience a real, tangible and positive improvement to their lives. This will be the most important feature flowing from the Independent Reporting Commission’s work. It is right that we should all set high expectations of what we seek to achieve, because those affected by paramilitary activity deserve no less. I beg to move.
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his full explanation of the regulations before us. I thank him and his staff for keeping me fully informed on this legislation from day one. That assistance is greatly appreciated.
The Minister mentioned the paramilitaries and referred to work to remove the breeding ground for unjustified paramilitarism. That is very important. Collectively, we have made huge strides in Northern Ireland and that needs to continue. My honourable friend Vernon Coaker, former shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, is long on record as having called for a commission along the lines illustrated by the Minister. I again place on record our full support for the Government’s efforts in this field. The way in which the Government have sought to involve the Opposition and all Members in this matter indicates the bipartisan nature of attitudes towards issues in Northern Ireland.
A number of questions were asked in Committee in the Commons—I am not taking credit for them; I am just picking them up from Hansard. The questions may have been answered elsewhere by letter, but it would be useful if the Minister could either answer them now or, as did his counterpart in the other place, undertake to write. My honourable friend Stephen Pound asked whether the commission’s reports would be laid before the House and whether it would be an annual process or a one-off. He asked also what attitude the Government had to the cross-community aspect of the commission, whether there would be a deliberate effort to make it cross-community or whether any other methods were being considered. As we all know, all communities in Northern Ireland need to feel that they have a stake in whatever happens.
The Minister in the Commons indicated that he would respond in writing on a number of matters. He indicated that he was not sure whether the reports would be placed in the Library or laid before the House. He continued:
“As for sensitivities around the appointments”—
which we all understand—
“there is a detailed process for making them, and I am happy to explain that in writing”.
In the interest of clarity, will the Minister undertake to write to all noble Lords present tonight with responses to the questions asked in the Commons? Stephen Pound MP asked about the appointment of the chair of the commission. Are any proposals on record yet as to how that would be tackled? I want to make it clear that, like anyone else, I appreciate the sensitivities around these issues in Northern Ireland. I do not ask these questions to embarrass anyone or to cause difficulties for the Government, but clarity is needed and we need to know exactly how the appointments work. The Minister in the Commons, Mr Kris Hopkins, said:
“Again, I will write to the hon. Gentleman about appointments to the commission and how appointees are selected, and will give him that information in full”.—[Official Report, Commons, Delegated Legislation Committee, 2/11/16; col. 6.]
If these questions have been answered in writing by the Minister in the Commons, will the Minister repeat those letters?
Baroness Suttie (LD)
My Lords, the Liberal Democrats also welcome the regulations. I thank the Minister for his clear explanation of them to the House.
As this is my first intervention from these Benches on Northern Irish issues—I think there are a few fellow Scots around this evening—I shall keep my remarks brief, but I start by paying tribute to my noble friend Lord Alderdice both in his role as a member on the fresh start panel and in his role as spokesman from these Benches for the past six years. His level of expertise and deep understanding of the issues make him an extremely daunting act to follow.
The Independent Reporting Commission is an important part of the fresh start agreement and its role in reporting annually on progress will be vital in shining a light on continued paramilitary activity in Northern Ireland. It will also play a crucial role in reporting the progress that the Northern Ireland Executive, the UK Government and the Irish Government make in implementing measures to reduce paramilitary activity.
In a democratic society there is no place for paramilitary groups and the violence and criminal acts that they perpetrate. A huge amount of time, energy and commitment has gone into sustaining the peace process in Northern Ireland, and that support needs to continue and be enhanced as we move to the next phase, not least because of the extra pressures that the Brexit negotiations will bring. A permanently peaceful society with politically stable institutions and a strong economy in Northern Ireland are intricately linked. Strengthening the economy, tackling social exclusion, overcoming inequalities, delivering efficiency in public services and tackling violence are all essential elements in challenging the division that exists in Northern Ireland.
Bankruptcy (Scotland) Act 2016 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2016
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop)
My Lords, to summarise, the Bankruptcy (Scotland) Act 2016 consolidates bankruptcy legislation in Scotland. The Act received Royal Assent on 28 April 2016, having been passed by the Scottish Parliament. The purpose of the 2016 Act is to consolidate Scottish laws on insolvency and make bankruptcy policy more accessible, both for the money advice community and those experiencing financial difficulties. As with the order we have just discussed, if passed, this order would amend UK legislation as a consequence of the Act. The order is made under Section 104 of the Scotland Act 1998, which allows for “necessary or expedient” changes to UK legislation in consequence of an Act of the Scottish Parliament.
The Bankruptcy (Scotland) Act 1985 has been heavily amended over the years and new primary legislation has been introduced, most recently in the form of the Bankruptcy and Debt Advice (Scotland) Act 2014. Bankruptcy legislation in Scotland has been widely considered to be confusing and difficult to follow, and the need to consolidate the law has been identified. Drafting of the Bankruptcy Consolidation Bill was led by the Scottish Law Commission, which, alongside officials from the Accountant in Bankruptcy, Scotland’s insolvency service, undertook a consultation in 2011 on consolidating bankruptcy legislation before the Lord Advocate brought forward proposals for a Bill. This Scottish primary consolidation legislation therefore brings together and restates all of the Scottish bankruptcy legislation, including the elements from the 2014 Act—a move supported by the money advice and insolvency industry, as reflected in evidence to the Scottish Parliament when it passed the 2016 Act earlier this year.
Some of the provisions that the legislation consolidated must be restated in both Scots law and UK law. For example, Articles 4 and 6 of the order restate provisions on the effect of discharge from debts and on limitation of actions outside Scotland as a result of Scottish bankruptcies. Article 3 restates the current arrangements for examination, in certain Scottish bankruptcy proceedings, of persons residing in parts of the UK other than Scotland. Schedule 1 updates cross-references in statutes across the UK—for instance, to replace references to “the 1985 Act” with references to “the 2016 Act”. Lastly, Article 5 restates minor procedural provisions about powers of the Secretary of State.
The UK and Scottish Governments, Ministers and officials have worked closely together to ensure that this order makes the necessary amendments to UK legislation in consequence of the 2016 Act of the Scottish Parliament. I hope that noble Lords agree that this order is also an appropriate use of the powers in the Scotland Act and a further example of the UK Government’s commitment to work with the Scottish Government to make the devolution settlement work. I commend the order to the Committee. I beg to move.
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, again I thank the Minister for the exposition of quite a complicated order. Although no formal consultation by the Government has taken place on the order, the Scottish Law Commission consulted fully both on the draft Bill and an accompanying order under Section 104 of the 1998 Act. These are available online. The Scottish Parliament stated in guidance notes on a draft of the order provided for information with the Bill that became the 2016 Act—the consolidation Bill:
“This instrument has no impact of a regulatory nature on the private sector or civil society organisations”.
It said that no significant imposition or reduction of costs was foreseen, that there was no impact on the public sector, and the legislation would not have any significant impact on activities undertaken by small businesses. The effect of the order is purely consequential; it,
“does not create new policy or frameworks and therefore no monitoring or review of the effects of this Order are required”.
It is quite simple. It is a necessary matter, and has the support of the Opposition.
Lord Dunlop
I am very grateful to the noble Lord for his support. As he has laid out, this order is fundamentally of a technical nature, consolidating legislation rather than making any changes to policy or the devolution settlement. I therefore commend the order to the Committee.
Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Scotland) Act 2015 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2016
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Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)
My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for his careful introduction to this draft order. I should point out at the very outset that it goes without saying that I am entirely in sympathy with the aims of the Act itself and the draft order for the reasons which the noble Lord has given. The reason I have risen to my feet is to draw attention to two problems with the wording of Article 2, which deals with the detention of a “vehicle, ship or aircraft” in circumstances where a person has been arrested and there are “reasonable grounds” for thinking that it might be forfeited. The article itself is very well laid out and extremely clear in its terms, and it is only because of the clarity of the terms and the way it is laid out that two matters have come to my attention which I respectfully suggest may require further thought.
The broad structure is to identify first the power to detain in paragraph (1) of Article 2. The second is paragraph (2) of Article 2, which says that the,
“vehicle, ship or aircraft may be detained”,
until certain things have happened. It is important for the protection of the individual who owns the article in question, be it a vehicle, ship or aircraft, that the date at which the detention comes to an end—if, indeed, it is to be released from detention—is clearly identified. One has in mind, of course, Article 1 of Protocol 1 to the European Convention on Human Rights, which gives a right to the peaceful enjoyment of one’s possessions, of which one may be deprived only in the public interest and subject to conditions prescribed by law. This is fulfilling the requirement that the conditions should be prescribed by law and it is important that they should be properly set out.
If one works through Article 2(2), one sees that the detention may come to an end when a decision is taken as to whether or not to begin solemn proceedings or, if solemn proceedings are begun against a person arrested for the offence, until certain things happen. I have no complaint about sub-paragraph (a); it is sub-paragraph (b) that begins to open up some possible points of difficulty. Where solemn proceedings are begun, they may result in the acquittal of the individual, which is set out there. That indeed would be a point at which the article would be released from the detention. Heading (ii) refers to conviction and identifies correctly that the question of whether the article is released from detention will depend on whether the High Court or the sheriff, as the case may be,
“decides whether or not to order forfeiture”.
When that decision is taken, if it is not to order forfeiture, it is clear that the detention comes to an end. The problem arises when one looks at heading (iii), which uses the phrase “proceedings are otherwise concluded”. Very properly, the drafter has gone on to seek to identify the stage at which proceedings are otherwise concluded. It begins by saying:
“For the purposes of paragraph (2) … solemn proceedings begin”—
in well-understood circumstances where there is a first appearance or the indictment is served. I have no problem with that part of the article. The problems arise when looking at paragraph (3)(b), which says that,
“proceedings are taken to be otherwise concluded if … the proceedings are deserted simpliciter”.
That is a very clear point of time. When the Crown deserts proceedings simpliciter they are brought absolutely to an end, there are no further proceedings and it is perfectly proper that the article should no longer be detained. It identifies the point of time very accurately.
Under heading (ii), however, we are dealing with a different kind of desertion of proceedings, “pro loco et tempore”, which is a phrase used in the Scottish courts for the situation where the prosecutor decides that the case cannot proceed for the time being because, for example, the witness is seriously ill or absent and the Crown simply cannot lead the evidence needed to enable the proceedings to go on. The judge or the sheriff, as the case may be, has to decide whether it is proper that proceedings should be stayed temporarily for that purpose. He may refuse to do that, in which case it may be that the Crown is driven to deserting the proceedings simpliciter, but we are dealing with a situation where a decision is to accede to the Crown’s request that the proceedings be deserted “pro loco et tempore”, and,
“no further trial diet is appointed”.
The problem with that concluding phrase is that it leaves in the air the date at which one knows for certain that there will be no further trial diet. Under the Scottish system, the prosecution is entirely in the hands of the Lord Advocate. With great respect, I suggest that it might be better to clarify in some way the point of time at which one can be certain that no further trial diet will be appointed. That is frequently done by the Crown Office writing to the accused saying that it has decided to take no further proceedings. If a letter of that kind is written, it binds the Crown not to proceed any further and the date of the letter is be the date on which one knows for certain that the vehicle, ship or whatever it is should no longer be detained. The better way in which to phrase it might be for a certificate by the Lord Advocate himself or herself to be obtained which would identify his or her decision that there should be no further proceedings. That would achieve absolute clarity and ensure that the decision was ultimately taken by the law officer. Given the importance of what we are dealing with, which is really a very serious crime indeed, it would be best to obtain his or her decision that there should be no further proceedings.
The same point arises in paragraph (4), where we are dealing with three things that are added together. First,
“the indictment falls or is for any other reason not brought to trial”.
Secondly,
“the diet is not continued, adjourned or postponed”,
and, thirdly,
“no further proceedings are in contemplation”.
I do not have any problem with the first two, but with the last one, how does one know that,
“no further proceedings are in contemplation”?
Again, the suggestion is that the best way of ensuring certainty about that would be to obtain a certificate from a law officer—preferably the Lord Advocate—which would identify the decision at that level that there should be no further proceedings.
There are some situations in which a statute intervenes to say that if proceedings are not taken within a given period of time the indictment necessarily falls. In summary proceedings there is a cut-off date of, I think, six months—it may be 12 months—but when one is dealing with proceedings on indictment, as we are here, there is generally no absolute cut-off date in Scots law. I am subject to correction but I do not think that the statutes which we are dealing with as background to this order actually lay down a period of time within which the indictment must be brought. One is dealing with this problem in an area where there is no statutory backing to give a certain date at which the detention of the vehicle or whatever it is should be brought to an end, and therefore something has to be written into the order to make this clear.
I emphasise that I am not in any way raising these points to cause problems for the Minister. However, I suggest that in the interests of everybody it is better to be quite sure that one has identified correctly a cut-off date at each of the various stages with which this order is dealing. Article 2 has identified some of them perfectly correctly in accordance with Scots procedure, but in the two paragraphs that I have identified, in Article 2(3)(b)(ii) and Article 2(4)(c), I suggest that there is a lack of clarity and that it would be better for the Minister to take time and advice to see whether that clarity can be provided.
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, I will take as long as I can so that the Minister can give some attention to what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, has said. It sounds fascinatingly complicated to me, but I am sure the Minister’s mind will be applied to it. I thank the Minister for his clear exposition—notwithstanding what the noble and learned Lord said—outlining the procedures, new offences and updating of powers, particularly the co-operation between England and Wales and the fact that the order covers Northern Ireland as well. This is quite sensible co-operation.
As outlined in the Explanatory Notes, the basis of this order, and the basis of the Act passed by the Scottish Parliament, was that the Equal Opportunities Committee of the Scottish Parliament published a report of an inquiry into migration and trafficking in December 2010. That committee heard evidence of problems and issues faced by the diverse migrant communities in Scotland, as well as of the extent of trafficking of persons in Scotland and protection available to victims of trafficking. It also states that the Act makes human trafficking unwelcome—“a more hostile place” is the phrase used. The Scottish Parliament is owed a vote of thanks for turning its attention to this matter, because Scotland has a regular, steady influx of diverse immigrants into the country. I myself am the grandson of immigrants from County Antrim and County Fermanagh in Northern Ireland. This is particularly so in the west of Scotland, but the central belt as a whole has a track record of receiving migrants and assimilating them into the community. The new wave of immigrants, especially from the European Union, the Far East and Asia, may not have precipitated this, but it brings new issues and problems and new standards for assimilating communities in Scotland. The Scottish Parliament has done a terrific job, and I hope it is successful. I thank the Minister again for outlining the issues involved in this order and look forward with interest to his reply to the noble and learned Lord.
Brexit: Scotland
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Lord Dunlop
The noble Lord is absolutely right. We want to get the best possible deal for all of the UK. When he appeared before the House of Lords committee the other day, the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union said that he would look at some joint working. Each Government need a safe space in which to work out their position. That may provide some constraints to the degree of joint working, but there certainly needs to be full engagement.
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, it is of course right and proper and correct that the UK Government should consult all the devolved Governments within the United Kingdom on developments after Brexit. Does the Minister agree with the Labour Party and with me, as a Labour Party spokesperson in this Chamber, that no matter what the ramifications of Brexit are—and there will be complicated discussions—there is absolutely no justification for a divisive “indyref 2”, as it is called in Scotland?
Lord Dunlop
In a couple of days’ time we will be celebrating the second anniversary of a clear and decisive referendum in Scotland. I do not believe that the EU referendum provided a mandate for a second independence referendum. This is not about whether there could be an independence referendum but whether there should be one. The UK Government are very clear that there should not be another independence referendum—and I think that an increasing number of voices in the SNP are coming to that conclusion.
Northern Ireland (Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan) Bill
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Lord Lexden (Con)
My Lords, like all who have spoken in this very interesting and wide-ranging debate, I warmly endorse and support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice. We seem to have strayed also into Amendment 2, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and I have great sympathy with what he said about it. However, I think that this debate is primarily about Amendment 1.
We all remember the deep sense of crisis that existed last summer in Northern Ireland with regard to the extent and viciousness of paramilitary activity. It has been touched on from time to time in this debate, bringing it home to us again. The latest police figures show that nearly 100 people were injured last year as a result of paramilitary assaults or shooting incidents. The sooner the new commission is able to get to work, the better it will be. The effectiveness of its work would surely be most usefully demonstrated by regular twice-yearly reports. No one speaks with more authority on this matter than the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, who is hugely respected for the work that he did on the Independent Monitoring Commission, to which tribute has been paid today. I would like to be part of that tribute.
The Government will have noted the strength of feeling that exists and I hope they will respond in the way that all of us who have spoken in this debate would wish.
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, I welcome the contributions of all noble Lords on these amendments. I record the Labour Party’s appreciation of the Independent Reporting Commission, the creation of which is extremely important. The Labour Party also expressed that appreciation in the other place.
As regards representation, the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, echoed almost completely the view put forward by the Labour Front Bencher in the Commons, Steve Pound. The only thing that I think Steve Pound missed out was the square mileage, but he certainly referred to the saying that everybody knows one another. I have listened to many debates on representation in Northern Ireland on various bodies. With due respect to those who have far more experience than I do and who live in the place, no one has come up with a solution that is accepted by everyone. That is the difficulty we face with the representation issue. It is important that the view of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, on that issue is heard.
On the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, I make it clear that if the Government can come up with a form of words in an amendment to reflect that position, we would support it. On the other hand—there are always three hands in Northern Ireland—if that would delay the passage of the Bill in any way, we would support the Government on that.
Although the legislation refers to reporting once a year, does that preclude further reports? Can the commission of itself respond to any given situation and issue a report or carry out an investigation and comment on any incidents that arise, or is an amendment needed to enable it to do so? The legislation does not strike me as restricting the commission to producing only one report. As we all know, events can move very quickly in Northern Ireland. Therefore, I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify that the commission will be able to carry out reports as and when required.
In ending my remarks, and as I think that everything has been said, I just echo the view expressed by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, that although we know that not everybody listens to what is said in this place, there is a place for us in appealing in moderate language for cross-party and cross-community support. I value his point of view very much.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)
My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 1 and 2, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Alderdice, and Lord Empey, respectively. I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in what has been, as my noble friend Lord Lexden said, a very interesting and wide-ranging debate. My noble friend Lord Trimble raised a number of issues that go wider than the amendments. He asked, in particular, about the strategy to tackle paramilitary activity. The commission will report on measures of the three Administrations, including but not restricted to the strategy. He also mentioned issues that had been raised by the Delegated Powers Committee: the duties of the Independent Reporting Commission and the guidance the Secretary of State can issue. I have responded to the Delegated Powers Committee. My noble friend raised a number of detailed broader points and I am happy to respond to him in writing on those.
Before addressing the substance of the amendments, I will give an overview of the Independent Reporting Commission and Clause 1, to which the amendments relate. The new commission is one of a series of measures set out in November’s fresh start agreement to tackle ongoing paramilitarism. The new commission builds on the precedent set by the Independent Monitoring Commission, on which the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, gave such distinguished service as a commissioner. As the House knows, the Independent Monitoring Commission operated between 2004 and 2011, during which time it monitored activity by paramilitary groups and oversaw the implementation of security normalisation measures, which culminated in the ending of Operation Banner in July 2007. Like the Independent Monitoring Commission before it, the Independent Reporting Commission will be an international body, established through an international agreement between the UK Government and Irish Government. Its objective will be to promote progress towards ending paramilitary activity. Its functions will be to report annually on progress towards ending paramilitary activity; to report on the implementation of the measures taken by the Government, Northern Ireland Executive and Irish Government to tackle paramilitary activity, including oversight of the implementation of the Executive’s strategy to end paramilitarism; and to consult a wide range of stakeholders, including law enforcement agencies, local councils, communities and civic society organisations.
I said that the commission will report annually on progress towards ending paramilitary activity. The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, proposes that Clause 1 be amended to prescribe that the new commission must report twice annually. I have absolutely no doubt that this reflects the noble Lord’s considerable experience, as he suggested, as a member of the Independent Monitoring Commission, which reported twice annually while in operation. I am sure that all sides of the House would agree that there should be urgency in tackling paramilitary activity and establishing momentum in this process.
However, as I have outlined, the new commission, while subject to similar governance arrangements, has a different objective and functions from the IMC, as the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, recognised in his own remarks. The frequency with which it reports must necessarily take account of those different functions. This question was considered as part of the discussions that led to the fresh start agreement, where it was agreed that annual reporting would strike the best balance between ensuring regular and adequate oversight of measures taken to tackle paramilitary activity and allowing sufficient time between reports for progress to be made. Paramilitary activity has unfortunately been a scourge on Northern Ireland society for many years. The measures to be taken to tackle it, on whose impact the commission will report, will not work overnight.
An annual reporting cycle was judged most appropriate to properly measure progress towards the goal of tackling paramilitarism and offer meaningful commentary on the implementation of measures to this end. The fresh start agreement therefore gives the new commission a function to report annually on progress towards ending continued paramilitary activity connected with Northern Ireland, or on such further occasions as required.
Lord Trimble
My apologies. I hope that the microphone caught what I was saying and that the noble Lords could hear it, but I thank the noble Lord for drawing my attention to that. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, will not mind if I turn my back to him for the rest of my comments; that is no reflection on him at all.
I was saying that the 1949 Act did not change the Irish constitution, and in Irish constitutional law the name remained unchanged. There is nothing unusual about that, where common popular usage varies from the formal usage. There is a central European state that is always described incorrectly in our media as the Czech Republic. The name of the state is Czechia, but we call it the Czech Republic because we find it difficult to get our tongue around the name Czechia.
The point where we run into difficulties is that the Irish constitution was changed as a result of the agreement in 1998. What the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said about that agreement was absolutely true. But the question then is: did that constitutional change change the name of the state? I rather suspect that it did, but I would like to go and check. Perhaps I will pause at that point and leave the Minister to direct inquiries on our behalf.
Lord McAvoy
My Lords, this is an interesting debate, but I wonder—I might annoy a few people by saying this—about what the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, said about people’s perceptions and about the indication by the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, that people feel strongly about this. I always listen very carefully and closely to the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, because in his life he has experienced things which, to my mind, give him the right to speak on these issues.
I will pose a question—and maybe run for cover once I have asked it. Does this debate, with some of the things said here today, help the situation in Northern Ireland? Does it contribute to cross-community spirit? Does it allay suspicions? Or does it increase them? Clearly, in 1998 the people of the whole of the island of Ireland voted to accept the status quo, so any change must come through consent—and, as far as I am concerned, the principle of consent is a complete and utter guarantee that any change, if it ever happens, will be through consent.
Unlike the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, I managed to call on somebody to give me some advice on the current position. Article 4 of the constitution of Ireland refers to the country as “Ireland”. Legally, that is the country’s name. We cannot tell that country what to call itself. We in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland cannot dictate to somebody else what they can call themselves. To suggest that in any formal treaty or any signed agreement between our two sovereign countries we should tell the Irish Government that they should call themselves the Republic of Ireland is surprising, coming from the noble Lord, Lord Lexden.
Lord Kilclooney
I think that the noble Lord is missing the point. We are not telling the Dublin authorities what to call themselves. We are trying to get the present Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to comply with the law that we created in 1949.
Lord McAvoy
I am contributing to the length of this debate and I should not be. These are international treaties. We cannot tell somebody else how to designate themselves. So I am quite surprised at the noble Lord, Lord Lexden—although I was very impressed that the noble Lord, Lord Bew, weighed in to support him. It made me a bit wary of saying what I said—but, on the other hand, I have said it and I will leave it at that.
Lord Dunlop
My Lords, in rising to respond to this short debate, I will echo the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, in saying that when we have heard from two very eminent historians, the noble Lord, Lord Bew, and my noble friend Lord Lexden, we should tread very warily—but tread I must.
Amendment 2A relates to a number of clauses in the Bill that deal with the Independent Reporting Commission. As my noble friend Lord Lexden made clear, he raised this issue at Second Reading and I am very grateful to him for giving the House an opportunity to debate it this afternoon. My noble friend has proposed that the reference to “Ireland” in Clause 2(3)(a) should be changed to “Republic of Ireland”. I have known my noble friend for well over 30 years and know that throughout that time his interest in and commitment to Northern Ireland has been constant and steadfast—and his sense of history is unfailing. Having also worked under his tutelage, I can also personally attest to his great attention to important detail.
With regard to my noble friend’s amendment, I can confirm that it has been the practice since 2006 to refer to “Ireland” in international agreements and in UK legislation, and that the references to “Ireland” in the Bill are therefore in line with current drafting practice. Indeed, I think I am right in saying that the legislation that established the IMC in 2003 used the term “Ireland”. So the Government are confident that the 1949 Act does not require the use of the term “Republic of Ireland”.
Scotland Act 2016
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Lord Dunlop
The territorial Secretaries of State are a very powerful voice and effective representatives for the home nations of the UK at the heart of the UK Government. They should continue to be so.
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, I welcome the reiteration by the Minister of the administrative organisations and committees that have been set up to monitor how we proceed with the consequences of the Scotland Act. Before the passage of the Scotland Act, a great deal of concern was raised across the House about the implementation of devolution. Quite rightly, the process which dealt with the fiscal framework was confidential. However, would the Minister agree that some more transparency in the future deliberations of how the Scotland Act was processed would be useful?
Lord Dunlop
There are regular reports to Parliament on different aspects of the devolution settlement, and we will always look at how these can be improved. We have undertaken to make annual reports to this House and to Parliament on the general operation of the fiscal framework, and that is very positive.
Smith Commission Principles: Railway Policing
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Lord Dunlop
My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely correct that the Scottish Conservative manifesto supports the devolution of BTP functions in Scotland, as do all the parties that signed up to the Smith agreement. The principle of devolution is that the Scottish Government should be held accountable by the people who elect them, and I assure the noble Lord that the Scottish Conservatives and their leader, Ruth Davidson, will be very vigorous indeed in holding the Scottish Government to account for their decisions on the BTP in Scotland. To take the other aspect of the noble Lord’s question, if the Scottish Government decide to proceed with plans to integrate BTP functions within Police Scotland, the UK Government will of course work very closely with the Scottish Government to put in place robust operational arrangements to ensure that there is no detriment to any part of the United Kingdom.
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, at the Report stage of the Scotland Bill the Minister indicated that a senior-level joint programme board to lead and oversee the work to integrate the British Transport Police in Scotland into Police Scotland had been established by the two Governments and that it includes two representatives of the two police authorities. The Minister also indicated that it would report to the UK Parliament about progress and with its implementation proposals. Does the Minister agree that that will give this House the chance to monitor the principle of no detriment?
Lord Dunlop
The noble Lord is absolutely correct. A joint programme board has been established and it includes representatives from the two Governments, the British Transport Police Authority and the Scottish Police Authority. As I said on Report, I am very happy to share with the House the terms of reference of that joint programme board and to do so soon after the Scottish elections have concluded on 5 May. I also renew the commitment to update the House in detail on the implementation plans once the Scottish Government have finalised their operational model, which, although it is in the gift of the Scottish Government, I anticipate will be in the late autumn. That will, I think, give the House the opportunity to monitor progress.
Northern Ireland (Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan) Bill
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Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, I join all noble Lords who have spoken tonight in paying tribute and compliments to the Minister for his contribution over this whole period. To my mind, it has been a model of involvement through legislation which can be quite contentious; nevertheless, it is taken against a background of consensus in the political system here. We have no hesitation in continuing our policy of bipartisanship and consent in all matters relating to Northern Ireland, and the Minister has played a magnificent part in bringing about this situation so far.
I also thank and pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Murphy of Torfaen. He is a long-standing friend and colleague, and it is an honour to have him here as my minder for the rest of the evening. My noble friend works in a quiet but extremely effective way.
I would also like to pay tribute to every contribution made here tonight. I feel that this debate deserves a wider audience because of the experience and ability here; the wise words and experiences discussed have been terrific. I think that a video should be made of the debate and displayed as often as possible.
I look forward to discussing with the Minister, and, indeed, all Members of this House, this legislation, which represents an important and positive step forward for Northern Ireland. The Bill delivers some of the key elements of last November’s fresh start agreement and the 2014 Stormont House agreement. These agreements brought to an end the financial and political impasse in Northern Ireland which had threatened the devolved institutions and exposed us to the very real possibility of a return to direct rule—the “abyss” that the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, mentioned. This would, of course, have been disastrous, especially when we consider the enormous progress that has been made in the recent past. Therefore, we warmly welcome the Bill.
Before we turn to the detail of the clauses, it is worth reflecting on the events of the past 12 months and what has transpired in order to get us to where we are today. The murders of Gerard Davison and Kevin McGuigan in the summer and the budgetary stalemate over welfare led to a political crisis that required skill, commitment and determination from everyone to get an agreement, break the deadlock and thereby allow progress to be made. We have no hesitation in saying that all those involved—the Secretary of State and her Ministers, including the noble Lord, Lord Dunlop, all the parties in Northern Ireland and the Government of the Republic of Ireland—deserve huge credit for achieving the fresh start agreement, which helped prevent the collapse of devolution. It is a real testament to the incredible progress that has been made that we are here debating this Bill today.
I recognise that there was huge disappointment that there is, as yet, no agreement on how to deal with the past. If anybody needs a lesson on how to use a deep involvement in reconciliation while still concentrating on looking forward, the speech of the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, is an example of that which is worth quoting. His experience and counsel are certainly worth listening to on all sides of this House and in the Province itself. I also took heart from the debates in the other place. In spite of the regret that legacy issues were not included in the Bill, there was a real sense of optimism about the future and an unwavering commitment from everyone who took part in those discussions to rid Northern Ireland of all forms of paramilitary activity.
Nobody in this House needs convincing that we need a legacy strategy to cope with the hurt, the anger and the deep memories of people who have suffered throughout the years in Northern Ireland. This Bill gives Northern Ireland the tools to work towards this commitment. We recognise that huge progress has been made when it comes to legacy issues, so we should not be too pessimistic. But in the weeks and months ahead, it is important that this progress is built on, while of course recognising the challenges and difficulties that remain. Among those difficulties are the incidents mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, who outlined the events that have taken place which could put a block on things.
The publication of the draft treaty on the Independent Commission on Information Retrieval was welcome. It showed not only the direction of travel but also the achievements being made in the talks. At the centre of these talks must be victim and survivor involvement and engagement—we all know that that is key. As the talks progress, it is vital that victims continue to be put at the forefront of these discussions so as to ensure that they are at the heart of any future agreement.
I have tried on occasions to imagine myself in the position of having lost a member of my family and how I would feel if I were in Northern Ireland and something like that had happened. I recognise clearly that there has to be a special process to bring closure—I know that it can be a horrible phrase at times—to the continual, everyday bearing of grudges and hatred. Such feelings are perfectly understandable—I do not criticise anybody—but that is a measure of what we have to do to give the survivors and victims some peace.
Recent allegations with respect to various atrocities of the past demonstrate more than ever the need for a process to be agreed. Victims must not feel that they are locked out of any progress, which is why we continue to urge the Government to be as transparent as possible, even where difficultly remains, and to continue to seek agreement.
Given that legacy issues are not included in the Bill, there is a particular need to consider the resources of the PSNI and the Coroners Service for Northern Ireland to support investigations and to speed up the inquests that they continue to be required to do. Insufficient resources will lead to further delays for victims, which I am sure everyone recognises is unacceptable.
In the other place, my honourable friend the shadow Secretary of State Vernon Coaker suggested that the Government release some of the £150 million fund which the Treasury will make available for legacy projects for the specific purpose of supporting the PSNI and Coroners Service in this interim period. In response, the Parliamentary Under- Secretary of State, Ben Wallace, stated:
“We cannot just release the money; we need all the actors on the stage to produce the solution. We need the victims, the PSNI, the courts, the Lord Chief Justice and the Executive to support the solution”.—[Official Report, Commons, 22/2/16; col. 113.]
Can the Minister say whether anything specific has happened on that subject since that statement in the other place?
There is no question that we completely support the need for agreement from across all sections, civil and political, in Northern Ireland on legacy issues, but what does this mean for the PSNI and the Coroners Service here and now? How do the Government intend to support their work while discussions as to how best to implement the legacy programme remain ongoing? The Secretary of State indicated that she was listening to these concerns, particularly relating to inquests, when she said:
“If a credible reform package for inquests is put together, we will of course take very seriously any request for funds to support it”.—[Official Report, Commons, 22/2/16; col. 26.]
Can the Minister indicate whether the Secretary of State has had, or intends to have, any discussions with the Northern Ireland Assembly about such a package to support the PSNI and Coroners Service?
The Bill will establish an Independent Reporting Commission to monitor progress towards ending paramilitary activity. Indeed, we all know that ending such activity is the key thread which extends throughout this legislation. The commission will be established on the basis of a joint treaty between the UK Government and the Government of the Republic of Ireland. Perhaps during later debates—there might not be enough time now for him to respond to everything—the Minister could update the House on the proposed timeline for the publication of this document.
One matter relating to the IRC which was not discussed in great detail in the other place and which your Lordships’ House might consider in Committee was the progress to be made by the commission and why this initiative will work when others have not. How will progress be judged and what will happen as a plan B if it stalls?
Related to this issue of disclosure, which I am sure Members of your Lordships’ House will want to explore further, the Bill requires the Secretary of State to provide guidance on how national security and individuals are to be protected. This guidance will be crucial if we are to ensure that the Independent Reporting Commission can carry out the work that it was designed to do. Again, any further information which the Minister can provide would be welcome.
I think it is fair to say that the issue which attracted the greatest level of debate in the other place relates to Clause 7, on the pledge of office made by Ministers, and Clause 8, on the undertaking made by Members of the Assembly. The revised pledge includes fresh obligations, and the Bill also introduces a new undertaking for MLAs, based on the same commitments, to support the rule of law and commit themselves to a peaceful pursuit of change and progress. This is, of course, welcome. There are concerns but, if we continue to work on them, they can be alleviated.
The Bill also extends the period of time available to appoint Ministers following Assembly elections. It also relates to fiscal transparency surrounding the budget process, an issue about which the noble Lord, Lord Empey, expressed concern. The intention of this is that it will help in the delivery of a stable and sustainable budget. I hope there will be time next week to go further into these details.
However, the fact that we will have the opportunity to discuss the Bill over a period reflects its importance and what it represents. This is an agreement, not a crisis, and it is important that we recognise that. That is why we will co-operate in all stages of the Bill. Members of your Lordships’ House will know that there is a tendency for Northern Ireland Bills to be dealt with in a single day when a matter requires urgent attention. While we supported an emergency procedure in respect of welfare reform, in this instance we have agreed to an expedited rather than an emergency process. I believe that will strike a tone which will be welcomed by your Lordships.
Agreeing to this timetable means that it will still be possible to secure Royal Assent before the approaching Northern Ireland elections. If a legislative consent Motion is granted—which, we understand, there is agreement for among Northern Ireland parties—the measures relating to the pledge of office, the MLA undertakings and other matters can be dealt with while ensuring that there is enough time for a broader debate about this Bill and related matters.
As I have said, we are able to discuss these issues at greater length because this is an agreement and not a crisis. That shows that we have come an incredibly long way. However, challenges still remain. The Bill is another important milestone in the journey of eradicating the paramilitary activity which is so much at the heart of tackling the issue of violence in Northern Ireland. The impact of paramilitary activity still looms over too many people in Northern Ireland. The success of the Bill, the new pledges and the Independent Reporting Commission will be judged by how far they contribute to bringing about this goal.
The Labour Party is proud of its role in supporting the Government in a genuine spirit of bipartisanship, which exists throughout the House. I hope that some of this debate can resonate in Northern Ireland.
Scotland Bill
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Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing these amendments. We particularly welcome those relating to pavement parking and recognise that the others are largely technical in nature. We are therefore more than happy to support them.
The amendments on pavement parking reflect amendments which this side of the House tabled both in the other place and in Committee in your Lordships’ House and which were welcomed honourably by the Minister. The work of the organisations, Living Streets and Guide Dogs Scotland, was invaluable and I extend my thanks to them.
I know that in the grand scheme of things the amendments might be regarded as minor, but they are important to a big section of our community. Pavement parking is dangerous for pedestrians, especially people with sight loss, parents with pushchairs, wheelchair users and other disabled people. People with sight loss are particularly affected, as they can be forced into oncoming traffic which they cannot see. A survey by Guide Dogs Scotland showed that 97% of blind or partially sighted people encounter problems with street obstructions and some 90% of them had experienced trouble with a pavement-parked car. Pavements are not designed to take the weight of vehicles, and cars cause paving to crack and tarmac to subside. This damage makes pavements uneven, creating a trip hazard for pedestrians, particularly blind and partially sighted people. I know that the cost of repairing pavements is a parochial issue, but it is a burden for local authorities, which in Scotland are under particular pressure as a result of government cuts—SNP Government cuts, I hasten to add. We are therefore glad that the Scottish Government now have the necessary legislative competence to put measures in place to prevent this happening. I repeat my thanks to the Minister and welcome the amendments.
Lord Steel of Aikwood (LD)
My Lords, before the Minister responds perhaps I could repeat a point I made in Committee about Clauses 40 to 42 and Schedule 2, and the amendments that the Minister has rightly laid before us today. I am emboldened to do so by a phone call from the noble Lord, Lord Sanderson of Bowden, who is a former constituent of mine. He wanted me to make it clear that there was never any risk of him voting for me, but on this issue we speak with one voice.
Those of us who live in the borders, whether on the Scottish or the English side, are naturally concerned about the growth of what appear to be quite minor changes in legislation concerning parking, traffic signs, speed limits, vehicle regulations and even the drink-driving laws. There is a danger that these regulations will become self-aggrandising. We have different regulations just for the sake of having different regulations. We find ourselves having to make journeys by road that cover both jurisdictions, and it is extremely confusing if there are too many regulations that differ. The point I want to put to the Minister is this. He referred several times to discussions between the Department for Transport and the Scottish Government. Can we be assured that those discussions will continue so that we can seek to minimise the differences in regulations on each side of the border?
Lord Dunlop
I thank the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, for his comments and support. This was an issue that the party opposite raised in Committee and the Government are pleased to have been able to address what has been a long-standing lack of clarity in the law. With regard to the noble Lord, Lord Steel, yes of course I can assure him that discussions will continue between the Department for Transport and the Scottish Government. A theme that has run through all our debates on this Bill is the need for close intergovernmental co-operation. That is something which I feel strongly about, given my responsibility for these matters, so anything I can do to improve those intergovernmental relations, I will certainly do.
Before we move to the final group of amendments, as we near the conclusion of the Bill I want to take this opportunity to thank noble Lords for all their work, in particular all those who have moved amendments or spoken to them, and who have taken the time to meet me and my noble and learned friend the Advocate-General to discuss their concerns. I would also like to thank the Constitution Committee, the Economic Affairs Committee and the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee for their very careful consideration of this Bill. Indeed, I thank my noble and learned friend the Advocate-General, who is no longer in his place because no doubt he is preparing for the Immigration Bill to come, and my noble friend Lord Younger of Leckie for all their support. Finally, I thank officials from across Whitehall who have provided invaluable support throughout the process. We have covered a lot of ground and many subjects, and their support is much appreciated.
Noble Lords have provided robust challenges at times; I recognise that opinions have been divided on aspects of the Bill and I respect the strong views that are sincerely held. Your Lordships’ House has fulfilled its customary role of providing a thorough and penetrating scrutiny of the legislation. I said at Second Reading that I thought it was a precondition of earning the trust of the Scottish people, after the independence referendum, that we should keep the promises that were made during that referendum. That is exactly what this Bill does, as well as making the Scottish Parliament more financially accountable. I am particularly grateful to the Front Benches opposite for their support. It recognises that the promises made during the referendum were joint ones.
There was much talk during the independence referendum of Project Fear, and I think that it has already been observed elsewhere that the fears raised by the supporters of the union have proved all too justified while the fears put about by those arguing for separation have proved to be groundless. They have proved to be groundless because we have delivered on the promises we have made. I think that we have established beyond any doubt that pulling Scotland out of the United Kingdom could never satisfy the Smith no-detriment principle, and in its heart of hearts I suspect that the leadership of the SNP knows it.
Political discourse in Scotland is already changing as a result of the Bill. Now we must move the debate on from what the powers are to how they are used. I am confident that the new Scotland Act will prove an enduring settlement, strengthening Scotland’s place within the United Kingdom.
Lord McAvoy
My Lords, I echo a lot of what the Minister said. There was a lot of contention and division in our country during the referendum following the vow, thanks to the Daily Record, and the Smith commission, about which a lot of mistrust was put about as to the final conclusions of how we would deal with it. I am proud of the part that my party and its members played in arriving at these conclusions. We have shown Scotland that the people who do not wish to separate from the rest of the United Kingdom can deliver, by all accounts, the demands and wishes of the Scottish people to have more powers for the Scottish Parliament without necessarily separating from our friends and colleagues throughout the rest of the United Kingdom.
Collectively, this House, despite some rumbustious moments, some slight scepticism and very heavy scrutiny, has fulfilled its role in passing the Bill and ensuring that it is a better Bill than when it came here. We will send it back to the other place and hopefully it will be accepted there.
Westminster as a Parliament has delivered the wishes of the Scottish people. We can regain their trust, despite the cynicism put about at the time of the referendum. Collectively—although there have been various differences, which no doubt will continue—I have no doubt that we have delivered for the people of Scotland and we can look them in the face.
Lord McAvoy
I am sure that the noble and learned Lord will recall, in speaking about the role of the United Kingdom Parliament, that my noble friend Lord McFall of Alcluith suggested that the Government should deliver annual reports to both the UK and Scottish Parliaments on the progress of the fiscal framework discussion and the devolution settlement in general. This was surely an important development.
Lord McCluskey
I shall conclude by saying that I acknowledge that that is exactly correct. It was an extremely worthwhile proposal and I am thankful that, one way or another, as the months and years pass by, we will be able to get the whole truth out about what has happened in relation to this settlement.