Energy Bill [HL]

Lord Teverson Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 5th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 7, to which I have added my name. I declare my interest as a co-chair of Peers for the Planet. I apologise for not being present at Second Reading; I wrote to the Minister, and I am grateful for his detailed response to some of my points. I will endeavour to be brief, as this is Committee, and will simply explain why we consider that Amendments 7 and 242, together, bridge the divide that is evident between the two sides of the House, as witnessed in this debate.

The noble Lord, Lord Moylan, was absolutely right that you cannot simply declare that you want to win a war; you need to have tactics and a strategy for winning it. Our Amendment 7, complemented by Amendment 242, provides that strategy, which is, as the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, eloquently articulated, fundamentally underpinned by physics. Energy is a question of physics and, if we understand that, we will know that we are not struggling towards net zero but in fact doing very well on that path.

The clarity with which I now see industry communicating on this issue is far greater than it has been over the last decade. It is saying: “Electrify everything that can be electrified and use our abundant resources of clean electricity to decarbonise.” That is how you square the three principal objectives of energy policy: affordability, cleanliness, and resilience and security. That pathway is so clear now that the Bill could be hugely enhanced by having this set out at the front.

I support the Government’s intentions. They seek to address the trilemma of those three objectives, which are fundamental to winning this war against climate change and against the energy crisis that we currently face. That very energy crisis is an interesting reason why we are powering towards net zero faster than ever before: it is absolutely clear that the volatility of gas and oil underpins it, and we cannot forget that. What is the Government’s current policy? It is to reduce our reliance on those volatile commodities, which would serve everyone’s needs: it would help us reduce bills and would give the consumer a reliable source of energy.

The Bill has many measures which we will come on to debate that will help us along that path. But it lacks an overarching statement of objective. We now need to revisit the debates we had on the Energy Act 2013 about the need for a decarbonisation target to provide clarity over this direction of travel. We all sat there—many noble Lords here today were there—and had debates on why knowing our way towards that target was needed for investor and stakeholder confidence. It is now very clear that it is needed because, as the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, pointed out, simple mathematics shows that we still have a lot of technology that needs to be put into place to become operational, and we need a plan that monitors progress towards that.

Subsequently, we have added an extra dimension to this: electrification. As I said, physics tells us that electrification is fundamentally more efficient; you will get six to seven times more usable energy from an electricity-based system than if you rely on fossil fuels or hydrogen. Six to seven times fewer wind turbines will be needed to provide the same benefit in terms of heat or transport. That should be of interest to everybody; it saves costs and helps make the system more secure.

So I hope that the Minister will look at our amendment carefully. It adds an extra dimension to this Bill, which will give it so much clarity so that everybody will have a clear sense of the path that we are on. As I have said, the UK should be very proud of the efforts it has taken to date. We are not as exposed to the energy crisis as other countries, because of investments we have made over the last two decades and because we have taken seriously this objective of making our system more resilient and fit for the future. There is an international dimension—I am sure we will come on to talk about this in other parts of the Bill—but it is absolutely clear that the thing that we can do best at the moment is continue on the path of decarbonising our electricity system using technologies that locate cheap power on our shores, to rid ourselves of the insecurity and volatility of gas prices and to move forward to an efficient system that converts primary energy into heat, transport and work. If we can do that, we will show the world how it should be done: do not pick winners but instead create a system that is sensible and will provide the right guardrails for capital investment so that money will flow and we will all benefit. I look forward to the Minister’s response to our amendment.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, it is always a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, and although we do not always agree on absolutely everything, I reckon that I agree with about 99.5% of her speech.

First, I declare my interest as chair and director of Aldustria Ltd, an energy storage company; I will try to avoid too much discussion of that area. On these amendments, I very much thank the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, for having opened our debate today. I very much agree with the principle of what the Opposition Front Bench is trying to achieve here. What this Bill does not have—the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, put it very well indeed—is great focus or coherence. It would be good to start trying to improve that through a type of preamble that puts context, including strategic context, at the beginning of the Bill. I hope that we can refine that more on Report; it may not be perfect, but perhaps we can find a way of doing that between us.

I also agree with the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, about the pricing of electricity and how that works. As he says, our European colleagues are looking at that very strongly now. There must be a better way of doing this; it cannot make sense to the public that we charge and price our main energy sources on the marginal cost of the last producer. Clearly, that does not make sense, and it does not do the reputation of the fossil fuel industry any good either. Yes, they might use their money to give back to shareholders—hopefully they will use it for different types of investment and diversification—but it besmirches the whole sector, and we need to find a way around that.

Where I would disagree very strongly with the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, is around trying to game or look at alternative dates for net zero. It seems to me that in September 1939 the Cabinet probably did not look at whether to declare war on Germany this month or two years later or four years later. We may criticise Neville Chamberlain for all sorts of things in retrospect, but I guess that is not one of them. It was an absolute threat to our future security, and we made a decision. If we think of the costs to this country, and to us and consumers, of our right stand on Ukraine, I guess that we have not done those calculations either—because we know that Putin’s war has to fail and that, for European security and our long-term security, we in the western world need to pursue the tactics that we have.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, for her amendments, particularly in mentioning rural aspects of oil—my own household is on oil, and we are not covered by a price cap—and in particular business. In all the media coverage that we have had on this very real energy crisis over the past months, it is funny how business has very much taken second place to households and consumers. Clearly, households and consumers are ultimately the most important, but business is completely fundamental to our economic performance and being able to solve this crisis in the long term.

I am not absolutely sure about energy from waste plants. Clearly, it does not make sense to export it, but the real challenge there is in starting to raise recycling again, or even AD in terms of other parts of household waste. I was so impressed by the forensic look by the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, at investment need and the scale of the challenge, and also at how we need to measure that and put proper planning into how we meet it.

The one other area that I would like to mention comes back to 2013 and the then Energy Bill, mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington. At that time, one big thing that we discussed was the energy trilemma of security, cost and decarbonisation. The noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, brought that back up again. But what this crisis, and the almost a decade between these two Bills, has shown, is that it is no longer a trilemma—they all work in exactly the same direction. Renewables are now cheaper than fossil fuels, as we know—it is why we have the huge price increases that we do. Our security is reinforced by having much more renewable generation on our own seas and our own land—and, as a result, we have lower costs and a decarbonised energy system as well. We have moved on since that time.

We need to have a focus in this Bill, and I support the amendments. We need to move on in this debate, but I am absolutely sure that we will need that coherence when we get to Report.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, the whip, the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, has spoiled a lot of my fun today, because I was going to tell the Government exactly what they needed to do if they were going to produce an Energy Bill that deals with the crises that we are facing. We are facing three immense crises at the moment, and one of them is, of course, the climate crisis. There are strong whiffs of climate denialism in your Lordships’ House, which I find absolutely staggering, considering that the science is so very clear on it. However, it is a bit last century, that sort of attitude, so I understand why it might exist here in your Lordships’ House. But we have those crises—the climate emergency, the ecological crisis and the cost of living crisis—and this Energy Bill is so topical. It is exactly the sort of thing that we need to bring forward so that we can deal with all these crises, and I guess make life better for millions of people in Britain and the rest of the world.

I agree with a lot of what the noble Lord, Lord Howell, said. He made the point that this does not do the job. Also, I am very sympathetic to Labour’s initial amendments. I understand why they are in there, but it reads a lot more like the sort of issues that a Labour Government would bring forward—hopefully not too long in the future.

I am concerned that our time is going to be wasted on this Bill, because we have a new Prime Minister—a climate-wrecking ideologue who will make it incredibly difficult for us to get the sort of issues into this Bill that we need. The noble Lord, Lord Howell, and other noble Lords also mentioned nuclear. We have to get real on the fact that nuclear is not the answer. Nuclear power stations take a long time to come online. There will be all sorts of problems even getting them started, so they are not the answer. We have to think faster than that; they just will not work.

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The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, referred to the construction industry. Are we specific about that when looking at mineral carbonation? There is already at least one company that makes the reasonable claim—perhaps still to be fully attested—to be a carbon capture and storage producer of cement blocks, using a process of mineral carbonation that combines waste slag from the steel industry with carbon from industrial plants. We need to leave these possibilities open and ensure that they are encouraged, to make sure that a company that develops such a plan does not then run into a block of legislation that stops it being able to deliver because it would then be left in a difficult commercial situation.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I wish to speak to my Amendment 10. First, let me say that I very much agree with the drift of the debate so far, in that carbon capture, usage and storage has got a lot more real in the past few years—I give the Government credit as well—in terms of clusters and using carbon capture, primarily for industrial processes. What we should not be using it for is gas power stations that are CS-ready and which through carbon capture become much less efficient in their energy production. Clearly, we should be substituting gas and not using it in that way. The same absolutely goes for usage, where possible. I am sure that a lot of fizzy drinks and other such things use it as well.

In my Amendment 10, I am concerned that there should be in the Bill a duty for the Secretary of State. We should have transparency in the sector. What we are trying to do here is stop cross-subsidy between networks and network users. In many ways, this is a probing amendment. I would be interested to hear the Minister’s reaction on how we can keep these networks and markets transparent so that we can assess users, sectors and networks in their own right and avoid transfer charging or subsidy from one to the other without understanding whether there is a case for it.

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[Lord Callanan (Con)]

If the licence is transferred to another body, it will also have to be approved under the same process. You cannot just wake up in the morning and decide to transfer your legal obligations to somebody else who is not an appropriate, fit and proper person. So, of course, that will be taken into consideration.

I must say that the noble Baroness is wrong to provide the parallel with the existing water companies. I do not think that anybody is arguing that people who hold those licences are not fit and proper to do the job. There is a legitimate argument about levels of investment and how that money is being spent, et cetera. However, no one is arguing about their competence; the noble Baroness is trying to draw a very bad parallel there.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I hope the Minister will forgive me for not understanding some of this, because it has raised a number of questions in my mind. If the CO₂ is put, say, under the sea—as we have been talking about—who actually owns the CO₂ once it has gone there? Who is liable for it and who has the legal right to the storage area itself? Given that most of these are created from the oil and gas that has been extracted, does that belong to the lease of the fossil fuel company that extracted them and does that last for ever? I do not understand how this works and where the liabilities land.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, said, if an organisation says, “I don’t want to do this any more”, there is no obligation for anybody else to take it on—so there will be a legal limbo. Perhaps the Minister could explain how this licensing works within that context. It seems to me that the Crown Estate will come into this somewhere, but maybe the Minister could enlighten me. I apologise again, because I should know the answer to all of these questions.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am happy to confirm the legal detail of the system to the noble Lord in writing, but my understanding is that the operator of the site would bear the responsibility. That is precisely why we have built in the relative decommissioning costs. The fund will have to be established and the operator will have to show that the ability is there to decommission the relevant pipe work, et cetera. I assume that that assurance and other long-term effects will also be built into that condition, but I will be very happy to confirm that in writing to the noble Lord.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

That would be very useful.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I say first of all that I agree with every word that my noble friend Lady Blake said in her excellent speech, particularly that she is looking forward to the return of my noble friend Lady Liddell—so am I. After all, on this issue she is the master and I am the apprentice, as has been fairly obvious today.

The Minister has again given us a very detailed and helpful reply. However, what worries me slightly is that I still think it strange that those involved in the commercial operation of this—the CCSA members and the CCSA itself—have different interpretations of the draft of the Bill from the officials advising the Minister. I hope that, between now and Report, there can be some discussions to see whether all those in the industry accept the Minister’s explanations today. Otherwise, we can look forward to further amendments on Report. In the meantime, I withdraw my amendment.

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[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome very much that we have moved on to the area of enforcement because, if there is one thing that is true in anything to do with the environment, we make legislation—very effectively, often—but our enforcement does not work, because of either lack of will or lack of resources.

I would like assurance from the Minister, if possible, that the regulator will be resourced enough—I would be interested to know what conversations have taken place over this—to make sure that enforcement does take place. Of course, for enforcement to happen, particularly in physical facilities, there needs to be inspection. I would be interested in understanding who will be inspecting and what the resource level is likely to be.

I come back to a very good point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Blake of Leeds, on safety, which was not answered by the Minister earlier. CO₂, although not toxic like carbon monoxide, is a gas that, if exposed, can be suffocating. I would like to understand how enforcement on subsea storage facilities can take place.

Enforcement is good, but my questions are these: how will it be resourced, what is the programme for it and can it happen sufficiently to ensure safety?

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, the government amendments appear to correct an oversight in the Bill. If noble Lords are confused then so am I. I am not entirely sure what the Minister was saying, but it appears to me that there was a stage missing in the original drafting of this Bill and the attempt now is to put in that stage—which is, in effect, a final warning to licence holders to act in specific ways in order to become compliant. If that is right, then I understand it and I do not oppose it, but I want to make sure that I understand correctly what the Government are trying to do. If I am right then, other than to point out the original omission, we do not oppose these measures; we just want clarification of what is being put into the Bill.

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Moved by

[Lord Teverson]

38: Clause 57, page 51, line 34, at end insert—
“(1A) When making regulations under this section the Secretary of State must also publish an explanation of how revenue support mechanisms deliver in line with the CCUS Strategy and Policy Statement and the overall Strategy and Policy Statement, and how milestones relate to net zero pathways set out by the Climate Change Committee.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment seeks to ensure that policy processes are aligned with the Government’s Strategy and Policy Statement.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

I asked specifically that all these amendments be grouped together because they have one aim: to make sure that there is a coherence between policy measures and the net zero pathway that is the Government’s own aim. Of course, the Government have undertaken to produce a government strategy and policy statement and the Bill requires a statement focusing on CCUS to be produced as well. However, our contention is that there is no current requirement for policy and infrastructure planning processes to be based on a consistent set of assumptions about the future. That means, in practice, that two projects could get a green light despite being justified by incompatible visions of system need, ensuring that one would ultimately be left stranded. Of course, that does not lead to confidence in this area. So there could be incompatible visions.

For instance, hydrogen electrification visions of the future involve very different supporting infrastructure, and a lack of coherence could create expensive infrastructure which, at the end of the day, is unusable or redundant. The strategy provides an opportunity to set out the latest set of assumptions, projections and decision methodology and I am sure that is what the Government want to do to underpin their policy, to which other processes should align. What we are really trying to do in these amendments is to make sure, practically, that the actions that arise from the Bill are coherent and tie in with the policy statements of the Government. It seems absolutely straightforward to me: it is that missing link, if you like, that pushes together intent in these various areas and makes sure that the strategy is coherent in its delivery. It is as simple as that and I hope the Government and the Minister will look favourably on that approach. I beg to move.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I do not have an enormous amount to add to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. I highlight again the significance of linking strategy and policy: that is crucial. We will discuss in future debates the issues around the role of the ISOP and its independence, and, particularly in the context of this afternoon’s debate, look at long-term thinking, making sure that we get all the checks and balances in place. We are in a very fast-moving environment and need to make sure that we are absolutely on top of all the changes that are taking place. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, highlighted the risk of lack of coherence: we need to make sure that everything is nailed down, line by line, and I am sure we will have further discussion on these areas as we go through different aspects of the Bill. I look forward to the Minister’s conclusions on this group of amendments.

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Therefore, given the reassurances I have been able to provide, I hope the noble Lord will feel able not to press his amendments.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

I thank the Minister for his response and reassurances. Obviously, I am fairly disappointed with the overall reply. On the principles of coherence and delivery, I will read what he has said and think about coming back to this issue on Report. I thank him for going through the Government’s feelings on this issue in detail and may respond fully later during the passage of the Bill. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 38 withdrawn.