Police: Firearms Officers

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

It is for the Home Office to make decisions on a range of issues. Rightly, I am not eligible to become the Crown Prosecution Service and determine what information it presents to a jury; nor am I in a position to be the jury in the trial because I have not been party to the information that was presented to it. It is for the CPS to charge and the jury to determine, and then—if a conviction takes place, which in this case it did not—for the judge to pass sentence and for the criminal justice system to manage that sentence in an effective and appropriate way. I hope the noble Lord will accept that his points are interesting but not for me.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, in 35 years as a serving police officer, many as a detective, I developed a very high regard for members of juries. I think we tend to not give them all the information. When I was the president of the Police Superintendents’ Association, we campaigned vehemently to change the law on the right to silence. Your Lordships may be surprised to know that when we interviewed prisoners who continually said “no comment”—noble Lords will probably have seen that happen on television —we were not allowed to give that information to the jury as it was felt that it would be too prejudicial. The law was changed and I think we have had a better justice system since then. Martyn Blake was acquitted—and what a catastrophe it might have been had he been convicted. Can the Minister say whether an appeal on the evidence we have heard today would have been put before the appeal hearing?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Again, I know the noble Lord has great experience of policing, but he will also know that those policing matters, those charging decisions, that acquittal decision and any appeal decision are not for the Home Office. The issues that we will be examining are around police accountability and the issues that have arisen out of this case, but not this case. It is not for me to be judge, jury, CPS or, indeed, police. If I did all those things, this House would soon call me to order.

Ports and Airports: Queues

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Tuesday 28th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I have not seen those press reports, but I will certainly look into that and write to the noble Lord.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, is there any intention of restricting the right to strike of Border Force officers in the interests of security?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that question—yes, under the Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill, Border Force is envisaged as being subject to the legislation and regulations could be made requiring minimum service levels on the part of Border Force staff.

Prostitution

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Tuesday 21st February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The noble Baroness will be aware that there is also a different legislative approach across the United Kingdom, including in Northern Ireland, where all buying of sex has been criminalised and the selling decriminalised. However, to go back to an earlier point, I am afraid that we have yet to see unequivocal evidence that any one approach is better at tackling harm and exploitation, and that remains our priority. We will continue to monitor the implementation and impact of the changes in Northern Ireland, but as yet there is insufficient evidence.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, soliciting in public by a woman for sexual purposes is illegal. Has any progress been made on criminalising the men who approach the women, who are also soliciting?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Of course, some offences are associated with that already, in particular things such as kerb-crawling.

Metropolitan Police: Criminality

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Wednesday 1st February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that and defer to his extensive experience. One of the things that the review is doing is looking at whether the current three-stage performance system is effective, which will obviously have to take into account some of the things that the noble Lord has just raised. I should have said in my earlier answer that the review has a time limit of four months on it. Obviously, that time is ticking, and the terms of reference were announced a couple of weeks ago.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, your Lordships’ House will share the views of most right-thinking members of the public in condemning the crimes committed by the officers who were mentioned in the debate—the abhorrent crimes of David Carrick. There are clearly faults in the vetting system and in the complaints investigation system. Will the Minister say whether in the case of an officer in force X who is found to have had an allegation made against him in force Y, where he lives, there is a duty on force Y to inform his employer—that is, force X— of the complaint?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I am afraid I do not have the answer to that question and will have to find out and come back to the noble Lord. I would say that the IOPC is capable of investigating these allegations without having been notified by the officer’s force.

Police and Crime Commissioners: Accountability Arrangements

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Wednesday 25th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I think I thank my noble friend for that. I am afraid I rather impotently have to go back to the comment I made earlier: it would be inappropriate to comment further while these proceedings are ongoing. However, of course I understand, and I accept that my noble friend Lord Lexden has made an extremely valid point and continues to do so.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, as I recall, the original reason for setting up police and crime commissioners was to create more accountability, because the police and crime commissioner would be more visible in the community and very well-known. In fact, the opposite has been proved true because the turnout at votes shows apathy and ignorance. Then there is the question of the cost of setting up the offices of police and crime commissioners and their deputies and the salaries and everything else that goes with it. Can the Minister tell the House what this has added to the policing bill annually?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I am afraid I cannot answer that specific question, but I can and will say that the public profile of PCCs means they are scrutinised in a way that anonymous police authorities were not. I think the fact that we have this conversation on a relatively regular basis is proof of that. Ultimately, PCCs are directly elected by the communities they serve, and the public will have their say in due course. The noble Lord raised a point on turnout. In 2021, the turnout figure was 33.9%, a 6.5% increase from 2016 and a significant increase on 2012.

Metropolitan Police: Misconduct

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Wednesday 19th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I think we have a bit of time, so let us hear from my noble friend Lord Hailsham, followed by the noble Lord.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Thursday 12th May 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich. It will not surprise your Lordships that my speech will focus on matters of policing.

I declare an interest as the former national president of the Police Superintendents’ Association. It is a public service of which I am still very proud and in which I spent 35 years of my life serving the public. It was an exciting time. I am saddened, to say the least, that the police service has had such a torrid time with reputational damage over the last few years, with a worrying fall in prosecutions of and convictions for rape and, in my judgment, an all-round generally poor performance in service to the public, culminating in the tragic murder of Sarah Everard by a serving police constable.

That left me wondering what the causes were. It is well known that the financial crash of 2008 led to austerity measures resulting in a reduction of police nationally from a high of 172,000 officers in 2010 to just 150,000 by 2017, a reduction of 22,000. It is not rocket science to understand that higher workloads due to increased road traffic, computer fraud, online grooming, organised crime, drug trafficking and modern slavery, together with the slashing of police budgets, could lead to only one thing: a drastic reduction in ordinary community policing, which, as we in this House all know, is the backbone of policing by consent.

As a result, local police stations were closed, police visibility was reduced, response times have become a scandal and the investigation of burglary quite often amounts to the issuing of a crime number for insurance purposes. I have even seen a recent example of a valuable motor car being stolen from a gated property in Bury, with images of the theft taking place provided on CCTV by the victim, where the police could not even be bothered to examine it because of a lack of manpower. That is a disgrace.

To be fair, the Home Office is a large, diverse department of state and the Home Secretary is responsible to Parliament for the provision of police services. The task should have been made easier by the election of police and crime commissioners, but I will leave that issue to one side as I believe that, with many PCCs representing political parties, there is a risk of drawing police into party politics. It is manifestly clear that the Home Secretary should fight the police’s corner, but unfortunately many officers feel that she has let them down. The Police Federation recently wrote an open letter expressing a lack of confidence in the Home Secretary, which shows how strained relations have become.

There is an understandable and strong belief that the police are not valued by this Government. That is perfectly clear when we see that, since 2010, workloads have increased dramatically while the police have seen a staggering real-terms pay cut of 20%. There is an independent pay review mechanism for the police, just as for Members of Parliament, yet when that review body recently announced a modest pay rise for police officers the Government announced a public sector pay freeze. It did not go unnoticed that the freeze did not apply to honourable Members in another place. Where is the fairness in that?

I will say no more about pay as the police service has closed ranks and is seeking a judicial review of the so-called independent pay machinery. This of course is a Government who illegally prorogued Parliament and openly admitted to being prepared to break international law. When Owen Paterson was found to have breached lobbying rules, the Prime Minister tried to change those rules—not to mention all the dissembling that has taken place by the PM on the protocol, which has already been mentioned. Of course, this Government do not like judicial review, as we have seen. I am tempted to join the revolutionary movement of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, because clearly the changing balance is all in the Government’s favour.

Moving on, you cannot make a silk purse from a pig’s ear, and this applies to the recruitment of police officers. I am not talking about academic qualifications but about moral fibre, good judgment and probity. There has been quite a bit of publicity recently about a number of serving officers with criminal convictions. A serving officer was known to be committing indecent exposure, yet no action was taken. Serving officers have taken photographs of murder victims and there was a WhatsApp group in which Metropolitan Police officers expressed misogyny and homophobia. Wayne Couzens, the convicted killer of Sarah Everard, was nicknamed “the rapist” by colleagues while serving as a police officer.

There appears to have been an appalling fall in standards of recruitment. What has happened to the recruitment of mature ex-servicemen who already come packaged with maturity and discipline? I believe the necessity of probation training leading up to a degree qualification discourages many excellent people who simply want to be a police officer on the streets; they do not want to be an academic or in senior management.

Finally, we have seen a shocking pattern of conduct by the present Government, who should be setting standards of behaviour: breaches of the Ministerial Code, misleading the House of Commons and I dare not even mention partygate. I have concluded that it does not help to set standards when those expected to enforce the law see a Government whose conduct suggests that they clearly think they are above the law.

Does the Minister, a canny lad from the north-east, agree—I think he probably will—that the police should do better than this, and that the British people deserve a police service that is properly funded, remunerated fairly and one that they can trust, believe in and be proud of? In essence, a service that this country can—

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, it might be worth noting the advisory time limit. We are only half way through the debate.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

May I just finish with one final question to the Minister? The gracious Speech stated that the Government will “support the police”. In the noble Lord’s reply to the debate, will he indicate when and in what way?

Criminal Trials: Intercept Evidence

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Wednesday 9th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for giving me notice of the fact that she was going to raise this issue; it is not really part of this Question, but that never stops her. As I said, we do not use intercept warrants as court evidence. In terms of who would authorise what, the Home Office would authorise its various agencies, the Foreign Office its agencies and the Northern Ireland Office its agencies, so it would be for those Secretaries of State to authorise those warrants.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, the interception of telephone calls or voicemails is normally an egregious breach of personal privacy, and some tabloids have paid the penalty for that. I declare an interest as a victim of hacking. However, that is different from law enforcement using intercept methods, properly regulated by the UK police and security authorities. Does the Minister agree that such techniques are essential to facilitate the gathering of essential evidence, as exemplified, as has been mentioned, by the FBI sting yesterday using the ANOM app, leading to over 800 arrests worldwide, and that, provided that it is used and regulated properly by the law, it is a legitimate tool protecting our citizens from organised and violent criminals?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

That is a very good question to end on. The noble Lord raises the huge benefit of what the NCA has achieved through operations like Venetic. I will read out the figures: 746 individuals arrested and £54 million, 77 firearms and over 2 tonnes of drugs seized. That is an incredible achievement that goes towards keeping our citizens safe.

Police National Computer

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Tuesday 19th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, the development of the police national computer, in which I was involved many years ago, was a massive leap in the progress of law enforcement in the UK. As the noble Baroness well knows, the value of real-time data from the PNC is critical to all front-line police officers. DNA and fingerprint evidence is also essential, not only in convicting but in establishing innocence in our courts, in historic and current investigations. For the record, I agree with her that, once taken, DNA should be retained forever. Can she shine any more light on how the error occurred? Can she also give your Lordships any idea of whether it will be possible to recover all or part of the lost data, which is perhaps also held elsewhere?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I am very happy to give the noble Lord an update: last week the Home Office became aware that, as a result of human error, the software which triggers these automatic deletions contained defective coding and had inadvertently deleted records that it should not have and had not deleted some records which should have been deleted. An estimated 213,000 offence records, 175,000 arrest records and 15,000 person records are now being investigated as potentially having been deleted. It is worth explaining to the House, which I did not do before, that multiple records can obviously be held against the same individual, as the noble Lord will know.

On how we dealt with it, on the same day as the Home Office became aware of it, engineers put a stop to the automated process to ensure that no further deletions took place. All similar automatic processes have also been suspended. Earlier last week, Home Office civil servants and engineers worked very quickly to alert the police and other operational colleagues, and established a bronze, silver and gold command to manage the incident and co-ordinate a rapid response. The noble Lord will have heard me say to two previous speakers just what the process will be over the next few days.

Law Enforcement: Brexit Impacts

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Wednesday 6th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My right honourable friend Theresa May was probably right to give it qualified support. We have not seen how it will work yet. I am confident it will work well and I am sure that this House will scrutinise any deficiencies in the new arrangements. We have a very good package for the safety and security of the citizens of this country.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, real-time access to intelligence is crucial in the fight against serious organised crime and terrorism. Can the Minister assure the House that any reduced capability to access such information in a timely manner will not increase the risk level in the United Kingdom, thereby endangering UK citizens from January 2021?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, timely access and cross-border co-operation benefits not only the UK but the EU. The noble Lord talks about serious and organised crime, which knows no borders and is global. It is incumbent on all of us to work together to stem its flow.