Private Sector Pension Abuse

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope Excerpts

Monday 22nd January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Buscombe]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for mentioning that the Prime Minister clearly takes this situation extremely seriously. He reiterated that we intend to strengthen the regulator’s powers. Importantly, we have done that with care, introducing a Green Paper last year, and we have committed to the publication of a White Paper in the spring. Although the Pensions Regulator and the Pension Protection Fund manage the process of company insolvencies, and while most pension schemes are managed successfully and very robustly, we accept that there are instances where it might be possible to improve and strengthen the powers. We have received more than 800 responses to the Green Paper. The department is analysing these and will bring forward proposals as quickly as possible.

It is important to emphasise—I sense that the noble Lord opposite appreciates this—that it is hypothetical to suggest that a different set of powers for the Pensions Regulator, such as the ability to clear corporate activities, would have necessarily made a material difference to the pension schemes. Having said that, there has been strong communication between the regulator and Carillion since the middle of last year, when a profit warning was announced. But of course, a profit warning is a warning as opposed to a transaction, so it was not necessarily a sign that the company overall was in such difficulty.

It is important to stress that we are very keen to strengthen the powers but, at the same time, we need to ensure that the new measures we introduce build on existing measures that to a large extent have worked extremely well since 2004, as I said before. However, we want to strengthen the Pensions Regulator’s anti-avoidance framework and information-gathering powers.

I am afraid that as yet, I cannot be certain about when legislation will be forthcoming. Obviously, we will look forward to and welcome the consultations and responses to the White Paper.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

My question is further to the important one raised by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, about timing. Whereas the Statement is correct to say that big insolvencies happen infrequently, when they do happen they strike at the confidence among employees about occupational pension savings altogether. I hope the Minister shares the House’s concern about the indirect impact this may have on auto-enrolment. As the Minister knows, some important steps are being introduced in the next phase of auto-enrolment in the near future but, if there is a White Paper in March, it may be 2020 or 2021 before the regulations are available to regulators, auditors and others. Will the Minister undertake to do everything in her power to push forward proper and sensible consideration of the regulations to be introduced, with as much dispatch as it is possible to muster?

[Baroness Buscombe]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. I share his concerns about the direct impact this might have on those who have pension plans and on those who are retired and in receipt of their pensions. Our drive on auto-enrolment has been extremely successful thus far. More than 9 million people have enrolled, via the auto-enrolment scheme, up to the end of last year. We will push this issue with as much dispatch as is sensible. Having said that, at the same time we do not want a knee-jerk reaction. We will publish our White Paper in the spring. We want to be sure that we make the right decisions and do not compromise the established, robust and, to a large extent, successful scheme that exists for the current powers of the Pensions Regulator. Yes, we must do all that we can. I am pleased to say that, as I speak, colleagues in another place are now debating the Second Reading of the single financial guidance body Bill, which I hope will support giving people advice and good counsel. The Pensions Advisory Service and others are already working on the Carillion issue. We are looking all the time to improve the system, to reassure people and to give them good advice and guidance on their pensions. We will legislate to do the right thing as soon as we can.

Pensions

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope Excerpts

Wednesday 13th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

My Lords, it is a real pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann. She has done so much in this area, a lot of it behind the scenes and a lot in public. She is a knowledgeable and experienced hand in these matters, and I am pleased to follow her speech.

I am grateful to my noble friend for introducing this debate. I wish to add just one or two contributions. The first thing I want to say to the Government is that this is quite a modest request. The case is powerful, but we are talking about further consideration. In her film the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, would make the point that the Government are waiting for this to go away. I do not think this will go away. I will certainly come to see the film. She needs to add a villain from the Treasury, and I cannot think of anybody sufficiently obnoxious off the top of my head, but I will send her a note in the morning. I think this was a mistake that was made by the Treasury in 2011. I was around at the time—I had been chairman of the Select Committee on work and pensions—and I think Parliament did not understand the consequences of what it was doing when it passed the 2011 Act.

This is a serious act of omission. It has been done by successive Governments. It is right to say that Steve Webb was in place at the time, but I think his hand was forced away from the 1995 decision, which was sensible, to the 2011 decision, which is now causing severe problems. The DWP is very good at creating policy but absolutely hopeless at delivery and implementation. I do not say this against the professionals in the department. Some of us are old enough to remember the controversy when housing benefit was introduced, then there was the Child Support Agency and now we have universal credit. We really must learn some lessons about some of the terrible mistakes we make in the translation of policy into delivery.

I was clear in 1995 from the report of the Pensions Commission that 15 years’ notice was the minimum required and that these changes should be made only once every 10 years. I was certain that that was a safe policy, that the journey had started and that things would turn out well. Since then it has to be said that the context has completely changed for everybody, but particularly for these women who have lost these pension years. With the economic crisis of 2008, and if we go forward with the Government’s policy of withdrawing from the European Union, growth levels and the family income and wages available to some of these households in retirement will get worse. There has been increased age-related morbidity across the generations and we obviously have a bigger population. The future is not getting any easier in terms of the economic background.

The point I really want to make more than any other is that the totality of the savings over the middle term, over a number of years, is £30 billion. Steve Webb asked for a proper sum of money to deal with this problem but only got a third of what he needed. It seems to me inconceivable that over a longer period of time, with that total saving of £30 billion, this cannot be mitigated in transition. Whether the WASPI campaigners are right to not settle for anything less than the full compensation—if I was them I would do the same—there is a strong case for looking at a negotiation with the Government that would settle for somewhat less. However, they cannot do that because the Government are not talking to them. It seems to me that the combination of the fact that £30 billion is being saved over time with the fact that the Government will not even discuss or defend their position—they will do nothing of the kind—is contrary to natural justice. As has been said in some of the powerful speeches from colleagues, it is the handling of the issue that makes this all worse. People are getting really angry for understandable reasons.

I support the WASPI campaign. It is deliberately going through the ombudsman, which I hope will bear fruit and lead to the further consideration that this Question this evening is calling for. The Government need to accept responsibility. This was a serious act of omission. I do not think the House of Commons in 2011 fully understood what it was doing, and there is a very powerful case now for further consideration of the WASPI claim. If the Government are not prepared to see the representatives of those who have lost these significant sums of money, their campaign will be supported in Parliament. The Government should not expect this to go away. I do not believe it will unless they come up with something sensible to put in place to get the transitional protection that the WASPI women are looking for.

Universal Credit

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope Excerpts

Thursday 23rd November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement and for advance sight of it. We welcome the concessions, modest though they are. However, we also need to recognise the limitations of what is on offer compared to the scale of the problem, an issue to which I shall return in a moment. The decision to remove the waiting days is particularly welcome. That period was increased to seven days by the Government as a cost-saving measure and it has significantly added to the pressure on universal credit claimants. So that is good news, although it is disappointing that that will not start until next February.

It is good that people who are in receipt of housing benefit when they begin to claim universal credit will have their housing benefit payments run on for two weeks. However, I have a number of questions about that. There is quite a lot of ambiguity in the documentation—one hopes it is not studied ambiguity, but certainly it is not clear quite what a lot of these things will mean. First, can the Minister confirm that that payment will be available to anyone moving on to universal credit, not just those who are going to get moved on en masse by the DWP in what it calls the managed migration programme? I am sure the answer is yes. If it is not, that would of course mean that if you happened to live in a universal credit area and something changed in your life—you had a baby, you started a new job, you got married or divorced—you would be forced on to universal credit, and you would need that money every bit as much as someone who was moved on in a year’s time. So will the Minister clarify that?

Secondly, if it is available to those who are “migrating naturally”—as the jargon has it—as opposed to in a group, what will someone get in housing benefit? Is it two weeks of whatever they happen to be getting? For example, if I were in low-paid work and getting a little bit of housing benefit, do I get two weeks of that, even though the reason why I am going on to universal credit might be that I have lost my job and normally I would get all my rent paid? Is it two weeks of my little bit or two weeks of the amount that I would be entitled to? Who will pay that? Is it the local authority? Is it actually a run-on of housing benefit or is the DWP paying an equivalent amount from the centre? If it is the latter, will anyone have to apply for it?

On the advances, it is good that from January 2018 new claimants will be able to borrow a 100% advance on their first month’s universal credit and that all advances can then be repaid over 12 months, as I believe is the case already for those transferring in from benefits, rather than six months for new claimants. When this is discussed in another place, though, Ministers often sound as if they think that giving people access to money is the same thing as giving them money. My bank gives me ready access to money. Unfortunately, that is called an overdraft; it is not in fact extra money. The Government have created a problem by forcing poor people on to a system where they have to wait six weeks—now five—for money, and the solution that they have come up with is to make them take on more debt. In effect, the system moves them from a six-week wait to a five-week wait and a large extra amount of debt. If you can borrow twice as much money but over twice as long a period, you are still paying back the same amount each month. The fact that UC is less generous than before also means that for a whole year, as well as getting less money, you have to survive on even less because you have to repay each month some of the debt that you were given to enable you to get through the first month.

So I ask for some clarification. Will this higher advance of 100% be offered to all claimants, not just to those coming over through natural or managed migration? Will it be an entitlement? At the moment, the DWP can refuse to give you an advance if it thinks either that you cannot afford to repay it or that you have money anyway or could get it. Will everyone be allowed to do it?

Most obviously, why did the Government not just move to two-weekly payments? There is already provision in DWP guidance for some people to ask, and to be allowed, to be paid fortnightly. Why did they not let everyone choose to do that instead of creating this five-week problem? Most people will not benefit from the housing benefit extra bit and will just get a six-week wait reduced to a five-week wait.

My other big point concerns the rollout. The Minister explained that the Government will slow down the rollout of universal credit, but the various things that she mentioned come on at different times. Some things start in January, there are other bits of help in February and the housing help starts in April. Why do the Government not pause universal credit for, say, six months, so that at least by the time it starts again, all those bits of help are in place? Otherwise, if you have the misfortune to find that it comes to your area in January, February, March or April, you will not benefit from some of them, although that is not your fault. Why do they not just pause it?

The Government pledged that universal credit will be simple to access, make work pay and lift nearly 1 million people out of poverty. In the excellent debate we had last week led by my noble friend Lady Hollis, we heard that it is failing on all fronts. During that debate, with the exception of a few touchingly loyal Members on the Government Benches, Members raised a whole range of problems about universal credit, of which only the most obvious was the six-week wait. None of those have been addressed at all. There was nothing in the Budget Statement to improve the taper or restore work allowances to make work pay, nothing to deal with the mess for self-employed people on UC.

The Minister mentioned in the Statement the problem of cliff edges in the previous system, but there is nothing to deal with passported benefits. A consultation out at the moment suggests that if a family earns over a certain amount, it immediately loses all entitlement to free school meals, so an extra hour’s work can mean that you lose free school meals for all your kids. That is the very definition of a cliff edge. Crucially, there is nothing to deal with the year-on-year cut in the real-terms value of universal credit, which has been frozen, along with most other working-age benefits. So I am sorry to say that there is nothing to stop the inexorable rise in inequality—especially child poverty, which the IFS has modelled so carefully.

I really do welcome these measures, but they are modest. They are worth about £300 million a year in the context of many billions of pounds of cuts. I fear that universal credit is like a great big liner. As it steams along, the Government have put a bit of water on the fire on the deck that everybody was pointing to while not, I am sorry to say, doing anything to stop the ship heading for the rocks, having already been holed by the Treasury in successive, very significant cuts. I urge the Minister to turn her attention next to the substantial problems within universal credit.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

My Lords, I am happy to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, and I agree that the statement that we had in the Budget deals only with the journey on to—the gateway into—universal credit. I welcome the Statement. To be realistic, if the Government had not said something, it would have been impossible to resist the pressure to delay the further rollout of universal credit, and I do not agree that that would be sensible—I never have.

I have two questions for the Minister. For the reasons that the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, set out at length, the delivery of these changes will be difficult. Can she assure us that they will land, be locked in and operate to the benefit of claimants in future, without fear of further disruption, letdown and distress? It is a very tall order. Some of these changes start next month. Given the background to the operational implementation of universal credit, it is not unreasonable to be suspicious about the implementation of the immediate changes that have been announced, welcome as they are. Can the Minister assure us that she personally will ensure that they all work and will make claimants’ lives easier, and that she will report to the House regularly on the success or otherwise of the rollout?

But these are only gateway measures; they are only easing the transition to universal credit. The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, is quite right: the rising costs and fixed benefits that low-income households are facing will condemn some of these families to a very bleak future. That necessitates my second question: will the Government start planning to use some of the £3 billion annual savings within UC alone—never mind the other ongoing cuts and freezes—to ease people’s road into work by increasing work allowances and tapers? If we do not do something of that kind, it will be very difficult successfully to promote the programme of progression through work into sustainable longer-term jobs and careers.

Once the difficulties of getting people on to universal credit are overcome, and people are in a steady state of receiving their universal credit payments monthly, the next big political battle will be trying to get the Government to be more realistic about the money available to support people when they are on universal credit.

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, I will do my best to reply to the multitude of questions. I will begin by saying that they seem to be in contrast with the response made in another place by, for example, the right honourable member for Birkenhead, who was very congratulatory about what we have achieved in this package.

Let me be clear: today’s package is worth £1.5 billion over the scorecard period, and will ensure that claimants get money, and get it sooner. We should remember that we are already spending more than £95 billion on benefits for people of working age. So all that I am hearing about cuts and how terrible it all is—all it is doing is frightening people. That has to stop.

Financial Guidance and Claims Bill [HL]

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope Excerpts

3rd reading (Minutes of Proceedings): House of Lords
Tuesday 21st November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, I add my thanks and congratulations to all concerned in this area. We now have within the objectives the reference in paragraph (d) to,

“the needs of people in vulnerable circumstances”.

That is hugely relevant. As chair of the former Lords Select Committee on Financial Exclusion, I know that we spent a lot of our time looking at the problems faced by people in vulnerable circumstances. We focused particularly on the needs of people with mental health problems and disabilities and the vulnerable elderly. We received a lot of evidence on that point, and I know that many people will be very glad to see these words included.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

My Lords, I add my congratulations; this has been a very good outcome. The Minister has done a splendid job in reflecting the concerns. The Bill is now much better as a result, and she deserves some of the credit for that. I am interested particularly in Amendment 3, because vulnerable people are now much better cared for. It will put more work, pressure and responsibility in the direction of the new body. I begin to wonder whether it will be expected realistically to carry the weight of some of these new, important duties with the financial envelope that we have—we will have time to discuss that afterwards—but the shape and framework that the body now has is a lot better for serving the needs of the most vulnerable and distressed.

I hope that consideration of people with vulnerabilities will also include signposting to the official social security benefits that exist so that they are taken up—universal credit will obviously increase take-up automatically, but a lot of other residual benefits still sit outside universal credit. Signposting under Amendment 3 would add value to having the power in the Bill. I look forward to seeing how this works out. It is a much better provision than was previously the case, and the Minister deserves credit for that.

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

I, too, thank the Minister and noble Lords for making significant progress. Perhaps I may ask for clarification: will care leavers be included in the “vulnerable” group? I apologise to your Lordships for being absent from Report—I was not able to be present—so I ask this question now.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, I add my thanks to the Minister for her hard work and ingenuity in securing this amendment today. It has certainly moved a long way since our first discussion in Committee. She may remember that at the time I raised the issue of a particular care leaver who had a very stressful experience over two years because of the difficulties that we are addressing now. I am really grateful to her, particularly for care leavers who, after all, begin with a difficult start in their families, often have to experience independence very early in life and too often find themselves in financial difficulties. This will be particularly helpful for them. I appreciate the clarity that the Minister gave on the urgency with which the Government are moving forward on this, which was reassuring.

There is one point on which I would like clarification, and the Minister may care to write to me on this. Many care leavers are in difficulty around council tax. Some enlightened local authorities are now deciding not to charge care leavers but many still do so. When care leavers are pursued by their local authority for council tax, they can get into the position of the corporate parent aggressively pursuing their corporate child through the courts. I hope the dispensation will address that particular point.

One further point that the Minister may care to cover in correspondence: I believe that in Scotland the experience has been that six weeks may not be enough of a respite period to build a robust plan to go forward. I hope she might look at what is going on in Scotland and that we may build on that learning, perhaps looking at increasing the length of the respite period in light of the experience there.

I thank the Minister and all those noble Lords, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, who took this forward, as well as the charity StepChange, which has been so helpful in all these matters.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

My Lords, following on from the comments made by the noble Earl about Scotland, I hope the Minister will encourage dialogue with the authorities in Scotland that have some experience of running these schemes. I am not saying the system is perfect but it would appear a bit absurd not to take advantage of the opportunity, through ministerial joint committees and what have you, to learn as much as can be learned and extract information about the experience in Scotland. I hope that might benefit and expedite the formulation of the scheme in due course.

An important point that I would like the Minister to confirm is that the provisions of this new scheme, which I greatly welcome, apply also to public bodies, local authorities and housing associations. If it does not do that then it will not be as effective, so I hope consideration will be given to that question.

If everything that can go right does go right—if I may invite the Minister to be optimistic for a moment—how quickly does she think this could be done? I absolutely understand the commitment that she has made; she has made it clear that she is personally committed to the scheme, and I am sure she will do everything that she can to deliver it. However, we live in uncertain times, and it may be that she gets promoted on to further and better things and other Ministers come in. If that were the case, we might look to the new Minister for Financial Inclusion to continue her work.

By what milestones can we measure progress of implementation of the scheme? It is so easy for these things just to disappear slowly by desuetude and disinterest, and by the throng and press of other matters in the departmental in-tray for such things to slip considerably. Can she assure us on the efforts that will be made to ensure that it stays up to the best possible implementation timetable to get done quickly, and on what sanctions there would be if the single financial guidance body did not keep up to the timetable limits set in the Bill? We would be even more reassured that this is a useful scheme if we had some sense of how quickly it will be accessible to ordinary people in the United Kingdom.

Financial Guidance and Claims Bill [HL]

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope Excerpts

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 31st October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Brookeborough (CB)]

My Lords, a lot of the time when we talk about debt, it would appear that we are talking about people who may be in debt for a particular item or for a short period of time. These are people who are right down there and close to being in debt, and may be able to manage their finances by only a few pounds every week or month. So this is not just a debt problem overall; it is debt for very vulnerable people. If we do not help them and give them a bridging mechanism, we are creating a big social problem—a problem regarding their characters, the way they live, their friends and how they are seen. It is about much more than just how we keep the debt down and how, one day, they get out of it; it is about their social identity. Many of them have not been in debt before, and consider going into debt at all a crime and a slur on their character. When we have the chance, we must create the means to help protect as many of them as possible. Wherever we have a breathing space or gap whereby we can legislate to avoid them going permanently into debt—such as, dare I say it, in universal credit—we must try to do so. I therefore support the amendment.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

My Lords, I shall make just two quick points in support of the speeches that have already been made. I am very much in favour of the amendment but the timing is really important. I say that because universal credit, as we all know, has some introductory rollout problems, such as establishing debts in a way that can sometimes overwhelm new applicants, given the 42-day waiting period. If some magic process could put in a breathing space immediately, that would give succour, support and some respite to families who will almost certainly now face arrears, particularly rent arrears. Therefore, time is of the essence and I hope that the Government will bear that in mind.

I also agree with the point that has just been made about public sector bodies. The Government should perhaps be able to do that anyway by getting people within the public service to be more reasonable about the way they prosecute the recovery of debt.

My second point, which is really important to me, is that the presence of this opportunity in Scotland completely changes the atmosphere in which negotiations can take place. People start acting a lot more rationally and are not driven by fear into doing things and making undertakings which, in their innermost hearts, they know they cannot fulfil. The circumstances are thereby compounded, which makes everybody’s position worse. In Scotland, the ability to just stop the clock, step back and think rationally about the solutions over a longer timeframe transforms the circumstances of families in distress. It is very important that we get this done quickly and take advantage of the experience north of the border, where such an approach has been demonstrated to be worth while and to work.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Buscombe) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this very important debate—indeed in all the debates that we have had on this crucial issue since Second Reading.

As noble Lords will be aware, the Government’s manifesto contains a commitment to deliver a breathing space scheme that would give heavily indebted consumers a period of respite from creditor enforcement action, further interest and charges for up to six weeks. Where appropriate, they would be offered a statutory repayment plan to help them pay back their debts in a sustainable way.

I am grateful, as I said, for the helpful contributions during all our debates from noble Lords, and from the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, in particular, on the important topic of protecting heavily indebted consumers. Noble Lords will have seen, just last week, that the Government have taken their crucial first step towards delivering this manifesto commitment by launching an extensive call for evidence. I might just say here, as noble Lords have asked about public sector debts, that the breathing space call for evidence seeks views on that. We want to ensure that the scheme is designed in the best possible way to support consumers.

The noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, referred to universal credit. It is right that I point out to noble Lords that all those going on to universal credit are entitled to up to 50% in advance payments, and in some cases they can receive it on the same day they sign up. So, there should not be a huge increase in debt because of those early days.

In addition to support from this House, the announcement of the call for evidence has been positively received by a wide cross-section of the debt advice sector. For instance, The Children’s Society has said it is “delighted” with the announcement, the Money Advice Trust agreed this was “good news” and Citizens Advice said:

“It’s good to see the government taking action on problem debt”.


We plan to continue to engage closely with these bodies and other stakeholders over the coming months to develop our policy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, when we debated in Committee an amendment to Clause 14 requiring a more extensive parliamentary process for the dissolution of the SFGB than that set out in the Bill, the Minister promised to reflect on the matter. This she has done and we are grateful for that.

As the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee set out in its first report of Session 2017-19, under the Bill as drafted the Minister does not have to be satisfied as to anything before deciding to abolish the body, does not have to consult, does not have to conduct a formal review and does not have to wait a certain time to see whether the new body is working well before deciding to abolish it. Each of those deficiencies appears to have been taken into account in the government amendments. Amendment 39 enables the super-affirmative process to be applied if either House or a relevant committee of either House so determines, and the process is reflected in the detail of the amendment. This requires that the Secretary of State must have regard to the representations received and any recommendations of either House or of a relevant committee. Effectively this means that Parliament can directly influence the terms of the regulations.

We should note that the provisions of Clause 14 have effect not only to dissolve SFGB but to determine where and to whom its functions are to be transferred.

We can support the amendments and I thank the Minister again for addressing the concerns which have been raised.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

My Lords, I welcome the amendments and congratulate the Minister on bringing them forward. It makes a huge difference if Ministers listen carefully to what is said on the Floor of the House and changes are brought forward as a direct result.

I acknowledge also the important work that the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee does in its service to this House. In its first report it made clear the comparisons that the Minister has alluded to with the Public Bodies Act and the Enterprise Act and the earlier precedents they contained. We should study carefully the work the Committee does because it provides an important service to the House. The Minister has listened carefully and she deserves credit for that.

As a member of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, which assists the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, I welcome these amendments. Both committees enhance the work of the House.

Amendment 34 agreed.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

40: After Clause 17, insert the following new Clause—
“Interim rules restricting charges for claims management services
(1) The Compensation Act 2006 is amended as follows.(2) After section 5 (the regulator) insert—“5A Power and duty of the regulator to make rules restricting charges for claims management services(1) The power of the regulator to make rules includes the power to make rules prohibiting authorised persons from—(a) entering into a specified regulated claims management agreement that provides for the payment by a person of charges which, taken with charges payable under an agreement treated by the rules as being connected with the regulated claims management agreement (if any), are specified charges, and(b) imposing specified charges on a person in connection with the provision of a service which is, or which is provided in connection with, a specified regulated claims management activity.(2) Within two months beginning with the day on which the Financial Guidance and Claims Act 2017 is passed, the regulator must make rules by virtue of subsection (1) in relation to all regulated claims management agreements, and all regulated claims management activities, which concern claims in relation to financial products or services.(3) The rules must be made with a view to securing an appropriate degree of protection against excessive charges for the provision of a service which is, or which is provided in connection with, a regulated claims management activity.(4) The rules may specify charges by reference to charges of a specified class or description, or by reference to charges which exceed, or are capable of exceeding, a specified amount.(5) In relation to an agreement entered into, or charge imposed, in contravention of the rules, the rules may (amongst other things)—(a) provide for the agreement, or obligation to pay the charge, to be unenforceable or unenforceable to a specified extent; (b) provide for the recovery of amounts paid under the agreement or obligation;(c) provide for the payment of compensation for any losses incurred as a result of paying amounts under the agreement or obligation.(6) This section is repealed at the beginning of the day on which section 17 of the Financial Guidance and Claims Act 2017 (power of the FCA to make rules restricting charges for claims management services) is implemented by the FCA.””

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

My Lords, I will move Amendment 40 on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, who regrets that she has had to leave the Chamber to attend to an unexpected and unforeseen family problem. I can dispatch the amendment without taking up too much time. It is part of a process. As colleagues will see, it would insert a new clause to bring in interim rules restricting charges for claims management services.

The Government, through the FCA, are promoting public interest in completing applications for PPI claims. There is a public interest in that, and a lot of advertising encouraging people to do so, but as we heard in Committee, many people are being caught up in this and caused significant detriment as a result of the mis-selling of PPI. They are incurring fees of 30% or sometimes more when using a claims management company, when they could achieve the same thing by themselves directly from lenders without charge. Citizens Advice has advised that almost half of the problems and complaints relating to claims management concern disproportionate fees.

I have been involved only at the margins, but it should be acknowledged that the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, has been working on this issue intensively with the Minister and her team. The noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, has spent a lot of time trying to make sense of it. This is an interim but necessary measure. The amendment is part of a process and its purpose is to seek assurance that something could be brought forward at Third Reading, and that that is being worked on.

A lot of intensive work is being done, which is welcome, but during the gestation of the ideas currently in play, the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, and I would like serious consideration to be given to the quantum of the cap we are talking about. One of the figures being considered is approximately 20% plus VAT. We can consider that in more detail at Third Reading, but it sounds quite high to the noble Baroness and me. There may be a technical reason why it has to be set at that level, but our plea in moving the amendment is for careful consideration to be given to the level at which the cap is set.

It has been suggested that if a company charges more than the cap allows under the amendment, that would not be a breach of statutory duty, but the excess only would be recoverable by the claimant. The mechanism is not clear and is difficult to understand. If the Minister can explain why an excess charge would not be a breach of statutory duty, I, as a provincial solicitor many years ago, would go to bed this evening in a happier place.

The process being undertaken by the ministerial team is acknowledged and welcome. On our side, we have had help from Lloyds Bank and Citizens Advice, but I hope the Minister can give us some welcome assurance on the process going in to Third Reading. This is a probing amendment, and anything he can say in that regard would be extremely helpful. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My Lords, I join the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, for moving the amendment in the absence of the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher. We are sorry that she had to leave for family reasons. I again pay tribute to the work she has put into this amendment. She has pursued it with diligence.

The amendment seeks to put in place a fee cap from two months after Royal Assent until the FCA implements its own cap. We debated this in Committee. I am grateful to noble Lords who contributed to this debate for highlighting it again.

Clause 17 already makes great strides to secure fair and proportionate prices for consumers by giving the FCA a duty to cap fees charged for financial services claims. However, as a number of noble Lords pointed out in Committee, the implementation of a new regulatory regime and an effective, robust cap will necessarily take some time, during which consumers could continue to be charged disproportionate fees. In that debate, noble Lords expressed concerns that the FCA’s PPI claims deadline may have passed by the time its fee cap is in place. That point was made by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. We already know that 90% of financial services claims relate to PPI and therefore we want to ensure that consumers are protected against excessive fees for PPI claims as soon as possible. That is why, as the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, anticipated with commendable foresight, the Government intend to table an amendment at Third Reading to introduce an interim fee cap in respect of PPI claims management services.

The amendment will set a fee cap at 20%, excluding VAT, of the claim value and will be enforced by relevant regulators on commencement two months after the Bill receives Royal Assent. The Claims Management Regulation Unit consulted on a 15% cap. The data that it collected on the costs to CMCs of processing claims and market analysis of profit margins resulted in proposals to introduce a 20% excluding VAT cap on claims management services. The amendment supports the Government’s aim of ensuring that the claims management sector works in the interests of consumers by protecting them from excessive fees.

The amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, and moved by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, would go some way towards ensuring that consumers are protected during this interim period. However, the government amendment will go further in two key areas. First, it will have a wider application than the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness. The interim fee cap will apply to both CMCs and legal services providers that carry out claims management services in relation to PPI claims, to be enforced by the relevant regulators.

Secondly, it will include in primary legislation a prohibition against charging more than 20% of the claim value for PPI claims, which will enable the regulators to implement the cap quickly. As I said a moment ago, this level was reached using the helpful and comprehensive responses to the Ministry of Justice’s consultation on proposals to introduce a fee-capping regime for CMCs handling financial services claims.

On the procedure for claiming any excesses imposed over the cap, anyone in breach of the interim fee cap will be subject to regulatory enforcement, which could include fines. Furthermore, a contract to receive or pay a sum in excess of the fee cap would be unenforceable, thereby ensuring that firms cannot profit from their malpractice and that consumers are entitled to recover excessive fees.

My noble friend Lady Altmann raised a question about compensation. As we will revert to this issue at Third Reading, perhaps we could deal with it then.

I make it clear that the interim cap is intended to be a temporary measure and, as such, will apply only until the FCA has implemented its new rules under Clause 17. It will also apply only to PPI claims, whereas the FCA’s cap will apply to all claims relating to financial products and services. We remain of the view that the FCA, as the incoming regulator, will be well placed to develop its own cap, or caps, based on an assessment of the market. Given the Government’s undertaking to table an amendment on this matter at Third Reading, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

My Lords, I am very happy with that undertaking. I hope that the dialogue can continue and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 40 withdrawn.

Financial Guidance and Claims Bill [HL]

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope Excerpts

Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Tuesday 24th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

My Lords, I will be quick, as the House obviously wants to make progress on this. As a former business manager, I can see where all this is going and can anticipate what the Minister is going to say. The position was warmed up rather nicely by the noble Lord, Lord Faulks. He is an honest man, whose opinions always have to be weighed in the balance, but anybody who seriously suggests that there is going to be legislative time in the future for some other vehicle lives on a different political planet.

The noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, made an important speech, and I agreed with my noble friend Lady Kramer when she said a lot of colleagues have done a lot of serious work on this. I was first alerted to the extent of the evidence while serving as a colleague of the noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, on the Financial Exclusion Committee. There is a sense of rage and anger about this, which has been going on for far too long. The evidence is there, and as an institution we have a chance of changing it. I for one think it is inconceivable that any Minister in the position that the noble Baroness finds herself can convince this House—certainly me—that this is something we can do another day. We will be deep into European withdrawal for the next two years, and the DWP will be lucky if it gets any Bills during that time—I assert that based on my experience over many years. We have to deal with this now, and I support these amendments. I hope they will be pressed to a Division and passed.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, for his comprehensive introduction of this important package of amendments, which we support in its entirety. As we have heard, fundamentally it would enable a ban on cold calling across the piece, together with related reporting functions to the FCA on consumer detriment. We should congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, on his drafting, which would enable us to proceed now with a ban. We know the detriment that cold calling can bring, not only by CMCs but in the pensions arena, and the harm that can produce.

A number of noble Lords touched on this. The noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, talked about vulnerability in the digital age and how damaging that can be. The noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, spoke about the opportunity to do something today to help deal with a process that causes real mental harm. We agree with that. The noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, talked about the scams around holiday sickness and the impact of the advance of technology if we do not get stuck into this sooner rather than later—the need to deal with the “omnipresent social menace”, as he put it. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, on his challenge to the noble Lord, Lord Faulks. If it is not in this piece of legislation, when will it happen?

The FCA recently published its Financial Lives Survey 2017, which identified that in the last 12 months, 23% of adults, or 11.6 million, received an unsolicited approach, although of course that does not mean that they would all have necessarily suffered detriment from that. Banning cold calling is not only an opportunity to deal with a nuisance, it is an effective way of disrupting the business models of the scammers and fraudsters. Perhaps this would be an opportunity to get to those higher-end activities to which the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, referred.

I know the Minister is supportive of a ban on “every type” of call, because she told us so in Committee, but the strenuous efforts of Ministers have apparently failed to deliver on that aspiration. Notwithstanding the asserted complexity that the legislation might entail, we were told that if it was in scope, it would be in the Bill. It seems that it is in scope. That hurdle has been overcome, so what is the problem? We accept that there may be some complexity in drafting, but surely nothing beyond the wit of parliamentary counsel.

We urge the Government to make progress. Every day that goes by without the ban holds the risk that someone somewhere will be defrauded of their savings, their life turned upside down. We may hear from the Government, as we have before, that there are already restrictions on cold calling and unsolicited direct marketing, but this has not prevented consumer detriment continuing. On several occasions during our debates the Minister has told us she has disconnected her landline. If there is such confidence in the current framework, why on earth would that be necessary?

This is a hugely important issue, which is why we have common cause around the Chamber from pretty much all Benches. This is an opportunity to do something now. If we do not do it now, when will it be? I urge the whole House to support the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

My Lords, following that speech from the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, I support these amendments. I want to reinforce something that my noble friend Lady Kramer said earlier. Language is very important in this context and the amendment addresses that perfectly. We have to be careful how we use language in terms of social security and social protection, above and beyond some of the specialisms familiar to some of the noble Lords who made powerful speeches on this amendment.

I want to add something to the definition of people in vulnerable circumstances. A couple of weeks ago, I was interested to read some remarks from Mr Frank Field, who as noble Lords will know is the chair of the departmental Select Committee covering the DWP. He said something that I recognised, which is new to me and him, about what we as a country are facing immediately and over the next two or three years, with the conjunction of interest rates, a freeze in benefits and other things, together with the administration of the ultimate safety net that now resides in some but not all local authorities after the abolition some years back of the Social Fund and community care grants. Frank Field characterised that as families falling out of stable situations into destitution, particularly in relation to three very normal things. Their electricity is being cut off; they are being evicted, because their rent is not being kept up, and there is the dimension of universal credit implementation in relation to that in the short term; and there is food poverty. In these three circumstances we are seeing for the first time in this country, certainly in my experience, these things coming together and ordinary families suddenly finding themselves falling out of financial security and stability.

We have nothing. The previous set of social security provisions always had a residual safety net. I am concerned now that that is absent, particularly in certain local authority areas. I hope that we can find some way to capture this, if not by this amendment then with something that captures the sense behind it. There is a timing issue here. Over the next two or three years, we need the Bill to pick up people who have faced the conjunction of circumstances that Frank Field described and embrace them. If it is not done by this amendment, it should be done by something else.

[Viscount Brookeborough]

My Lords, could I just look at one other aspect of vulnerability? It is looked on as being a disability of some kind, but vulnerability is also down to isolation, where one might live and being on the periphery. Look at banking in particular—the most basic place that somebody goes or would like to go for financial advice or help at first if they live out in the country. Look at the number of banks that are closing branches left, right and centre. Of course it is business, but we have to realise what is really going on there. They say that they have consulted and we had various banks, without naming them, which came in front of our committee and said, “We consulted before we closed”. But we did not find one instance where a bank had changed its mind because it had consulted. It is as simple as that. We have to look at it on those terms.

Actually, we had Nationwide. I must forgive it for a minute, because I rather liked it. Nationwide said, “We are opening some branches”—and it is being novel about it. It could be opening a branch with one man, who will sit in what could be an office or a caravan. He could be visiting a village or whatever. When the customer says to somebody he probably knows, “Bill, listen. What can you do? I need a loan or a mortgage”, he says, “Hold on”, and presses a button. Up comes Peter from the loans office who says, “Just sit down and we’ll have a chat about this”. He says, “Would you like some coffee?” and the guy says, “Yes please”—because he likes getting anything free that he can. He presses a button and the coffee arrives from next door. The whole thing is very homely. He says, “When I have this loan, what about a mortgage?”. He says, “I’ll bring in Charles on that and the three of us can talk about how it will work”.

Ultimately that is no different from what always used to happen—you went into your bank to the man you knew and he then took you into an office to see somebody else—but this is novel thinking. Banks will always worry about their business, but they should not necessarily be closing branches and we have to encourage them to be novel. The internet is there and the banks must watch out. I heard a comment the other day or saw it in the Financial Times. It was something about banks becoming vulnerable, because people might not keep their money there. The sooner the banks catch on to what is going on and come up with novel ideas, the sooner the vulnerable will not be as vulnerable as they appear at the moment.

I live on the border with the Republic, and we will talk about Brexit another time. The banks have literally all come back from the border. Societies in those villages are increasingly vulnerable. They are beginning to be scared. They have to drive 20 miles, so they had better have something good to talk to the bank about. They had better know exactly what they are doing before they go. A lot of them may be older people without the internet. Something like the Nationwide’s idea is the way we should be going. We must treat vulnerability not only as those who may be medically vulnerable but as vulnerable members of our society.

Work Capability Assessment

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope Excerpts

Monday 9th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, I hear what noble Lords are saying in relation to piloting. As I have said, our officials are working hard to consider the next steps. I will take that suggestion back to them. They are thinking about all the future plans and taking into account the concerns of all the 6,000 people who responded to the consultation. Of course, if there is a wish to have more pilots, I am convinced that my department will look at that.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

My Lords, if the Minister is bringing forward plans, that is extremely welcome, but before she makes any positive changes will she look at the Ministry of Justice employment tribunal statistics that were published last month? They show a rate of successful overturn on appeal in ESA cases of 68%. Further, the mean period for the disposal of a case is now 20 weeks, which is three weeks longer than last year. These are important things that need to be remedied in any plans she brings forward, so a review is fundamentally and urgently needed now.

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, we are committed to ensuring that people have the best support possible. That is why we have allocated £330 million for new voluntary employment support for people with limited capability for work over four years, starting with this year. The current system fails to provide the right incentives and support to help disabled people and those with health conditions toward and into work. Those people deserve better.

Financial Guidance and Claims Bill [HL]

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope Excerpts

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 6th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, I well understand the objectives of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, and I have the greatest respect for what he is trying to achieve and for other noble Lords who have supported these amendments. However, we need to be careful not to make the legislation too complicated. I am not quite sure that I really understand the difference. The noble Lord is trying to include the need to provide information on financial capability. He is talking about financial inclusion and financial exclusion. The Bill already includes the need to have regard to financial capability. I am not quite sure that financial capability is the best way to describe what is meant. I think it is intended to mean financial literacy or financial awareness. Financial capability implies having financial assets. I therefore find it a little confusing. We have financial capability in the Bill anyway, which I do not think is perfect, and are now talking about adding financial inclusion and financial exclusion. The noble Lord’s definition of financial exclusion in Amendment 39 includes reluctance to seek appropriate advice. I do not fully understand why, if somebody is reluctant to seek the advice or guidance that sensible people tell him he should seek, that means he should be regarded as being financially excluded.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

My Lords, I am happy to follow the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard. His point is understandable but it is more easily understood in the context of the ad hoc committee’s report on financial exclusion. We have had some response to that, already adverted to by the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, and it is a great leap forward to have a Minister to whom we can now address some of these issues. But as the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, was saying, what is missing is an overall strategy into which the differences he was trying to analyse can fit more comfortably. Absent a strategy, the Committee is perfectly entitled to try to make what it can of this important Bill—which is an important part, although not the whole, of the strategy—in order to expand the envelope as much as we can. These amendments do that. The speeches we have heard so far from colleagues support that, and I support these amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Kramer]

I will say just a sentence or two, because the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, has put the case so well. I hope that the Government will take it away to consider it. One of the underlying flaws in the Bill is that it takes a Victorian view that there are people who have debts, who are struggling to deal with them, and others who have investments and need to work out how to maximise them. In this day and age, they are the same people dealing with, from their perspective, a single pot of money which they have in various places or have various issues with. If this is not cleared up in the Bill, the noble Baroness is exactly right to say that we undermine the benefits that the service can bring. It needs to be brought into the modern era. It is good to have a nice legal definition— I should like the MiFID definition, which is in the letter; that makes a great deal of sense—but, as the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, put so clearly, that does not deal with the perspective of the consumer: where do they stand, what do they need and what on earth is this service providing?

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

I did not intend to contribute to this debate, but it is a very important issue. The note, which I also received at 3.46 pm this afternoon via the Whips Office despatch, misses the important point about auto-enrolment. That is causing the most concern. The noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, clearly explained how that changes the circumstances. The Government need to continue to work on this. I am not an expert, but, speaking for myself, I would want to test this in the Division Lobby if they cannot come up with a more rational response to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, and the arguments of the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann.

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this debate, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for introducing Amendments 33, 34, 36 and 37. Straightaway, I apologise that the all-Peers note arrived at only 3.40-something this afternoon.

Pensions

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope Excerpts

Wednesday 19th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement and for advanced sight of it. We have been waiting keenly to see how and when Ministers would finally respond to the Cridland report but, frankly, the response is disappointing. Only yesterday Sir Michael Marmot described how a century-long rise in life expectancy was,

“pretty close to having ground to a halt”.

John Cridland himself acknowledged in his report that inequality in pension outcomes remains, with certain groups in particular at risk of lower incomes in retirement. There are significant variations in life expectancy across socioeconomic groups.

Yet in this Statement, the Government have confirmed their intention to accept the headline recommendation of the Cridland report: that the state pension age should rise to 68 over a two-year period between 2037 and 2039. Astonishingly, there is nothing whatever in the Statement to acknowledge the issue of inequality in income and life expectancy. There is nothing in it about the huge variations in life expectancy in our country, or about how the Government will address improvements in morbidity—people’s general health—not keeping pace with people’s life expectancy. There is nothing about the wide variations in retirement income.

I would like to ask the Minister some questions. The Conservative Party election manifesto promised that it would,

“ensure that the state pension age reflects increases in life expectancy, while protecting each generation fairly”.

How does the Minister justify that promise, given this Statement? The Statement says that the Government will carry out a further review before legislating to increase the state pension age to 68, in order to consider the latest life expectancy projections and evaluate the effects of rises in state pension age already under way. Does that mean that Ministers may not enact the rise in state pension age to 68 after all? Is this a policy or just an aspiration?

What is the Government’s position now on the triple lock? Cridland recommended that it be abandoned; Labour pledged to keep it; the Tory manifesto pledged to ditch it from 2020 and move to a double lock, but the DUP rather likes it. Can the Minister clarify the Government’s position on the future of the triple lock? What is her response to the Cridland recommendation that those with caring responsibilities and ill health should be able to access pension credit a year earlier than the state pension age?

Labour has pledged early access to pension credit as a way to protect the WASPI group of women, who found themselves suddenly facing an increased state pension age without enough notice to enable them to plan. I hear that the Prime Minister was looking for ideas. Would she perhaps like to adopt this one? What is the Government’s plan to communicate with people who will be affected by the change in the state pension age? What lessons have they learned from the debacle of their previous repeated accelerations of changes in the state pension age, resulting in so many WASPI women struggling in their final years of working life? What assurances can they give the House that this will not happen again?

The Minister referred to plans for the single financial guidance body and its support for consumers, but is not the state pension excluded from its operations, subject to amendments we will be considering later?

What is the Government’s stance on the other Cridland recommendations? Will they commit to not raising the state pension age by more than one year in any 10-year period? Do they agree that conditionality in universal credit should be adjusted for those approaching state pension age to ease the transition into retirement? Do they accept the idea of statutory carers’ leave along the lines of SSP? What about the proposal that those over state pension age should be able to part draw down the pension, deferring the rest?

This Statement raises more questions than it answers. We can only hope that the report, when we have had a chance to study it in detail, will elucidate some areas. Labour want a different approach to this pensions crisis, which means more work for millions and absolute chaos for 50s-born women who have already had their state pension age quietly pushed back. In our manifesto, we committed to leaving the state pension age at 66 while we undertake a review into healthy life expectancy, arduous work and the potential for a flexible state pension age which recognises years of work and contribution, as many other countries currently do. This would be an evidence-based approach that looks to understand the varied experiences of working people across the country and to respond to their needs.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for robustly repeating the Statement. My eye was drawn to the last phrase, which she read with a flourish: “and this is what the Government are doing today”. What are the Government going to do next week on some of these matters, particularly in relation to the triple lock? I support the questions addressed to the Minister by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. Most importantly—this was also addressed by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie—if the Government are to secure dignity and security for retirement, at their next review they will need to look not just at average income data but at latter-day morbidity data as well.

The one thing that is missing from the Government’s Statement and response is the fact that the totality of the policy is missing. The Government need to move in a way that releases and uses the £74 billion that we will save by this move in the public policy field between now and 2045-46 to mitigate, as Cridland suggests, some of the transitional protections and to make it easier for those who are reaching retirement but who are less able to work—the disabled, carers and people of that kind. I hope the Minister will be able to say that by the next review these transitional and support questions will be addressed using some of the savings that we are obviously making from this important policy announcement this afternoon.

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their response to the Statement. We believe it is really important that we have a seriously responsible approach to this. The Opposition’s wish to fix the state pension age at 66, even though they legislated to increase the pension age to 68, demonstrates a failure to appreciate the situation. Their approach would add £250 billion to national debt spending in 2040, which is equal to £20 billion a year borne by future generations. It is hugely important that we take these steps now, act responsibly and with care, and focus very much on intergenerational fairness.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked about life expectancy. We will of course look at all life expectancy data very carefully, particularly following the report by Sir Michael Marmot. The current ONS projections are that life expectancy will continue to increase, but there is uncertainty around the rate of change in future life expectancy, which is why the state pension age review mechanism ensures regular six-yearly reviews. Long-term trends of increasing life expectancy mean we need to balance the needs of pensioners with the working-age generations who fund the pensions and health and care needs of an ageing population. As for the possibility that life expectancy may be falling, the latest ONS statistics show that 65 year-olds in the UK are expected to live over half of their remaining life in good health: 11.1 years for women and 10.3 for men. Healthy life expectancy has also been increasing over recent decades and, at age 65, has been relatively stable as a proportion of total life expectancy since 2000.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, spoke about regional unfairness. John Cridland, in his report, concluded that there are no practical or workable ways to factor in variations in life expectancy, and there is no evidence of regional options being any fairer or more targeted at disadvantaged groups. Allowing early access to the state pension on a reduced basis would risk leaving people with an inadequate pension. Also, disadvantaged groups should be assisted, through working age, through the benefits system rather than through changes to the state pension age.

As for the triple lock, that will remain in place for the remainder of this Parliament. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, also asked about whether we are going to go ahead with this or not. We have said that the Government have decided that the rise in state pension age to 68 should take place between 2037 and 2039; however we will carry out a further review before legislating, to enable consideration of the latest life expectancy projections and to allow us to evaluate the current rises in state pension age.

In relation to carers, the new statutory entitlement to carer’s leave is a BEIS-led policy. The Government are reviewing long-term carers’ leave entitlements and will set out our plans in due course. Carers will not be disadvantaged by increases to state pension age. As society ages, and care needs increase, it is important that carers are able to combine caring with paid employment or to return to paid employment when their caring duties allow. We are working with employers nationwide to encourage the adoption of carer-friendly employment policies. Under universal credit, carers are provided with more flexible support, because their claims can remain open even when they move into work. The Government’s Fuller Working Lives strategy, published in February 2017, sets out proposals to help carers combine work and care. The Government remain committed to the provision of a safety net to support pensioners who, for whatever reason, do not have a full state pension.

We are very much focused on improving communications. The intention is to provide people with adequate notice to give them clarity and certainty over their state pension. People can now use the online Check your State Pension service to get a forecast of their state pension, find out when they will reach their state pension age, how they may be able to improve their state pension and view their national insurance contribution record. Indeed, since its launch in February 2016, over 4.5 million state pension forecasts have been viewed online up to the end of June 2017. But, for any future changes, we will seek to make the position clear at least 10 years in advance. We recognise the need to provide transparency for future pensioners to facilitate effective retirement planning. The Department for Work and Pensions is looking at how best to take advantage of emerging technologies in the coming years, to build greater engagement in financial planning for later life.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, also referred to the state pension. We will be discussing that very issue later this afternoon when we are in Committee on the single Financial Guidance and Claims Bill. The Opposition Front Bench also asked whether we are supporting John Cridland’s proposal to increase the state pension age once per decade, which means the next increase would not occur until 2047-49.

We do not support John Cridland’s proposal to commit to only one year’s rise every 10 years, as this would limit the Government’s ability to respond to future changes in life expectancy and would go too far in removing the link between when we change state pension age and the proportion of life people can expect to spend in receipt of state pension. However, we recognise the need for appropriately spaced rises. In the past, the UK has been slow to take account fully of life expectancy increases. This has led to changes to state pension age in three Acts of Parliament in the past 10 years, as noble Lords will know.

Thanks to the action we have now taken, however, the UK state pension is now on a firmer footing. The state pension age review framework should maintain that position through its greater responsiveness to changing life expectancy projections. This will ensure a stable state pension system in the future. That is our focus: a sustainable pension so that future generations can enjoy state pensions.

Using the 32% proportion of adult life spent over state pension age as our longer-term benchmark balances the need to maintain an affordable state pension against the need to give people clarity about what they can expect from the state: security in retirement and confidence in the value of private pension savings. I hope this in large part covers the questions raised by the noble Lords opposite.

Financial Guidance and Claims Bill [HL]

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 19th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Brookeborough (CB)]

My Lords, I support this amendment. I was on the ad hoc Select Committee on Financial Exclusion, which produced the report Tackling Financial Exclusion: A Country that Works for Everyone. We spent a whole Session on it and we covered all these points. I suggest that those who have not looked at the report should do so, not only because I was on the committee but because it is quite concise. We went to places like Toynbee Hall and we saw people who were affected.

If I ask you for your advice, you can just tell me to do this and that, which is the point the noble Baroness is making. Advice may not be helpful, whereas counselling is a two-way thing. To invite people to counselling is not to invite them to take your advice—it is to invite them to discuss what they are willing to find out, and to give them options. It is not speaking to them, it is discussing and talking things through with them.

The word “debt”, which has been mentioned, is not always helpful. Debt is almost considered a crime, but it is not. In fact, very often government institutions and regulations cause people to go into debt—so in many cases the debt is not even their own fault. We must remember that the Bill is about people, the way they think and are approached, and we want to encourage them to take this counselling. We do not want to ask them why they are here and then say, “Here is my advice”. It should be about invitation and discussion. This is a very simple amendment and I support the change of words.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough. I too served on the ad hoc committee and I was going to make exactly the same point. I was very struck by the visits the committee made to front-line staff; they are always impressive in terms of their commitment. They give of their time, mostly as volunteers, in various organisations and circumstances. There are always difficulties to contend with in terms of managing and assisting households to stick together—it is as serious as that. I support this amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann. I trust her judgment; she has a lot of experience from a consumer point of view that this Committee would be ill advised not to consider seriously.

What is not to like about counselling? I do not see what the cost is. If there is a government communications programme to underline that, and the organisation is told that the tone and tactics it uses should be in that direction—if that is made crystal clear—it will be a serious service to assist the delivery of this important public function. Contrarywise, as the noble Baroness has said, if we do not take this opportunity, there is no way of rowing back. Should this Bill go on to the statute book with this inherent confusion, the damage will be done. This point is clear and has been well explained by the noble Baroness. It would not be safe for the Committee to pass by this amendment without careful consideration. I support it.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Lord Bishop of Newcastle]

My Lords, I, too, rise to speak in support of Amendment 41. I declare an interest as a vice-president of the Children’s Society.

In the area covered by the Diocese of Newcastle, the Children’s Society data tell me that there are more than 42, 000 children living in poverty and that almost 18,000 children from almost 16,000 families are living with the blight of problem debt. Last year, I read a report in the New York Times on a large, randomised trial involving 21,000 people on the efficacy of various aid mechanisms to bring people out of poverty and debt. What emerged surprised the researchers. It emerged that one key mechanism is more effective than any other, and that mechanism is hope. Families that are stressed and trapped in poverty and debt can feel real hopelessness that becomes entirely self-fulfilling. Give people a reason to hope, and it can make an extraordinary and real difference.

A breathing space is one of the things that can offer such a hope—a hope that there is time to find a way through. I am sure the Minister is aware of the long-running campaign of the Children’s Society and StepChange to achieve a breathing space scheme for those in problem debt. I understand that, prior to the election, the Government indicated their support for the principle of such a scheme, and I would be very grateful if the Minister could update us now as to the current situation and about any further progress on this.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

My Lords, I do not want to delay this debate, which has been a very important one. This is the most important issue for me in the first 16 clauses. I share the frustration that has been reflected by powerful speeches from colleagues including my noble friend on the Front Bench, who made an excellent speech about the significance of the proposal in this group of amendments, particularly the breathing space provisions.

One of the reasons why this is so important is that debt, I think, is going to get worse, which is probably a realistic assumption to make, for the next four or five years. I have spent my entire life working on the benefits, social security and social protection side of state provision. It is increasingly untenable that the calculation of means testing takes no account whatever of levels of benefit. People might well be applying for universal credit now, and being allowed work allowances and tapers that are appropriate to a clean sheet of paper, but no question is ever asked of decision-makers about to what extent the household debt behind the application affects the family circumstances—which affects child poverty, as the right reverend the Prelate Bishop of Newcastle just pointed out to some effect. This is the most important part of the Bill for me.

This also puzzles me because I come from Scotland and absolutely endorse what the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said. For 10 years now, this system has been tried and tested there, and there is no doubt about the fact that it works. I know there are rumours that people in Scotland are particularly stingy and difficult when it comes to how they spend their money—particularly on the west coast of Scotland late on a Friday night—but it seems self-evident to me that consultations with jurisdictions in other parts of the country are part of what we should be doing in a new devolved United Kingdom. I would have expected the department to go across the border to make urgent and active inquiries into exactly what ingredients in Scotland have made this successful.

Indeed, you can argue it the other way round: it is not a good thing to have this level of disparity across the United Kingdom when the body we are setting up is UK-wide. The best practice that Scotland has demonstrated is being ignored—almost wilfully, if I can put it as strongly as that—through the position the Government are taking. Both the cold calling and the breathing space provisions are popular things to do. The Government would not be attacked by anybody I would think of as reasonable on either of these two important subjects. I do not understand why the Government are not being a bit more responsive to the unanswerable claims made in powerful speeches earlier this afternoon. I think the Government will lose in this House if they do not make some amendments, and solutions have been offered.

I know Governments do not like tinkering with Long Titles. I was a Whip for long enough to learn that, and it is not something I would want to start doing a lot myself. But there is a case to be made for my noble friend’s point about the small change needed to shoehorn these two important subjects into consideration so that they can be addressed more directly—and, if I may say so, in a more adult way than we are doing at the moment by trying to look round corners and use smoke and mirrors—to achieve an objective that we all think is sensible.

My plea to the Minister, who is very good at responding to these things and considering them further, is that she carefully consider particularly the breathing space proposal. It will dog the rest of the Bill’s proceedings if the Government and the department do not offer a compromise that enables one or both of these important issues to be addressed more directly.

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, I start by thanking all noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, the noble Lords, Lord Sharkey and Lord Stevenson, and the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, for their positive contributions so far on the passage of the Bill, particularly in relation to this important debate. Noble Lords have raised important issues such as indebtedness, the introduction of a breathing space scheme and protecting individuals from pensions and debt-management cold calling. I welcome the opportunity to talk about these significant issues.

Clause 2 sets out the functions and objectives of the single financial guidance body. An important function of the new body is to work with others in the financial services industry, the devolved authorities, and the public and voluntary sectors, to support and co-ordinate the development of a national strategy to improve financial capability, the ability of people to manage debt and the provision of financial education to children and young people. I say that up front, because it is important when we are thinking about how this body will evolve that the strategic function means that the body will work with others rather than in isolation. That is why we refer to its “strategic” function.

The amendments tabled by noble Lords seek to specify in statute that the body, in discharging this function, will need to focus on reviewing the case for a breathing space. This would include considering the impact of not having such a scheme, reviewing the insolvency schemes available and considering the impact of not banning pensions and debt-management cold calling.

I will first talk about the breathing space issue, which probably all noble Lords who have spoken in the debate have raised. The amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, seeks to give the single financial guidance body the ability to specifically advocate for the introduction of a breathing space scheme. The amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, and the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, seeks to give the single financial guidance body a specific requirement in respect of its strategic function, which is to review the case for the introduction of a statutory breathing space scheme.

The amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, seeks to give the single financial guidance body a specific requirement in respect of its strategic function. It would require the body annually to assess the extent to which consumer detriment is caused by, or contributed to by, pensions and debt-management cold calling and the lack of a moratorium for debt recovery, also known as a breathing space. Both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord noted during Second Reading that the level of overindebtedness among the UK population is of increasing concern—a concern I share with all noble Lords this evening.

As I said at Second Reading, the Government recognise that the cost of living can sometimes become too great. Problem debt can be hard to escape and can compound family breakdown, worklessness, stress and mental health issues, along with other issues such as those raised particularly eloquently by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel. I understand that the breathing space is of particular interest to noble Lords and that some expressed disappointment that a breathing space scheme was not provided for in the Bill. But I would like to reassure noble Lords that the Government are committed to tackling problem debt. The Government’s manifesto, as noble Lords have referenced this evening, proposed the introduction of a statutory breathing space scheme and statutory debt repayment plan. This is an important and complex issue. It requires thorough preparation and consultation on details, such as who could be eligible, which debts could be in scope and how someone could enter into a breathing space.