Domestic Ivory Market

Lord Mann Excerpts

Monday 6th February 2017 Westminster Hall

[John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)]

I shall be brief, as ever, Mr Brady. Having spoken comprehensively to my satisfaction and, I hope, to the satisfaction of others in the debate in December 2016, I thank all those who signed the petition for this debate. It is democracy in practice, and the longer the petition had been out there, the more signatures it would have accrued, because there is a feeling in the country and increasing recognition that we are throwing away our future.

I pointed out in the debate in December that this is about my grandson’s future, and I can now say happily that it is about both my grandsons’ futures. It is not trite to say that. What are we bequeathing them? Of all the many issues in front of Parliament today and on other days, if we are incapable of fulfilling our role to protect for continuing generations the species that freely roam this planet alongside us, we have no role as politicians.

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on his new grandchild. He referred to a previous debate in December, when I and other hon. Members here today pointed out that an elephant is killed nearly every 15 minutes, so since that debate, more than 5,000 more elephants might have been killed. Does he agree that time is of the essence?

[John Mann]

Time is running out for elephants, lions, tigers, snow leopards and many of the other great species. I remember what I did as a kid, so I go out and buy my grandchildren little plastic animals, ready for when they come and visit. Zoos are not what they were in olden days; they are open plains where animals can play and we can move around among them, which is great. I do not want to have to explain, “I’ve seen this animal in the wild, but you’re not going to see it,” because we, the human race, have got rid of it, through our stupidity, greed and political inaction.

In 2003, in a much less crowded environment—the message is certainly getting out to the new generation of politicians elected to the House—I successfully introduced an amendment to make trade in endangered species an imprisonable offence for the first time. We went through the issues and the hon. Member for North Herefordshire (Bill Wiggin) sat alongside me on the all-party group and made up the numbers to pursue the issue. It was a bit of a curiosity for many people at the time, but it seemed important and it got through unanimously. We were at crisis point then, but Parliament did not realise it.

The petitioners can see from the number of people present today—more than 30 Members of Parliament, from different generations, are here on both sides of the Chamber—that Parliament is starting to understand the issue. We need effective action from us and, through us, from the Government. I hope the Minister will be more precise than when she responded to the previous debate about what our Government will do. Will we be trailing behind the Communist party in the People’s Republic of China? I trust not. I trust that this nation will be the world leader. It is our responsibility. We should not be waiting on any other nation. The fact that parties from every part of the House are represented here demonstrates how the Government’s actions will be applauded and supported.

[Jim Shannon]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[John Mann]

I will give way to my colleague from Northern Ireland, to demonstrate how wide ranging support is across the House.

[Jim Shannon]

That support comes from all the regions of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The hon. Gentleman referred to interaction with his grandchildren and to where animals roam on the plains. Does he believe that legislative action in the House must include help for countries that have elephants, hippopotamuses and so on to ensure that they have rangers and helicopters and everything necessary to make sure that those animals can roam and live freely?

[John Mann]

Those countries desperately need our support. With my mountaineering hat on, I recall climbing Mount Kilimanjaro in August 2016 through what was, 20 years ago, the wild route. It was wild because there were elephants and animals more dangerous than elephants prowling on the slopes of Mount Kilimanjaro. In particular, there were a significant number of elephants in the forest and up on the Shira plateau, but they are not there now. Guides who were with me could recall during their guiding lifetime how many they had seen as adults, never mind as children. That demonstrated vividly to me the crisis in one small part of the world in Tanzania.

[Mr Edward Vaizey (Wantage) (Con)]

I cannot believe that any wild animal would dare to take on the hon. Gentleman.

[Mr Vaizey]

And look what will happen to me. Will the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) clarify his position? If an antique contains ivory and is perhaps in a world-renowned museum, will it be allowed to sell it or lend it to another museum under his proposals?

[John Mann]

If I were a Minister, I would ban the lot and stop any trade in or movement of ivory. The survival of the elephant is far more important than a museum, however great it and the curators of the modern age may be, however wise, experienced and brilliant they may be and however great their genius. That is nothing compared with the survival of elephants. It is about time we were bold and said that there should be no half-measures, mixed messages, little promises or small steps forwards. A total ban is what I want.

[Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the most dangerous of all animals is the Chinese consumer? Nearly all the animals in the list he mentioned are used in Chinese medicine. Piano makers and people who use antique ivory are not contributing to the problem today. We need to tackle what is happening today.

[John Mann]

The problem today was manifested differently yesterday, and people today will have the same ignorance that people had yesterday—all of us, and I exclude no one, including me—in our past thinking, which is why we need to be brave in our decision making. More importantly, we need foresight in thinking through what we are bequeathing the planet. As things are going, there will be no elephants or many of the other great species.

[Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con)]

When I first went to the Kruger national park about 12 years ago, I saw a herd of 52 elephants, including the big matriarch to tiny newborns. I am told that people now do not see herds; they see one or two animals. That is the problem we are facing and we cannot afford to wait. Does the hon. Gentleman agree?

[John Mann]

The reality is that in some countries where we have the wonderful opportunity to visit, someone going out into the bush is as likely to see a carcase as a live elephant. That is the reality in all too many parts of the world.

I will finish on that point because many hon. Members want to speak and my previous remarks are in Hansard, not least my calls that everything the Department for International Development and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office do should have endangered species, not least elephants, as a key part of the leverage in all our foreign relations and aid. As well as stopping any trade in this country, we should lead the world. It is our duty to do so and I look forward to hearing from other hon. Members.

--- Later in debate ---

[Danny Kinahan]

I could not have taken a more helpful intervention. That is exactly what I was leading to. The British Museum, which loans pieces worldwide and looks after the items that are the whole world’s history and artefacts, has bought, paid for and kept parts of collections from Iran and Iraq. It gathers in objects from around the world. Think of our museums, galleries and great houses everywhere. The ivory trade is in there in part. Yes, it may be ghastly and awful that that is what people did in the past, but we have to find the balance.

[John Mann]

Museums also have shrunken heads on display and lend the most famous ones across the world, but that does not suggest that we should allow a trade in shrunken heads today, does it?

[Danny Kinahan]

How appalling would that be? Yes, I agree with that little point, but on the whole we must recognise everyone’s history and work together to keep all forms of history.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Mann]

Does the hon. Lady have some evidence that this issue is not a problem? How would she explain the £3,250 fine on Christie’s in May last year, or the record 110 kg of ivory tusks that were found at terminal 4 in Heathrow airport in October 2015, which came from Angola and, like other such shipments, was headed eastwards via the United Kingdom? How would she explain those incidents if there was not a problem?

[Victoria Borwick]

First, as we all know, the Christie’s stuff is publicly known—Christie’s admits to making a mistake and paid up; that is a matter of public record. As has been said before with regard to the tusks, as we all know, they were in transit and that is what we have got to stop. Every Member in this Chamber, and I am sure that all those watching, would absolutely concur with the hon. Gentleman: we have got to stop the trade and the transit of tusks. There is no disagreement between us on that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Coffey]

I am really sorry, but my right hon. Friend spoke for nearly half an hour and I have limited time to reply.

Last year, France made the bold announcement that it would permit trade in pre-1975 ivory only on a case-by-case basis, but since then it has consulted on the scope of its ban and is now considering exemptions for pre-1947 items and musical instruments. We look forward to hearing the final outcome of its consultation.

We welcome the announcement by the Chinese Government of their intention to close China’s domestic ivory market by the end of 2017. Again, we look forward to hearing more details of their intentions for the ban, including what the exemption allowing the auction of ivory “relics” will cover. However, the welcome closure of the carving factories this year will be a huge step in stopping the creation of new worked ivory artefacts.

Hong Kong was mentioned. The Hong Kong Government announced plans to phase out the domestic ivory trade, but it is my understanding that, again, there will be an exemption for antiques, which has still to be defined. Domestic sale will be allowed with a licence.

I have met groups on all sides of the debate, from conservation experts to antiques sector representatives, and will continue to do so. It matters that when considering the final outcome of the consultation, including the calls to go further, we know that there is a strong likelihood of legal challenge and so we would require further understanding of the impact on individuals, businesses and cultural institutions that own these items and the interaction with the conservation of elephants today. As has been pointed out, ivory is found in works from the art deco period and in musical instruments, often forming a small proportion of the item. The kind of assessment that we would have to consider would include how prohibiting the sale of a 17th-century ivory carving of the flagellation of Christ prevented the poaching of elephants today.

I note what the hon. Member for Bassetlaw said on a total ban, as indeed have other hon. Members, and what he said on museums. I am not sure whether he would go further and seek the destruction of ivory pieces, including the throne given to Queen Victoria—I am not sure whether he wants to go that far. However, I stand by the comments that I made previously about display, and I was referring particularly to the display of raw tusks, which still happens.

[John Mann]

The Minister could find out my views if she could tell us when the consultation will take place. On 8 December, we were told “shortly”. She has just said “shortly” again.

[Dr Coffey]

It is still shortly.

[John Mann]

We want to know when—

[Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair)]

Order.