UN Framework Convention on Climate Change
Debate between Lord Lilley and Lord Barker of BattleWestminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Mr Lilley
The hon. Lady may seriously believe in the use of renewables in places where it is sensible to use them. If an area is a long way from the grid, it may be sensible to use a windmill or a solar panel, even though it will not provide light at night or electricity when the wind is not blowing.
Mr Lilley
If my right hon. Friend the Minister thinks that it is economic at present to store electricity in batteries, he is living in a dream world. That means that it will be not two times as expensive, as is the case with wind, or eight times as expensive, as is the case with solar, but more like 20 times as expensive if it is stored in batteries. If someone could develop storage for renewables, that would be wonderful; I would be grateful to him and he would be a great benefactor to humanity. However, I do not think that my right hon. Friend knows of such an invention.
Gregory Barker
My right hon. Friend is comparing two completely different things. He is talking about industrial-scale storage. As the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) said, the reality in the developing world is that most people require very small amounts of energy. Typically, they need it to use a laptop, a phone and possibly a refrigerator. Battery storage is not only viable, but happening at scale. There are nearly 500 million people in India off the grid, and hundreds of millions of people in Africa.
Mr Andrew Turner (in the Chair)
Order. I have two points. First, the intervention was too long. Secondly, Mr Lilley needs to bring his remarks closer to the subject.
Mr Lilley
I am merely explaining why the COP process is completely ridiculous and will not result in any agreement. We have this unrealistic agreement between the two Front-Bench speakers that the matter will be solved by installing a few wind turbines and solar panels in villages in Tanzania. India and China, in which effectively half the world’s population live, are industrialising. They are industrialising not by building a few windmills and solar panels, but by building nuclear—sometimes, but that is very expensive—coal above all and gas where they have it. Of course they will sometimes use renewables where it is appropriate and where an area is a long way from the grid, but let us not kid ourselves that because we have seen one windmill in Africa, the whole developing world will develop by means of renewables. If the two Front-Bench speakers, who are united in their lunacy, would like to tell me that that is seriously their belief and that they think the developing countries will grow primarily by harnessing renewables, I will give way to them.
Gregory Barker
I thank my right hon. Friend. The key point here is that we are not comparing shale gas in America with the opportunity for development in the developing world. We are comparing the marginal cost of a diesel generator for hundreds of millions of people in the developing world with a renewable alternative. In most cases, it is viable without any form of subsidy.
Gregory Barker
There is certainly a strong correlation between regulatory certainty and investor certainty, and lower cost of capital and the flowing of funds into those high-growth sectors. However, another canard that I have to shoot down is the idea that we live in an era of cheap fossil fuels and expensive renewables. Certainly, in the developing world, that is not true. I simply draw the attention of my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden to the fact that, between 2011 and 2014, India will spend $14.267 billion subsidising kerosene, LPG and natural gas. That is one of the largest elements in its national budget; it is largely responsible for the massive calls for structural reform in India, and it is seen as a brake on growth, because the country is subsidising not renewables, but fossil fuels. It is simply wrong to argue anything other, but nor is it an either/or choice.
Mr Lilley
The Minister is making an ineffective debating point. The Indians want their consumers to have cheap fuel at the point of purchase. That may be a misguided policy; it would not be one of the British Government’s, but they choose to subsidise the products that are already the cheapest, not those that are initially the most expensive. If wind and sun were cheaper, perhaps they would subsidise them, but the Minister cannot really pretend that wind is therefore cheaper, because they are subsidising other things.
Gregory Barker
No, but my right hon. Friend will know that last year, the wholesale cost of gas rose by 35%. The cost of renewables is consistently coming down. He will know that the cost of solar crashed in the past two years, and that in many cases, with high irradiation, such as in the developing world—
Gregory Barker
No, I am not. I am responding to my right hon. Friend’s point. The cost of fossil fuels in the developing world in the past two years has largely increased—in some cases, very substantially. The cost of renewables is coming down. That is why India has launched its national solar mission and why it is investing in wind. It is using the subsidy not simply to subsidise consumers for a product that they cannot afford, but as an investment to bring down the cost to the point that they can afford it. When the counterfactual is distributed diesel generators, often no subsidy at all is needed.
Small-scale generation is not some piffling irrelevance, as my right hon. Friend seemed to imply, but it is the reality for hundreds of millions of people in the developing world. Hundreds of millions in Africa and about 400 million in India do not have access to the grid and are not likely to get it any time soon. That is not just an economic imperative; it is a moral one as well. They are not sitting there wanting American-style fridge-freezers and huge cars; for them, a luxury is a light at night or a laptop, so that their kids can have an education or the most rudimentary internet access.
My right hon. Friend seems to think that the American economic model for shale gas is easily replicable in the rest of the world. It is not. If there is cheap gas to be had, we want it here, but it is not a binary world of black and white choices between renewables and fossil fuels.
Mr Lilley
I am overwhelmed by my right hon. Friend’s eloquence and verbosity. If he is saying that renewables are more economic than fossil fuels, that is wonderful—let us leave it to the market, and they will be adopted—but he cannot simultaneously say that we ought to be subsidising them and that they are already as cheap as or cheaper than fossil fuels.
Gregory Barker
Let me explain it one more time. Fossil fuels have been around for centuries. They have had plenty of time to develop, as I think my right hon. Friend will agree. I think that he may have worked, as I have, in the oil and gas industry before coming into politics. The fact is that continuing to supply oil and gas, LPG, petroleum and kerosene at scale to the Indian population requires a structural subsidy. We are not proposing a structural subsidy for renewables; subsidy is justifiable only in any circumstance if there is a chance of getting to a non-subsidised point. We should not subsidise any technology, whether renewable or fossil fuel, if all we are doing is pouring good money after bad. Subsidy for renewables can only be a short-term or at best a medium-term strategy.
Low-carbon Growth Links (China)
Debate between Lord Lilley and Lord Barker of BattleWestminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Mr Lilley
What is wrong with it is that such expertise has nothing to do with green exports. It is a delusion, and a deliberate delusion, to portray exports of expertise in oil and gas development as a green export. If the hon. Gentleman cannot see that, it takes my breath away.
Have we got the expertise in shale gas? We have not developed any shale gas in this country, onshore or offshore. So if we have expertise, it comes from operating in other countries and we may be able to transfer that to China, but again, it would not be a green export—although I can see that the Minister is about to tell me otherwise.
The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)
My right hon. Friend must take great credit for the fact that he presided over one of the largest single factors in Britain’s being able to meet its decarbonising targets, because he was in the Government during the dash for gas, and I would say that the single biggest factor that we could hope for in shifting China from its current carbon intensity is to shift it off coal and on to more gas. That would have a transformational impact in the way that the Government of which he was such an important part did here in the UK in the ’90s—[Interruption.] And it is a green export.
Mr Lilley
In following the previous Chairman’s admonition to us to keep interventions short, I have cut short the Minister’s intervention. The suggestion that we need to pursue at home policies to decarbonise our industry, in order to persuade the Chinese to use our expertise in oil and gas, defies all logic and I find it completely breathtaking. The argument seems to be that if we are to get these green jobs—the Minister has now reclassified exporting oil and gas expertise as a green job—we have to discourage the use of oil and gas at home. The mind boggles. The sheer, passionate desire of the Minister and, I am afraid, of some members of the Committee, not to face up to reality but to come up with every kind of spurious defence for a policy that simply does not hold water baffles me.
The truth is that we are, by imposing on our business high energy costs in the UK, driving business abroad, some of it to China. By subsidising the investment in solar panels and wind turbines, we are creating opportunities for China to export to the UK and we are probably creating green jobs in China. But let us not pretend that we are creating any green jobs for ourselves, or any opportunities to export to China, that would not exist if we simply abandoned all our climate change commitments in this country.
Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between Lord Lilley and Lord Barker of Battle
Gregory Barker
The hon. Lady is right and has a real point. The leasehold-freehold issue is one of the knottiest to tackle and has eluded successive Governments. I would be happy to sit down with her and look at that specific case to work out what more we can do to help the sorts of tenants to whom she refers.
Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con)
Will the Minister confirm that, even by his own contentious estimates purporting that thanks to his measures the average effect of reduced energy use will offset the increase due to green levies, taxes and subsidies, two-thirds of households will be worse off? Since giving those figures, the Government’s estimates of savings from energy-saving measures have been reduced.
Gregory Barker
I am afraid I just do not agree with my right hon. Friend, despite his considerable experience and knowledge of the sector. None of us knows for sure whose forecasts are right, and we will not know until the time. A great deal of uncertainty is attached to all forecasts, but the latest Government forecasts to 2020 show that consumers will be better off due to our policies.
Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between Lord Lilley and Lord Barker of Battle(11 years, 4 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Gregory Barker
I can assure my hon. Friend that there is a unanimous view among DECC Ministers. We think there is significant merit in a target, but the right time to decide whether we should set one and what it should be will be when we set the fifth carbon budget, which has to be done by June 2016. I reiterate that investor certainty, which was not there before we published the Bill, is now there in spades. I think we can all move forward and look to a future full of investment in a very exciting sector.
Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con)
My UK energy app tells me that of the electricity generated in this country and lighting us, nearly 80% comes from burning hydrocarbons, 16% from nuclear power and, despite all those windmills onshore and offshore, a derisory 1.3% from wind power. Is it credible to suggest that over the next 18 years we will have replaced all that hydrocarbon and our ageing power stations with windmills, or will we just have black-outs?
Gregory Barker
My right hon. Friend points out that we inherited an appalling level of renewables deployment. We are now changing that very quickly, but he is quite wrong to think that we are seeking to place the entire UK capacity with renewables alone. Nuclear will play a strong role and there will be a big role for gas in the future. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said, what we need is a diverse, clean energy mix and that includes a range of technologies. Perhaps my right hon. Friend will be slightly less afraid of the future than he seems to be at the moment.
Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between Lord Lilley and Lord Barker of Battle
Gregory Barker
We are absolutely committed to giving consumers a good deal, which involves a high range of competition, new entrants and more choice. This is not some Stalinist five-year plan; this is a brand new market. It is perfectly valid to suggest that there should be subsidised interest rates, but let us hear how the Labour party is going to pay for that and how much Labour is going to put on consumer bills. We have a proposal for targeted support from the green investment bank, but the hon. Lady’s blanket approach, which does not understand economics, would be very costly for everybody and force up bills for families.
Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con)
8. What comparison he has made of the potential capital cost of meeting the Government’s 2020 renewable target using wind power backed up by open-cycle gas plants and meeting the same level of electricity demand using combined-cycle gas plants.
Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between Lord Lilley and Lord Barker of Battle
Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con)
2. What assessment he has made of the procedures adopted by the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change for its fifth assessment report.
The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)
The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change recently revised its procedures in response to an independent review by the InterAcademy Council. The revisions address the key recommendations of the review and put the IPCC in a stronger position to prepare its fifth assessment report, but there is absolutely no room for complacency.
Mr Lilley
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his answer, which none the less remains complacent. When the InterAcademy Council reported, it proposed radical reforms that would
“fundamentally reform IPCC’s management structure while enhancing its ability to conduct an authoritative assessment”,
and criticised IPCC authors for reporting
“high confidence in some statements for which there is little evidence.”
Most of the InterAcademy Council’s recommendations have been rejected, however. Why are the Government not pressing for them to be implemented?
Gregory Barker
My right hon. Friend will know that, as a result of the reform procedures, an executive committee has been formed and a new conflict of interest policy has been created. The communications strategy has also been elaborated on much more strongly. I accept that this is by no means perfect, but we now have much greater faith in the IPCC and we look forward to seeing its fifth report.
Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between Lord Lilley and Lord Barker of Battle
Gregory Barker
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We must maintain our global leadership position, not only because it is important for tackling dangerous climate change, but because we want to grab market share in the new clean technology markets around the world, which are growing fast. We need to assert our leadership in the low-carbon markets, and to do so we need an ambitious policy to drive it at home.
Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con)
When my hon. Friend heard Lord Adair Turner spell out his fourth five-year plan, was he, like me, reminded of the old Soviet planning system? I am sure that if anyone could have made the Soviet Gosplan system work it would have been him. Will my hon. Friend treat with great caution forecasts 15 years ahead for the costs to which we are committed, given that the Barclays and Accenture plan reckons that meeting current targets for 2020 will cost €3 trillion?
Gregory Barker
Clearly there is a huge investment agenda, and my right hon. Friend is right, but we see that as an opportunity as well as a cost. He will also know that the cost of doing nothing and standing by while climate change hits the world progressively through this century will be considerably greater than prudent early action.
Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between Lord Lilley and Lord Barker of Battle(13 years, 2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Gregory Barker
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, and that is why we are moving very quickly indeed and expect to publish the consultation in March. There is no reason for anyone involved in the community schemes that he advocates to be unduly concerned. We are very lucky that capital costs, installation costs and financing costs have all fallen quickly, and we must ensure that the taxpayer gets good value for money.
Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend see any inconsistency between the position of the Secretary of State, who earlier claimed that the Government were doing their best to keep oil and energy prices down, and his support for a tariff that, according to his own costings, means that energy costs 20 times as much as when it comes from conventional sources? Will his review consider the experience of the Dutch Government, who have just scrapped a similar scheme, the German Government, who have limited entry to their scheme, and the Spanish Government, who have nearly been bankrupted by theirs?
Gregory Barker
I think I can reassure my right hon. Friend that his concerns are misplaced, and that the ministerial team is absolutely united in supporting an ambitious roll-out of renewables. The current feed-in tariff scheme for microgeneration would add something like £8 to the total energy bill of the average household by 2030, which means that it is not getting out of control in any way, shape or form. However, we have to be prudent.
Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between Lord Lilley and Lord Barker of Battle(13 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Gregory Barker
I certainly will. It sounds like an excellent initiative, and the hon. Lady will know that despite the catastrophic deficit that we inherited, early on we made £150 million extra available for skills. She is absolutely right that skills and retraining are vital, and I would be delighted to learn more about that institution. Perhaps one day I might be able to visit.
Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con)
Given that the Government’s own impact assessment of the feed-in tariffs to which the Minister referred earlier shows that the costs exceed the benefits by a factor of 20, wasting £8 billion of taxpayers’ money, how does that fit in with the comprehensive spending review? Have green policies been exempted from it and become a form of financial self-flagellation?
Gregory Barker
Not when I last checked.
I am afraid there is a fundamental difference of approach between the coalition and my right hon. colleague. [Hon. Members: “Colleague?”] My right hon. Friend. I beg his pardon. The feed-in tariffs have to be seen as a key element of our policies to drive a decentralised energy revolution. If we decentralise energy production, it will have a large number of knock-on effects. It will engage communities and householders, who will become more responsible in the energy economy and take up opportunities that are currently not available to them in an old, 20th-century style of energy provision.