Tuesday 28th March 2023
(1 year, 1 month ago)
Lords ChamberEnergy Act 2023 View all Energy Act 2023 Debates Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Amendment Paper: HL Bill 86-I(a) Amendment for Report (Supplementary to the Marshalled List) - (27 Mar 2023)
18:50 - Division on Amendment 18 - Ayes: 170 / Noes: 160 - Amendment 18 agreed.
Lord Lennie (Lab)
My Lords, my thanks to noble Lords who have spoken in the debate: the noble Lords, Lord Ravensdale and Lord Teverson, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman, Lady Altmann and Lady Bennett. I will quickly review what I think they said and set out our amendment.
The noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, set out the principal purpose for the Bill. Split in four ways, it will: increase energy systems’
“resilience and reliability … support the delivery of the UK’s climate change commitments … reform the UK’s energy system while minimising costs to consumers and protecting them from unfair pricing”,
and improve the overall efficiency of the UK energy system and economy. It also requires an annual report to Parliament on the above. The first three of those points are lifted directly from the opening paragraph of the Explanatory Notes, while the fourth is also an objective of the ISOP simply made wider.
Labour tabled an amendment in Committee, and I will remind noble Lords of its contents. The context of that was, at that time, the cost of living crisis; the energy price cap was going up to £3,549 per year. National Energy Action predicted that the number of UK households in fuel poverty would rise to 8.9 million. Tory leadership candidates at that time were vying for leadership to be Prime Minister but were running away from the issue of net zero; the High Court found that the net-zero climate strategy was inadequate, and the Climate Change Committee found that credible plans existed for only 39% of emissions, citing “major policy failures” and “scant evidence of delivery”. As regards energy security at that time, gas prices were expected to surge to record highs the week after the Nord Stream 1 pipeline was shut down, and European prices had risen by nearly 400% over the past year. The UK relies on gas for about 40% of its power generation, and even more on the coldest days when demand is high and wind generation tends to be low. In 2017, a BEIS report included a scenario for a complete cut-off of Russian gas and found that the UK could see “significant unmet demand” if the cut was prolonged and continental European countries paid whatever was necessary.
However, the Bill is a hotchpotch of things thrown together, lacking an overarching theme to tackle these issues. Our amendments would have set out a purpose for the Act, increasing resilience and reliability; supporting the delivery of UK’s climate change commitments; reforming energy systems; binding the Secretary of State and public authorities to these purposes; requiring the Secretary of State to designate a statement as a strategy and policy statement with regard to the purpose of the Act; and requiring the Secretary of State to review the strategy and policy statement on a five-year basis. That would have forced successive Governments into long-term thinking about the specific purpose, not limiting the impact and ambition of the Bill to what has been tacked together, which simply does not go far enough or tackle the immediate problems.
The amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, would place gas and electricity markets under a duty to assist in the delivery of net zero, and our amendment would require the Secretary of State to designate a statement giving GEMA a mandate for considering the role of energy in supporting government policy in achieving net zero. The amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, would include in Ofgem’s general duties a specific requirement to have regard to meeting the UK’s net-zero emissions.
Briefing from RenewableUK sets out the argument for Ofgem remit reform. It states:
“Ofgem’s remit has not changed since its establishment in 2000, and does not prioritise electricity decarbonisation”—
in line with recent government legislation or stated ambitions. It has only a consideration of greenhouse reduction. It continues:
“As a result, Ofgem has been unable to substantially reform its working practices and regulatory frameworks in response to the 2008 Climate Change Act and the UK’s subsequent net zero ambition, to detriment of renewable energy investment and decarbonisation pace.”
It goes on to say that the Government have an opportunity to reform Ofgem’s remit in the Bill we are addressing today.
There is some key evidence for that. Mike Thompson, the Climate Change Committee’s chief economist, noted the integration of energy with transport and heat, including the potential for
“cars sitting on driveways acting as batteries and putting electricity back into the grid”.
He argued that there is a
“need for real integration and a regulator that can think from a systems perspective”,
suggesting that hydrogen and heat networks should be within Ofgem’s remit.
Jonathan Brearley, chief executive of Ofgem, said:
“Planning the system and setting how it evolves should not really be done by the regulator. The regulator’s job is to make sure that that is done efficiently and effectively by the companies concerned.”
We appreciate that argument.
A number of witnesses told the committee that the net-zero target should be included explicitly within Ofgem’s statutory duties. Dr Hardy said that he would
“put net zero up top”,
balancing out its other duties against the context of
“hitting that legislated carbon target”.
Professor Mitchell said that
“net zero has to be the raison d’être of Ofgem”
and argued that
“delivering on legally enshrined commitments to decarbonise”
should form part of Ofgem’s principal duty.
The committee concluded:
“To ensure that, on an enduring basis, the appropriate focus is given to net zero within its competing priorities, we recommend that Ofgem’s duties should be amended to include explicit reference to having due regard to the net zero target. While Ofgem maintains that net zero considerations already factor into its decision-making, adding net zero explicitly to its statutory duties will serve to make this clear.”
We feel that the UK needs not to be left behind but to show similar ambition in its plans for the future of the electricity industry, including Ofgem’s remit.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Callanan) (Con)
First, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, and the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, for bringing forward Amendments 1 and 136 and the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, for his contribution to the debate. As I set out in Committee, although the Government believe these amendments are well intentioned, ultimately, they are unnecessary. First, the Bill has a clear purpose, so I do not think any introductory clauses are necessary. Where appropriate, the Bill already sets out fairly clear objectives and general duties for the Secretary of State and other specified bodies in carrying out their functions under the relevant parts.
Secondly, in regard to an annual report, I assume noble Lords are aware that the Energy Act 2013 introduced the power for the designation of a strategy and policy statement that sets out the Government’s strategic priorities for energy policy, the roles and responsibilities of those implementing such policy, and the policy outcomes that we want to see achieved. We have committed to a second statutory consultation this spring. I therefore believe that an annual report to Parliament would cause unnecessary duplication of the existing strategy and policy statement.
Baroness Hayman (CB)
Before the noble Lord sits down, I would be very grateful if he can tell me why he thinks so many other people disagree with him on this—so many people who are regulated by the regulator, and so many reports, from your Lordships’ House, the Skidmore report, and from the CCC. Why does the rest of the world not get it?
Lord Callanan (Con)
I think it is very easy for other people who are not directly engaged in the business of regulation to think that adding a statutory duty will be the magical cause of all the different elements of the energy system that they want to contribute to. But, of course, what we should also remember is that placing a duty in primary legislation also makes it justiciable.
I am sure there are plenty of lawyers in this House, and lots of litigation is already flying around on net-zero duties—the Government, indeed, need to respond to further litigation by the end of the week. If the House wants to give yet more work to their learned friends—of course, all the costs of that are ultimately borne by consumers—then the House is free to do that. We continue to keep the matter under review, but we are very clear, as is Ofgem, that Ofgem feels as though it already has this responsibility. I hope that Peers will think again.
Baroness Altmann (Con)
Before my noble friend sits down, is there any chance that the Government might reconsider this? Will he consider that the future system operator will have this remit? The FCA, the PRA under the current Financial Services and Markets Bill, the NHS, and the Advanced Research and Invention Agency will all have this specific remit written in. Why do the Government so reject putting it in the Bill for Ofgem?
Lord Callanan (Con)
Because the other bodies do not have the responsibility for regulating the energy system. I do not see why that is so difficult for my noble friend to understand.
Lord Ravensdale (CB)
My Lords, to sum up my Amendments 1 and 136, the important part of the whole Bill for me is to bring into being the future system operator, which will be a key enabler for much of what we have been talking about today. In the end, it will provide advice to the Government, and it is the responsibility of the DESNZ to own the development of a plan for our future electricity-generating system.
The amendments proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, align with what I am talking about around linking up the duty for Ofgem. They pointed out the links between it and the future system operator, and talked about making sure that it is coherent and that we think more strategically to reduce costs to the consumer in the long term.
Another important point is tackling long-term under- investment in the grid, as brought out by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann. Alongside the increase in generating capacity that we require, there is just as much of a challenge in our grid infrastructure and ensuring that the grid connections are there to make use of that.
The Minister gave me some reassurance with the announcements that he said were due later this week on the energy system and on the electricity system in particular. I look forward to that event with great interest and, for now, beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Lord Callanan (Con)
I thank everyone who contributed to the debate. If the House will have a little patience, I will first take some time to set out and explain the government amendments in this group, before I come on to the non-government amendments.
Amendment 4 to Clause 9 ensures that, ahead of making any regulations under this power, there should first be consultation with the economic regulator and the appropriate devolved authorities.
Amendments 5 and 6 to Clause 19 preserve the independence of the economic regulator by removing the power for the Secretary of State to direct the economic regulator not to impose conditions in consenting to the transfer of a licence.
Amendment 7 clarifies that the requirement to provide information to the Secretary of State or the CMA under Clause 28 is in relation only to Ofgem’s functions under Part 1 of the Bill, not to any of its other functions.
Amendment 8 clarifies that, under Clause 29, disclosure of information to the economic regulator does not breach any obligation of confidence owed by the licence holder making the disclosure, or any other restriction on the disclosure of information. It also clarifies that this provision does not authorise a contravention of data protection legislation.
Amendment 9 provides updated definitions of a “final order” and “provisional order” in Clause 31—these are consequential on amendments made to Clause 32 in Committee, which inserted a new Schedule 3, setting out the enforcement measures in the Bill.
Amendments 10 to 12 and 15 concern the list of persons whom the Secretary of State must consult under Clause 46 before modifying the terms of a company’s licence in relation to a transport and storage administration order. These amendments make it clear that there should be consultation with the relevant storage licensing authority where a carbon storage licence is in place.
On Amendment 35, we must mitigate the risk that decommissioning liabilities fall to the taxpayer, given that the Government ultimately sit as the decommissioner of last resort. Section 29 of the Petroleum Act 1998 enables the Secretary of State to serve notices that require the recipient to submit a decommissioning programme for an installation or pipeline. The Section 29 regime is therefore a key lever in mitigating that risk.
Amendment 35 proposes amendments to Section 30 of the Energy Act 2008, which would enable modifications to Sections 30, 31 and 45 of the Petroleum Act 1998, in its application to the decommissioning of carbon storage installations. These modifications seek to ensure that the Secretary of State can issue a Section 29 decommissioning notice on entities with a licence for CCUS activities, under Section 18 of the Energy Act 2008. This will enable the Secretary of State to impose decommissioning obligations on CCUS licensees, among other persons.
Amendment 36 proposes an amendment to Section 29 of the Petroleum Act 1998. Under current legislation, a new Section 29 notice cannot be issued on assets that have already been included in a decommissioning programme, unless that programme is rejected or approval for it is withdrawn. This would mean that, if an oil and gas asset were subsequently repurposed for use in a CCUS network, the Secretary of State may not be able to serve a new Section 29 notice on the CCUS operators of that asset without first rejecting, or withdrawing approval for, the existing decommissioning programme. This could lead to a gap in liability for decommissioning a repurposed asset, which of course increases the risk to the taxpayer. The amendment seeks to ensure that the Secretary of State can issue a new Section 29 notice on assets that are already within an approved decommissioning programme, thus mitigating the risks.
Amendments 37 to 39 clarify the duties in Clause 92 for the Secretary of State and the economic regulator to carry out their respective functions with regard to considerations in a CCUS strategy and policy statement. The amendments clarify that these duties apply only to functions relevant to the strategic priorities set out in the statement, and related to carbon dioxide capture, usage and storage policy. The amendments seek to exclude other functions set out in Part 2, which relate to hydrogen production that may not rely on CCUS, such as hydrogen produced via electrolysis. They seek to expressly exclude hydrogen levy functions.
Amendments 41 to 47 to Clause 99 ensure that sufficient powers are available to the Secretary of State to be able to update or make new access to infrastructure regulations, should that be appropriate to ensure that access arrangements remain fit for purpose. In particular, updates to the existing regulations may be needed in light of the new economic licensing framework established in Part 1. These amendments are necessary because the existing regulations were made using the powers in Section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972, and there are currently no domestic powers to update, replace or make new access to infrastructure regulations.
Amendment 14 to Schedule 5 ensures that, where appeals are made to the Competition and Markets Authority in respect of a decision made by the economic regulator for carbon dioxide transport and storage, a “specialist utility” group is convened to hear such an appeal. This is consistent with provisions for licence modification appeals in the Gas Act 1986, the Electricity Act 1989 and the Water Industry Act 1991, as I am sure the House is aware.
I move to the non-government amendments. Amendment 33 requires CCUS decommissioning funds to be ring-fenced. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, for his contribution. The Government’s view is that the primary purpose of a funded decommissioning regime is to provide assurance that decommissioning liabilities for CCUS assets will be paid, mitigating the risk that these liabilities fall to the taxpayer—we share the noble Lord’s concern about this. The noble Lord asked me for reassurance that the funds will be ring-fenced. The Government agree that appropriate safeguards will need to be put in place to ensure that the funds carry out the desired function.
The Government’s 2021 consultation on establishing a funded CCUS decommissioning regime set out our proposals for access to the decommissioning funds and, in particular, the expectations for ring-fencing and regulatory authorisation for any withdrawals. The Government expect that the decommissioning funds will be overseen by the economic regulator, to ensure that the funds are accruing appropriately. In addition, the intention is that the Offshore Petroleum Regulator for Environment and Decommissioning will need to authorise any withdrawal requests made by the operator to ensure that use of the funds is restricted to decommissioning-related purposes.
The noble Lord will be pleased to know that the Government plan shortly to publish an update document, which will include further detail on regulatory oversight of the decommissioning funds, the holding arrangements and, crucially, the protection against insolvency. The Government intend to set out the requirements for appropriate restrictions and safeguards for the fund in regulations and guidance. These requirements will be essentially technical in nature, so it is the Government’s view that it would be more appropriate to set these out in secondary legislation.
I move to Amendment 2, from the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, and the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, who is not in his place, sadly—I was looking forward to debating with him. It is the Government’s view that this amendment is not necessary. The Secretary of State is already bound by law under the Climate Change Act to ensure that targets to reduce greenhouse gas emissions are met. Under Clause 1(6), the economic regulator is required to have regard to the need to assist the Secretary of State in complying with his statutory duties under Sections 1 and 4 of the Climate Change Act 2008, and to have regard to the statutory emissions-reduction targets in each of the devolved Administrations.
Anticipatory investment will be essential to scale up CO2 transport and storage networks to meet our CCUS ambitions and net-zero targets. However, this investment must be driven by the needs of the users of the network, both those already connected to a network and, of course, those wanting to connect.
Baroness Sheehan (LD)
Before the Minister sits down, I will ask him to clarify a couple of things. First, I welcome his statements on decommissioning, but can he confirm whether the safeguarding of decommissioning funds will include all fields, both existing and new? Secondly, can he confirm that it is the FCA that will provide the regulatory oversight for decommissioning funds?
Lord Callanan (Con)
It would depend on what the noble Baroness means by “decommissioning funds”. What would the decommissioning funds be for? In response to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, I outlined our intention to ring-fence the CCUS decommissioning funds.
Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke (Lab)
I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Lord Callanan
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment requires proposed regulations under subsection (6) to be consulted on in the same way as regulations under subsection (2).
Lord Callanan
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment removes a provision that would have authorised the Secretary of State to direct the economic regulator not to impose conditions on consent to the transfer of a licence. Lord Callanan’s amendment at page 21, line 19 is consequential on this amendment.
Lord Callanan
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment clarifies that the duties under subsection (3) relate only to functions under Part 1 of the Bill, not to other functions of the Gas and Electricity Markets Authority.
Lord Callanan
“(5) Except as provided by subsection (6), the disclosure of information under this section does not breach—(a) any obligation of confidence owed by the person making the disclosure, or(b) any other restriction on the disclosure of information (however imposed).(6) This section does not authorise or require a disclosure of information if the disclosure would contravene the data protection legislation (but in determining whether a disclosure would do so, a requirement imposed by virtue of subsection (2) is to be taken into account).”Member's explanatory statement
In this amendment new subsection (5) clarifies that disclosure of information under the Clause would not amount to a breach of any other legal restrictions and new subsection (6) clarifies the relationship between the power to require information under the Clause and requirements in data protection legislation.
Lord Callanan
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment updates subsection (4) to take account of amendments made in Committee which affected the way “final order” and “provisional order” are defined in Part 1.
Lord Callanan
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment is supplementary to Lord Callanan’s amendment at page 43, line 4.
Lord Callanan
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment takes account of the passing of the Energy Prices Act 2022, which inserted a reference to that Act in section 105(1)(a) of the Utilities Act 2000, since this Bill was introduced.
Lord Callanan (Con)
My Lords, in moving Amendment 13, I will also speak to Amendments 58, 63, 75, 78, 79, 95 and 143 in my name.
Turning first to Amendments 58 and 143, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, for bringing forward his original amendment on the classification of nuclear-derived fuels in Committee. While we believe that we should not categorise nuclear-derived fuels as renewable, I have welcomed the constructive discussion with noble Lords since Committee, and, in response to that, the Government are pleased to bring to forward these amendments.
Amendment 58 will enable the renewable transport fuel obligation and the forthcoming sustainable aviation fuel mandate to support two types of low-carbon fuel, helping the UK to decarbonise transport further, thereby achieving, I think, the noble Lord’s objective. First, it will enable the support of recycled carbon fuels. These are produced from otherwise unrecyclable waste plastics or industrial waste gases that cannot be avoided, reused or recycled. Secondly, it extends support to fuels derived from nuclear energy. Both fuel types have the potential to deliver significant carbon savings over traditional fossil fuels and are a vital replacement for sectors that are difficult to decarbonise, such as commercial aviation and heavy goods vehicles. Amendment 143 sets the timing on which the power comes into force at two months after Royal Assent.
I turn now to Amendment 95, which relates to Part 8 on the regulation of energy smart appliances, specifically under Clause 191, which deals with how energy smart regulations will be enforced. It will enable the regulator to agree an enforcement undertaking with an economic actor, where appropriate, and, if required, it will still issue a penalty on a separate non-compliance issue to the same economic actor. The ability to agree an enforcement undertaking with a business is a useful tool for a regulator. It allows it to work with a business to bring it into compliance without the need for potentially harsher penalties. This will be particularly important in the regulation of energy smart appliances, which is a nascent and evolving market at the moment. Should other, unrelated instances of non-compliance arise while an enforcement undertaking is in place, the regulator still has the power to issue a penalty. The amendment will put that ability beyond any doubt by clarifying that the regulator can issue a penalty against a business with which it has agreed an enforcement undertaking, providing that the two relate to separate issues. The amendment will help to enable the implementation of a consistent and fair enforcement regime for the energy smart appliances market.
Amendments 13 and 63 simply take account of the Energy Prices Act 2022, which has been passed since the Bill was introduced.
Amendments 75, 78 and 79 are minor and technical amendments relating to Schedule 16 on heat networks regulation. Amendment 75 corrects an error in relation to installation and maintenance licences for heat networks by removing the reference to Scotland, where the licensing regime will not apply. The licensing regime will apply in England and Wales, and the Northern Ireland Executive will have powers to introduce an equivalent regime. The regime will not apply in Scotland, as the Scottish Government, I am told, will introduce their own regime.
Amendment 78 simply corrects a typographical error in paragraph 40 of Schedule 16, replacing a reference to “a penalty” with “compensation”.
Finally, Part 9 of the schedule provides for regulations introducing a special administration regime for the heat network sector. It provides for the appropriate authority to modify existing legislation relating to the special administration regime for energy companies to allow for the equivalent introduction of an energy regime for heat networks. Amendment 79 provides a definition of the appropriate authority for paragraph 50 of the schedule, to match the definition in paragraph 61 of that schedule. The appropriate authority in this case is defined as the Secretary of State for England and Wales and Scotland, and the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland. I beg to move.
Lord Ravensdale (CB)
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 58, to which I have added my name. First, I thank the Minister for his constructive approach, and for listening to my amendments in Committee and responding by introducing this amendment, which addresses all of the points in my Committee amendments. I am most grateful. I must also thank his officials for the work that they have put into drafting and finding an acceptable way forward, and for engaging with me throughout the process. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington for her support throughout.
I break down the benefits of this amendment into three broad areas. First, it continues the work that the Government are doing to create a level playing field for low-carbon technologies. We heard the welcome news in the recent Budget Statement that nuclear will be considered as environmentally sustainable, or taxonomy aligned, under the UK green taxonomy. In a similar vein, the renewable transport fuels obligation amendment will allow nuclear to benefit from a subsidy scheme that is already available to renewable operators. This sends a clear message to investors that the Government sit squarely behind nuclear as an environmentally sustainable energy source. It also brings out the important principle of technological independence—to let the market do its job to find the most efficient solutions, but also because for net zero we need to throw the kitchen sink at the problem, if we are going to achieve it.
Secondly, the amendment directly enables a whole range of near-term projects that will help to kick-start the green hydrogen and recycled carbon fuel industries within the UK. With recycled carbon fuels, there are a number of industrial projects being scoped that will be enabled by this amendment—for example, Project Dragon, to use industrial waste gases from Port Talbot to produce ethanol from which recycled carbon fuels, including sustainable aviation fuels, can be derived. By setting strict rules for how to account for emissions, savings of around 70% can be generated when compared with the baseline of using fossil fuels. Those projects, enabled by this amendment, will be an important enabler for decarbonising transport fuels and moving towards a circular economy, saving significant amounts of greenhouse gas emissions in future.
For nuclear, there are near-term plans to produce hydrogen from Sizewell B for use in Sizewell C construction, and also in other nuclear projects, including SMRs and AMRs. Particular economic benefits may be gained through using nuclear power to produce hydrogen—for example, high temperature electrolysis, using heat from the nuclear reaction to produce hydrogen much more efficiently than cold electrolysis. Further down the line, using the heat from high temperature reactors to produce hydrogen directly through the sulfur-iodine cycle has the potential to increase efficiency further beyond traditional electrolysis techniques. If the Government are to meet their ambitious hydrogen production targets, nuclear needs to be part of the picture, which will be enabled by this amendment and help kick- start green, or pink, hydrogen production—I sometimes lose track of the colours—in the UK.
Thirdly, the amendment enables these fuel sources to be eligible for the sustainable aviation fuels, or SAF, mandate. Both recycled carbon fuels and nuclear will have a key role to play here. RCF has the potential to produce large volumes of SAF in the near term; in the longer term, the combination of direct air capture and hydrogen production from nuclear could allow power-to-liquid sustainable aviation fuel to be produced economically.
As I said, I am very grateful to the Minister and his officials for working together to make this important change to the Bill.
Lord Lennie (Lab)
My Lords, this amendment would allow two other low-carbon fuels to be supported under the existing and forthcoming renewable transport fuel schemes. As we have heard, these are recycled carbon fuels and nuclear-derived fuels. While the noble Lord has created a degree of happiness with the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, some unhappiness still exists around the Chamber. These fuels can provide similar carbon emissions savings to the renewable fuels already considered under these schemes. Furthermore, these fuels are crucial for the production of sustainable aviation fuel, which is imperative to achieving the jet zero strategy and fulfilling the forthcoming sustainable aviation fuel mandate.
I will not speak for long on this, because we want to move on, but this amendment would insert a new clause in Chapter 3 of Part 3 of the Bill, providing for recycled carbon fuel and fuel derived from nuclear energy to be treated as renewable transport fuel. Amendment 74, in the name of my noble friend Lord Whitty, would make it clear that the regulator needs to ensure that consumers of heat networks have equivalent consumer protection to those of other suppliers. The Explanatory Notes say of Clause 166:
“This clause provides that GEMA will be the regulator for heat networks in England, Wales and Scotland. The Secretary of State may introduce regulations to appoint a different regulator by affirmative procedure. The regulator in Northern Ireland will be the Northern Ireland Authority for Utility Regulation (NIAUR) subject to a similar power to make changes by secondary legislation.”
I think that is something we can all agree with.
Lord Callanan (Con)
I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. Before I engage in the detail of the amendments, let me respond to the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett. I am sure I have never said that we should not listen to scientists; of course we should, but we should accept that there are sometimes different scientific opinions. I notice that the noble Baroness is very keen to listen to scientists on some occasions, but the Greens are totally opposed to listening to the vast majority of scientists who say that nuclear should provide an essential way of decarbonising the country’s economy.
By way of example, perhaps she would like to look at the mess her Green friends have got themselves into in Germany by their irrational objections to nuclear policy: they have ended up, now that they are in government, supporting the eradication of villages to open more lignite mines, the dirtiest form of coal production, because they got rid of all their nuclear capacity. Obviously they could not have predicted the gas shortages that would come along, but this is the problem you get yourself into with idealistic policies without any practical effect in the real world. Thankfully, I do not think there is any chance of the noble Baroness or her party being in government in the UK to make similar errors and mistakes.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
I have to correct the noble Lord and point out that there are Green Ministers in government in the UK.
Lord Callanan (Con)
I accept the noble Baroness’s point—yes, that was an error on my behalf. Of course, Patrick Harvie is my opposite number in Scotland and I discuss these matters with him quite often, although we have never had a nuclear discussion yet.
Turning to the amendments, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Ravensdale, Lord Teverson and Lord Lennie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, for their contributions on Amendment 58. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, for his engagement and pay tribute to the excellent work of my officials in drafting the amendments. In response to the very appropriate request by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, for clarification on fossil fuel waste, both the renewable transport fuel obligation and the forthcoming sustainable aviation fuel mandate are underpinned by strict sustainability and eligibility criteria. This includes requiring qualifying fuels to provide minimum greenhouse gas savings when compared with the fossil fuels they displace.
Fuels produced from nuclear energy are considered to be zero carbon; however, it will be important that we do not incentivise the diversion of electricity generated by nuclear power stations from current uses. The RTFO already includes criteria to ensure that renewable energy—
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
Perhaps the Minister might wish to correct himself. He just referred to nuclear energy as zero carbon. It is of course, as under the Government’s own classification, low carbon.
Lord Callanan (Con)
I think I said fuels produced from nuclear energy, but never mind.
The RTFO already includes criteria to ensure that renewable energy used for fuel production is additional to that which would otherwise be supplied, and the same principles would be developed for nuclear power.
With regards to the waste hierarchy, this policy makes effective use of what otherwise would be difficult to manage waste. RCFs are non-recyclable fossil wastes. Utilising these types of wastes to synthesise fuel is a better end-of-life fate than landfill or incineration. It will be important to mitigate risks and ensure adherence to the UK waste hierarchy, so we are in the process of concluding a consultation on detailed policy proposals to ensure that RCFs contribute to and meet our wider objective of effectively reducing the greenhouse gas emissions of fuels. Sustainability criteria are being carefully formulated in consultation with a wide range of scientists, technical experts, other government departments, fuel suppliers and wider stakeholders to ensure that the risks are carefully managed and mitigated. I hope that provides appropriate reassurance to the noble Baroness.
Lord Callanan
“Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act 2013
9 In Schedule 4 to the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act 2013, in paragraph 35(3) (membership of CMA panel), in the definition of “specialist utility functions”, after paragraph (b) insert—“(ba) an appeal under section 20 of the Energy Act 2023;”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment provides for appeals under Clause 20 to be “specialist utility functions”. This will attract special provisions relating to the composition of groups constituted to carry out such functions.
Lord Callanan
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on Lord Callanan’s amendment at page 43, line 4.
Lord Callanan
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment provides for the Parliamentary procedure to which regulations under new Clause (Payments to relevant market participants) are to be subject.
Lord Callanan (Con)
My Lords, in moving Amendment 16 I will speak also to Amendments 20, 21 and 30 standing in my name.
Amendment 30 further clarifies the scope of the modifications that the Secretary of State can make to certain licences for the purposes of facilitating or supporting the enforcement and/or administration of the hydrogen levy. Before making a proposed modification, the Secretary of State is required to consult the holder of any licence being modified. This will help to ensure that relevant bodies are engaged on proposed modifications. To ensure sufficient scrutiny of proposed modifications, the Secretary of State must also lay a draft of the modifications before Parliament, where they will be subject to a procedure similar to the draft negative resolution procedures used for statutory instruments.
I turn to Amendments 21, 20, and 16. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, again for their amendments in Committee. Having considered those amendments, the Government are introducing a new clause on the hydrogen levy provisions, which I hope noble Lords will find satisfying. The new clause will enable revenue support regulations to make provisions for amounts to be paid to levied market participants by a hydrogen production counterparty or hydrogen levy administrator. This includes the pass through of payments received by a hydrogen production counterparty from hydrogen producers under revenue support contracts, such as payments made to the counterparty when the market price of hydrogen is higher than the strike price. This will help to ensure that regulations can make provisions for fair and efficient payments and reconciliation arrangements.
Subsection (3) of this new clause was prompted specifically by consideration of Amendment 62 from the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, in Committee. This provision enables the Secretary of State to make regulations requiring that customers of levied market participants benefit in accordance with these regulations from payments made to levied market participants by a hydrogen production counterparty or levy administrator. I beg to move.
Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke (Lab)
My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 17. I will not take up much of the House’s time, because this is just about consistency.
The Government have defined a UK low-carbon hydrogen standard, which was updated in July this year, and it includes guidance and a calculator tool for hydrogen producers to use for greenhouse gas emissions reporting and sustainability criteria. It has been designed to demonstrate that low-carbon hydrogen production methods can meet a greenhouse gas emissions test and threshold, and this amendment would require the regulations to have regard to that standard when assessing the eligibility of low-carbon hydrogen production. Using the low-carbon hydrogen standard will ensure that there is consistency for the industry and its users, and will provide them with the degree of certainty that they are looking for when developing their projects.
Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)
I make reference to the Minister’s amendments, particularly the issue he highlighted of including the new subsection that would allow regulations to make provisions requiring that energy consumers benefit. I want to ask just one question on that. While we welcome that provision, there is a concern. If we are allowing regulations to make this provision, what guarantee is there that they will actually be used? Are the Government committing to using them, if they use Clause 66 powers?
I support all of my noble friend Lady Liddell’s comments on her amendment. The main amendment for me is that just referenced by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington. We spent a significant amount of time talking about this area in Committee, so I will not go through all the detail. However, as the noble Baroness mentioned, in the circumstances we are in, with the extra pressure on the cost of living from energy bills, why are we looking at a situation where we could be asking householders to pay more money? I acknowledge that there will be further consultation but I hope that, as well as it being done thoroughly, its conclusions will lead to the spirit of our amendment. As shown in our amendments, we believe that the Secretary of State could put a levy on gas shippers but not on gas and electricity suppliers, thus preventing responsibility for the levies falling on households.
We need to reflect on the spirit of the Bill—the whole idea is that, while reforming energy systems, we do everything we can to protect consumers and their ability to pay their bills. Every possible action should be taken to minimise the impact on consumers, focusing always on affordability. I am disappointed that the Minister has not gone further on this point. Unless he indicates a willingness to do so, due to the strong feelings surrounding the protection of consumers from inflated bills, I am minded to test the opinion of the House.
Lord Callanan (Con)
My Lords, I will start by addressing Amendments 18 and 19, which the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, have retabled from Committee. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, for her contribution. She requested further detail; I will provide clarification in writing, if that is okay with her.
These amendments seek to ensure that funding for the hydrogen production business model can be provided through the Consolidated Fund. They also seek to restrict where a levy may be placed, removing the option for levying energy suppliers and requiring that a levy could be placed only on gas shippers. They are intended, I assume, to take responsibility for levies away from households.
The powers in the Bill already enable Exchequer funding of the hydrogen production business model, which will initially be Exchequer-funded. It is therefore unnecessary to include additional provisions that enable the business model to be funded through the Exchequer.
The proposal in these amendments to require that the levy could be placed only on gas shippers will limit options for the levy design, with possible implications for its costs and ultimate impact on consumers. There is no such thing as a free lunch. A gas shipper levy would be a completely novel scheme, with administration and set-up costs that could be considerably higher than those required to implement a supplier levy; this is well understood.
The Government have set out their intention not to levy gas shippers in the near term. Levies on energy suppliers have been used in the past to support the deployment of low-carbon electricity and increase the proportion of green gas in the gas grid. These levies are well understood by the private sector. By taking a similar approach with the hydrogen levy, we can help provide investors with the confidence they need to invest in low-carbon hydrogen production projects and support the delivery of our 10-gigawatt production capacity ambition.
By seeking to ensure that the levy could be placed only on gas shippers, these amendments appear to try to protect energy consumers from the costs of a levy. However, as I outlined when they were tabled previously, we anticipate that any costs associated with a levy on gas shippers would ultimately be passed on to energy consumers in a very similar way to levies on energy suppliers. As I say, there is no such thing as a free lunch. It is the opinion of all the policy analysts that it is unlikely that the amendments would have their intended effect.
Lord Callanan
“Payments to relevant market participants(1) Revenue support regulations may make provision about amounts which must be paid—(a) by a hydrogen levy administrator to relevant market participants, or(b) by a hydrogen production counterparty—(i) to relevant market participants, or(ii) to a hydrogen levy administrator for the purpose of enabling payments to be made to relevant market participants.(2) Regulations by virtue of subsection (1) may make provision—(a) for a hydrogen levy administrator to calculate or determine, in accordance with such criteria as may be provided for by or under the regulations, amounts which are owed by—(i) the hydrogen levy administrator, or(ii) a hydrogen production counterparty;(b) for a hydrogen production counterparty to calculate or determine, in accordance with such criteria as may be provided for by or under the regulations, amounts which are owed by—(i) the hydrogen production counterparty, or(ii) a hydrogen levy administrator;(c) for the issuing of notices by a hydrogen levy administrator to require the payment by a hydrogen production counterparty of amounts calculated or determined by the hydrogen levy administrator in accordance with paragraph (a)(ii);(d) for the issuing of notices by a hydrogen production counterparty to require the payment by a hydrogen levy administrator of amounts calculated or determined by the hydrogen production counterparty in accordance with paragraph (b)(ii); (e) for the provision of copies of notices such as are mentioned in paragraph (c) or (d) to persons specified in the regulations, or the publication of such notices.(3) Revenue support regulations may make provision imposing on a relevant market participant who receives a payment from a hydrogen levy administrator or a hydrogen production counterparty a requirement to secure that customers of the relevant market participant receive, by a time specified in the regulations, such benefit from the payment as may be specified in or determined in accordance with the regulations.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment enables regulations to require payments to be made to levy payers and to require benefits from such payments to be passed on to customers of levy payers. Lord Callanan’s amendments at page 52, line 2 and page 59, line 23 are consequential on this amendment.
Lord Callanan
Member's explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for new Clause (Payments to relevant market participants).
Lord Callanan
“(1A) The power under each paragraph of subsection (1) may be exercised so that more than one appointment has effect under that paragraph at the same time.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment makes it clear that more than one appointment of a hydrogen production allocation body or carbon capture allocation body may have effect at the same time.
Lord Callanan
“Licence conditions regarding functions of certain allocation bodies(1) In section 7B of the Gas Act 1986, after subsection (5) insert—“(5ZA) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (a) of subsection (4), conditions for or in connection with the purpose set out in subsection (5ZB) may be included in a licence under section 7AA by virtue of that paragraph.(5ZB) The purpose is to facilitate or ensure the effective performance (whether in relation to Northern Ireland or any other part of the United Kingdom), at relevant times, of functions of a hydrogen production allocation body under Chapter 1 of Part 2 of the Energy Act 2023.(5ZC) In subsection (5ZB) “relevant times” means times when the hydrogen production allocation body holds a licence under section 7AA.”(2) Where—(a) the GEMA proposes by a modification under section 23 of the Gas Act 1986 of a licence under section 7AA of that Act to add, remove or alter a condition such as is mentioned in section 7B(5ZA) of that Act, and(b) that condition relates to functions of a hydrogen production allocation body that are exercisable in relation to Northern Ireland,section 23 of that Act has effect as if the persons listed in subsection (4)(b) of that section included the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland.”Member's explanatory statement
This new Clause makes it clear that licences under section 7AA of the Gas Act 1986 may include certain conditions relating to functions of certain bodies appointed under Part 2 of the Bill, and makes related provision about proposed licence modifications.
Lord Callanan
“(ca) for a revenue support counterparty to require a person specified, or of a description specified, in the regulations to provide information to it;”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment enables regulations to provide for a revenue support counterparty to require a person or description of persons to provide information to it.
Lord Callanan
“(3) Revenue support regulations may make provision for special allocation body requirements (or a subset of such requirements) to be enforceable by the GEMA as if they were relevant requirements within the meaning of sections 28 to 30O of the Gas Act 1986.(4) In this section “special allocation body requirements” means requirements imposed by or under revenue support regulations or regulations under section 68 on a hydrogen production allocation body, so far as the requirements relate to times when the body holds a licence under section 7AA of the Gas Act 1986 (including requirements in respect of functions of the body that relate to Northern Ireland).”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment provides for requirements imposed on a hydrogen production allocation body which holds a gas system planner licence to be able to be enforced by the application of provisions of the Gas Act 1986.
Lord Callanan
“(ba) a person in accordance with whose directions or instructions the members of a Chapter 1 entity which is a limited liability partnership are accustomed to act;”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment ensures that the Secretary of State will not, by virtue of exercising functions under Chapter 1 in relation to an entity which is a limited liability partnership, be treated (for the purposes of any relevant rule of law) as a person in accordance with whose directions etc the members of a limited liability partnership are accustomed to act.
Lord Callanan
“(6A) Provision included in a licence, or in a document or agreement relating to licences, by virtue of a power conferred by this section may do anything authorised for licences of that type by—(a) section 7(2A), (3), (4), (5) or (6A) of the Electricity Act 1989,(b) section 7B(5)(a), (6) or (7) of the Gas Act 1986,(c) Article 11(3), (4), (5), (6A) or (6B) of the Electricity (Northern Ireland) Order 1992 (S.I. 1992/231 (N.I. 1)), or(d) Article 10(3)(a) to (d), (4), (5) or (6A) of the Gas (Northern Ireland) Order 1996 (S.I. 1996/275 (N.I. 2)).(6B) For the purposes of subsection (6A)(c) and (d), the provisions referred to in those sub-paragraphs are to be read as if references to the Northern Ireland Authority for Utility Regulation included the Secretary of State.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment further supplements the Secretary of State’s powers under clause 83 to modify certain licences and related documents.
Lord Callanan
“Electricity system operator and gas system planner licences: modifications(1) The Secretary of State may, for the purpose of facilitating or ensuring the effective performance of functions specified in subsection (3), modify—(a) the conditions of a licence under section 6(1)(da) of the Electricity Act 1989 (electricity system operator licence);(b) a document maintained in accordance with the conditions of such a licence, or an agreement that gives effect to a document so maintained.(2) The Secretary of State may, for the purpose of facilitating or ensuring the effective performance of functions specified in subsection (3), modify—(a) the conditions of a licence under section 7AA of the Gas Act 1986 (gas system planner licence);(b) a document maintained in accordance with the conditions of such a licence, or an agreement that gives effect to a document so maintained.(3) The functions referred to in subsections (1) and (2) are—(a) functions of hydrogen production allocation bodies, and(b) other functions under this Chapter which are related to such functions.(4) Modifications under subsections (1) and (2) may only make provision in relation to times when the person holding the licence is a hydrogen production allocation body.(5) The provision referred to in subsection (4) includes consequential or transitional provision in relation to times when it is no longer the case that the person holding the licence is a hydrogen production allocation body. (6) Provision included in a licence, or in a document or agreement relating to licences, by virtue of a power under this section may in particular—(a) include provision of any kind that may be included in revenue support regulations or regulations under section 68;(b) do any of the things authorised for licences of that type by—(i) section 7B(5)(a), (5ZA), (6) or (7) of the Gas Act 1986, or(ii) section 7(3), (4), (5) or (6A) of the Electricity Act 1989.(7) Before making a modification under this section the Secretary of State must consult—(a) the holder of any licence being modified;(b) the GEMA;(c) such other persons as the Secretary of State considers it appropriate to consult.(8) Subsection (7) may be satisfied by consultation before, as well as by consultation after, the passing of this Act.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment enables the Secretary of State to modify electricity system operator licences and gas system planner licences, and related codes etc, for the purpose of facilitating etc the effective performance of certain functions relating to hydrogen production allocation bodies.
Lord Callanan
(b) section (Electricity system operator and gas system planner licences: modifications).”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment is supplementary to new Clause (Electricity system operator and gas system planner licences: modifications)
Lord Callanan
“(3A) Where regulations under section 85(1) provide for the imposition of a civil penalty, they must also provide for a right of appeal against the imposition of the penalty.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment requires regulations under Clause 85(1) (financing costs of decommissioning etc) that make provision for the imposition of civil penalties to include provision for a right of appeal.
Lord Callanan
“(1) Section 30 of the Energy Act 2008 (abandonment of installations) is amended in accordance with subsections (1A) to (1D).(1A) In subsection (1), for “, (2)” substitute “to (2)”.(1B) After subsection (1A) insert—“(1AA) Part 4 of the 1998 Act, in its application in relation to carbon storage installations, has effect with the modifications set out in subsection (1AB).(1AB) The modifications are as follows—(a) in section 30 of the 1998 Act, for subsections (5) and (6) substitute—“(5) This subsection applies to a person in relation to a carbon storage installation if—(a) the person has the right—(i) to use a controlled place for the storage of carbon dioxide (with a view to its permanent disposal, or as an interim measure prior to its permanent disposal),(ii) to convert any natural feature in a controlled place for the purpose of storing carbon dioxide (with a view to its permanent disposal, or as an interim measure prior to its permanent disposal), or(iii) to explore a controlled place with a view to, or in connection with, the carrying on of the activities within sub-paragraph (i) or (ii), and(b) either—(i) any activity mentioned in subsection (6) is carried on from, by means of or on the installation, or(ii) the person intends to carry on an activity mentioned in that subsection from, by means of or on the installation,or if the person had such a right when any such activity was last so carried on.(6) The activities referred to in subsection (5) are—(a) the use of a controlled place for the storage of carbon dioxide (with a view to its permanent disposal, or as an interim measure prior to its permanent disposal) in the exercise of the right mentioned in subsection (5)(a);(b) the conversion of any natural feature in a controlled place for the purpose of storing carbon dioxide (with a view to its permanent disposal, or as an interim measure prior to its permanent disposal) in the exercise of the right mentioned in subsection (5)(a);(c) the exploration of a controlled place in the exercise of the right mentioned in subsection (5)(a) with a view to, or in connection with, the carrying on of activities within paragraph (a) or (b) of this subsection; (d) the conveyance in the controlled place mentioned in subsection (5)(a) of carbon dioxide by means of a pipe or system of pipes, in the exercise of the right mentioned in subsection (5)(a); and(e) the provision of accommodation for persons who work on or from an installation which is or has been maintained, or is intended to be established, for the carrying on of an activity falling within any of paragraphs (a) to (d) of this subsection.”(b) in section 30(7) of that Act, in the words before paragraph (a), for “(c)” substitute “(e)”;(c) in section 31 of that Act, for subsection (B1) substitute—“(B1) This subsection applies to an activity if—(a) where the activity is within paragraph (a), (b) or (c) of section 30(6), the controlled place mentioned in that paragraph is one for which the installation is, or is to be, established or maintained;(b) where the activity is within paragraph (d) of section 30(6), the conveyance of the carbon dioxide relates to a controlled place for which the installation is, or is to be, established;(c) where the activity is within paragraph (e) of section 30(6), the installation is in a controlled place in respect of which P has a licence under section 18 of the Energy Act 2008.”(d) in section 31 of that Act, omit subsection (C1);(e) in section 45 of that Act, in the appropriate place insert—““controlled place” has the same meaning as in section 17 of the Energy Act 2008;”.”(1C) After subsection (4A) insert—“(4B) The powers in subsections (2)(b) and (4) include power to amend or repeal subsections (1AA) and (1AB).”(1D) In subsection (5) for “established or maintained” substitute “or has been maintained, or is intended to be or has been established,”.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment sets out modifications of Part 4 of the Petroleum Act 1998 as it applies to carbon storage installations and extends the definition of “carbon storage installation” in section 30 of the Energy Act 2008.
Lord Callanan
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment and Lord Callanan’s amendments at page 83 line 27 and page 84 line 9 make it clear that the duties in subsections (1) and (2) of this Clause only affect functions related to carbon dioxide capture, usage and storage policy.
Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)
I will speak to Amendment 40 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington. I acknowledge that this will be her last meeting for some time; I think I am allowed to say that. In my relatively short time here, I have come to value her passionate interjections and her incredible knowledge on the subjects on which she has spoken. I wish the noble Baroness well in her temporary visit overseas and look forward to when she is able to come back and join us. I hope that we can keep in contact in the meantime.
While we do not support new fossil fuel extraction licences, we have to be mindful of existing licences and renewals. We have to take these issues seriously.
It is fair to say that we do not want to turn off the taps, so there will be merit in reducing carbon emissions from those existing licences. To what extent are the Government considering geological storage as a solution? I am sure we have all received briefings giving us the background on how successfully CO2 has been stored over many years. There is an opportunity, but how much can be stored, and can we make full potential of the opportunities that are presented to us off the shores of this island?
Lord Callanan (Con)
I also pay tribute to all the work that the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, has done. It is indeed a great mystery to all of us why she seemingly wishes to swap the lovely, warm, calm weather of southern England for California, but I suppose that will become clearer over time. I thank her for the contribution she has made, and I am sure that we will hear a lot more from her in the future.
I am happy to contribute to this debate on Amendment 40 and the issue of the carbon take-back obligation for fossil fuel extraction. The concept of such an obligation is indeed worthy of debate, but the noble Baroness will understand when I say that its inclusion in the Bill is a little premature. Our primary instrument to decarbonise the UK economy is the emissions trading scheme, which provides a market price for emissions of carbon dioxide, incentivising investment in decarbonisation and ensuring that it happens wherever—and however—it is most cost effective to do so.
Introducing a carbon take-back obligation now, at such a pivotal time for the development of CCUS in the UK, could create uncertainty for industry and have a detrimental delaying effect on investment, resulting in investors looking to opportunities that exist in many other countries—perhaps even in California; one never knows. Such an obligation could also increase the costs of CCUS, making UK production of steel, chemicals, refinery products and other industrial products more expensive than that of their competitors, potentially impacting on our industrial competitiveness. All these issues need further detailed policy consideration before further legislation can be considered.
As I mentioned to the noble Baroness before the debate, the CCUS Council is the Government’s primary forum for engaging with representatives across the CCUS sector, and we have indeed asked the council to consider and provide advice on carbon take-back obligations. The concept indeed warrants further consideration, but I am sure the noble Baroness will accept that it is not for this Bill at this time. With that explanation, I hope she will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Worthington (CB)
My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who have spoken in this debate, to the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, for adding her name, to the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, for her support, and to the Minister for his comments. This is indeed my last outing before I depart after recess. I want to say thank you to everyone who has made me feel so welcome in the 12 years I have been here on and off, intermittently, on different Benches. It has been a privilege and I will genuinely miss it. When things are coming to an end, often you value them even more. Hopefully, I will be back—in the words of Arnold Schwarzenegger.
On the amendment, I am encouraged that this idea is being picked up by the CCUS Council. It seems that it will be difficult for the oil, gas and coal sector to come forward with this as a united voice, but it would definitely be good for it. It would give it clarity and certainty and enable it to take back control of its choices of projects or investments. It would be able to do it from the private sector, knowing that it is obliged to do it, and it would create a market mechanism through which it could operate, which I believe would reduce costs overall to the consumer and to industrial customers. Industry is very good at finding solutions: give it an obligation, get the engineers on it and it will find solutions. It will determine whether the price will come down or whether indeed it will be better for it to pivot fully into a cleaner system based on electricity and clean electricity rather than continuing to take things out of the ground and burn them.
I have some sympathy with the belief that it is probably high time we stopped burning things and moved on, especially as we—Great Britain, the United Kingdom—have grown rich on the back of the industrial revolution that seems to be dragging on. However, we now know that there are alternatives. There is a cleaner, cheaper, more efficient system available to us using electricity wherever it is possible, and where it cannot be used, deriving clean fuels from that electricity. That is the future. The chemical industry and the chemical-based energy system will decline because it will not be able to compete with that manufactured clean alternative. We have to manage that decline and it is incumbent on Governments to help manage it fairly and transition us out of it. This sort of policy would do that, and the industry should embrace it. I hope that the other place will debate it and that a campaign will emerge around it. I look forward to watching that from sunny California, and I wish your Lordships all the best of luck with the end of the Bill. Thank you. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Lord Callanan
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment and Lord Callanan’s amendment at page 91 line 6 revise the definition of “relevant infrastructure” for the purposes of Clause 99.
Lord Callanan
“(A1) Scheme regulations that, by virtue of section 106(3), provide that a person is liable to a financial penalty must also provide for a person to have a right of appeal to a court or tribunal against the imposition of the penalty.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment requires regulations under Clause 101(1) (low-carbon heat schemes) that make provision for the imposition of financial penalties to include provision for a right of appeal.