Pre-charge Police Bail: Time Limit

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Wednesday 26th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I had a feeling that there might be an “I told you so” moment today. The noble Lord is absolutely right: he and others did question the length of time. However, I recall that I was quite clear at the time that we would review this and clearly it is time for review, hence the consultation and our intention to do something about it.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that this Question is very relevant to the subject of domestic abuse? She will know about the case of Kay Richardson, who was murdered by her estranged husband in Sunderland in 2018 after he had been released under investigation. He had a history of domestic abuse and she had reported him for rape. Under the previous provisions, he would have been bailed with conditions. The difficulty is that there are no conditions attached to releasing under investigation. There should be a power to release suspects under investigation where necessary with enforceable safe -guarding conditions. Does the Minister agree?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally recognise the point that the noble Lord makes about domestic abuse. Our proposals will ensure that bail is used in most domestic abuse and sexual offences where necessary and proportionate. The noble Lord makes a perfectly valid point.

Deaths in Police Custody

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Monday 30th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as a former president of the Police Superintendents’ Association. Does the Minister agree that the police service is often the agency of last resort, and that many people who find themselves in police custody should not be there and should be dealt with by other agencies? That is not the fault of the police, of course, and is often a matter of funding and resources in many other areas. Does she also agree that one of the difficulties is being open and honest with the public? Historically, the police service, like many organisations, has closed ranks. The police service needs to be far more open and honest with the public. I think it is moving this way and I hope that issue is addressed in the report. I like to see senior officers prepared to go on television and make statements. Obviously, they should not disclose everything as we do not want that to affect the judicial system or judicial process. However, it is gratifying to members of the public, particularly grieving families, if the police appear to be open, honest and transparent without, as I say, compromising an investigation. There is a lot to welcome in the report. As has been suggested, I hope that the Government implement its provisions as soon as possible.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Lord for his points about openness and honesty with the public. Quite often, the heartache of bereaved families is made worse by a feeling that perhaps people have not been open and honest with them. A theme runs through the Government’s response—and, indeed, through Dame Elish’s report itself—which talks about transparency in the whole process. Therefore I totally agree, as do the Government, with the noble Lord’s point.

The noble Lord also talked about police services as the agency of last resort. If I learned anything in local government, it was about the multiagency approach of services working together. Whether in the custody arena or in child protection, when agencies work together and place people appropriately, that starts to end this system of people literally being dumped in the first place that people think of. That particularly applies to people with mental health problems, which is why I was so keen all those years ago to see places of safety established, and I am very pleased now to see that wherever possible, no child or adult with a mental health problem will be placed in police custody.

Police: Pension Rights

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Tuesday 21st March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I agree with the noble Lord that, when the facts change, the Government change their mind. That is why in 2016, after decades of widows who remarry not being able to claim the survivor’s pension, the Government did indeed change their mind. The issue of retrospection is something about which no Government have changed their mind.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as a current police pensioner. I have often heard Ministers both in this House and in the other place, and indeed at conferences, committing the Government to giving priority to the victims of crime. Does the Minister agree that in homicide cases the definition of victim by necessity applies to the spouses and partners, in this case of police officers who have died in the line of duty? Is there not therefore a justified need to reflect that in the pension arrangements for those officers?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I certainly recognise the difficulties faced by the families of members of the Armed Forces, the police service and the fire service and how they could be seen as the indirect victims of crime themselves. The noble Lord talks about provisions for death in the line of duty. There most certainly are awards under the police injury benefit arrangements which ensure that higher benefits are payable when an officer is killed in certain circumstances. These are broadly if death resulted while seeking to apprehend a suspect, protecting life, or if the officer was targeted for the reason of being a police officer. I take this opportunity to recognise the incredible public service that police officers, fire officers and our Armed Forces make to public life.

National Identity Cards

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Tuesday 14th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

One of the reasons why the Conservative Party opposed identity cards was because of the civil liberties issue which the noble Lord outlined. However, he is absolutely right to point out that the Government should also always be mindful of privacy versus the advances in technology that such information can give us.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, given that most terrorists and professional criminals use multiple identities in committing crime, is it not self-evident that a biometric identity card would be an advantage in changing policy?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the biometric card would not be any more robust than some of the systems which we have in place. In fact, there is evidence that it is just as liable to counterfeiting as other methods.

Police National Database: Facial Images

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Thursday 2nd March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend talks about privacy. If everybody was required to put their passport photographs towards a national database there might be a real issue with privacy. What the Government are trying to do, and my noble friend alluded to it, is to have images on record of people previously convicted of a crime. The custody image review is attempting to get rid of the facial images of those who are not convicted—and I include myself in that. If you have a passport but have not been convicted, I am not sure what benefit your photograph could be to the police national database.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

Is this not a matter of balance? Does the Minister agree that the keeping of an innocent person’s image on a database is of far less consequence than being the innocent victim of a violent crime?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is absolutely right: it is a question of balance. It is a balance between enabling the police to do their job and to have a good database of criminals and those who have been convicted but also, as he says, if you are an innocent person, of not having your face on the database.

Passport Applications: Digitisation

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Wednesday 18th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, a dodgy selfie is one that does not meet the rigorous requirements of a passport photo.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, with the increasing threats of terrorism and of identity theft, does the Minister agree that the Question highlights the need for a proper biometric identity card?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The Government have rejected the idea of an identity card, but noble Lords will notice that when they go through passport gates now their face is compared with the photograph on the passport. The machines that do the face recognition, which is a form of biometrics, are very accurate indeed.

Hate Crime

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Tuesday 18th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I agree with the noble Lord, as I often do, that religious literacy in all aspects of society—particularly through the media—is incredibly important and something that schools can promote through PSHE. The Government have made a number of funding streams available in order for people to not only discuss what unites them in terms of their religions but celebrate what is different about them. That celebration is a good thing.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that one action the Government could take to possibly reduce hate crime is to make an early announcement that all those who were lawfully living here before Brexit are allowed to remain?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think the Government have made that quite clear: people who live here are quite welcome in this country and we will abide by our obligations, unless other EU states change their position.

Police: Officer Offences

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Thursday 19th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

I certainly do share the noble Baroness’s concern about that. The College of Policing, which was set up to raise standards in this very important area, has said that in all but the most exceptional circumstances it would not expect anybody with any conviction, except the most minor conviction perhaps committed in their youth, to be on the force. Therefore, the type of circumstances that the noble Baroness refers to should not arise. Of course, one issue is that, because of the particular legal entity of a police constable, it is a matter for the local constabulary to act upon that, and we very much hope that they will.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that when I joined the police service, many decades ago now, each applicant had to be fully vetted? As well as that, the applicant’s spouse and family were also vetted. I noticed recently that pass-holders on the Parliamentary Estate are also required to go through a similar strict vetting procedure. Does the Minister draw any conclusion from that?

[Lord Bates]

We draw the conclusion that that needs to be improved. We recognise that. That is one reason why the College of Policing has introduced a new code about how vetting is undertaken. At the moment, it is done on a constabulary by constabulary basis and there are differences. We want best practice across all constabularies. A new authorised, professional standard of vetting is being issued and is expected to be introduced across all the constabularies in the country.

Police: Cuts

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Wednesday 28th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

As the noble Lord will be aware, there is a National Crime Agency, an ongoing security and defence review of our capabilities, and a policing college, which is sharing best practice. In terms of what we believe, we share the view of Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary, which found that significant further savings were still to be made by reorganising the way in which services are delivered—by getting more co-operation between the blue line services and sharing back-office functions. There are ways of protecting the front line while making significant savings in administration. That is what the Inspectorate of Constabulary found and we agree with it.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords—

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords—

Police Federation (Amendment) Regulations 2015

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Wednesday 15th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I rise in support of the Motion moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Harris. I declare an interest as a former member of the Police Federation—which every officer is, as the noble Baroness said—and also as a former president of the Police Superintendents’ Association of England and Wales. It concerns me that a police service that is held in very high regard throughout the world is to some extent being trampled into the ground. The police service lost the right to take industrial action in 1919. It does not seek to have the right to strike, but since it does not have that right, it is entitled to expect fair treatment.

The Police Federation has not been perfect. It has made mistakes—we acknowledge that, and the police service will acknowledge that. However, this regulation goes a step too far, as the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, pointed out. It is probably reasonable to give officers the option of whether to join the Police Federation, which at the moment is not the case: it is a closed shop. Whether officers should have to pay dues is a difficult issue, because funding is critical for the federation to do its job of representing its members in legal cases and going round the country doing what it does.

Crucially, the police are in such a position that they have to be treated fairly by the Government. I know that there have been one or two skirmishes with the Government—I am thinking of Downing Street-gate, as it is called—and I hope that this is not simply revenge for that type of incident. The police service is far too important for this type of trivia to be brought upon the Police Federation with that purpose in mind.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Perhaps the reason why there was some confusion on my part is that that is how it works now. There is no change. The noble Lord is perhaps pursuing a line that is actually currently the way it works. Perhaps I can move on, given the lateness of the hour, and answer some of the other questions. I assure him once again that if there is anything I have missed, I will seek to write to cover those points.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, also asked whether an officer could still receive benefit if they choose not to pay a subscription, and whether it was in the gift of the federation to decide whether it supports non-paying members. Prior to this arrangement, it was possible for an officer to withhold payment of their subscription, and as a result they were entitled only to a limited number of benefits, dictated entirely by the federation. It is entirely in the gift of the federation to determine what benefits it would provide to members who opt out of paying subscriptions.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, said that the PFEW is unique, in that members can access services as soon as they opt in. Yes, the PFEW is unique and police officers cannot join a union. As I said in my main contribution, the PFEW is the only organisation they can join in the rank and file and it is absolutely right that police officers, who do a unique job, have arrangements that give them access to strong representation.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked what the reference to “each new member” meant in new Regulation 4A(b). The reference is to a new member of the police force, not to a new member of the PFEW. The noble Lord asked other questions and I will seek to review the comments that have been made.

The Government of course value the incredible contribution that police officers up and down the country make and the vital role they fulfil. The relationship between the Home Office and the police remains very strong. It is a constructive relationship, and as I have said on several occasions this evening, it is the Government’s view that it is important for the Police Federation to earn the confidence of officers in order to make the best use of members’ subscriptions and represent them with transparency and integrity. The changes made by the Police Federation (Amendment) Regulations 2015 will assist in that.

The noble Lord Mackenzie asked about the recent PFEW survey and evidence that government policy is leading to low morale among officers. I assure him and all noble Lords that the Government are determined to ensure that policing remains a rewarding, professional and respected career, and our reforms are certainly seeking to achieve just that. Part of that is ensuring that the Police Federation represents its members with both integrity and transparency. I have already spoken about the Government’s strong support for our police forces.

We believe that the changes made by the Police Federation (Amendment) Regulations 2015 will assist the federation in ultimately regaining the trust of its members and indeed the public.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate]

Before the Minister sits down, will he confirm that similar provisions do not apply to the Police Superintendents’ Association, which was established at exactly the same time in 1919? Will he also confirm that the Ministry of Defence Police Federation has a specific provision in its rules that says it will not provide assistance for people who join the organisation for any incident that applied prior to joining, which is exactly the opposite of what is going to apply to the national Police Federation?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I am sure that the noble Lord is well versed in what he has just quoted. In terms of confirming what he just said, I will write to him.