Lord Mann
Main Page: Lord Mann (Labour - Life peer)Department Debates - View all Lord Mann's debates with the HM Treasury
(14 years, 2 months ago)
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Mr Gauke
The fact is that the measures that the Government have taken have had the support of the IMF, the OECD, the World Bank and the Governor of the Bank of England. We are getting widespread support for taking these tough measures. We also have the support of the director general of the CBI. There is an increasingly large consensus—it even includes Tony Blair—that if we simply deny the existence of the deficit and avoid taking these tough decisions, we shall face a worse problem later on. It is absolutely right that we should take these measures.
John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)
On the Deloitte survey, does the Minister agree that business people make investment decisions based on how they see the future? What will happen if those business people see a murky future? Will they not invest less? Would not that result in the Government’s optimistic predictions of private sector growth, on which they are relying, not coming to fruition?
Mr Gauke
I shall tell the hon. Gentleman what would drive down investment: the fear that the Government were not prepared to take the tough decisions. Taking decisions for the long term to tackle the deficit will encourage private sector growth, and this Government are confident that we are taking steps in the right direction. We are also confident that a policy of reducing public expenditure rather than increasing taxation—which is the forecast of our plans to reduce the deficit—is the right way forward. Spending that is funded by borrowing is just a recipe for higher taxation and bigger cuts in the future, burdening future generations with the problems created by this one. That approach would drive down investment. Simply ignoring the matter would not help investment; it would not be fair and it would not be progressive.
Ms Eagle
Clearly, that measure was temporary and well signalled in advance—a cut to boost the economy in the short term in the most effective way. The interesting thing about what has been announced since June is that the VAT increase appears to be permanent. We are also seeing a range of other announcements, such as the shift from the retail prices index for benefit increases to the consumer prices index—not temporary to deal with a situation in front of us, but seemingly permanent.
John Mann
My hon. Friend may not be too happy to give way, but first I congratulate her on her appointment. She is an appropriate and excellent appointment to the Opposition Treasury team. However, she is making an argument about increasing taxation leading to a reduction in growth. Is that not a rather dangerous argument for a Labour Opposition to make when the choices between spending and taxation are precisely those that any Government would have to make? Is it not time that the Labour Opposition re-examined their opposition to the VAT increase? Should we not reverse that opposition and support the increase as an appropriate way to increase taxation at a time when we need to offset any cuts that would lead to job losses in the public sector?
Ms Eagle
My hon. Friend should take account of the regressive nature of VAT and the fact that the Government have trumpeted from the beginning that their measures will be fair. They even used the word “progressive” during the June Budget discussions when the analysis by the Institute for Fiscal Studies and recent work by Age UK demonstrates that the effect of the Budget measures of which the Bill is a small part will be the exact opposite of progressive. It will be regressive; it will hit the poorest hardest, and VAT has a part to play in that.
John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)
I know that the Leader of the Opposition is otherwise detained with an important speech at the moment, but I am sure that the newly appointed shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie)—I congratulate him on his appointment—will want to convey the sentiment and details of the advice that I will outline in the next few minutes, not only to the rest of the shadow Treasury team but to the new leader.
I want to start by congratulating the hon. Member for Boston and Skegness (Mark Simmonds). It must be irritating—it seems so even from the Opposition Benches—for him to be sitting on the Back Benches with a Liberal having nicked his job, but such are the dilemmas of coalition. He is a great expert on real estate. I congratulate him on his speech, although it showed that he was not too well schooled in economics even though he went to school in my constituency. I may need to have a word with his former head teacher about the economics curriculum at that school, because the hon. Gentleman’s analysis of borrowing, like the document that he has read, shows a fatal flaw in economic logic and understanding.
The primary reason for the deficit—and more so in the current year than our competitors—is our over-reliance on the economic activity of, and consequently our tax take from, the financial institutions of the City of London. Over-reliance on the City, leading to the drying up of that tax take as its economic activity dived, was the classic error made by the previous Government and the two Governments before them—by Prime Ministers ever since the big bang. All failed to see that an economy that is unduly weighted towards its financial institutions and the City will succumb at any time in a financial downturn. That is precisely what has happened in the United Kingdom. However, underlying that, our actual debt, built recurrently, is not only no worse but better than that of most of our competitors, not least because of the former Chancellor’s pay-back and buy-back of debt between 1998 and 2000.
Of course, a Government must get on top of the current year’s situation, because if that features a recurrent build-up of debt, the situation over a period of years will deteriorate. In the league table of debt, we do not sit at the top, as the Chancellor and others on the Government Front Bench try to suggest. We sit in the middle—below France, alongside Germany and below Italy, and well below Japan and the United States of America. That is critically important, because they are servicing those debts recurrently as well as having a build-up.
The question that those on both Front Benches shy away from is what I call the China syndrome. That is the big issue of the imbalances in the world economy that no one is daring to address, and it has been accentuated by the financial crisis. It is rather ironic that capitalist economies are managing to ignore a state-controlled, Communist party run, non-democratic, non-central bank democratic, non-financial institution democratic state that owns more of the world’s dollar debt than anybody else, on the basis of which we are all buying huge amounts of goods with an artificially rigged currency against the rest of the world. That is at the heart of the ongoing problems and the potential for double-dip recession, which, if Government policy in this country is poor, will affect us more adversely than our competitors, but will happen on a worldwide basis. The China syndrome lies behind that; when the Nobel peace prize, or another Nobel prize, is awarded to a Chinese dissident, the Government do not even have the courage to stand alongside others such as President Obama in congratulating those dissidents. How the world of politics has gone in a circle when the Tory party is kowtowing to the Chinese Communist party, hoping that that will somehow assist our economic growth.
Protectionism has been mentioned. Anyone who analyses the economics of the 1930s will understand one particular factor that makes the current situation different: all the growth in the ’30s was protectionist growth. The United States has understood that in the longer term. Its growth was built on military expansion, rearmament and road building and, as much as possible, on the non-importation of labour and materials. It therefore allowed regeneration and created jobs.
Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
Could the hon. Gentleman explain how the British Government could make the Chinese revalue their currency?
John Mann
Of course the British Government, cowardly as they are in their relations with China, cannot do so alone—it has to be done on an international level among all the capitalist economies of the world.
If that issue is not dealt with, the danger of a second recession will loom—for whoever is in power in whatever country, to be fair. We are shying away from that. It is not tenable to develop economies where everyone proceeds on the basis that we will continue to export to China as many aggregates and other raw materials as we can, to import the cheapest possible—virtually slave-labour—products, and hope that we will regenerate our economy based on the sale of those products. My own local economy benefits more than most from that in distribution networks, but I can see that it is not a sustainable model in the longer term. The China syndrome has to be dealt with in the near future, because if China fails to rebalance its currency there will be a second, much greater world recession.
Instead of that, we have this piffling little Bill with virtually nothing in it, not even the break-up of the big banks promised by the Liberals—the only Liberal economic policy that seemed to get adopted by the Conservatives, and an absurd irrelevance in the context of where we are. How the banks are run and regulated is absolutely vital to all of us, but who cares how they are structured? At the start of the crisis, Lehman Brothers, an investment bank, and Northern Rock, a building society, both collapsed. Such infantile politics is not surprising coming from the Liberal former so-called shadow shadow Chancellor, from Twickenham in south London, who is now in an important position in government, but it is quite extraordinary coming from the Conservative party. It is an incoherent economic policy based purely on political expediency. I note that it is not in the Bill, and it will never be put forward. It is just pure politicking to try to hide away from the fact that this is a Government whose economic policy is based on hope.
I want to make a few points about what the Opposition’s policy should be on the Bill and the economy. It is not consistent to argue that there should be no tax increases or spending cuts. That is economic illiteracy, which needs to be broken. In the current economic crisis, I have no problem with taxation going up as part of rebalancing the public finances. Therefore, if the Government propose increasing the higher rate of taxation, I am relaxed about that being necessary. Similarly, I am relaxed about VAT going up. The alternative would be to raise income tax. If the Opposition support that, they should state that view. I would disagree with it; for all its flaws and regressive nature, it is more sensible to increase VAT. I believe that £8 billion is the agreed figure that derives from the VAT increase. I will not argue against such an increase, which would thereby suggest a further £8 billion-worth of public sector cuts and job losses in my constituency, leading to a further recession based on the multiplier effect of those job losses. That would be a wishy-washy cop-out.
The Opposition need to strengthen their economic policies. They need more courage in working through what is happening—it is lazy to do otherwise. It is nonsense to suggest that there are other ways of increasing the tax take, based on projected economic growth—the current position—instead of the VAT increase. Again, that is economic illiteracy. Of course we want economic growth—so do the Government and so does every party in the House—but that is not an economic policy; it is a hope. Labour Members know that the incoherent coalition has a weak policy—the Bill lacks proper ideas and procedures for dealing with what the private sector needs. We will not, therefore, experience such growth and we, as an Opposition, cannot predicate economic policy on growth that the Government will not achieve. That is nonsense. Some serious thought and discussion should take place about the taxes that should increase and the cuts that should be made.
I ran a private sector business—that makes me rather unusual in Parliament. I set one up from my garage, so I know about the decisions that people who have no inherited wealth or banks lending to them make about how to invest. I had a capital-intensive business with my family. I know how interest rates work, and what that means for making decisions. I know about capital investment policies and how to squeeze a bit of extra capital out of them, and about decisions on the best timing. We were successful, and, like hundreds of thousands of other small businesses across the country, we made a profit—there is nothing wrong with that. We contributed an appropriate bit of tax—every business thinks that it is too much—to the Exchequer. However, we were not operating in a vacuum. Who will buy the products and services if people have been thrown out of work? Again, that underlines the coalition Government’s economic illiteracy. They have a vain hope that the private sector will turn up, but it will not, based on rational decision making. That is why the Deloitte survey, which was published today, should be so concerning to the Government and to us all.
We all like to criticise the Government—I love to criticise a Tory Government—but I do not want my constituents to suffer from recession and job losses because you lot have got it wrong. My people will be hurt first and my economy will be hit hardest. That has happened before and it will happen this time, so I want to help the Government by making some suggestions. I hope that they are making notes. The private sector cannot fill the void because of the pace of the cuts. That is the big error that needs to be put right. The speed at which the cuts are made and how they are made are crucial matters.
There is another fundamental error, on which I want to elaborate because it is a critical point. I know, Mr Deputy Speaker, that it is important to the people of Chorley. The Government’s cuts will have a disproportionate impact on the traditional English towns. The Government have the same civil servants, with the same civil service mentality, who failed to crack the problem previously. They are therefore making the cuts in the same way as other Governments made them. The civil servants think, “Ah—centralise.” The Secretary of State for Justice decides to cut magistrates courts. Which ones does he cut? He cuts those in the small English towns more than anywhere else. In Worksop, that means 16 jobs, and a couple more than that in Retford. Those are small numbers, but the jobs are relatively well paid. Those people buy sandwiches, go to jewellers and other small traders in the town centres.
I am newly elected to represent the town of Retford, due to boundary changes. It was previously Tory for a few years, but it is Labour now. The magistrates court in Retford is going. The police face a 13% cut. Which police stations might go? One of the early candidates for closure is Retford. The fire service in Nottinghamshire faces a 30% cut. Which fire stations will go? Retford is rather old and needs capital investment. Merging it with somewhere else is already being considered. What about social services? Nottinghamshire county council—one of the worst run local authorities in the country—is shifting social services, and Bassetlaw district council is also shifting its workers. Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs is cutting the tax office. All those cuts could be rationalised individually, but add them all up. Who else works in town centres? The butcher, the baker—the candlestick maker has gone—the sandwich maker and the small pub are there, and the public sector workers provide the key income in the small towns.
Mrs Main
I am really enjoying the hon. Gentleman’s speech as he canters through all the things that he does not like. He promised that he would give us some encouragement about what should happen. When will he do that instead of listing all the things he thinks are dreadful and should not happen?
John Mann
Well, the majority of the Tory heartlands—they may be former Tory heartlands in future—will get the cuts. It is fundamentally wrong that small English towns should bear the brunt of the cuts. If 50 jobs are lost in a big city, it is bad for those people, but it does not affect all the businesses. If 50 jobs in Retford, Skegness or Boston, or 100 jobs in Worksop are lost, there is a major crisis in those town centres. What do you think the very people whom you are rightly trying to get off incapacity benefit, perhaps to start small businesses in Worksop or Retford, will start doing—major, advanced science and technology? No, they will think, “I could run a sandwich shop.” Good luck to them—it is entrepreneurship, and it would be brilliant, but not if there is no one to buy the sandwiches. Who owns the small businesses and the market stalls? Those people will lose their jobs because they are on the cusp and the banks are not lending them money; they are lending even less than they were previously. Those people and the taxi drivers and the small builders come to my surgery—they suffer the knock-on effects. That is why you have got it wrong and why you should think again and slow down the cuts—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. I am not responsible for Bassetlaw. Every time the hon. Gentleman says “you”, he means me. He should know better—he has been a Member of Parliament for a long time.
John Mann
I am very grateful that you are not responsible for Bassetlaw, Mr Deputy Speaker. The truth is that this evil Government will have an impact on the constituency of Chorley in the same way as they will on Bassetlaw.
My final point is that the successes of the previous Government have led to new jobs in Worksop. Laing O’Rourke provided 350 jobs earlier this year, and I opened a new site for MBA Polymers last week, which will provide 120 jobs. Both companies came to my area because of the regional development agency grant. In the case of MBA, the grant was the reason to come to this country, never mind to my area. The considerable RDA grant was critical to their decisions. In the case of Laing O’Rourke, the land reclamation works were also important, and other sites are going to market. That is the role of the state, and the weakness of this Government’s economic policy is that the new systems replacing the RDAs—I understand the logic behind that and I agree that the bureaucracy could have been cut back—will not replace that role. Therefore, we will not see the competitive advantage that areas such as mine have had from coherent incentives to private business and bigger employers. We need small employers, yes, but we need large ones too. That is where this Government have got things fundamentally wrong.
My plea to my colleagues on the Front Bench is to tighten up on our economic policy. Let us make the real choices, because we are too woolly at the moment. I hope that the Government are listening to me and taking notes, because small-town England will not forgive a Government who decimate it. Just this week, the council in Nottinghamshire has announced that the lights will be turned out overnight, and that will be the legacy of this Government. It is not too late to change, and as a start I suggest that they withdraw this piffling little Bill and put a proper one in its place.
Mr Binley
I am grateful for that intervention. The truth of the matter is that we have a budget deficit of £70 million, but there is more lying behind it that we are not dealing with until we get the deficit down. There is the £1,450 billion of national debt, and if we add to that the money owed on private finance initiative schemes, the money owed to public sector pensions and the money that we have used to underwrite the banks, we get a figure of £3,000 billion. I asked the Treasury what a billion looked like, and I was told what a billion seconds was. This story has been heard in the House before, but I was shocked to learn that 1 billion seconds equates to just over 32 years. That puts into perspective the size of the problem that this nation faces. Again I plead with Opposition Members to come to terms with the problem, because I genuinely do not believe that we can solve it unless they recognise where it started.
Mr Binley
If the hon. Gentleman will allow me to finish, I will allow him to intervene again. Steady down.
This is about the size of the national debt and the deficit and their relationship to our triple A rating. If we had not taken the action that we did, it is likely that we would have lost that rating, which would have made all our interest costs considerably higher and the deficit massively bigger, causing the country even greater problems.
Mr Binley
I do not accept that point of view. This is not just about the size of the national debt; we need to consider its size in relation to the economy. Therein lies one of our problems. The fact is that ours is one of the worst situations in the G20. I should like to advise the hon. Gentleman that, as long as he and his party remain in denial, they will be unable to move forward, and that, for the good of politics, they need to move forward just a little.
Justine Greening
The hon. Gentleman should direct his question at his colleagues, who had planned the capital cuts that he no doubt hates so much. If he comes and looks at other schools, he will see that his Government left schools such as my own Elliott school in Putney in an appalling state. I do not think he has an answer to that.
We heard a number of contributions from Opposition Members. The hon. Member for Wallasey offered no alternative to the plan set out by the Government. The hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) spoke about scrapping the package that we presented in the emergency Budget to support business. We heard from the hon. Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern), who apparently welcomed the Bill and wanted investment, but was against the cuts in corporation tax that we introduced. We heard from the hon. Members for Islwyn (Chris Evans), for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson), for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore), and for Bassetlaw (John Mann) who were all against taking action to sort out the economy. At least the hon. Member for Bassetlaw acknowledged that his party has a gaping chasm in its economic policy. Until the Opposition fill that, they will have no credibility.
Justine Greening
I decided to pick out the piece in which the hon. Gentleman talked about his party, which he obviously supports. Our plans are all about tackling the deficit. Funding that debt will cost our economy £43 billion this year. That means that every taxpayer in Britain will pay almost £1,400 of income tax to service that debt interest. The hon. Gentleman might consider that a good use of taxpayers’ money rather than spending it on front-line services. I do not. Unless we take the difficult but fair decisions that we are taking now to sort out the deficit, we will not be in a position to undertake sustainable funding of our public services again. That is why the measures that we are taking are so important.
Many of the clauses in the Bill were brought forward by the previous Government. We consulted stakeholders over the summer because we were keen to make sure that we have a more open and considered approach for our tax legislation than we have had in the past. Many respondents have been clear about how welcome that approach is. It has made the Bill more transparent, more robust and better focused. It was a pleasure to hear from the hon. Member for Bristol West (Stephen Williams) who, I believe, is a fellow chartered accountant and could therefore appreciate the care that has been taken with the Bill.
Let me pick up on some of the technical questions raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Boston and Skegness (Mark Simmonds) and the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie). I am pleased that my hon. Friend welcomes the measure on REITs in the Bill. I will write to him on some of the more specific issues that he raised. He should recognise that the measure in the Bill is symptomatic of the fact that we see REITs as a positive vehicle, and we will see what we can do to support them further.
The hon. Member for Dundee East raised so many issues so quickly that I barely had time to scribble them all down. I hope we will return to many of them in Committee.
The other thing that foxed me was that the hon. Gentleman went in reverse order, starting at clause 25 and moving on to clauses 7 and 5. But, he asked some broad questions, and on the corporation tax and petroleum revenue tax changes he was right to say that the measures are about creating a more harmonised system. He raised many specific issues, and we can go into more detail about them, including clause 7, in Committee. On clause 5, he raised a number of good questions about guidance, and we are looking to revise that. We are talking to stakeholders and hearing about the issues that they want clarified; indeed, he mentioned some of them in his speech. His points were well made, and I look forward to continuing the debate in Committee.
There are further measures in the Bill to support the private sector and contribute to more balanced growth in the UK. We heard from my hon. Friends the Members for Northampton South (Mr Binley), for Dover, for Watford (Richard Harrington), for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke) and for Macclesfield (David Rutley) about how important it is that our Government take steps to support business so that business in turn can create jobs. We must not forget that without the steps that we took in our emergency Budget, small companies would face a small companies corporation tax rise, not one that is going to fall, and a national insurance rise—the jobs tax. Instead, they can look forward to enjoying a reduction in national insurance liability, so we are taking the steps that we need to take.