Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2023

Debate between Lord Lennie and Lord Teverson

Monday 20th November 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, perhaps I may make a few comments in front of the crowd here. I welcome the SI generally , obviously, and want to try to ensure that it works properly. I have a couple of specific questions.

I am interested in understanding how the free allocations were allocated or what the baseline was for the airlines. Also, in the scheme as a whole, what proportion of units are free issue these days? I would be very interested to hear that for the current period, which I think goes up to 2026.

The Minister referred to the UK ETS as the cornerstone of ambition in terms of net zero, but of course, that cornerstone is crumbling at the moment. I would be very interested to hear, more strategically, how the Minister sees the fall in the carbon price per tonne, which has moved this year from around £100 at one point down to under £50.

To me, that seems to be, in the words of Energy UK, a major disincentive to investment in the renewables sector. As I understand it, it has threatened the Treasury to the tune of £1 billion so far this year and will mean a hit of something like £3 billion on the Treasury per annum if that price continues. As we know, there is also a threat from the European Union’s move to a carbon border adjustment mechanism—particularly in 2026, when those measures will really start to bite. There is a feeling that UK industry’s exports to the European Union could be threatened by some £500 million per year if that price remains as it is. I want to know the Minister’s understanding of why the price has fallen so much. My economics A-level tells me that, with supply and demand, when demand stays roughly the same but the price goes down, there is an all-round surplus in the supply of those units. However, there is also a volatility there, perhaps through a lack of liquidity in the scheme as a whole.

Looking again at the trade and co-operation agreement, particularly the area of energy in 2025, I would be interested to understand whether this is an opportunity to bring those trading schemes more together again, which was a target that the Government sought to achieve when that agreement was first made. Clearly, the fall in price strongly affects the renewables and clean energy industries. It seems to me that, not just from a Treasury point of view but from an industry and net zero point of view, we need to get that price back up again. I would be interested to hear the Minister’s comments on how that can be achieved—or indeed whether the Government wish to achieve it.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, when the UK ETS was established due to the UK’s participation in the EU ETS ending, the Opposition supported it. It is essential that the UK has a robust carbon price to help reduce emissions. So when the UK ETS was launched, we expressed a preference for a link with the EU ETS. Indeed, the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement states that both parties

“shall give serious consideration to linking”,

which would lower the cost of decarbonisation through more price efficiency discovery and easier trade. Most importantly, it would ensure that UK exports of high-carbon products to the EU are exempt from the EU’s carbon border adjustment mechanism. This remains our preference, to support UK businesses in remaining competitive and retaining trade access to critical markets. Can the Minister tell the Committee whether an update on any such consideration is still being considered? Can he also say whether the Government have made any projections on the impact that the CBAM will have on our exports? What is welcome is the seriousness with which the Government are treating this while we remain unliked.

I turn to the instrument itself, which amends the ETS in five areas; I will touch on each of them but do not oppose any of them. As these changes do not seem simply to be updates on the system, I am keen to hear from the Minister how foreseeable the situations that led to them were and what impact the delay in implementing them, from when the UK ETS was established, has had.

First, as we heard from the Minister, the instrument implements a cap on the maximum amount of free allocation that aircraft operators are eligible to receive at 100% of their verified emissions. Not only does this seem to be common sense but, for the next two years, by 2021’s figures, it will save around a fifth by putting an end to overallocations in the sector. That is welcome. Again, by 2021’s numbers, this will prevent around £100 million of potential profits from operators selling these overallocations. Do the Government have any projection for 2024-25 or are the figures on pounds and percentage of emissions expected to be roughly the same? Going back to the first question, could this not have been seen from the start, or was it by design?

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Lennie and Lord Teverson

Consideration of Commons amendments
Tuesday 24th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I too congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, on her persistence in this area. One of the strong messages that came out between Committee and Report in this House was the slow progress, and lack of progress, on community schemes. I very much hope that this consultation will reverse that trend. It seems slightly ironic, though typical, that the objection from the Commons is on there being a timetable, whereas we all know that for anything to happen, you need a timetable to focus.

On these Benches we are now keen to get this Bill on the statute book and that it becomes an Act. It has been delayed a number of times, mainly from the government side, as it has progressed through both Houses. There are a lot of important parts of this Bill that need to happen. I very much hope that the future systems operator will be quickly nominated and can move into action, so that a number of the strategic bottlenecks that we have in our energy sector can be swept away and solved. Again, I thank the noble Baroness for her persistence in this area, and I hope that consultation will move to action very quickly.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, for her persistence on this. I agree with what she is trying to achieve. The Minister came dangerously close to Rumsfeld-speak when he effectively said that we cannot know the unknowables. All that we and the amendment were suggesting was that a report needs to come forward and then we can determine how we need to act, which seems entirely sensible.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Teverson: it is time that the Bill got on to the statute book. The Bill has been far too long in digestion. Let us hope we can now eat it all and enjoy its flavour.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Lennie and Lord Teverson

3rd reading
Monday 24th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, this huge Bill leaves the House in far better shape than when it arrived. A combination of Labour, the Liberal Democrats, other parties, individuals and, most importantly, Cross-Benchers have secured measures that should see ISOP’s independence assured, community energy export markets develop, warmer homes and an efficiency plan to achieve that, the Gas and Electricity Markets Authority strengthened, and the ceasing of any further coal mining in this country—thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. It is to be hoped that the Government will support these changes in the other place and will not bring this Bill back for ping-pong. The range of supporters across the House should be sufficient to convince the Minister to back the changes to the Bill made by this House.

In the meantime, my thanks go to the Minister—remarkably, he has stayed the course while his Government have changed leadership three times and his Secretary of State twice since we began in September 2022—and his advisers from BEIS, and subsequently DESNZ, who have continually briefed and been available to answer questions and clarify intentions as we wended our way through this tome of a Bill.

My appreciation goes to my noble friend Lady Blake for her continuing support and to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, on the Liberal Democrat Benches, with whom it has been a pleasure to work on the Bill. My thanks are also due to a number of Back-Benchers and Cross-Benchers, mainly drawn from the Peers for the Planet group, particularly including the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman, Lady Boycott, Lady Bennett and Lady Worthington—sadly temporarily departed from this House—and my noble friend Lord Whitty. Thanks also go to the House staff and the doorkeepers for arrangements during delays in advancement of the progress of the Bill, which were not of their making, and for keeping the quick-quick-slow dance rhythm to the Energy Bill.

My biggest thanks go to the remarkable Milton Brown in Labour’s legislative team of advisers for always being up to date with the progress of the Bill, for his liaison with the other place and for his political briefings and judgment, which allowed my noble friend Lady Blake and me to keep focused on this Bill over a long period. We wish it well on the next stage of its journey.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, one of the things that strikes me most about the passage of the Bill through this House is that it is has been the opposition parties saying to the Government, “Get on with it. We actually need this Bill through to give the powers that we need to meet decarbonisation and modernise the energy production system in this country”. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, that the amendments that have been made by this House are absolutely in line with the Government’s decarbonisation objectives. I hope that the Commons, as well as the Government themselves, will consider them as positive rather than negative.

I will not go through the long list of other Peers named by the noble Lord, Lord Lennie. What I will do is to say a great deal of thanks to Peers for the Planet for its work in the House, to the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, and to the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, whom I have enjoyed working with very much indeed. From our own offices, I thank Sarah Pughe and Sarah Dobson.

We look forward very much to not having to play ping-pong on this Bill. Maybe that is too much to hope for but I thank the Ministers, the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, for their co-operation during the passage of the Bill. I also thank their teams. I look forward most of all to the Bill being implemented, so that the country as a whole can move ahead in its aims and objectives.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Lennie and Lord Teverson

Report stage
Monday 17th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, Amendment 59 is about the independent systems operator and planner, which we know as the future system operator. I have three amendments in this group—Amendments 59, 61 and 62—and I shall briefly speak to all of them. It is a big gap in the Bill as written at the moment that the so-called independent systems operator and planner is not actually independent in any way, which is why this amendment is down. I also very much support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lennie. For the ISOP to be independent, I believe it is fundamental that it needs to have an independent revenue stream. That is why my Amendment 61 would enable it to raise its own money; it should not come through Ofgem. We all know that the person who pays the piper calls the tune, and the future system operator needs to be independent of Ofgem. Lastly, Amendment 59 would ensure that the ISOP is a public body. I beg to move.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, my understanding is that the Minister will confirm the Government’s support for an independent ISOP, as suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and this being the case, we know no longer need to divide the House on our amendments. So, rather than listening to me putting forward the argument in favour of achieving this, I think we would be better served to listen to the Minister in his reasoning for an independent ISOP: I thank him for his time over the weekend, when we reached this position.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I certainly echo the question that the noble Baroness asked about the timing of the boiler scheme. There has been a big debate in the past on the use of frying oil, and getting the fiscal measures and the subsidy right so that it can be used as a transport fuel. Those arguments went on for a long time. However, I believe that there needs to be fiscal-incentive neutrality between the different types of renewable fuels, whether they are used within transport or indeed off grid.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, I will briefly thank my noble friend Lord Berkeley for this amendment, which is asking the Government to introduce renewable liquid heating fuel obligations that mirror the renewable transport fuel obligations as a choice available for decarbonising heating. I do not know—perhaps the Government know—whether there is any reason why they cannot accept this proposal, given that these fuels can be produced and distributed using industrial facilities that seem to already exist, and in turn using local raw materials, making it possible to diversify the energy base of the country in order to keep moving forward and achieve energy independence. Would it work? If so, why not give it the go-ahead?

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Lennie and Lord Teverson

Report stage
Tuesday 28th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, perhaps for the purpose of the whole of Report, I should declare my interest at chair of Aldustria Ltd, which is concerned with battery storage.

I liked the speech by the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, today, as well as the speeches he gave on the levelling-up Bill debate yesterday evening. There is an important need for an understandable programme that moves us forward—a route map that works, rather than just targets and slogans. Of course, we will have Green Day on Thursday. When the Minister replies, could he give us a few clues as to what will be said then? The House would be all ears and grateful for the advance information. I thought that the net-zero report, commissioned by the Government and produced by his honourable colleague, Chris Skidmore MP, was an excellent document. I hope that the Government can say that we will be moving ahead in a comprehensive way in much of the area under discussion.

I will speak mainly about the three amendments that we have around Ofgem. It is just stark staringly obvious that Ofgem, our regulator for the energy industry, should have a net-zero objective. I cannot see how you can argue against that, for all the reasons that the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman and Lady Altmann, have gone through so well. If there was one example of that to me, it is that Ofgem has clearly been very effective in its own mind at making decisions for customers of today but has been utterly unable to make decisions for customers of future generations. That area of the grid is now utterly incapable of delivering; whether it is offshore, onshore or developments on the residential side, those connections and that grid are unable to help us to move towards those net-zero objectives. On connection dates, I know one of 2035, which just happens to be the year when the Government’s target is to have finished decarbonising the electricity grid. Clearly we are not going to make that unless we move it forward very quickly, and I have concerns that we will already not be able to meet it.

The Minister and others in his position have said, all the time, “This is not necessary—it is already covered.” However, those examples already given by the noble Baronesses in the debate show that the directions and the objectives that the Government now have are not sufficient, and that this needs to change. We need to change it now, otherwise our decarbonisation of the grid by 2035, let alone net zero by 2050, will be missed. That cannot be allowed; these amendments must be part of the Bill.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, my thanks to noble Lords who have spoken in the debate: the noble Lords, Lord Ravensdale and Lord Teverson, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman, Lady Altmann and Lady Bennett. I will quickly review what I think they said and set out our amendment.

The noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, set out the principal purpose for the Bill. Split in four ways, it will: increase energy systems’

“resilience and reliability … support the delivery of the UK’s climate change commitments … reform the UK’s energy system while minimising costs to consumers and protecting them from unfair pricing”,

and improve the overall efficiency of the UK energy system and economy. It also requires an annual report to Parliament on the above. The first three of those points are lifted directly from the opening paragraph of the Explanatory Notes, while the fourth is also an objective of the ISOP simply made wider.

Labour tabled an amendment in Committee, and I will remind noble Lords of its contents. The context of that was, at that time, the cost of living crisis; the energy price cap was going up to £3,549 per year. National Energy Action predicted that the number of UK households in fuel poverty would rise to 8.9 million. Tory leadership candidates at that time were vying for leadership to be Prime Minister but were running away from the issue of net zero; the High Court found that the net-zero climate strategy was inadequate, and the Climate Change Committee found that credible plans existed for only 39% of emissions, citing “major policy failures” and “scant evidence of delivery”. As regards energy security at that time, gas prices were expected to surge to record highs the week after the Nord Stream 1 pipeline was shut down, and European prices had risen by nearly 400% over the past year. The UK relies on gas for about 40% of its power generation, and even more on the coldest days when demand is high and wind generation tends to be low. In 2017, a BEIS report included a scenario for a complete cut-off of Russian gas and found that the UK could see “significant unmet demand” if the cut was prolonged and continental European countries paid whatever was necessary.

However, the Bill is a hotchpotch of things thrown together, lacking an overarching theme to tackle these issues. Our amendments would have set out a purpose for the Act, increasing resilience and reliability; supporting the delivery of UK’s climate change commitments; reforming energy systems; binding the Secretary of State and public authorities to these purposes; requiring the Secretary of State to designate a statement as a strategy and policy statement with regard to the purpose of the Act; and requiring the Secretary of State to review the strategy and policy statement on a five-year basis. That would have forced successive Governments into long-term thinking about the specific purpose, not limiting the impact and ambition of the Bill to what has been tacked together, which simply does not go far enough or tackle the immediate problems.

The amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, would place gas and electricity markets under a duty to assist in the delivery of net zero, and our amendment would require the Secretary of State to designate a statement giving GEMA a mandate for considering the role of energy in supporting government policy in achieving net zero. The amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, would include in Ofgem’s general duties a specific requirement to have regard to meeting the UK’s net-zero emissions.

Briefing from RenewableUK sets out the argument for Ofgem remit reform. It states:

“Ofgem’s remit has not changed since its establishment in 2000, and does not prioritise electricity decarbonisation”—


in line with recent government legislation or stated ambitions. It has only a consideration of greenhouse reduction. It continues:

“As a result, Ofgem has been unable to substantially reform its working practices and regulatory frameworks in response to the 2008 Climate Change Act and the UK’s subsequent net zero ambition, to detriment of renewable energy investment and decarbonisation pace.”


It goes on to say that the Government have an opportunity to reform Ofgem’s remit in the Bill we are addressing today.

There is some key evidence for that. Mike Thompson, the Climate Change Committee’s chief economist, noted the integration of energy with transport and heat, including the potential for

“cars sitting on driveways acting as batteries and putting electricity back into the grid”.

He argued that there is a

“need for real integration and a regulator that can think from a systems perspective”,

suggesting that hydrogen and heat networks should be within Ofgem’s remit.

Jonathan Brearley, chief executive of Ofgem, said:

“Planning the system and setting how it evolves should not really be done by the regulator. The regulator’s job is to make sure that that is done efficiently and effectively by the companies concerned.”


We appreciate that argument.

A number of witnesses told the committee that the net-zero target should be included explicitly within Ofgem’s statutory duties. Dr Hardy said that he would

“put net zero up top”,

balancing out its other duties against the context of

“hitting that legislated carbon target”.

Professor Mitchell said that

“net zero has to be the raison d’être of Ofgem”

and argued that

“delivering on legally enshrined commitments to decarbonise”

should form part of Ofgem’s principal duty.

The committee concluded:

“To ensure that, on an enduring basis, the appropriate focus is given to net zero within its competing priorities, we recommend that Ofgem’s duties should be amended to include explicit reference to having due regard to the net zero target. While Ofgem maintains that net zero considerations already factor into its decision-making, adding net zero explicitly to its statutory duties will serve to make this clear.”


We feel that the UK needs not to be left behind but to show similar ambition in its plans for the future of the electricity industry, including Ofgem’s remit.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I also have great concern about this amendment. It seems to me that, on renewable transport fuels, we have a government amendment, in a group of some 20 amendments or more, that changes the taxonomy in the UK, exactly as was said by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, and the definition of a renewable fuel. I do not think that is particularly good practice; it is the wrong way to do this. I hope that the Commons, when this goes down the other end, will debate it rather more, because it requires a lot more thought.

I can get my head around the nuclear bit with hydrogen, which has now been well explained to me. I was trying to understand this amendment, I must admit, before the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, spoke, but whether it is renewable or not is a debate to be had. I do not have quite such an issue over that, maybe, but it needs to be debated fully. What I have a problem with is more the carbon side, because what we are talking about is no different from energy from waste. Energy from waste is one of the dirtiest forms of energy that is produced. It has other benefits—it does not produce landfill and all that sort of side—but it is not, in any description, a renewable fuel. So I too have great reservations about this amendment. Clearly I am not going to oppose it here today, but I very much hope that the other end of the building will give this much greater scrutiny and see it as a major decision around the taxonomy of renewable fuels and renewable energy when the Bill reaches there.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, this amendment would allow two other low-carbon fuels to be supported under the existing and forthcoming renewable transport fuel schemes. As we have heard, these are recycled carbon fuels and nuclear-derived fuels. While the noble Lord has created a degree of happiness with the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, some unhappiness still exists around the Chamber. These fuels can provide similar carbon emissions savings to the renewable fuels already considered under these schemes. Furthermore, these fuels are crucial for the production of sustainable aviation fuel, which is imperative to achieving the jet zero strategy and fulfilling the forthcoming sustainable aviation fuel mandate.

I will not speak for long on this, because we want to move on, but this amendment would insert a new clause in Chapter 3 of Part 3 of the Bill, providing for recycled carbon fuel and fuel derived from nuclear energy to be treated as renewable transport fuel. Amendment 74, in the name of my noble friend Lord Whitty, would make it clear that the regulator needs to ensure that consumers of heat networks have equivalent consumer protection to those of other suppliers. The Explanatory Notes say of Clause 166:

“This clause provides that GEMA will be the regulator for heat networks in England, Wales and Scotland. The Secretary of State may introduce regulations to appoint a different regulator by affirmative procedure. The regulator in Northern Ireland will be the Northern Ireland Authority for Utility Regulation (NIAUR) subject to a similar power to make changes by secondary legislation.”


I think that is something we can all agree with.

Energy Bill Relief Scheme (Non-Standard Cases) Regulations 2023

Debate between Lord Lennie and Lord Teverson

Monday 30th January 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, again, this instrument came into force on 12 January and we are now more or less into February. Can the Minister remind us when the scheme ends, because we must be getting quite close to that?

I have only one question on this, and I will not ask the one about prosecution, because these are large amounts of money; I would have thought it was more important. According to the Explanatory Note on page 11,

“Regulations 3 and 4 provide the Secretary of State with a power to obtain information about the supply of gas or electricity to persons who are or may be eligible for assistance under the Scheme.”


I am interested in whether the Minister’s officials have done that, and how they found it.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, this requires energy providers to share information with the Government, such as meter readings and contract agreements, to allow BEIS to ensure that appropriate relief can be passed on to businesses that are not eligible for the energy bill relief scheme because their energy is supplied by the grid, not from a licensed supplier. The current energy bill relief scheme, announced in September, comes to an end in March 2023. It supports businesses and public sector organisations such as schools and hospitals, and so on, by providing the discount on wholesale gas and electricity prices.

First, this instrument applies only until March 2023; it has been in effect since September without this information. How much relief has not gone to the relevant businesses in this time period? What impact will this error have had on these businesses and how long will it take the Government to gather this information, analyse it and enact the required changes?

The Government have announced a new energy bills discount scheme, the EBDS, from April 2023 to April 2024 for eligible non-domestic customers in Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Is the error that occurred in the original scheme now fixed so that, from day one, the EBDS will be fully effective?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

They are not even fined; they just get the money back plus the interest.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

I agree; there is no penalty at all. They just have to pay back the money to the individual that they should have paid in the first place, plus a bit of additional assistance.

Energy Bills Support Scheme and Alternative Fuel Payment Pass-through Requirement (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2023

Debate between Lord Lennie and Lord Teverson

Monday 30th January 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for going through yet another of these SIs. I am sure he will not mind if I ask him some just and reasonable questions about it.

First, I note that the measure came into force on 12 January, so it is already in place. Obviously, it is administered, to a degree, by the energy companies, but who is policing it? Is it the Northern Ireland civil servants, or is it BEIS directly? I would be interested to understand that. If it is Northern Ireland officials, are we confident that sufficient management governance will take place from here?

I welcome that the Government and the department have spoken at length to consumer organisations in Northern Ireland. I am interested to understand whether there have been any complaints yet of end-users not receiving this when they feel that they should have, to get some idea of how well it is working.

The Minister talked about the method of civil law, and having fines—plus, generously, an interest-rate benefit if people manage to get through a whole court process. We have said before that it is very unlikely that much of that would happen, but, if an intermediary ignored the need under this legislation to pass on those payments, would the Government have the ability to prosecute that person? I can imagine there being a certain number of landlords who will just think, “No one’s looking at me, there’s not a lot of publicity about this, I’ll just keep the money”. I would be interested to understand whether there is, at the end of the day, a criminal long-stop prosecution ability in terms of fraud and so on. Also, will the Minister say how many more SIs around these schemes are still to come?

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing this scheme. If he feels a bit of déjà-vu, it is because we have already been here. We discussed this on the UK scheme. This scheme is to ensure that support provided to intermediaries on behalf of the end-user in the energy bill support scheme and the alternative fuel payment in Northern Ireland must be passed to the intended recipients. This is welcome and important, but there are questions about what difference the instrument will make to intermediaries if they do not do it.

The Explanatory Memorandum states:

“Relevant intermediaries are any individual that is party to a domestic electricity contract … and passes on the costs of the energy supplied under this contract to an end user of the energy supplied … Intermediaries should pass on the discount irrespective of how the end user pays for their energy use … If an intermediary does not pass through the whole of the scheme benefit provided to them, then they must demonstrate to the end user that the amount they are passing on is just and reasonable, including taking into account the extent to which the intermediary’s charges to end users reflect the increased cost of energy as a result of the energy crisis.”


The Minister said that intermediaries include landlords. They do indeed, but they also include sublets, student accommodation, social housing providers, local authorities, site owners, site managers, marinas for onshore power, combined heat and power operators, electric vehicle charging operators and other residential building managers. It is possible for an intermediary also to be an end-user because they can live in the scheme that they manage. Given the variety and range of intermediaries and the complexity of this calculation, will it have any impact on the number of intermediaries that do or do not pass the benefits through?

The Explanatory Memorandum also states:

“The intermediary must, within 30 days of a scheme benefit being provided, provide information to the end user in writing ... The intermediary must ensure the end user receives the pass-through amount as soon as reasonably practicable ... Where an intermediary fails to effect a pass-through to which an end user is entitled, that end user may recover the amount from the intermediary as a civil debt.”


How many end users will be aware of this? How many will know about this scheme at all? If I am a landlord, is it worth the risk of not passing it on and sitting and waiting to see what happens? If I do not get any orders to justify, I can just keep the funds. It is a small amount of money to a court—a maximum of £600—but to a landlord who may have multiple lettings, it can be a considerable amount of money. Do the Government expect end users will do this for £600? Will fees make it not worth while for them to do it? How will intermediaries be disincentivised from taking this gamble? There is no penalty if you are found not to have passed on the money. Intermediaries are just ordered to pass on the funds in the scheme, plus 2% above interest rates. It does not seem to be a huge gamble that the intermediary might be taking. Will the Government not be enforcing this in any way? As the SLSC said, there is inequality of arms. It almost encourages intermediaries to take a chance, and the victims are the tenants and the end-payers of the scheme.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Lennie and Lord Teverson

Committee stage
Monday 16th January 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I shall be brief. When I first read this clause I assumed it was effectively to give permission to go out to sea from land, like some coal mines. I am interested to know whether that was the Government’s intention.

I was also quite interested that the site has to be partly in territorial waters. Territorial waters go out to 12 nautical miles, so that seems to suggests that it does not. I wonder why there is the stipulation that the site has to be partly in territorial waters. It seems to me that if this is done it really needs to be within territorial waters. I have no other questions.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, I will also be brief. I do not want to provoke another debate—two hours on this would be unnecessary. We are all doing our bit by keeping this Room at low temperature in terms of this debate. I do not know whether they can turn the heat up a bit, as I think that would be helpful to all of us.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Lennie and Lord Teverson

Committee stage
Monday 19th December 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

I shall speak to just this amendment and be fairly brief. It would ensure that the Gas and Electricity Markets Authority was designated as the regulator for heat network zones. Those zones are fundamental to the scale of expansion necessary to achieve net zero. As we heard before, this in turn depends on local authorities having the right resources to deliver their responsibilities effectively. The amendment would ensure that the Secretary of State delegates to GEMA its authority status to act as regulator in this regard, as already described for heat networks. Essentially, they should expand them in the most efficient manner possible if we are to achieve net zero. Given Ofgem’s regulatory responsibility for zoning, as well as for the networks themselves, this would ensure a joint approach to get the best out of heat networks.

While the devil may be in the detail of the regulations themselves—we have heard about some of that already—the Opposition support the proposals in this group of amendments. Essentially, they are adaptable to changes. Monitoring and adapting to market changes will be vital, and we support the amendments in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Teverson and Lord Ravensdale, to which they will speak shortly. I beg to move.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, we move on to the zoning regulations. I very much agree with the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Lennie. When I read through this section, I must admit that I found it extremely opaque in many ways. I will come to my own amendments in a minute, but perhaps the Minister can explain a few things to me. Clause 174(2) says:

“A heat network zone is an area in England”.


I presume that means that this is just English legislation, not for the rest of the United Kingdom, but it is very unspecific about what a network zone would be. I had assumed that it would be a single zone or single heating system, but it obviously is not. I am interested to hear from the Minister what a zone is likely to be in practice.

We then have a zone authority. Clause 175(1) states:

“Zones regulations may designate a person to act as the Heat Network Zones Authority”.


Again, as the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, pointed out, we have very vague ideas as to who this should be. I am interested to hear again from the Minister who the authority is expected to be.

Then we move on to zone co-ordinators. Who are they and what exactly do they do in comparison with the zone authority? Of course, in Clause 175(5), we have a list defining local authorities. I was delighted to see the Council of the Isles of Scilly, which I have represented in the past, there—all 2,000 souls are represented in that list. I would be really interested to understand from the Minister how all this works. Clause 175(4) says that the

“Regulations … may make provision for the Authority to require a local authority, or two or more local authorities”,


so it seems to me a very complicated landscape. I would be interested to understand how that jigsaw fits together.

Two of my amendments would change “may” to “must”; I just cannot see how it could remain “may” in those two places. The main thrust of my arguments is in Amendments 165 and 166. They are about making sure that the regulations are in line not only with the strategy and policy statement—which we have referred to many times already regarding the text of the Bill—but with, in particular, local authorities’ net-zero plans. A huge number of local authorities, as I know the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, has pointed out, now have net-zero objectives and plans to back them up. We should give credit to that and include it in the Bill. My Amendment 166 is very much on the same area of the delivery of heat networks within zones and how they fit in with local net-zero energy systems.

As I said, it would be really useful to everybody to understand how this geography is meant to work. I suppose my question is: is this just too complicated or is there some logical method here that does not get in the way, and does not create a bureaucracy that gets in the way, of these systems?

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Lennie and Lord Teverson

Committee stage
Monday 12th December 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome the Bill’s return to Committee; I am very pleased that that is the case. I have no comments to make on the amendments, but I note that during that interregnum, as the Minister described it, the Government gave planning permission for a coal mine. Although we are not going to debate it here today, that is a hugely retrograde decision which flies in the face of the Bill and the general way in which it looks forward. However, I have no comments on the amendments that the Minister has tabled.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, I am also delighted to be debating the Energy Bill again. I am delighted that the noble Lord is still the Minister so that we at least have continuity on the Bill; it remains much the same as it was before we left it some three months ago.

As the Minister said, the amendments refer to Clauses 84 and 85 of Chapter 2 of Part 2 on “Decommissioning of carbon storage installations”. This gives the Secretary of State a power to make regulations regarding the financing and provision of security for decommissioning and legacy costs associated with carbon capture utilisation and storage. The decommissioning of offshore installations and pipelines used for carbon dioxide storage purposes is modified by Section 30 of the Energy Act 2008, which modified Part 4 of the Petroleum Act. Clause 84 enables further modifications to the modified Part 4 in relation to the definition of carbon storage installation, and the establishment of decommissioning funds and legacy costs as set out in Clause 82, “Financing of costs of decommissioning etc”.

Clause 85 relates to Sections 30A and 30B of the Energy Act 2008, which make provision for a person to qualify for change of use relief on installations and submarine pipelines converted for CCS demonstration projects—as defined by Energy Act 2010. This relief removes the ability for the Secretary of State, in some circumstances, to take steps under the modified Part 4. This clause makes amendments to Section 30A of the Energy Act 2008 by broadening the scope of change of use relief so that it applies to eligible carbon storage installations more generally, amending the trigger point to qualify for such relief.

Amendments 99 and 100, which the Minister referred to, were tabled by my noble friend Lady Liddell, who unfortunately cannot be here and therefore will not be able to move them. They reflect value-for-money considerations in the decision-making process, meaning that the Secretary of State could accept provision of security in respect of amounts to be contributed on account of decommissioning costs—costs likely to be incurred, as the Minister said, many years after the establishment of the fund—rather than requiring such amounts to be paid simply in cash.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, these amendments refer to Clauses 90 and 91. They concern consultation over the CCUS strategy and its periodic review. I am grateful to Drax for providing definitions. Carbon capture and storage traps and removes carbon dioxide from large sources and most of that CO₂ is not released into the atmosphere. That can be either pre or post combustion. If it is post combustion, the storage usually takes place underground in large silos, the largest of which is in Texas and which is currently processing 5 million tonnes of CO₂ a year. As an advert for Drax, it reckons that it would be able to process 20 million tonnes in North Yorkshire by 2030 or thereabouts.

Amendment 113 is about the requirement to include His Majesty’s Opposition in the list of organisations that must be included in stakeholder consultation. These reviews must happen either every five years or more frequently if certain circumstances take place, including a general election or if there is a material change of policy on CCUS. These reviews are to ensure a stable and predictable regulatory landscape for investors. I would have thought that the amendment to include the Opposition in the consultees’ list would be quite attractive to the Government, given the current state of the political landscape in the UK—but there you go. This new requirement would clearly be of overall benefit to the development strategy by involving a wider parliamentary group beyond just the Secretary of State when a review is required. If the Secretary of State seeks to amend the statement, they will have to follow the requirements in Clause 91, which include the requirement for the statement to have been approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament before the Secretary of State can designate it as a strategy and policy statement.

The amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, in this group would ensure a requirement for consultation on the CCUS strategy and policy statement, if the Government should seek to amend it. It sets out the process that would have to be followed, and the Opposition support this amendment. I beg to move.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I was getting ahead of myself on the last group, and I apologise to the Grand Committee for that. I would have thought that the Government would like to accept this amendment, as they are likely to be in opposition in five years’ time. I wait to hear from the Minister.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I particularly support the proposal to take out Clauses 108 and 109. I did not put my name to that, but it seems the obvious solution. As the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, said, we have all been on the receiving end of massive lobbying by the hydrogen lobby. I will not go into hydrogen extensively, but clearly there are areas where hydrogen will need to work. It will be important in some energy-intensive industries and some long-term transport solutions, but we seem to have overreached in terms of those applications.

For heating, it just cannot make sense to use green hydrogen, which would have to be produced by renewable electricity, as electricity could be used anyway. Scientifically and in terms of the laws of physics and efficiency, it does not make sense. Heating is an important area—as we said, it represents some 40% of UK emissions—so surely it must be electrification directly, geothermal technologies or air source heat pumps, as we have discussed before. That is why I think these clauses not standing part is the best solution. If that is not agreed, I thank the noble Baroness for supporting my amendment; the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, has a similar one. This should not be compulsory and those consumers should be very aware of all the other repercussions.

My second amendment, Amendment 126, is less important. As with previous amendments, it just makes sure that only people who really benefit from these trials should have to pay for them and that those who do not should not. I do not understand how BEIS and the Government have become the victims of the lobbying that takes place.

Finally, perhaps I can cite a gentleman whose work I have been reading, Jan Rosenow. He takes his statistics from BEIS’s Hydrogen Production Costs 2021 and Ofgem’s wholesale market indicators. He is very clear that, depending on how you look at the timescale between now and 2050, hydrogen will cost three to 11 times more than fossil fuel gas at its present levels. Clearly, this is not an acceptable solution or route for decarbonisation.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, these amendments relate to Clauses 108 and 109—Chapter 2 in Part 3—on hydrogen grid conversion trials, covering modifications of the gas code and regulations for the protection of consumers. The background to this is that in 2021 the Government launched a consultation on facilitating a grid conversion hydrogen heating trial. The Government’s Ten Point Plan for a Green Industrial Revolution sets out the ambition to support the industry to deliver hydrogen neighbourhood and hydrogen village trials by 2025. This consultation sought views on proposals to legislate to allow gas distribution network operators to carry out activities needed to deliver a grid conversion.

It would be unfair to say that the Government did not alert people to the complexity of the trial, because the consultation document announced that it involved replacing gas supplies with hydrogen in consumers’ premises. It also said:

“Existing in-home appliances and devices such as boilers and meters will need to be replaced with hydrogen-compatible equivalents. Pipework may need to be replaced if it is not already suitable for hydrogen. Additional internal work may also be required to make the property ‘hydrogen-ready’.”


On the face of it, the Government understood the complexity. They also said that the trials would be carried out by the gas distribution network operators in partnership with local authorities, and that, in the trial of hydrogen, safety

“will be of paramount importance”—

that is good news—with the Health and Safety Executive being consulted and involved in any measures of conversion.

Energy Prices (Domestic Supply) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2022

Debate between Lord Lennie and Lord Teverson

Wednesday 16th November 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

I absolutely agree with the noble Baroness. There were no implications at all. I was trying not to say “the United Kingdom”, because the system is different from that in Great Britain. I thank her for that.

I think that I have made my point. I am interested to understand whether there is any issue between the two sides of the border in terms of what is a single market.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for bringing the regulations before us and the noble Lords, Lord Browne, Lord McCrea and Lord Teverson, for their comments and questions. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Browne, in particular for clarifying the depth and strength of the market in Northern Ireland. I was going to say that the regulations were not contentious, but there is a bit of contention and, no doubt, the Minister will deal with that.

The instrument defines the terms “NI domestic electricity supply” and “NI domestic gas supply” to scope the extent of premises that will be eligible. Specifically, this is to include some non-domestic premises which due to their similar metering and tariff arrangements would receive EPG support. Given there is no way for energy suppliers to disaggregate, it is difficult to disagree with this. I would be keen to hear from the Minister the scope of this impact, both in terms of the number of non-domestic premises and any additional costs incurred.

The Explanatory Notes use places of worship as an example, as did the Minister, but what other types of non-domestic premises are included? Perhaps we could turn to the experts from Northern Ireland to help us with this.

I would like to raise an issue that was brought up in the other place during the debate on this instrument on Monday. There is a scheme document linked to this instrument, headed “Establishment of domestic electricity price reduction scheme for Northern Ireland”, which in Schedule 5 states that the Government will require suppliers of electricity to hand all meter data to the Government for the purposes of regulating and discussing the domestic supply scheme.

This data will encompass many things; it will be held by the Government for 10 years and can be shared with other departments, law enforcement agencies, regulatory bodies and others. While it is not pertinent to today’s instrument, this is the same for rest of the United Kingdom in the respective document. This appears to be a breach of the data access and privacy framework which was produced when smart meters were first rolled out. It states that smart meter data is the property of the customer and can be disclosed to third parties, including the Government, only with their consent. I understand the Minister in the other place committed to write to Dr Alan Whitehead MP on this issue and I would appreciate it if the Minister could ensure that I receive the same response.

Climate Change (Targeted Greenhouse Gases) Order 2022

Debate between Lord Lennie and Lord Teverson

Tuesday 15th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I have to admit that I never came across nitrogen trifluoride in my chemistry lessons, or at all before I read this SI. Although I very much accept the Minister saying that we have very small emissions in this area, as he says, it is some 17,000 times more potent than CO₂. It also lasts in the atmosphere for something like 500 years.

What I do not understand is how we measure these emissions. They are used in LCD screens. Although we do not manufacture many of those in this country, can the Minister explain whether this gas escapes in disposal of those electronic items, and whether we then measure that? Our consumption of those products is much greater than our production, so I would be interested to understand how that works and whether we have a bigger problem than he stated. I am not saying that this is the case but am trying to understand. If it is the case, do the Government have any means to manage this? Also, the SI mentions pensions. The Minister did not mention anything about this. Why are the regulations on those coming along later, as I understand it from the Explanatory Memorandum, rather than now?

The major thing that I want to understand, which the Minister mentioned, is the contradiction in the context given in the Explanatory Memorandum, paragraph 6.4 of which says:

“As of 2021, all international reporting practice has been to include NF₃ as a targeted greenhouse gas.”


However, paragraph 7.2 says:

“In 2013, the UNFCCC mandated the inclusion of NF₃ in all national greenhouse gas inventories”.


Therefore, I am rather confused as to whether this all happened in 2021 and will be reported in 2023 or whether we have done all this since 2013. It would be useful to understand that.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing this statutory instrument, and send apologies from my noble friend Lady Blake, who was due to be here but is currently supervising the birth of her latest grandchild—good luck with that.

The instrument extends the scope of emissions captured and reported under the Climate Change Act 2008 by including nitrogen trifluoride—I had not heard of it either, until yesterday when preparing for this—as a targeted greenhouse gas. Following on from the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, I point out that this means that NF₃ emissions will be included within the scope of emissions for the annual statement of emissions for 2021, to be published by 31 March 2023, the full accounting period for the UK’s third carbon budget—CB3—and for subsequent carbon budgets. I am not sure whether that is the answer, but that is my understanding of what we are dealing with.

We on this side of the House have no objections to this instrument, but we have some questions. The Climate Change Act requires the Secretary of State to reduce the amount of net UK carbon emissions to at least 100% below the 1990 level, and to set a carbon budget for each five-year period, to report each year in line with international reporting practices. As we have heard, NF₃ has a global warming potential that is 17,000 times or thereabouts greater than carbon dioxide, although I am not sure that you can smell it, taste it or see it. Therefore, it is right to include it in the annual emissions reporting.

The Climate Change Committee highlighted that the volume of current NF₃ emissions is so low that it is not likely to impact on achieving the 2050 target, as the Minister said in his introduction. However, I am interested in whether the Government have made any assessment of the likelihood of this changing and whether there should be any increase in NF₃ emissions. Also, what is likely to affect the increase in NF₃ emissions into the atmosphere?

As we are coming to the end of the third carbon budget period, I would appreciate it if the Minister could update the House on the current expectation going into the fourth period next year. Given that these budgets were set long in advance—the third in 2008 and the fourth in 2011—they require long-term policy planning, and while the Climate Change Committee in June this year stated that the prospects for meeting the fourth are better than for meeting the fifth and sixth, it has also highlighted the dependence on short-term macroeconomic trends and the extent to which emissions rebounded following the pandemic.

On a wider note, the Climate Change Committee’s report in June emphasised that delivery is undermining the Government’s policy ambition. What steps are the Government taking to address this and to ensure that the positive words are met with the required delivery actions? The report also emphasised that action to address the rising cost of living should be aligned to net zero, yet we have seen the Government favouring non-renewables, with their loopholes to the oil and gas levy, while continuing their apparent ban on onshore wind.

We have asked for this to be considered many times, but I would be interested to hear the Government’s assessment of the impact that these decisions will have on their ability to hit forthcoming carbon budgets.

Energy Prices Bill

Debate between Lord Lennie and Lord Teverson

3rd reading
Tuesday 25th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, briefly, I thank the Minister and his Whip, the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, for their co-operation and hard work during the speedy passage of the Bill. I also thank both the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, on the Liberal Democrat Benches for his knowledge of these matters, and especially my noble friend Lord McNicol, who, while not in his place today, came in at the last minute to support me in the absence of my noble friend Lady Blake. Finally, I thank Milton Brown from the legislative team in the Labour office for keeping us up to date and on message throughout the process. The Bill will now be referred to the other place, and we wish it well in its speedy implementation.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, we on these Benches very much support the Bill, although it might have a few Henry VIII powers and go a little further than it needs to. However, it is clearly absolutely essential for households getting through the winter to come. I very much thank the Minister and the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, for their work from the Government Benches, and all his other officials who have been involved. On our side, I also thank Sarah Pughe from our Whips’ Office. I also thank the Labour Front Bench, and particularly the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, for their co-operation and for the work we have done together. I make one least plea to the Minister, with which I am sure he will agree: it is very important that we manage to deliver the benefits that the Bill gives to those who are off-grid. I know that he and his officials will work hard to ensure that this is the case, although I understand that it will be difficult.

Energy Prices Bill

Debate between Lord Lennie and Lord Teverson

Committee stage
Monday 24th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 6 in this group. Amendment 5 relates to the extension of the energy bill relief scheme for non-domestic customers. I hope that it is something that the Minister will be able to agree or reaffirm from the Dispatch Box, because it is really very straightforward. When the scheme was announced by the Government, only businesses that signed a fixed agreement after 1 April 2022 and those on variable rates were set to benefit. Businesses with energy agreements signed before this date—I repeat, that was 1 April—were unable to get a subsidy to their unit prices.

In the debate on the economy and the growth plan of 2022 in the House on Monday 10 October—so not so long ago—my noble friend Lord Fox raised this with the Minister, who responded that the Government would be “revising the cut-off date” so that contracts taken out between 1 December 2021 and 31 March 2022 would be “eligible for relief”. Can the Minister confirm that this is still the Government’s intention? If it is, given the uncertainty that businesses are facing with the current state of government, will he accept my Amendment 5, which seeks to put that commitment in the Bill? I see no reason why that should not be the case, to give absolute clarity and greater certainty to the non-domestic sector.

On Amendment 6, the alternative fuel payment scheme is intended to deliver a one-off payment of £100 to UK households which are not on the mains gas grid—I declare my own interest in that I rely on biomass and oil—and therefore use alternative fuels such as heating oil to heat their homes.

Powers in the Bill will enable the Government to deliver support via electricity bills under a similar delivery model to the energy bills support scheme, which, as noble Members will know, is a £400 non-repayable discount for eligible households to help with their energy bills, as announced in April by then Chancellor and soon-to-be Prime Minister Rishi Sunak. Households who are eligible for but do not receive alternative fuel payments or the £100 heat network payment—a very round number, as we saw on Second Reading—because they do not have a relationship with an electricity supplier, for example, will receive the £100 via this alternative fund, which will be provided by a designated body. According to the Government, they will set out timing and details of this payment soon. I look forward to hearing from the Minister whether we have any more detail at this time.

It is estimated that more than 4 million people in the UK are off the mains gas grid and rely on other means to heat their homes. As I know in Cornwall, fuel poverty is greater in rural areas than in urban areas and, crucially, it is often deeper, meaning that rural families need to save more money to make sure their energy bills are affordable. This amendment says that it is vital that a fast and easy way to use this system be set up to get these payments to them. Amendment 6 would ensure that payments are made directly to consumers’ bank accounts, which is clearly the quickest and easiest way to make the biggest difference to rural and off-grid customers. Therefore, I hope the Government will be able to accept this amendment, but I certainly hope that the Minister will be able to give more detail and a timeframe so that these particular consumers know their future. I beg to move.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, our Amendments 37 and 38 seek to backdate the electricity and gas price reduction scheme to 8 September, which was the day the Government first announced the energy price guarantee. Apart from anything else, this would produce money to be passed on to customers’ bills. It may seem a small change, but it would be extremely popular among all UK households.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, without, I hope, taking away too much tension from the Committee, I am not going to press this amendment so I shall be relatively brief in explaining it. It has an important basis in the Government’s Energy (Oil and Gas) Profits Levy Act. It also has an element of looking at how the Bill and previous schemes discriminate against the renewables industry compared with fossil fuels.

A key element of Amendment 13 is to assess the impact of that date in the levy so that it applies to oil and gas profits incurred since 1 October 2021. The Government’s energy profits levy is effective from 26 May, meaning that profits accrued before that date are outside its scope. It was clear over a year ago that surging profits for the oil and gas companies were in stark contrast to the real struggle faced by ordinary people and small businesses faced with high and soaring energy costs. In fact, it was one year ago today that my right honourable friend Ed Davey MP called for the windfall tax on the profits of oil and gas companies, accompanied in due course by other parties and other parties represented in this House.

If the Chancellor had responded at that time and a levy had been in place from October, it would have raised billions more. If I could just remind the Committee of the profits since then, BP saw profits rise by 138% between quarter 1 of 2021 and quarter 1 of 2022—from £2.6 billion to £6.2 billion; it was similar for Shell. These combined super-profits alone amount to £7.5 billion in the first quarter of 2022. That is £7.5 billion more than they made in the same quarter in 2021. Had those windfall profits had been taxed by the same amount, it would have raised £1.8 billion.

What we are looking for in particular here has to do with the levy. Like proposed new subsection (1) in Labour’s Amendment 14, proposed new subsection (1)(b) in Amendment 13 calls from the removal of allowances in the levy for investment in oil and gas extraction. This is one of the key differences between the revenue cap on renewables and the fossil fuel industry, where there is that huge investment incentive of getting 80% back for investment in—dare I say?—fossil fuels, obviously. That is where we want there to be quality.

We on these Benches know, as do Members from other parts of the House, that renewables, rather than fossil fuels, are really the way forward. The Government have committed themselves to a large amount of investment in offshore wind. We recognise that but we need to keep at least a level playing field in taxation matters between renewables and fossil fuels. I very much believe that we need then to push investment in renewables further forward. I beg to move.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, the whole question of the energy market is complicated and beset by a series of legislative procedures which can cause confusion. That said, the new clause proposed by Amendment 14 would simply require the Secretary of State to produce a report assessing the impact of removing the investment allowance from oil and gas companies, as set out in the Energy (Oil and Gas) Profits Levy Act, and, in particular, to assess the impact on domestic and non-domestic users. Currently, oil and gas companies receive an 80% rebate on every pound invested but that is not available to renewables or other zero-carbon technology. This appears to tilt the market away from investments in cheaper domestic clean power sources towards oil, gas and fracking.

The proposed new clause would require the Government to assess the revenue and profits of electricity generators and oil and gas producers every six months, to see what the effects would be. Amendment 20 would require the Secretary of State to disaggregate the cost of production of natural gas from the cost of production of other energy sources to reduce the cost of electricity to domestic and commercial consumers. This dates back to when gas was the only game in town for energy companies; now, renewables account for 43% of the generation mix.

Gas prices have increased fourfold since the beginning of 2011, which means that consumers are paying much more for electricity than the average cost of generation across the market. Splitting the market is a likely consequence, by creating a separate pool for cheaper, intermittent, renewable generation and a second for traditional fossil fuel, which in turn could lead to consumers determining when to use cheaper electricity for things such as car charging by timing their usage accordingly. Electricity prices would be determined competitively by companies considering their own boundaries rather than working through gas. I give notice of our attention to move Amendment 14 to a vote.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Lennie and Lord Teverson

Committee stage
Wednesday 7th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I begin by making it quite clear that my energy storage interests are not around long-term storage or retail storage.

I absolutely support the amendments put forward by my noble friends, but I will not talk about them. Instead, I will follow up on the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, and relate it to some of the discussion that took place earlier today in the House around storage, because gas storage is really important at this present time, and it will continue to be in future. I like the way—through a percentage or whatever we use—that we can see a relevant ratchet downwards, as we would expect. However, what alarmed me earlier today was that, in terms of current storage, we appear to be in the hands of independent directors of independent companies that have responsibility to their shareholders under the law, but not to the energy security of the country. That was very clearly stated by the Minister in terms of the decision to turn off the Rough facility in 2017. As I said at the time, if that was the case then, I see no reason why that is not also the case in future; there seemed to be no proposal by the Government to change that situation. I am interested to hear the Minister’s response to that part of my original question.

I will also go back to what the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, said, because part of the Minster’s earlier answer was that our storage is the gas we have in the North Sea. But we all know that that store is going down, and I certainly would not, from these Benches, resist trying to increase that in the short term during the energy crisis to ensure that our energy is there—the situation would be different in the medium and long terms. That flow is going down and our imports are going up. I do not know if these two years were particularly representative, but the last figures from the Minister’s department said that, in 2020, we imported £5 billion-worth of gas. A year later, that went up to £20 billion-worth of imports of gas—a quadrupling. That was not all because of a price increase at that time, most of which has happened in 2022.

Another statistic reveals that, while we think we have multiple sources, 75% of imports came from one country, which is Norway. Norway is a dependable friend of the United Kingdom; we would not argue otherwise. But we must be clear that Norway’s bigger customer is Germany. Germany and the other European countries which import gas from Norway are probably more desperate—this is likely not the right phrase to use—for that resource than we are. As I said, I very much support the outline of the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, and ask the Minister what security we actually have, and for how long, over our supplies—that is, the 75% of imports that we have from Norway. What is our legal entitlement to that flow into the future?

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, the amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Oates, are very welcome and they plug a gap in the Energy Bill. Amendment 50 facilitates the changes proposed by allowing the Secretary of State to

“designate the person to be a counterparty for long duration energy storage revenue support contracts.”

Amendment 51 introduces a new clause which allows the Secretary of State to

“direct a long duration energy storage counterparty to offer to contract with an eligible person”.

Clauses 59, 61 and 63 already allow designation of counterparties for transport and storage, hydrogen production and carbon capture revenue support contracts, and Amendment 50 simply replicates this for long duration energy storage. Similarly, Clauses 60, 62 and 64 already allow the Secretary of State to direct counterparties to offer to contract, and Amendment 51 replicates this for long duration energy storage.

The amendments define long-duration energy storage revenue support contracts as being

“between a long duration energy storage counterparty and the holder of a licence under section 7”

and, as ones

“entered into by a long duration energy storage counterparty in pursuance of a direction given to it under section 60(1).”

This fills a big gap for long-duration energy storage. According to the Government, longer-duration storage—access across days, weeks and months—could help to reduce the cost of meeting net zero by storing excess low-carbon generation for longer periods of time, thereby helping to manage variation in generation, such as extended periods of low wind. This in turn could reduce the amount of fossil-fuel and low-carbon generation that would otherwise be needed to optimise the energy output from renewables.

Long-duration energy storage includes pumped storage as well as a range of innovative new technologies that can store electricity for four hours to supply firm, flexible and fast energy that is valuable for managing high-renewables systems. Introducing long-duration energy storage in large quantities in Britain by 2035 can reduce carbon emissions by 10 megatonnes of CO₂ per annum, reduce systems costs by £1.13 billion per annum and reduce reliance on gas by 50 TWh per annum. That seems to me worth consideration in this Bill.

Amendment 225 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, which has general support around the House, requires the Government to produce a strategy for the storage of gas for domestic consumption. This would see the construction and operation of gas storage facilities capable of holding 25%, although it could be more—it could be 100%—of forecast domestic consumption each year beyond 2025. While agreeing that UK gas storage is currently small, which may have left us exposed to higher prices and shortages thus far, is it the solution to the long-term energy supply problems that we may face? It may well be that we need an immediate expansion of gas, but whether it is the long-term solution to our energy supply is open to some question. The UK currently stores enough gas to meet demand over four or five winter days, which is clearly not enough. But the new Chancellor said, when he was the Business Secretary, that the answer to mitigating a quadrupling of the gas price in four months was to get more diverse sources of supply, and more diverse sources of electricity, through non-carbon sources. So there is some doubt about the long-term viability of increasing gas storage.

Amendment 240 from the noble Lord, Lord Foster, would establish a new clause to store energy generated by solar panels in the list of energy-saving materials that are subject to zero-rate VAT. He had the example of his friend in the south-west. Modelling from Cornwall Insight’s view of the GB power market out to 2030 has shown that between 2025 and 2030 the Government must spend almost one-fifth of their total energy technologies investment, which includes solar, wind, nuclear and carbon capture and storage, on energy storage batteries, if we are to meet renewable targets and stabilise the energy market. Latest data estimates that almost 10% of grid capacity will be provided by battery storage by 2030, at an estimated cost of £20 billion. So, considering both the need and the cost of this, the amendment seems a sensible proposal to encourage the market to take up some of the burden.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

The history of contracts for difference is longer than I thought; I thank the noble Baroness for mentioning that. They became a big thing in the last Energy Act during the coalition Government and have been amazingly successful. I have to admit that I did not realise that this issue was quite so significant, but it is interesting that, given the financial investment required for offshore wind farms and the time they often take to implement and build, this is a case where the risk goes up for the financial investor, as opposed to a low-risk contract for difference. I am therefore also interested to understand from the Minister whether these businesses are just delaying until they see the lay of the land and whether they still have those options, because there is that risk-reward ratio.

I very much support the intention of this amendment, but the energy industry has also talked about contracts for difference being a way forward even in the fossil fuel industry, and a way that we could decouple power prices from gas prices. It may be that the Government are not doing anything in that area, but I am interested to understand whether that is something the department is investigating as a way forward on that decoupling.

Contracts for difference are a fantastic invention. As the Minister said, at the moment they are bringing good money back into the public sector—technically into the counterparty company, but effectively into the public finances. I very much support the motivation of this amendment.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, we are also very supportive of contracts for difference and of this attempt to ensure that contracts entered into are adhered to. I was not quite sure whether the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, had the total number of these failures to enter the contracts, other than the three she cited, which is probably enough. Maybe the Minister could help with that if she does not have that information.

The only thing that concerns me is that, although I cannot think of what it could be, there might be some reasonable exemption for not signing up. However, apart from that, it seems to me entirely sensible to tighten this obligation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

I thank the Minister for that. When I read the Bill, I looked at Chapter 2, entitled “Decommissioning of carbon storage installations”. My first question was: is not carbon storage all about being permanent? How the heck do you decommission a big hole under the North Sea and move all the carbon dioxide somewhere else? I do not want to understand the detail of this—if the Minister wants to accuse me of being thick or stupid about this, I can take it—but what installations for carbon capture and storage will be decommissioned and where the carbon will go. I should like to understand the scenarios so that I can understand how this part of the Bill works.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

I should also be interested to know that. First, may I say to the new Leader of the House that I would strongly recommend the reappointment of the noble Lord, Lord Callanan. That probably does him no favours at all, but that is just how it is. Secondly, I was going to set out a hypothetical situation about an oil and gas plant—

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Lennie and Lord Teverson

Committee stage
Monday 5th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome very much that we have moved on to the area of enforcement because, if there is one thing that is true in anything to do with the environment, we make legislation—very effectively, often—but our enforcement does not work, because of either lack of will or lack of resources.

I would like assurance from the Minister, if possible, that the regulator will be resourced enough—I would be interested to know what conversations have taken place over this—to make sure that enforcement does take place. Of course, for enforcement to happen, particularly in physical facilities, there needs to be inspection. I would be interested in understanding who will be inspecting and what the resource level is likely to be.

I come back to a very good point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Blake of Leeds, on safety, which was not answered by the Minister earlier. CO₂, although not toxic like carbon monoxide, is a gas that, if exposed, can be suffocating. I would like to understand how enforcement on subsea storage facilities can take place.

Enforcement is good, but my questions are these: how will it be resourced, what is the programme for it and can it happen sufficiently to ensure safety?

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, the government amendments appear to correct an oversight in the Bill. If noble Lords are confused then so am I. I am not entirely sure what the Minister was saying, but it appears to me that there was a stage missing in the original drafting of this Bill and the attempt now is to put in that stage—which is, in effect, a final warning to licence holders to act in specific ways in order to become compliant. If that is right, then I understand it and I do not oppose it, but I want to make sure that I understand correctly what the Government are trying to do. If I am right then, other than to point out the original omission, we do not oppose these measures; we just want clarification of what is being put into the Bill.

Warm Home Discount (England and Wales) Regulations 2022

Debate between Lord Lennie and Lord Teverson

Monday 20th June 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, who asked excellent questions, particular the question about park homes. There are some 85,000 residents in park homes in this country, and they do not always have the sort of landlords we would like them to have. They are a big issue generally.

Although I welcome this secondary legislation in principle, it is worth noting that this is a reflection of a policy failure over decades, in that we have such a requirement to help people with energy bills because our housing stock is nowhere near the standard it should be. All this, including the £15 billion being spent by the Treasury on the cost of living, specifically around energy issues, is about standing still rather than investing in the future. I know the Minister will say that the Government are investing, but it is a trickle in comparison to what we need. Past Governments have been equally bad at resolving that. This is a symptom of a policy failure over decades in this country.

I shall ask a couple of technical questions on this and will then come on to one or two other things. The figure that rather shocked me—it may be because I misunderstand it—is in paragraph 7.2 on page 3 of the Explanatory Memorandum:

“The Impact Assessment models an improvement to the fuel poverty targeting rate of the scheme from 39% to 47%.”


Does that mean we have moved getting it wrong to 61% from to 53%? I would like to understand that. I remember going through these statutory instruments for Governments, and I understand the problem of trying to target these things correctly and that somehow the statistics or working with data from other departments does not work. But it is worth understanding whether that figure is what I understand it to be and how we improve that for the future because, my goodness, if that is it, we certainly need to improve it.

The next page refers to an algorithm that there were the largest concerns about. We all know the problem with algorithms. They can be great things but, as the Department for Education found out on A-level results, they can be disastrous. I am interested to understand what that issue was and whether it was resolved or was altered in the final prospectus.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Best, what I do not understand—the Minister will forgive me if I have missed it—is how private renters get their money back from prepaid meters. It seems straightforward when the core group are just paid the electricity on their bills. What happens in terms of prepayment meters?

I want to ask about one more thing before a more general point. This is for England and Wales; it talks about Scotland coming on later on but Northern Ireland is not mentioned. Northern Ireland has a much higher rate of fuel poverty than England and Wales—18% historically, though I am sure it will be a lot larger by the end of this year. We do not have a functioning Executive or Assembly in Belfast. Can the Minister say whether the Government will have to legislate directly regarding schemes over there or are schemes that have already been agreed carrying on? Clearly, fuel poverty is a big issue in Northern Ireland.

Lastly, I have a more general question for the Minister. We had an announcement today—it came through on the news—that, rightly, the Government wanted to protect the additional money paid by consumers to retail energy companies that tended to get washed out when they went bankrupt. The answer seemed to be—I know that news reporting is not necessarily accurate—to ensure that the balance sheets of these companies were better in order to solve it. If a company goes into administration, it goes into administration; the balance sheet is washed out automatically in that case. Why cannot we put that money into an escrow account or find some way in which that can be isolated from the company and remains the consumers’ money in trust? I do not understand why that is not a way forward. If the Minister could give me some clue on that, I would be very grateful.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for bringing these proposals, which are an improvement on the previous scheme. I also thank noble Lords for their contributions, in particular the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, who represented the NEA’s concerns about the core group 2 and how some of them will miss out, on the way that the scheme is set up, on the funding sufficiency—or insufficiency—and on the prepayment customer concerns, which the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, also raised. The noble Lord, Lord Best, is an expert on the private rented sector. We share his concerns about that; I will come on to that in what I have to say. The overall theme of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, is that it represents a failure in public policy that we have to have this scheme in any place, but here we are: we have to have it and this is, as I have said, an improvement.

The Government have said that they intend to bring forward a new set of reconciliation regulations “later this year”, which is better than “when Parliament has time” or “in due course”, but can the Minister be a little more precise about when “later this year” means?

On the criteria and the algorithm used to estimate energy costs, how satisfied is the Minister that the algorithms used will not lead to an education-type embarrassment for the Government and, therefore, a failure in terms of there being lots of customers who potentially would benefit from this scheme but may then miss out? Have the Government included all eligible households, including persons with a disability, in their revised six criteria for the new scheme?

The scheme has an impact on energy suppliers, the authority and the Government. The energy suppliers are likely to recover their costs from their customers, which is estimated to be £19—a £5 increase on the former scheme. The authority and the Government are likely to incur costs of approximately £22 million for their work in issuing notices and identifying customers eligible for core group rebates. The Secretary of State will conduct a review or partial review of the scheme, and the authority will review participation of suppliers in the scheme and publish an annual report. This is welcome.

However, Labour would introduce legislation to uplift the warm home discount for 9 million working families and pensioners during the present inflationary crisis. As the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, pointed out, this is an extraordinary time for energy costs. I am not saying that it could have been predicted but Ukraine is upon us and, therefore, more may well need to be done in the lifecycle of this scheme.

Core group 2, which has replaced the broader group, will not now have to apply for inclusion in the scheme, which is welcome. However, there will be households beyond that group who remain in fuel poverty, such as those in rented accommodation. They may be on low incomes and with disputed levels of energy use, particularly when they have no access to what proportion of the payment they make to their landlords is for energy supply. They may not be receiving benefits, which would usually give them automatic inclusion. It may be impossible for them to contest their exclusion. The Minister’s observations on this would be very welcome.

If an energy company goes into administration or disappears entirely, will the supplier of last resort take on the full obligation of the failed supplier or are there now no small-enough energy suppliers left—that is, those with 50,000 customers—that can go bust? Have they all gone bust already? The recovery of the scheme from customers will mean that, in some cases, energy companies will be recovering money from those who have received the warm home discount, thus giving with the one hand and taking away with the other. Would Minister like to comment on that?

The overall scheme is likely to add to the rise in the socialisation of the expenses of suppliers of last resort, resulting in a probable £100 contribution to the increased price cap. Have the Government considered whether the scheme should be covered by Exchequer funding or by a wider group of people contributing, not just individual customer payers?

In welcoming the progress the Government have made with these changes to the scheme, there are a number of observations on which I would welcome the Minister’s response.