Northern Ireland: Political Situation

Lord McAvoy Excerpts

Tuesday 8th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, first, I thank the Government for giving us advance sight of the Secretary of State’s Statement. We in the Labour Opposition strongly support the UK and Irish Governments’ decision to convene all-party talks this week in an attempt to secure a positive way forward on the challenging issues raised by the murder of Kevin McGuigan Sr and its aftermath, together with the implementation of the Stormont House agreement.

There is no doubt that the combination of real concerns following the assessment of the chief constable of the PSNI of the status of the Provisional IRA and the failure to agree a sustainable budget poses the biggest threat to stability in Northern Ireland for many years. We must not lose sight of what has been achieved by all parties talking to each other and, like the Government, we urge all parties to seek the necessary compromises and confidence-building measures, which can avert the collapse of the institutions. The people of Northern Ireland and all sections of the community have had their faith in politicians and political institutions badly damaged by the perpetual crises of the past few years. There should be no doubt that the vast majority want to see progress and a return to a focus on issues such as jobs, education, health and opportunities for young people. It is also the case that business confidence, and therefore investment, is being put at risk by political uncertainty. Many people feel—I understand the feeling—that there is a sense of drift which needs to be tackled head-on by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. However, all parties in Northern Ireland as well must take responsibility for stepping back from the brink and finding a way forward.

I should like to put some questions to the Minister. In the aftermath of Mr McGuigan’s murder, the Secretary of State said that the Government had always been aware of the continued existence of the Provisional IRA. Can the Minister clear up exactly what was meant by that statement? Is there any evidence of activity by the Provisional IRA, or indeed any so-called loyalist paramilitary groups?

There have been suggestions to reintroduce the Independent Monitoring Commission, although I know that doubts about that have been expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice. Has an assessment been made of the feasibility and desirability of such a measure?

Precisely at what stage in this financial year will the Northern Ireland budget cease to be sustainable? In the event of this round of talks failing, are the Government actively considering emergency legislation through the House to suspend political institutions and return to direct rule?

Can the Minister provide any detail on the yesterday’s statement that the Government will now consider legislating for welfare reform and releasing funding for the Civil Service voluntary redundancy scheme, and what will be the timeline on that?

I finish by urging, along with the Government, a return to the discipline shown by all parties in Northern Ireland over the past 20 years, which has been considerable and very worth while. May we all plead for that?

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, for a number of years when I was on the IMC I focused a great deal on the monitoring of paramilitary organisations. Is the Minister aware that the balance and order of things in this Statement could potentially be misleading? It focuses heavily on the question of whether there has been IRA activity, as though that was the real primary cause of the current crisis, when in truth this crisis has been developing for months and months over the failure of the political parties—particularly the two leading political parties—to work together in a proper governmental way. This recent event is important, but it should not be allowed to distract us from the fact that if it were magicked away tomorrow morning, the problems would remain.

Secondly, is the Minister aware that even if welfare reform were taken back to Westminster—and if it has to be so, I certainly would not oppose it—that would still leave a complete breakdown in the relationship between the Democratic Unionist Party leadership and the Sinn Fein leadership? Without a working relationship together, the devolved structures will not be able to continue, whether or not they have a problem of welfare and whether or not there is any indication of IRA activity. One must say that Sinn Fein has said the kind of things that many people wanted it to say for years on the IRA: that this was criminal activity; that people should go to the police with information; and that there was absolutely no justification. The Statement refers to “politically motivated violence”, but I have the sense that everything we know about this incident means that it was personally motivated violence rather than for the purpose of destabilising Northern Ireland.

Therefore, will the Minister take back to his colleagues who are engaged in this process that we do not need another monitoring commission or another short-term political fix but a change in the kind of relationships there are between the senior leaderships of the DUP and Sinn Fein? If not, we will be faced, as the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, has suggested, with legislation in this place to take back powers, which would be a disaster.

Scotland Act 1998 (Modification of Schedules 4 and 5) Order 2015

Lord McAvoy Excerpts

Monday 7th September 2015 Grand Committee

This order demonstrates the Government’s commitment to devolving further powers to the Scottish Parliament and to honouring the Smith commission agreement. It also demonstrates the way in which this Government can work effectively with the Scottish Government to make the devolution settlement work. I commend the order to the Committee. I beg to move.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister and his staff for keeping me fully informed at an early date, allowing me to consider what is proposed in more detail. I hope that this mini-debate will be far less interesting and contentious than the one two debates ago. There is agreement here. The Opposition are fully behind what the Government are doing. I suppose that some comments could be made about the 50-year proposal, although I think the possibility of that lessens with the change of First Minister. I say that jokingly, of course, in case anybody in the Scottish press gets excited about any perceived attack on Mr Salmond—God forbid.

Certainly, the proposal is firmly within the Smith commission agreement, which the Official Opposition fully support. There are exceptions, which have been outlined by the Minister, and we go along with those as well. The two-thirds majority safeguard is absolutely right. As the Scottish Parliament goes on and gains more experience, it would be entirely ludicrous for anyone to suggest that there is a possibility of it behaving in a manner that, quite rightly, was posited by the Minister as being something that none of us want. Certainly, the Scottish Parliament is growing in experience. The people of Scotland and the United Kingdom should remember that the concept of a Scottish parliament was bitterly opposed by the Conservative Party at the time. We are absolutely delighted at the major conversion of the Government to the principle of a Scottish Parliament. In fairness to the Government, we believe that they are sticking by the terms of the Smith commission to deliver as much as possible to the Scottish Parliament in these devolved matters.

I reiterate that we are fully behind what the Government are doing. In serious terms, the maturity of the Scottish Parliament is growing. That can only be good for relations in Scotland itself and for the very important matter of relations between any Scottish Government out of Holyrood and the United Kingdom Parliament. I repeat again, we are fully behind the measure.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, support the order. I welcome the Advocate-General’s introduction of it. My mind goes back to the passage of the 1998 Bill through this House. At that time, I tried to move amendments that would have covered exactly the issues we are debating today. I am sorry to say that I did not get any support from the Labour Government, or indeed from the Conservative Opposition at that time. It struck me as odd that we were establishing a new Parliament in Scotland, yet this Parliament was going to continue to control that Parliament’s internal affairs. That seemed to me to be wrong. I was reinforced in that view when I took office as the first Presiding Officer at the Scottish Parliament and found that silly things such as the number of Deputy Presiding Officers we were allowed to have was laid down by this Parliament—that we could do nothing to make any internal changes. I therefore welcome the order. The Smith commission was very clear in stating that the Scottish Parliament should have all powers in relation to its own elections and,

“powers to make decisions about all matters relating to the arrangements and operations of the Scottish Parliament”.

That seems to me to be common sense. I very much welcome it.

If we leave this order as it is, it is open to the Scottish Parliament to change the predicted date of a Scottish Parliament election. I have tried to work it out. I hope that my arithmetic is correct, but if we leave things as they are and the Westminster Parliament is on a fixed basis of elections every five years and the Scottish Parliament is on a fixed basis of every four years, every 20 years there will be a clash. The Scottish Parliament would therefore have to use the powers in the order to make the changes. In the light of that, it would be sensible if the Scottish Parliament were to reflect on the fact that we have a fixed-term Parliament here and in Scotland, and that it would make more sense for the fixed term to be the same so that the dates do not clash at any time. That is a matter for the Scottish Parliament to decide in the future. In the mean time, I thank the Advocate-General for the introduction of this change to Schedules 4 and 5 to the original Act and I give it a full welcome.

Northern Ireland Assembly (Elections) (Amendment) Order 2015

Lord McAvoy Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dunlop]

The parties have been consulted and there is an appeal process. Indeed, an appeal is going on with regard to a polling station in Dungannon, and is currently being considered by the Electoral Commission.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, there is no need to repeat everything outlined by the Minister. The measure is absolutely necessary because of the redrawing of local government boundaries and has our support.

[Lord Dunlop]

I thank the noble Lord for his support and brevity.

Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Extension of duration of non-jury trial provisions) Order 2015

Lord McAvoy Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bew (CB)]

My Lords, I rise briefly, with a heavy heart, to support this approval Motion. I am very grateful to the Minister for the way in which he has explained the context fully and fairly. I would add only one consideration, which is that another destabilising element in the recent situation was the large paramilitary display by the INLA at the weekend in Derry. It contributes to a picture where, unfortunately, it is necessary to maintain this particular provision. I am very grateful to the Minister for saying that there will be a wider consultation next time out.

I have been speaking on these Motions since my arrival in this House, and I would love to think that, 10 years in, next time out the Minister will have better news for us. I support the approval Motion today.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the Minister to his brief. Let me place on the record that we appreciate the efforts that have been made by him in consultation. I echo what the noble Lord, Lord Bew, said—it is with a heavy heart but nevertheless a necessary attitude towards the legislation. The shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Ivan Lewis, was consulted on these measures. Again, that demonstrates the bipartisan approach to issues in Northern Ireland, which is absolutely necessary. That was before the election but we are still very grateful for that.

We all recognise that non-jury trials are not an ideal part of the justice system. They are currently necessary in a society emerging from conflict. The measures will be used in only a small number of cases—as stated, fewer than under the previous Diplock system, and under very specific circumstances, as outlined by the Minister. The Minister said that the measures were justified, and we agree. The situation is unique, and we agree wholeheartedly. We accept assurances about future monitoring of the figures.

The noble Lord mentioned examples of recent behaviour in Derry/Londonderry and clearly outlined the procedure. We support the Government on that. These measures are an improvement on Diplock. The figures need to be monitored. We also wholeheartedly welcome the public consultation, as mentioned also by the noble Lord, Lord Bew. That is a positive measure because the situation in Northern Ireland will have to be resolved within the political process.

We need to make political progress in Northern Ireland through implementing the Stormont House agreement in full to better deal with the underlying tensions that make such differences in the justice system necessary—they are necessary, unfortunately. Collectively, we need to make sure that there is no let-up in the process in Northern Ireland. The Secretary of State has to be seen to be active in a bipartisan way, backed up by the shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is not a place where one can take one’s eye off the ball. We must constantly reiterate the Stormont agreement and the need for peace and progress. Having said all that, clearly the measures are justified and have our support.

[Lord Dunlop]

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Bew and Lord McAvoy, for their support. Non-jury trial is an exceptional system used only in very limited circumstances. There is rightly a presumption for jury trial in all cases. The security situation in Northern Ireland has not significantly improved since the 2013 extension. The situation is covered by the conditions in the 2007 Act, which remain relevant for the administration of justice in Northern Ireland. In view of the continuing potential for juror intimidation and disruption of criminal trials, I commend the order to the House.