Pension Schemes Bill

Debate between Lord Katz and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Committee stage
Wednesday 14th January 2026 Grand Committee

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, for tabling these amendments and, as the noble Lord, Lord Fuller, said, for giving us this short but sweet opportunity to discuss the management of the schemes.

I join the noble Lord, Lord Fuller, in using this opportunity to pay tribute to all those who are involved in the work of running the LGPS. He is absolutely right that it is a thankless and hard task; this is an opportunity for me to put on record that I am in complete agreement with him on that matter, although I say gently, as we are on the last group for today, that his definition of “sexy” differs from mine somewhat—but each to their own.

I recognise that the intention behind these amendments is to ensure the robust management of funds and assets in the LGPS. The Government share this aim and are taking steps to ensure that the reforms are implemented soundly. I am happy to confirm to the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, that “management”, as established in Clause 8, is not a narrow administrative concept but a comprehensive responsibility encompassing governance, oversight and compliance. The Government are clear that administering authorities and asset pool companies must regard adherence to all applicable laws and regulatory requirements as a core, non-negotiable element of their management duties.

This expectation reflects the principle that robust compliance is fundamental to safeguarding assets, maintaining public confidence and ensuring accountability throughout the system. In particular, under the provisions of this Bill, all investment management activity beyond setting high-level investment strategy will be delegated to the asset pool company, which will be required to seek authorisation from the Financial Conduct Authority. FCA authorisation and supervision will provide vital assurance to members and employers that very large pools of capital will be managed properly, including ensuring that robust procedures for identifying and managing risk are in place. The Government have written to the asset pools to set out the new requirements in Clause 1 and are engaging closely with pool company leaders to monitor progress on meeting them in good time. In addition, subject to the passage of the Bill, the Secretary of State intends to make regulations and issue guidance on asset pooling and fund governance, which will set out the expectations on LGPS funds and pools.

On strengthening fund governance, administering authorities will continue to be responsible for holding pools to account on their performance, including on how risks are managed. To strengthen governance and accountability further, regulations will require administering authorities to appoint the new positions of “senior officer” and “independent person”, subject to the outcome of the consultation. Senior officers will take the leading role in representing their funds in the governance of the asset pool in which they participate, and independent persons will offer professional expertise to support pensions committees on investment strategy, governance and administration—including holding the pool to account.

Administering authorities will be better able to manage risk and ensure compliance as a result of the new powers relating to independent governance reviews set out in Clause 5. Independent governance reviews will ensure that administering authorities review their governance and their compliance with the legislation, supported by independent scrutiny, to provide assurance to members and employers. In response to the question from the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, on whether we are attempting to constrain the concept of management, the answer is that we are not. The list provided is an inclusive one, not an exhaustive one. As I have said, compliance with laws and regulations and effective risk management are assumed in the Bill, as they are in existing LGPS legislation, with the latter also provided in the requirement for asset pools to be regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority.

The provisions in this Bill are already adequate to ensure that asset pool companies and administering authorities are compliant with the law and have adequate controls in place with regard to the identification and management of risks. Given that, as well as my explanations, I hope that I have satisfied the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, and provided the assurances that he sought. I respectfully ask him to withdraw his amendment.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I am grateful to the Minister for his response and for answering the questions that I posed—I think there were only one or two, but, again, I will check Hansard for my questions and his responses.

The Committee will be pleased to know that I have little to add to what I said earlier, but I would like to reiterate a broader point. The more clarity we can place in the Bill and the more we can place clearly on the record, the greater the certainty we will provide to trustees, funds and employers about changes to a landscape that profoundly shapes how they operate and discharge their responsibilities.

In this very short debate, I was particularly grateful for the points made by my noble friend Lord Fuller, backed up by my noble friend Lady Noakes. I appreciated my noble friend Lord Fuller’s focus, which it is important for the Committee to put, on what pension fund administrators actually have to do, and he was quite right to highlight the breadth and detail required in undertaking the role.

That leads me nicely on to answer a question raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Thurso, on Amendment 22. I will need to check, but my understanding is that when it comes to the role of a pension fund administrator, management includes handling risks. The question is how we define “handling”. My understanding is that it includes how risks are identified, assessed and kept under review, but it is quite possible that there is somebody above that level who takes full responsibility. Otherwise, my understanding is that it involves handling both the risk register and how risk is assessed and decided on in providing a return to investors, but I will investigate and come back to the noble Viscount.

In concluding, although today we might be debating definitions and interpretation, I have no doubt that those affected by this legislation are following our proceedings closely and are keen for as much clarity as possible from the Government on definitions, duties and responsibilities. For that reason, I would very much welcome any further clarification the Minister is able to give the Committee throughout our subsequent proceedings on the questions we raise on these matters. That would provide reassurance not only to this Committee but to those beyond it who are looking to these proceedings for guidance and certainty. I finish by saying that that really is true, in that we have been in touch with a number of third parties and those in the industry, and many of the comments made today and on Monday absolutely reflect their issues and concerns. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Pension Schemes Bill

Debate between Lord Katz and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Committee stage
Monday 12th January 2026 Grand Committee

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

That is very helpful. When I write to the noble Baroness, I will certainly make sure that we address the point around independent advisers. I appreciate the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, asking for that kind of clarification, so my written remarks will address that point.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his responses; I am also grateful for the debate we have had on this group of amendments.

I am grateful to all noble Lords beyond me who have asked further questions, particularly in the latter stage of this short debate. It is fair to say—I am saying this against myself—that, with so many questions having been directed originally to the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, but applying to both Ministers, it would be extremely helpful to have a full letter with the answers. This has been an important debate; some clear issues have been spoken to, and answers are required.

I will start by picking up some points made by the noble Lord, Lord Davies. He gave the impression—indeed, he said this; I cannot remember his expression—that I was being negative about the Local Government Pension Scheme. I reiterate the point made by my noble friend Lord Fuller: the Local Government Pension Scheme is efficient and is very much a British success story. In addition to that, my noble friend Lord Fuller set out—very eloquently, I thought—the concerns around both the complexities in the Bill and the unintended consequences. There are two clear sides to this. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Davies, on the success aspect; I want to be quite clear that he knows my position on this.

What unites the amendments in this group is not opposition to reform, nor hostility to pooling local investment or good governance. Rather, it is a concern about how far the Bill reaches into areas that have traditionally, and rightly, been the responsibility of trustees exercising fiduciary judgment. The noble Lord, Lord Katz, said that intervention by government is very much a last resort. I accept what he says but, as the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, asked—very tellingly—are the Government best placed to direct? Further, she made an interesting point on whether the £400 billion should be part of a sovereign wealth fund. That just shows that it is worth having this sort of debate on this important area of the Bill.

Across these clauses, the Bill moves from setting a framework to conferring powers of direction, compulsion and prescription; direction over participation in asset pools; compulsion towards a particular end state without a clear transition; duties to co-operate with strategic authorities without defined boundaries; and regulation-making powers that reach into advisory pathways and the content of investment strategies themselves. I feel from the debate that each of these elements raises the same underlying question: how will these powers be exercised in a way that is genuinely compatible with fiduciary duty, rather than merely being stated to be so?

With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment, but I also acknowledge that there is much work to be done in this area.

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[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, for her two amendments in this group, for the remarkably brief discussion that has been prompted and for the opportunity that they provided for her and us to probe the Minister on these important issues. Noble Lords will be pleased to hear that I will not rehearse the arguments at length, as I touched on them in some detail earlier. However, I wish briefly to reiterate what I regard as a central and non-negotiable principle: the Local Government Pension Scheme exists first and foremost as a fiduciary vehicle. Scheme managers are under a clear legal duty to act in the best financial interests of members and beneficiaries, and that duty must remain paramount.

Against that background, Amendment 13 raises a particularly important question, one that has been put to us repeatedly by industry representatives from a wide range of backgrounds; namely, what type of assets do the Government have in mind in which funds should be directed to invest? I think this is the essential argument of the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann. Is the intention to focus on infrastructure, debt servicing or supporting new towns and similar developments? The noble Baroness also raised the point of what percentage should be invested in UK assets. As she pointed out, perhaps 25% should be invested in UK growth assets, and, therefore, what is the definition of growth? Lots of questions arise from the noble Baroness’s amendments.

I recognise, and I think the noble Baroness alluded to this, that we will return to this issue in greater detail when we come to consider the reserve power, but like the noble Baroness, I wish to flag this matter at this stage as it has been a theme this afternoon on this first day of Committee and a live and pressing question not only for us but, I reiterate, for the many third-party stakeholders with whom we have engaged.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, for tabling these amendments. I cannot speak on behalf of the whole Committee, but I would say that it is most people’s intention to encourage greater investment in UK assets. Growth is certainly the number one mission of this Government. If you did not realise that, you have probably been hiding under a rock these past few months and years.

These amendments would direct LGPS funds to make investments in certain UK asset classes. Supporting UK growth by making investments in such assets, in tandem with seeking appropriate returns, is a valuable function of the scheme and the noble Baroness is right to be interested in this important topic. As I have mentioned, the LGPS already invests around 30% of assets in the UK. Greater consolidation will build on this success story, as the pools will have greater capacity and expertise to invest domestically.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I was due to give a very short speech. It is still short, but it has got slightly longer in terms of the content of this debate. I am particularly grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted and Lady Altmann, for tabling Amendment 10, which we welcome and which I understand to be a sensible and proportionate safeguarding measure. I want to go a bit further because there were two particularly powerful speeches, in particular that from the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles.

As we read it, the amendment seeks to ensure that investment strategies cannot be used to favour particular investment vehicles over comparable or competing alternatives. In doing so, it would help to guard against strategies becoming a back-door means of directing capital, rather than serving their proper purpose as high-level statements of investment policy.

That distinction matters. Investment strategies should guide objectives, risk appetite and approach and not hardwire specific vehicles or delivery mechanisms into statute or regulation. Preventing the embedding of such preferences also reduces the risk of political or regulatory pressure or—I will use the word—interference, being reflected in investment strategy documents and helps to preserve trustee independence and proper decision-making. Although it is a serious subject, the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, gave us a succinct, well-argued speech with her bucket wrapper analogy. She gave a hard-hitting speech with some important questions which I hope the Minister will be able to answer.

One issue that has been made clear today, which has arisen in a number of debates, and was encapsulated in this short debate, is the opaqueness of “government direction”. I was very taken by the equally hard-hitting speech from my noble friend Lord Fuller. The confusion—by the way, the C is for confusion, just to add that in—is over the responsibility with the grey areas, notably in respect to the understandings, or not, from the Mansion House Accord and those who were the signatories.

One question to ask is whether those signatories now realise what they have got themselves into, or what their understanding was then and what it is now. I ask that as an open question, particularly in relation to the inclusion or exclusion of different types of investment. The noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, focused particularly on open-ended or close-ended. There is a lot of emphasis here. Most unusually, I was in total agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Davies. I am not sure that that has happened with me in the past.

To conclude, we therefore welcome the intent of Amendment 10. It would be very helpful if the Minister could indicate whether—and if so, how—the Bill as currently drafted already guards against this risk. It is a crucial question and relates to all the questions that have been asked. What assurances can be given that investment strategies will not be used to prescribe or favour particular investment vehicles in practice?

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted and Lady Altmann, for this amendment. I agree with them that funds in the LGPS should not be specifying preferences between similar investment vehicles in their investment strategies. I fear that the rest of my response may well disappoint the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, and—though perhaps not to such a great extent—the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann. I say in passing to the Committee that it is always good to hear consensus breaking out, even if it rather gets to the horseshoe theory of politics when it is my noble friend Lord Davies and the noble Lord, Lord Fuller. But let us try to end today’s Committee session on a positive note.

I will now go into the detail. Under our reforms, decisions on implementation of strategies, including selection of appropriate vehicles and managers, will be made by the LGPS pools, which will have the capacity and expertise to deliver the benefits of scale that we have discussed. It is the Government’s view that the draft regulations are already clear in that respect. This will be supported by guidance, setting out that investment manager selection is solely the responsibility of the pool. LGPS pools will make the decision on whether to invest through external managers and which managers to use, and there is nothing whatever to prevent them using investment trusts should they consider it beneficial.

This is where the space for disappointment potentially arises. I am aware of the concerns expressed in relation to the treatment of listed investment funds, notably investment companies and trusts, under the reserve asset allocation powers, which are relevant to DC pension schemes. That was set out very powerfully by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles. The Committee will have the chance to debate these concerns when we reach Clause 40 and discuss Chapter 3, which deals with asset allocation for DC schemes.

To get to the heart of it, the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, asked about the impact on the LGPS. To give reassurance, we are not excluding closed-ended investment funds from the LGPS. I can be absolutely clear that that is the case. We are not excluding them, and neither will local authorities be directed to exclude them. I hope that provides clarity as we discuss the LGPS elements of the Bill.

Having said that, we have had comments around investment and asset types, particularly from my noble friend Lord Davies, as well as others, on this group of amendments. We will take what has been said and consider it in time for the debate on this issue when we get to it in greater detail. In anticipation of that day—which we are all looking forward to, particularly at two minutes to Committee rising—I ask the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, to withdraw her amendment.

Jobs Market

Debate between Lord Katz and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Wednesday 23rd July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

My Lords, I appreciate what the noble Lord says, but employment in the UK is at a record high—more than 34 million in March to May 2025. The number of jobs in the economy is at a record high; there is a record number of women in employment; and the proportion of 16 to 24 year-old NEETs has fallen in this quarter and, indeed, in the whole year. We are fixing the damage that the party opposite did to our economy, and we intend to continue that journey.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, feedback from the latest quarterly ONS vacancy survey for April to June suggests that some firms may not be recruiting new workers or replacing workers who have left, and growth decreased in 14 out of the 18 industry sectors. It is alarming that the largest decrease in vacancies was in the construction sector—31.9%, falling by 14,000 on the quarter. The Minister talks about growth, but when is it going to start, and when is housebuilding going to start in earnest? The 1.5 million houses to be built by 2029 looks like a distant dream.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

The noble Viscount will be aware that in March, the Government announced the new Construction Skills Mission Board, which has already met. It will help to ensure that employers are able to work collaboratively to secure the workforce they need to meet future demand, and to build the houses we so desperately need. Our department is working closely with MHCLG and across government to support the delivery of the Government’s commitment to build 1.5 million homes this Parliament. I should add that we are introducing foundational apprenticeships, which will be underpinned by an employer incentive payment to contribute to the extra cost of supporting someone at the beginning of their career. So, whether it is young people going into the workforce or into construction, or the delivery of the housing we need, we have a plan and we are working to it.