Sentencing Council Guidelines

Lord Keen of Elie Excerpts

Thursday 3rd April 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie (Con)]

My Lords, two days ago, magistrates and judges across England and Wales were, in effect, blindsided. At midday, they were informed that sentencing guidelines that they thought had come into force had in fact been suspended. The courts would have been sentencing offenders under guidelines that the Lord Chancellor herself now admits are fundamentally flawed. These are guidelines which, she has stated, would inflict a “two-tier” system of justice, undermining fairness and consistency in our courts.

In addition, buried in the very email sent to judges and magistrates, the Sentencing Council somewhat audaciously declared that

“we remain of the view that the guidelines are necessary and appropriate”.

While the Lord Chancellor advised in the other place on Tuesday:

“I believe that we must reverse them”.—[Official Report, Commons, 1/4/25; col. 183.]


So the Lord Chancellor says one thing and the Sentencing Council continues to say another.

This situation was entirely preventable, had the Lord Chancellor put party politics aside weeks ago and backed, rather than blocked, the Bill that my right honourable friend Robert Jenrick introduced in the other place. This Bill would have restored accountability and given the Lord Chancellor the power to govern justice policy. We may welcome the belated introduction of the Lord Chancellor’s Sentencing Council Bill, although I express regret that it had to come to this. However, we should be clear that the proposed Bill does not address the core of the problem, which concerns the status and accountability of the Sentencing Council.

There have already been concerns about other aspects of the Sentencing Council guidelines. Public reference has been made to the guidelines on immigration offences, although I understand that they are debated and indeed disputed. Further concerns have been expressed about guidelines on the provision of bail, where there is particular reference to the priority of ethnic minorities and transgender offenders. That also is a potentially discriminating practice that should not be maintained in our criminal justice system.

What is now required is a calm and considered review of the entire situation, rather than just a knee-jerk reaction Bill that addresses a symptom rather than a cause. I therefore invite the Minister, on behalf of the Government, to commit to a comprehensive review of all Sentencing Council and Ministry of Justice guidance on sentencing policy and bail policy, which should properly rest with the Government in the form of the Ministry of Justice and not with a wholly unaccountable Sentencing Council—however high a regard we have for those who sit in that council.

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

My Lords, the Lord Chancellor maintains that this Statement raises issues of principle, that it is about policy being for Parliament and not for judges, and that the Sentencing Council has breached the principle of equality before the law. We hear complaints from the Conservatives in particular—the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, is no exception to this, and it is unsurprising that I take a different view from him—of judicial overreach and of a two-tier justice system. However, all in this House are committed to equality before the law.

The background to the new proposed guidelines is the wealth of evidence, almost entirely undisputed, that ethnic minority defendants are more likely to be sent to prison than white defendants. Yesterday I mentioned the Lammy review, but there is so much more. This inequality of outcomes must be addressed; it is the very opposite of equality before the law.

Pre-sentence reports are a vital tool that enable judges to take into account the circumstances of an offender as well as the nature of the offence for which he is before the courts. The Lord Chancellor appears to accept that. The only other significant assistance a sentencing judge receives on an offender’s background and circumstances is the speech in mitigation from defence counsel. Although speeches in mitigation are powerful tools, they are made by defence counsel on the instructions of the defendant, so they are neither independently prepared nor impartial. They also cannot generally be independently verified, as pre-sentence reports can.

So we need these reports, and they have long been intended to be the norm not an optional add-on, yet resources for these reports have, in effect, been rationed. The Probation Service was hopelessly mishandled by the last Government, and one result is that there is not enough money to fund the number of pre-sentence reports we need. The noble Lord, Lord Timpson, yesterday gave the figures: the number of pre-sentence reports is down by 44% between 2013 and 2023.

The letter from the chairman of the Sentencing Council to the Lord Chancellor on 10 March explained the very thorough process that had led to these new guidelines, in the context of the statutory duty imposed by Parliament for the Sentencing Council to give guidelines to judges on sentencing. Part of the reason behind establishing the Sentencing Council was precisely to encourage consistency in sentencing—that is, equal treatment before the law—yet now we have the Government resorting to hastily drawn and unhelpful emergency legislation that tries to address a complex issue in simplistic terms. The operative section would provide that

“sentencing guidelines about pre-sentence reports may not include provision framed by reference to different personal characteristics of an offender”.

A subsection goes on to say that the “personal characteristics” may include—not must include—

“in particular … race … religion or belief … cultural background”.

The cohorts identified by the Sentencing Council as normally calling for a PSR include being a young adult, female, pregnant, or postnatal. Are those not personal circumstances and are they not relevant?

The solution to this is not emergency legislation. The emergency has now passed because the Sentencing Council has paused introduction of the guidelines. This emergency Bill has not yet had a Second Reading, and I therefore invite the Government to withdraw it now and end this unnecessary row. It is unseemly and widely regarded as such by the public. I suggest that the solution lies in rational and moderate discussion between the Sentencing Council, the Lady Chief Justice and the Government, to which Ministers in this House from the Ministry of Justice would have an important contribution to make.

The first aim would be to reach a solution that ensures that pre-sentence reports are properly funded so that they become the norm once again in all cases where a substantial prison sentence is not inevitable. The second would be that we recognise these reports play an important part in addressing and reducing the inequality of outcomes for ethnic minority defendants—this must be a major priority of the Government. The third would be that we all respect and ultimately achieve genuine equality before the law.

Sentencing Council Guidelines

Lord Keen of Elie Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd April 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

Nothing in the Bill prevents judges requesting a pre-sentence report for pregnant women—it is normal practice for judges to request pre-sentence reports in cases involving pregnant women—nor does the Bill affect Court of Appeal case law, which states that a pre-sentence report is desirable in those cases. I believe that pre-sentence reports are very important, but they have declined in number considerably over the last 10 years. From 2013 to 2023, they declined by 44%. That is why we are putting extra resources into probation, recruiting more probation officers so that they have the time to produce high-quality pre-sentence reports.

[Lord Keen of Elie (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister—perhaps the Minister of State for pouring oil on troubled waters—referred to the dialogue between his department and the Sentencing Council. But, as he knows, after the report became public on 5 March, that dialogue was far from helpful. The Sentencing Council pushed back hard on the suggestion from the Secretary of State for Justice that it had created a two-tier sentencing system. Therein lay the fundamental problem, which is that when the previous Labour Government created the Sentencing Council, they created a body that was not answerable to the judges or the Government. Does the Minister consider that that model is now compromised, as evidenced by recent events? Will his department address the issue of how sentencing guidance should be provided in future?

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

The noble and learned Lord is right to say that the Sentencing Council plays an important role in ensuring transparency and consistency in sentencing guidelines but I will not engage in the personal issues that he refers to. The Lord Chancellor is committed to reviewing the role of the Sentencing Council but it will take time to consider this carefully, so it is not appropriate for the Bill. For me, what is important is that we are proud of our judiciary and its independence, and the fact that, quite rightly, it is respected the world over.

Crown Court Criminal Case Backlog

Lord Keen of Elie Excerpts

Thursday 20th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie (Con)]

My Lords, I begin by extending my thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Longfield, for her maiden speech and for the insight she gave on the issue of children in the justice system, an area where I know she will continue to make very important contributions to the proceedings of this House. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, for securing this debate on such an urgent and important issue.

I shall not seek to repeat all the damning statistics that we have heard already. In a sense, they speak for themselves. For far too many victims, justice now feels out of touch. For far too many accused, the resolution of a criminal complaint feels out of reach. Victims of serious crimes such as rape, murder and robbery are told that their cases will not be heard until 2027—or, indeed, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington, pointed out, in some instances, 2028. Half of victims have had their Crown Court trials adjourned or rescheduled. This is not just a matter of inconvenience or inefficiency; it is a failure of society to deliver the justice that victims deserve and expect, and it is a failure of our society to give accused their right to resolution of a criminal complaint within a reasonable and rational time.

Listening to these contributions, I note that some would adopt the view that there is somehow an absolute right to trial by jury. I would not accept that proposition. Almost 90% of criminal complaints are disposed of without the requirement for a jury. It may be regarded as some sort of fundamental right, but it is not absolute, and we should not regard it as something that is inviolate.

We face a situation in which the proposal for modest change or careful and moderate improvements is simply not going to be enough. The present Lady Chief Justice has pointed out that the backlog continues to increase, despite the best efforts of the Ministry of Justice, the courts and the legal profession to see it go otherwise. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Burnett of Maldon, her predecessor as Lord Chief Justice, again pointed to the situation we are in as being, in essence, in need of “radical change”. Radical change is the only thing that is going to improve matters in the present situation.

We heard from a number of noble Lords about the difficulty of maintaining the appropriate number of lawyers at the criminal Bar. Indeed, it is clear that, over many years now, recruitment to the criminal Bar has been rendered far more difficult by reason of the very limited legal aid made available to those who practise in that critical and important area. The noble Baroness, Lady Levitt, also made the point that there is an impact not only on the practising Bar but on the judiciary themselves, who in many instances feel overburdened by the situation that has been allowed to develop in the last few years.

We have to look at how we can approach this. I would respectfully adopt the view already expressed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Burnett, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hazarika, and touched on by the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, that we should look at some sort of intermediary court structure. There is clearly room to deal with the either-way cases that, I understand, represent some 40% of the existing backlog in the Crown Court.

There are a number of ways in which it could be done. The adoption of something similar to the Diplock courts, with a Crown Court judge sitting with two magistrates, for example, would be one way forward. Whether that should deal with only specified offences or whether it should deal with, for example, a sentencing power of up to two years, or, I might venture, up to five years, is a matter for debate and cannot be resolved at this time, but there is clearly a need to address that issue and to potentially introduce such an intermediary court.

With respect, I do not accept the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, that this would give rise to a greater number of appeals. As I understand it, that was not the experience with the Diplock courts in Northern Ireland but again, that issue bears examination. It will also be necessary to take into account the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Meston, on the impact of non-jury trials on certain parts of our society. I appreciate the importance of that, but it can be examined going forward.

The reality is that we cannot continue as we do at the present time. We cannot continue with a backlog in the Crown Court that is simply increasing. It is out of control. There are some interim measures that can be taken. The noble Lord, Lord Stevens, referred to the Nightingale courts. I understand that about 60 were established, of which only about 16 are in use at present. The question then arises of whether we have the judiciary to man those additional courts. Do we have the practitioners at the criminal Bar who will be available to prosecute and defend in those additional courts? There are so many factors coming together here that create not just one problem but a chemistry of problems, which cannot be resolved by one or two simple steps. It will take a leap of imagination by the Minister and his department to address this in a capable, credible and effective way.

My noble friend Lady Porter of Fulwood and the noble Lord, Lord Lemos, made an important point. There is an inextricable link between the present, increasing backlog and the immediate problem that we face with our prison population. I understand from the Library statistics that something like 20% of our prison places are taken up by prisoners on remand. Of those, a very large proportion represent what would be regarded as either-way cases. If we can relieve the backlog, one immediate advantage may be that we take some of the pressure off our present prison estate.

We must look at this in the round. It is not just a case of saying that we need more judges. It is not just a case of saying that we need more to pay lawyers more—although I always think that is a very good idea. It is not a case of saying that we need more courtrooms, or of saying that we can just introduce an intermediate court. We have to bring all these features together. Having regard to that, we are immediately faced with the issue of resources.

Can I make this request of the Minister? Will he ensure that he passes the Hansard report of this debate to his colleagues in His Majesty’s Treasury?

Sentencing Council Guidelines

Lord Keen of Elie Excerpts

Wednesday 19th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie (Con)]

My Lords, the Secretary of State for Justice appears to have implied, perhaps somewhat implausibly, that she and her department were not aware that the new Sentencing Council guidelines would introduce a two-tier justice system until their final publication two weeks ago. She in fact has representatives on the Sentencing Council. To be fair, the Secretary of State moved rapidly to address the grave problem that this presented, but simply encountered a more fundamental problem stemming from the way in which the previous Labour Government established the Sentencing Council. It is not directly answerable to any Minister. We are now told that the Secretary of State and the council are “talking”. However, discussing the height of the drop as you approach the precipice is no substitute for a plan of action. What is the plan and, if these disastrous guidelines come into force on 1 April as intended, who will resign? Will it be the Secretary of State for Justice or the chair of the Sentencing Council?

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Timpson) (Lab)]

The Sentencing Council is independent of Parliament and government. The council decides on its own priorities and workplan for producing guidelines. The Lord Chancellor was clear about her discontent with the guidance when it was published on 5 March, which was the first time that she and other Ministers had heard about it. It is her view, and mine, that there should not be differential treatment before the law. The Lord Chancellor met with the chair of the Sentencing Council last Thursday and had a constructive discussion. The Lord Chancellor will be setting out her position in writing to the Sentencing Council and it has agreed to reply before 1 April. We will not get ahead of ourselves beyond that.

Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation

Lord Keen of Elie Excerpts

Thursday 6th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I absolutely recognise all the points my noble friend made in her question. We do not believe that this issue is slipping down the legislative agenda. We want to see how the 2023 Act will work in practice. That will be happening imminently. The new rules will become active later this spring. The point my noble friend makes about intimidation through this procedure is absolutely right. Women, journalists and women journalists are all victims of this, and it is something we will certainly keep an eagle eye on.

[Lord Keen of Elie (Con)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that we should not confuse the issues surrounding non-disclosure agreements, which can be pernicious in themselves, with the issue of strategic lawsuits against public participation? Does he also agree that because the public profile of SLAPPs has so increased recently, regulators have taken a far more positive approach to dealing with the matter, as recent evidence from the Solicitors Regulation Authority and the Bar Standards Board illustrates? It might be better to see how the civil rules implement the perception against SLAPPs and allow those regulators to discharge their functions with regard to the legal profession.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank the noble and learned Lord for that question, and I agree with the points he made. It is indeed true that non-disclosure agreements can be pernicious in themselves, and they are not to be confused with SLAPPs. The new regulations will come into place imminently, and we should see how they go before considering future legislation.

Prenuptial Agreements

Lord Keen of Elie Excerpts

Thursday 27th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, for securing this debate. I begin with the advantage, shared with the Minister, of never having practised in the area of family law; accordingly, we can both bring a fresh eye to this long-running saga.

I find myself almost entirely in agreement with the observations made by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, particularly on the need to bring forward suitable statutory provision for prenuptial contracts—and I use that word advisedly. I also agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Shackleton, who followed the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, on her point about the scope of a prenuptial agreement and its inability to forbid or exclude child maintenance.

I entirely agree with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord St John of Bletso, that, clearly, children and their maintenance should not be part of such prenuptial agreements. There should be separate provision for the maintenance of children, when it is required, and that is reflected in, for example, the law of Scotland—which I will come on to address in a different context—where there is express provision for a periodic allowance for children up to a certain age that cannot be excluded by any prenuptial agreement.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Southwell pointed out that of course marriage is not just an economic transaction. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Farmer, made clear, those entering into matrimony need to take responsibility for the financial consequences of marriage. Accordingly, there is no reason why we should not look at the economic aspects of that relationship and the way in which it is going to be addressed.

While supporting prenuptial agreements on a statutory footing, the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, expressed the view that there should be some means of addressing changes in circumstances. I cannot find myself in agreement with that. It seems to me that we would be merely exchanging one set of discretions for another—a point the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, touched upon. At present, the court has very wide discretion. I am not sure that replacing that with a narrower discretion is the appropriate way forward.

The noble Lord, Lord Meston, has the advantage on me with regard to his scope of family law. But I cannot find myself agreeing with his inclination towards the status quo. It does seem to me that the time has come for action. Indeed, the time for action has passed. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, on the matter of awareness, but I will not seek to elaborate on the issue of chattels. I leave that to others to consider. I also agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, that, if we are to put in place a statutory basis for prenuptial agreements, we need to have certain safeguards.

There is no compelling logic to a person leaving a marriage wealthier than when they entered it. I do not agree with the reference made by the noble Lord, Lord Meston, to some expectation upon divorce. I do not see why that should be taken into account. A prenuptial agreement is neither unique nor, in our present social position, to be regarded as unconscionable. It is an example of what is known to the law as a contract. A contract made between two competent and consenting persons should be enforced in the absence of fraud, coercion or misrepresentation. On the point made by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, if there is material non-disclosure, that should be grounds for voiding any such agreement.

Adults entering a relationship should be free to decide for themselves the consequences and terms on which they may terminate that relationship. The same logic applies here as would apply to other forms of business or professional relationship, albeit acknowledging —as the right reverend Prelate pointed out—that marriage is not just an economic transaction. Parties should be entitled to agree that their existing wealth should never form part of what is termed “matrimonial property”. Parties anticipating their respective contributions to the common wealth during a marriage should be entitled to agree how their matrimonial property should be dealt with in the event of divorce.

At present, the law of England and Wales is a muddle of uncertainty, fed by discretion. Since 2010, we have been told that a prenuptial agreement may be enforced if regarded as fair—but, fair, we are told, at the time it is being implemented: that is, at the time of divorce, taking into account many changes in circumstances. That is part of the problem, because anyone who has entered into a prenuptial agreement, with which they are unhappy many years later, will simply say, “Well, it was fair at the time, but I don’t think it’s fair now”—thus, recourse to the courts, to litigation and to legal costs. That temptation to challenge will always be there and ultimately will only benefit the lawyers.

If I leased a car for five years, I could ask whether at the time of the lease the contract was fair. But to apply that test five years later, when the vehicle has lost its bloom, has become less reliable and is inclined to break down—rather like some marriages—seems inappropriate, in my submission. In the law of Scotland, a prenuptial agreement is treated as what it is: a contract. There is a statutory test of fairness and reasonableness, but it is applied to the contract at the time it was entered into, which is both logical and consistent with legal theory.

Section 16 of the Family Law (Scotland) Act states that the court may set aside or vary such an agreement if it was not fair and reasonable at the time it was entered into. A modest statutory amendment could bring England and Wales into line with the more developed and logical jurisprudence of Scotland. I therefore invite the Minister to indicate whether, and indeed when, the Government will address this issue, which has been outstanding now for more than 14 years.

Prison Maintenance: Insourcing

Lord Keen of Elie Excerpts

Thursday 23rd January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. The key is to deliver value for money. If we had intervened in the process, it would have cost more. Ultimately, we are not opposed to considering a public sector option, and we will keep it under review. The question I keep asking myself and officials is whether we are getting value for money, and rehabilitative, safe and decent prisons?

[Lord Keen of Elie (Con)]

My Lords, Rule 31 of the Prison Rules 1999 provided that all convicted prisoners should be required to do useful work for up to 10 hours a day, and indeed it is a disciplinary offence for a prisoner to refuse to work. Yet we are constantly being told of prisoners spending 20 hours a day idle in their cells or cellblocks. Is this a failure of management or a failure of resources? Will the Government undertake to review such initiatives as the New Futures Network, which was established to allow businesses to set up workspaces within prisons?

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

It is vital that, when people are in prison, they are in purposeful activity and not in their cells, so we are putting a lot of effort into getting more people out of their cells for longer. We have still got an awful lot more to do. We have too many prisons for the workshop and educational spaces that we have. The New Futures Network, with which I have been involved for many years, has been very successful in increasing the amount of people who get jobs on release from prison. Three years ago, 14% of people who left prison had a job after six months, and it is now over 30%.

Asylum Seekers: Legal Aid

Lord Keen of Elie Excerpts

Thursday 23rd January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for the question; I certainly agree with the second part of it. Regarding the first part, the answer is very similar to the one I gave to the right reverend Prelate. The Government are funding the Law Society to help build up the base of lawyers and other legal professionals who can provide the advice to which the noble Lord has referred and to get rid of the “advice deserts”. I take his point about people not always giving their advice face to face; nevertheless, there has been a big change in remote advice for people seeking to make applications which we think has been beneficial. Nevertheless, there is the underlying issue of getting more people to work within the sector.

[Lord Keen of Elie (Con)]

My Lords, we know that civil legal aid is now available in very limited circumstances and the disposable income threshold is little more than £3,000, so very few of our fellow citizens could ever qualify. An asylum seeker who has paid thousands of pounds to a people smuggler can reasonably argue upon his arrival at Dover that he has no disposable income and qualifies for legal aid, but the result is that we are now spending tens of millions of pounds on asylum cases from the Legal Aid Fund. Is there not a better and more efficient means of dealing with claims and the advice required by those seeking asylum in this country, including the suggestion of a government-supported and centralised legal representation unit for asylum cases, rather than this dispersed disposal of legal aid into what has been an advisory desert?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I was not aware of the suggestion of a centralised legal aid representation facility. If that is still being actively considered, I will write and confirm that to the noble and learned Lord. Nevertheless, he makes a reasonable point about building up the resources to be able to process these cases effectively, efficiently, fairly and humanely.

One other factor is that Duncan Lewis, the well-renowned law firm, has written that it believes that the new rates, which are very likely to be agreed, will help it to do more work in this area.

Courts: Backlogs

Lord Keen of Elie Excerpts

Wednesday 15th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, the two factors to which the noble Lord referred are real factors—Covid and the action by barristers. However, there is an underlying problem of increasing cases coming to Crown Court, which overlays the other problems to which the noble Lord referred. The Government have increased the number of allocated sitting days to 108,500, the highest level in almost a decade, and increased the sentencing powers of magistrates’ courts from six months to 12 months. Nevertheless, with those two increases, there needs to be further radical reform to address the problem to which the noble Lord referred.

[Lord Keen of Elie (Con)]

My Lords, as the Minister noted, much of the Crown Court backlog can be traced back to the effects of the Covid epidemic. Indeed, I acknowledge that there has been an increase in the number of sitting days for the Crown Court. However, the Lady Chief Justice has indicated that there are a further 4,500 sitting days available. We are in a situation in which many major Crown Court centres are sitting at only half capacity, with many of the courts simply empty. There are courts and judges available, but I am repeatedly advised that there are not suitable defence counsel available, many having been driven out of criminal practice due to the absence of a sustainable fee income. A recent increase in legal aid fees has been granted to solicitors in criminal practice. Is it not time for this Government to address a similar increase for barristers in criminal practice?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble and learned Lord is right to draw attention to the 12% increase in fees for criminal aid solicitors. That is a substantial amount of money. The Government are exploring options to incentivise the early resolution of cases, which includes the remuneration of everyone in the criminal justice sector. The Government are informed by the 2021 report of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Bellamy, and considerations are ongoing on this matter.

Drones: High-security Prisons

Lord Keen of Elie Excerpts

Wednesday 15th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie (Con)]

My Lords, the Chief Inspector of Prisons has just delivered a devastating report on conditions at His Majesty’s Prison Long Lartin and His Majesty’s Prison Manchester. At HMP Manchester, almost 40% of prisoners have failed standard drug tests. The Chief Inspector of Prisons has reported that criminal gangs now, in effect, control the airspace above this high-security prison using drones. A number of years ago, the use of drones was emerging, and they could be controlled by physical defences such as nets and blocked windows. Unfortunately, even these basic defences were neglected at HMP Manchester. However, there have been recent and rapid developments in drone technology. First-person viewing drones, GPS-controlled drones and others are all capable of delivering not only drugs but weapons and even explosives. Will the Minister address not only the existing security failures at HMP Manchester but the possible introduction of electronic countermeasures at high-security prisons such as HMP Manchester?

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Timpson) (Lab)]

The noble and learned Lord is completely right that drones pose a major and serious threat to all our prisons. I have been visiting Manchester prison for over 20 years, and I went there just before Christmas, in the light of the problems that it has. I saw for myself the issues that staff are dealing with, with 49% of the prisoners arriving in the prison being addicted to drugs. I cannot share the counter-drone tactics as that would play into the hands of sophisticated and serious organised criminals. I can assure the noble and learned Lord that we are currently getting on with a number of fixes, but the biggest fix is ensuring there is no market for drugs and weapons in the first place, and that people in prison are there to get on with their sentence, get educated and do purposeful activity, so that when they are out, they stay out.