Pension Schemes Bill Debate
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Viscount Younger of Leckie
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(1 day, 9 hours ago)
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“Purpose of the Act(1) The purpose of this Act is to—(a) deliver higher and more sustainable returns for pension savers;(b) address fragmentation across the pensions sector;(c) improve transparency and comparability in value for money;(d) enable clearer and fairer communication with members;(e) support greater consistency across pension provision;(f) support innovative and flexible approaches to saving;(g) provide employers with greater clarity to support their employees’ pension provision;(h) enable responsible and innovative use of pension scheme surplus;(i) improve understanding of pension liabilities and costs for local authorities;(j) strengthen actuarial transparency and routes to challenge contribution rates in the LGPS.(2) The Secretary of State, and any other persons taking actions under the provisions of this Act, must have regard to the purpose specified in subsection (1).”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment sets out the overarching purposes of the Act, including improving returns for pension savers, addressing fragmentation, strengthening value for money and transparency, supporting innovation and flexibility in pension provision, and improving outcomes for members, employers, and local authorities.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My Lords, it is a privilege to open today’s debate and to begin what I am sure will be five engaging and constructive days of scrutiny on this Bill in Committee. The proposed new purpose clause, in my name and those of my noble friend Lady Stedman-Scott and the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, is not an attempt to rehearse the arguments advanced at Second Reading. Rather, it is intended to address a specific issue arising from the way in which the Bill has been framed and from the legislative approach that the Government have chosen to adopt.
The debate I seek to initiate is a principled one about legislative clarity and certainty, particularly in the context of what is, by any reasonable definition, a framework Bill. We believe that the Bill, as currently drafted, is light on detail and relies heavily on delegated powers. This has inevitably left your Lordships debating intentions, aspirations and hypothetical outcomes, rather than the Government’s settled policy. In those circumstances, is it not all the more important that Parliament is clear on the face of the legislation about what it actually intends to achieve?
The purpose clause amendment therefore intends to establish an overarching statement of intent, setting out the objectives against which the Bill and the regulations made under it should be understood and scrutinised. Where detailed provision is deferred to secondary legislation, such a statement provides Parliament, regulators and stakeholders with a clear point of reference. Without it, how are we to assess whether the powers being taken are exercised consistently with the will of Parliament, rather than merely within the scope of ministerial discretion?
More broadly, the amendment invites the House to reflect on whether Parliament is being asked to confer wide-ranging powers without sufficient clarity as to how they are intended to be used. At what point does flexibility begin to shade into uncertainty? How can proper legislative certainty be maintained when substantive policy choices are deferred, potentially amended repeatedly and then removed from direct parliamentary scrutiny? If there were an alternative procedural route that allowed the House to engage meaningfully with these questions, we would of course be willing to consider it. However, in the absence of such a mechanism, is it not reasonable to seek to debate these matters through a proposed new purpose clause, which would allow the House to test the Government’s intent within the normal amending stages of the Bill?
This concern is particularly acute in relation to value for money. Much of what this legislation seeks to achieve will ultimately stand or fall on the effectiveness of the value-for-money framework. Yet the provisions before us are thin and largely skeletal, despite the central role that the framework is expected to play. How can Parliament properly assess the merits of this approach when so much turns on detail that has yet to be set out?
I say at the outset that we are supportive of the value-for-money framework in principle, but its success will depend almost entirely on the detail of its design, the consistency of its application across schemes and the robustness of its enforcement. Without greater clarity on these points, how are trustees, regulators and members to understand the standards against which they will be judged?
That leads me to a wider question about the long-term purpose of the Bill. How do the Government envisage the pensions landscape to look like in 10, 15 or even 20 years’ time? Is the objective consolidation, greater scale, improved outcomes for savers or some combination of all three? How will we know whether this legislation has succeeded in delivering that vision?
We wish to engage not only with the immediate legislative mechanisms but with the broader strategic direction that underpins them. We fully accept that legislation must allow Ministers a degree of flexibility to respond to changing circumstances, but flexibility without a clear, articulated destination risks leaving Parliament and the industry uncertain about the direction of travel. Is it unreasonable to ask for the House to be told not only what powers are being taken but to what end they are intended to be used? It is in that spirit that this purpose clause has been tabled and I very much look forward to the debate that I hope it will provoke.
I wish to return briefly to the question of mandation, which, although I have not directly mentioned it, is an underlying issue in the Bill. It illustrates precisely why questions of purpose, process and limitation matter so greatly in the context of a framework Bill of this kind. We will of course turn to this in greater detail later in Committee but, as we are discussing the purpose of the Bill in this clause, it would be remiss of me not to mention it here at the outset as one of the most contentious provisions in the Bill—as we heard, broadly around the House, at Second Reading.
As drafted, the Bill establishes a broad enabling framework but leaves a great deal of substantive policy to be determined later through regulation. That approach inevitably creates uncertainty. It also places a heightened responsibility on Parliament to ensure that any powers taken are clearly bounded, carefully justified and firmly anchored to a stated purpose. In that context, we do not consider there to be a compelling case that asset allocation mandates are necessary to increase productive investment in the United Kingdom. Indeed, mandation risks cutting across the fundamental principle that investment decisions should be taken in the best interests of savers by trustees and providers who are properly accountable for the outcomes. I am sure that we will hear more about these arguments in Committee.
When the Bill itself provides only a skeletal framework, the absence of clarity around how such powers might be used becomes all the more concerning. If any future Government were ever minded to pursue mandation, it is essential that any such power be tightly limited, that savers’ outcomes are clearly protected and that asset allocation decisions are insulated as far as possible from political cycles and short-term pressures. Investment decisions should remain with those charged with fiduciary responsibility and not be directed by Ministers, however well intentioned. Those safeguards cannot simply be assumed; in a framework Bill, they must be explicit.
Moreover, the case for mandation is further weakened by the existence of credible and constructive alternative routes to unlocking greater levels of UK investment. Industry participants, including Phoenix Group, have identified a number of areas where policy reform could make a meaningful difference without recourse to compulsion. Government institutions such as the National Wealth Fund and Great British Energy could play a significant role by aligning guarantee products with insurers’ matching adjustment requirements, by engaging institutional investors earlier so that projects are structured to meet long-term investment needs and by continuing collaboration with the ABI Investment Delivery Forum to deliver investable infrastructure pipelines.
Similarly, the Mansion House Accord, building on the 2023 compact, has already driven tangible industry action. In our view, the priority now should be delivery, rather than the creation of new and potentially far-reaching powers. That includes implementing a robust value-for-money framework with standardised metrics; introducing minimum default fund size requirements, whether £25 billion or £10 billion, with a credible growth plan; and aligning the defined contribution charge cap with the Pensions Regulator’s approach by excluding performance fees where appropriate.
More broadly still, stronger capital markets are essential if the United Kingdom is to attract both domestic and international investment. This includes supporting the work of the Capital Markets Industry Taskforce, exploring measures to foster a stronger home bias in UK equities, considering whether stamp duty on share transactions is acting as a drag on competitiveness, and examining targeted tax incentives for pension fund investment in UK infrastructure. Ultimately, rather than mandating investment, policy should focus on understanding why UK investment has lagged. That requires serious engagement with questions of market structure, regulatory design, the quality of investment pipelines and the underlying risk-return characteristics of UK assets. Mandation risks treating the symptoms rather than addressing the causes.
I look forward to the Minister’s response. I make no apology for laying out certain aspects that I believe fit with the purpose of the Bill. However, as I said at the outset, I hope that we have a productive and interesting Committee. I beg to move.
Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)
It is a pleasure to be here. Although for a while I was feeling a bit lonely, I very much welcome my noble friends; what we do not make up in numbers, I am sure my friends will more than make up for in the quality of their contributions. I declare an interest as a fellow of the Institute and Faculty of Actuaries.
It is worth at this stage spelling out that I have spent a lifetime advising people about pensions. I was the TUC’s pensions officer for a number of years. I was also a partner in a leading firm of consulting actuaries, and I worked for a number of years with a scheme actuaries certificate undertaking scheme valuations. In terms of sheer experience, I can fairly say that this is unique to noble Members of this House. I will not go on at length on future occasions, except when it is directly relevant.
The noble Viscount, Lord Younger of Leckie, declared his intention to avoid repeating a Second Reading speech—it is arguable as to whether he achieved that intention—but, in a sense, I welcome the opportunity to look at the Bill as a whole. While I support the Bill and I support my noble friends—there are some really good measures in here—the text underlying the opposition amendment suggests that we have a pensions system in chronically bad condition.
It suggests that returns are inadequate, that the system is fragmented and that it lacks transparency, with people unable to assess what they are getting. It provides inadequate communications. It is inconsistent across the different forms of provision. It prevents, or makes hard, innovative and flexible solutions to the problems that are faced. It needs to provide greater clarity for employers. It currently does not achieve responsible and innovative use of pension surpluses. To me, this suggests a system at risk of chronic failure.
To be honest, I accept those criticisms because underlying this system is the personal pension revolution introduced by the Conservative Government 40 years ago, which has proved to be unfit for purpose. We are having to make all these changes because of the failure of the system that the Conservative Government introduced. We need these changes because personal pensions did not work out. Collective provision is the answer to decent pension provision, and the Bill supports and develops collective provision and moves across this idea that everyone can have their own pot which they look after for themselves. I oppose the amendment and look forward to further discussions on the individual issues as they arise.
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, for introducing his amendment, and all noble Lords who have spoken. It is a particular delight to hear from so many colleagues so early in Committee.
I should begin by saying two things. First, I am a member of the parliamentary pension scheme, so I thank the noble Viscount, Lord Thurso, for his service and urge him to give the scheme even greater attentiveness in future; I would be very grateful for that. Secondly, I am about to disappoint most Members of the Committee, but I may as well start as I mean to go on. Many of the points made and questions asked will come up in subsequent Committee days—that is what Committee is for—so I hope that noble Lords will forgive me if I do not go into the detail of how surplus operates, how value for money operates or how asset allocation will work; I will come back to all of those. I should probably apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Fuller, because I cannot promise to go back to Star Wars figurines, but I will try to pick up most of the rest of the points at some stage.
The Bill delivers vital reforms to strengthen the UK pensions system, safeguarding the financial future of around 20 million savers while driving long-term economic growth. The Bill focuses on improving value and efficiency for workers’ pension savings, with an average earner potentially gaining up to £29,000 more by retirement. These measures will accelerate the shift towards a pensions landscape with fewer, larger and better-governed schemes that deliver for both members and the wider economy.
To support market consolidation, the Bill introduces superfunds, megafunds and Local Government Pension Scheme pools, creating scale and resilience. The value-for-money framework will ensure that schemes provide the best outcomes for savers, while guided retirement provisions will help members when accessing their savings. Other measures in the Bill will enable pension schemes to operate more effectively by streamlining governance, improving transparency and reducing unnecessary complexity. The reforms delivered through the Bill will create a more efficient, resilient pension landscape; they will also lay the foundation for the Pensions Commission to examine outcomes for pensioners and set out how to develop a fair and sustainable system, ultimately benefiting both individual savers and the UK economy.
To achieve these ambitions, the Bill makes a number of essential changes to the framework of law relating to private pension schemes and the LGPS, rather than pursuing a single overarching objective. To insert a purpose clause could cause legal uncertainty as a court could assume that a provision included in a Bill was intended to have some additional operative effect. The practical effect of the requirement to have regard to the purpose of the Bill, as expressed in this proposed new clause, is unclear.
The purposes of individual provisions are instead made clear through their drafting and the accompanying explanatory material, including the Explanatory Notes and the impact assessment. There is no need for an additional new clause at the start of the Bill setting out the purposes, as this is covered elsewhere more appropriately. This approach is in keeping with established practice; for example, the Financial Services and Markets Act 2023 was twice the size of the Pension Schemes Bill. Like the Bill, it deals with a complex legal landscape and made a number of separate and necessary changes to the law relating to financial services and markets. There is no purpose provision in that Act, just as no overarching purpose clause has been included in the Pension Schemes Bill. We will return to matters related to secondary legislation in the debate on a subsequent group of amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey.
I will pick up the point made by the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, about this being a framework Bill; he used that as an argument for a purpose clause. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, that, if he has not seen a purpose clause debate, he has not been in many debates in the Chamber recently, because they have appeared; unfortunately and inadvertently, they mostly resulted in long Second Reading debates at the start of many other pieces of legislation. I stress that that was neither the purpose nor the result here, but many of those debates have happened.
We do not consider this to be a framework Bill. The noble Viscount mentioned the idea of setting legislation now and setting policy later. Manifestly, that is not what is happening. The Bill clearly sets out the policy decisions and the parameters within which delegated powers must operate. It brings together a broad package of reforms in pensions into a single piece of legislation. Many of those reforms build on long-established statutory regimes, where Parliament has historically set the policy in primary legislation and provided for detailed measures that will apply to schemes to be set out in regulations. The policy direction is clearly set out here.
As we all know, the successful implementation of pensions depends heavily on trustees, schemes, providers and regulators, which makes engagement and operational detail essential rather than optional. There has been extensive consultation and there will be further extensive consultation. I do not think that this matter will be solved any further by adding a purpose clause.
Finally, the Long Title of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2023 was also described in neutral terms—
“to make provision about the regulation of financial services and markets”—
rather than providing a practically unworkable narrative explanation of the purpose of that legislation. The same applies here.
While I welcome the comments and look forward to returning to many of them in our debates, I hope that I have made the case not only for the Bill as a whole but as to why it is unnecessary and unhelpful to add a purpose clause. I ask the noble Viscount to withdraw his amendment.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this relatively short debate. Many of the points raised strongly reinforce the view that my noble friend and I are seeking to advance: that this is indeed a framework Bill, which in its current form would benefit from greater explanation, greater articulation of purpose and more fully developed safeguards. I believe that the debate has drawn out views on some of those listed purposes and that it has been helpful at the outset of Committee.
As my noble friend Lord Trenchard said, it is complicated—that adds to my argument. I was very grateful to have the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles. I am grateful to the Minister for her response and for beginning to provide some additional context around the Government’s intentions. It has been helpful up to a point, but I am not quite sure why she thinks a purpose clause would provide some uncertainty.
I remain of the view that a broader and more holistic articulation of where the Government would like the pensions system to be in five, 10 and 15 years’ time is still lacking. In fairness, that is likely to extend beyond what the Minister can reasonably be expected to provide today; I understand that. I accept her valid point that Committee is for delving into the detail of these matters, which we will be doing.
I will pick up just a few points from the debate. First, my noble friend Lord Fuller is absolutely right that we need a purpose clause to inspire people, particularly young people, to save for the future. That is a very valid point; it levels us, or brings us down to base, in terms of what we are trying to do here with this complicated Bill.
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment seeks to probe why the Secretary of State requires the power in subsection (2) to direct scheme managers to participate in, or withdraw from, particular asset pool companies, given the need to preserve their independence and fiduciary duty to act in members’ best interests.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My Lords, the amendments in this group begin a series of groups related to the Local Government Pension Scheme. We start with amendments that seek to improve what is already in the Bill. However, as later groups will demonstrate, the Bill remains light on the LGPS.
I am sure that the Minister and other noble Lords will have noticed that we have de-grouped a number of our amendments ahead of today, where they are most relevant to this group. I shall briefly explain our reasoning at the outset. We have no intention of frustrating the passage of the Bill. Rather, we have de-grouped those amendments where we felt it would facilitate a clearer and more focused discussion, enabling noble Lords to put more targeted questions to the Minister without requiring her, or indeed other noble Lords in Committee, to traverse an undue amount of technical detail in a single debate. I hope that our intentions on this point have been made clear.
I do not accept the characterisation that this is simply a private pensions Bill—the Local Government Pension Scheme is clearly included within its scope—nor do I accept the argument that addressing the problems of the LGPS is either too complicated or not a priority. If we are legislating on pensions, we must be prepared to deal properly with the LGPS. I will refrain at this stage from going into the specifics, but later we will bring forward six additional proposed new clauses about the LGPS aimed at making the scheme operate in a more coherent, transparent and practical way. We very much hope that the Minister will engage seriously with these proposals. They go to the root causes of the problems facing the LGPS: how contribution rates are set; how these rates can be challenged; why transparency matters; how opacity undermines confidence in the system; why valuations and methodologies are so important; and, crucially, why many employers are currently getting a bad deal.
However, let us begin with what is already before us in the Bill and why it must be properly probed. These amendments give rise to specific and important questions that we wish to put to the Minister. They concern not only the intent of the provisions but how they will operate in practice, how they will interact with existing LGPS governance and funding arrangements, and whether they genuinely address the problems that they are purported to solve. Clarity on these points is essential if we are to ensure that the Bill strengthens, rather than inadvertently weakens, confidence in the Local Government Pension Scheme.
The first amendment in this group, Amendment 2, would remove subsections (2) to (8) of Clause 1 in order to probe the breadth and necessity of the powers being taken by the Secretary of State. As drafted, Clause 1 goes far beyond enabling regulation. It gives the Secretary of State the power to direct individual scheme managers to participate in or withdraw from specific asset pool companies and to issue binding directions not only to those scheme managers but to the asset pool companies themselves. Trustees have clear and well-established fiduciary duties to act in the best interests of their members and beneficiaries. Decisions about investment structure, risk, performance and value for money are central to those duties. The question this amendment seeks to pose is therefore simple: why does the Secretary of State require the power to override those fiduciary judgments by direction?
The Government have already made clear their policy objective of encouraging greater pooling. What is not yet clear is why compulsion, backed by direction-making powers of this breadth, is considered necessary. I am also concerned about the precedent this sets. Once Ministers have the power to dictate where pension assets must be pooled, it is not difficult to imagine future pressure, real or perceived, for an overinvestment strategy, asset allocation or wider policy objectives, even where these may conflict with members’ best interests.
The amendment therefore invites the Minister to explain, first, what safeguards will exist to ensure that any direction does not conflict with the fiduciary duty of scheme managers to their members. Secondly, over what timeframe will a scheme manager be expected to comply with a direction to enter or leave an asset pool? How will this align with long-term investment strategies? Thirdly, have the Government consulted the Border To Coast Pensions Partnership and other LGPS pools about the potential impact of this power? Fourthly, does the Minister recognise that forced entry or exit from asset pools could disrupt investment strategy, reduce stability and deter private sector partnerships? Have the Government considered this risk?
I am afraid there are a lot of questions, but they are worth putting. How do the Government propose to deal with the risks of cross-subsidisation of employers with very different funding positions that are merged into the same asset pool by direction of the Secretary of State? What safeguards will be put in place to ensure that deficit management remains fair and proportionate across employers after such a merger? Will administering authorities be given the ability to ring-fence liabilities or negotiate separate funding arrangements if they are compelled to merge? Have the Government undertaken any modelling of the financial consequences of merging employers with very different funding positions? If so, will this analysis be published? Can the Minister set out what these prescribed circumstances might be?
I appreciate the letter the Minister sent to noble Lords last week, in which she set out the Government’s recognition of the importance of fiduciary duty. I recognise that and I am sure the whole Committee would therefore welcome some clarity on this question and how these powers can operate while satisfying that duty.
I appreciate that I have asked a lot of questions of the Minister. I do not expect a reply to them all now, but will she write to me to address any points she is unable to speak to today, copying in those who are in Committee today? As she will be aware, these questions are being asked by the industry as well as by noble Lords in Committee, and it is important that we get proper responses to them. This is a probing amendment, intended to elicit reassurance and clarity. Asset pooling can and should be done well, but it must be done in a way that respects trustee independence and preserves confidence in the governance of the Local Government Pension Scheme.
The second amendment in this group, Amendment 4, would remove Clause 2(2)(b), not because we are necessarily opposed to asset pooling but to probe why the Bill places a clear and binding destination in primary legislation while saying almost nothing about the journey required to get there. As drafted, Clause 2 requires the vast majority of Local Government Pension Scheme assets to be held and managed by asset pool companies, with the only acknowledgment of the practical complexities of that transition being a brief reference to
“transitional arrangements permitted by the regulations”.
We are talking about the transfer of very substantial sums across multiple funds with differing asset mixes, contractual arrangements and liquidity profiles. The question that this amendment poses is straightforward: why are transitional arrangements not set out in the Bill, even at a high level? Parliament is being asked to approve a mandatory structure without being shown how legacy assets, illiquid investments, existing mandates and contractual obligations will be unwound or migrated, and over what timescale. That is a significant delegation of policy detail to secondary legislation, particularly given the scale of assets involved.
I would be grateful if the Minister could explain how the Government envisage this transition being managed in practice, what safeguards will be in place to prevent forced or value-destructive transfers and how scheme managers can be confident that they will not be required to move assets in a way that conflicts with their fiduciary duties. The approach set out in our amendment would avoid ambiguity, provide greater clarity for scheme members and reassure taxpayers that pension funds are being managed in a consistent and accountable manner.
Local government pension schemes vary significantly in size, resources and operational approach and without clear statutory provision, there is a risk that practice could diverge across schemes. Given that pension funds involve very substantial sums of public money, it is appropriate that the most fundamental rules governing their management are set out in primary legislation rather than left solely to regulations. Doing so would ensure a higher level of parliamentary scrutiny and durability and help guard against the risk of standards being diluted in future through ministerial discretion.
This is also a probing amendment intended to elicit reassurance. We are clear, and I know the Minister appreciates, that confidence in the system depends on clarity about the transition, not simply an end state written into primary legislation. I hope she will take this opportunity to address that point today.
My Amendment 5 would remove Clause 2(2)(c). To be clear, this is not because we are opposed to local or place-based investment. Rather, it is a probing amendment designed to explore how the Government envisage the relationship between scheme managers and so-called strategic authorities operating in practice. Clause 2 introduces a new statutory duty requiring scheme managers to co-operate with strategic authorities to identify and develop appropriate investment opportunities. However, the Bill does not define what is meant by “appropriate” or set out the process by which this co-operation is to occur, the weight to be given to the priorities of strategic authorities or how disagreements are to be resolved. This vagueness will create a degree of ambiguity which could prove problematic in practice, particularly where different actors may have very different interpretations of what constitutes an appropriate investment.
One obvious question, therefore, is whether such opportunities are intended to be those defined by a fund’s investment strategy statement. As the Minister will know, the investment strategy statement sets out the fund’s objectives, asset allocation, risk management framework, ESG considerations and approach to pooling. If “appropriate” is not clearly anchored to that framework, there is a risk that scheme managers, strategic authorities and Ministers could each apply the term in rather different ways. This matters because scheme managers are trustees, bound by fiduciary duties to act in the best financial interests of scheme members. Strategic authorities, by contrast, have mandates to pursue local growth, regeneration and wider place-based objectives. Those aims may often align, but they will not always do so. Without clarity, there is a risk of politicisation, however unintended, whereby investments that are politically attractive or locally popular, such as particular infrastructure projects, are promoted despite not meeting the risk and return criteria appropriate for pension funds.
This amendment therefore seeks to probe how the Government will ensure that the statutory duty to co-operate does not place scheme managers under implicit pressure to prioritise wider government or regional objectives over their core fiduciary obligations. Is this duty intended to be advisory or directive? Will scheme managers be expected to justify decisions not to invest in opportunities advanced by strategic authorities? What safeguards will exist to ensure that pension investment strategies remain firmly anchored in members’ best financial interests?
Lord Katz (Lab)
That is very helpful. When I write to the noble Baroness, I will certainly make sure that we address the point around independent advisers. I appreciate the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, asking for that kind of clarification, so my written remarks will address that point.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his responses; I am also grateful for the debate we have had on this group of amendments.
I am grateful to all noble Lords beyond me who have asked further questions, particularly in the latter stage of this short debate. It is fair to say—I am saying this against myself—that, with so many questions having been directed originally to the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, but applying to both Ministers, it would be extremely helpful to have a full letter with the answers. This has been an important debate; some clear issues have been spoken to, and answers are required.
I will start by picking up some points made by the noble Lord, Lord Davies. He gave the impression—indeed, he said this; I cannot remember his expression—that I was being negative about the Local Government Pension Scheme. I reiterate the point made by my noble friend Lord Fuller: the Local Government Pension Scheme is efficient and is very much a British success story. In addition to that, my noble friend Lord Fuller set out—very eloquently, I thought—the concerns around both the complexities in the Bill and the unintended consequences. There are two clear sides to this. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Davies, on the success aspect; I want to be quite clear that he knows my position on this.
What unites the amendments in this group is not opposition to reform, nor hostility to pooling local investment or good governance. Rather, it is a concern about how far the Bill reaches into areas that have traditionally, and rightly, been the responsibility of trustees exercising fiduciary judgment. The noble Lord, Lord Katz, said that intervention by government is very much a last resort. I accept what he says but, as the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, asked—very tellingly—are the Government best placed to direct? Further, she made an interesting point on whether the £400 billion should be part of a sovereign wealth fund. That just shows that it is worth having this sort of debate on this important area of the Bill.
Across these clauses, the Bill moves from setting a framework to conferring powers of direction, compulsion and prescription; direction over participation in asset pools; compulsion towards a particular end state without a clear transition; duties to co-operate with strategic authorities without defined boundaries; and regulation-making powers that reach into advisory pathways and the content of investment strategies themselves. I feel from the debate that each of these elements raises the same underlying question: how will these powers be exercised in a way that is genuinely compatible with fiduciary duty, rather than merely being stated to be so?
With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment, but I also acknowledge that there is much work to be done in this area.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
I will speak simply to support the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey. It seems to me that there is an extraordinarily wide use of delegated powers in the Bill and, for all the reasons that he set out, we should look at that again. If the Government do not feel able to make a change to respond to his very persuasive points, we should at least have a full list of every delegated power that will be used, what the plans are in each case, and perhaps some specimen regulations of the kind that we have seen in some of the Department for Business and Trade legislation.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My Lords, this group of amendments focuses on scrutiny, clarity and responsibility, and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, for setting out the merits of the super-affirmative procedures and their historical context. It was interesting to hear what he had to say.
As the Committee will have seen, the provisions to which these super-affirmative procedures would pertain allow Ministers, through secondary legislation, to impose requirements and prohibitions on scheme managers, to direct participation in asset pool companies, to require withdrawal from them and to impose obligations on those companies themselves. These are significant powers, exercised in an area that is highly technical, operationally sensitive and financially consequential.
This is precisely the sort of context in which unintended consequences can arise, as alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey. These clauses are dense, complex and interconnected. They interact with fiduciary duties, local accountability, financial regulation and long-term investment strategy. Small changes in drafting or approach could have material effects on risk, returns, governance or market behaviour.
That is why I am glad that the amendment places particular emphasis on representations. The ability for Parliament, and expert stakeholders, to examine draft regulations, to make these representations, and for those representations to be meaningfully considered before regulations are finalised, is essential to the responsible exercise of these powers.
The super-affirmative procedure would ensure that Parliament is not simply asked to approve a finished product but is given the opportunity to understand the Government’s intent, to hear from those with deep expertise in pensions, asset management and regulation, and to see how concerns raised have been addressed. That is especially important where the primary legislation quite deliberately leaves so much to be filled in by regulation, as I explained earlier in Committee.
I hope the Minister will engage constructively with this point and explain why the Government believe the ordinary affirmative procedure provides sufficient scrutiny in this case, given the scale, complexity and potential impact of the powers being taken. I appreciate the short debate on this matter.
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, for introducing his amendments, and to all noble Lords who have spoken. This gives us an opportunity to talk about how best to balance the way we structure matters between primary and secondary legislation. However, the proposals from the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, would significantly expand the way Parliament scrutinises regulations made under the Bill. I understand why he would want to do that, but his proposals would introduce a level of rigidity into the process that is not only unusual in this area but obviously would be markedly more elaborate than the Bill currently provides for.
The super-affirmative procedure is generally reserved for exceptional circumstances, such as legislative reform orders or remedial orders under the Human Rights Act. I am not aware of any examples of it being applied to pensions regulations, but I am very open to being advised on that. In our view, it would be disproportionate to the nature of the powers conferred by the Bill, and I will explain why.
I will look first at Clause 1. The coalition Government introduced the Public Service Pensions Act 2013. Through that, Parliament established the way it would go about governing the making of scheme regulations. It was a comprehensive and well-tested scrutiny framework. It still operates today, including where new powers were created, for example, by the Public Service Pensions and Judicial Offices Act 2022. The framework created by that Act provides extensive safeguards, including mandatory consultation, enhanced consultation if changes have or might have retrospective effect, and Treasury consent. Introducing a substantially more onerous procedure for regulations under Clause 1, as proposed by Amendment 3, would sit uneasily alongside that established approach.
There are also practical considerations. Administering authorities and asset pool companies are preparing for regulations to be introduced shortly after the Bill has passed its parliamentary scrutiny. The Government have already published draft regulations on the LGPS measure. They were open to public consultation, which has recently closed. Adding a 30-day pre-scrutiny stage through the super-affirmative procedure would clearly extend that timetable and risk creating more uncertainty at a critical moment for those involved in implementing this.
Amendment 221 would allow either House to require that any affirmative regulations made under this Bill be subject to the super-affirmative process. That would already represent a significant expansion of parliamentary involvement compared with the long-standing approach to pensions.
Amendment 222 would go further still. It does not simply describe how the super-affirmative procedure would operate in this context; it would create a new statutory scrutiny process, more prescriptive and more inflexible than the mechanisms Parliament has used to date for pension regulations—or indeed most regulations. It would require a fixed 30-day scrutiny period in any case where either House decided to impose the new procedure. It would mandate a committee report, even for minor or technical regulations, and would prevent regulations being laid until Ministers had responded formally to all representations. The result would be a significant departure from the flexible way Parliament normally manages delegated legislation.
I hear the concerns the noble Lord has expressed about the way Parliament deals with secondary legislation, but scrutiny procedures are normally determined by the House through its practices and Standing Orders. Replacing those arrangements with a rigid statutory framework of this kind for this Bill would set a far-reaching precedent for delegated legislation more broadly, extending well beyond the requirements of this Bill.
I would submit that such a process would also make it harder for Parliament to focus scrutiny on the most significant instruments and would slow down the making of regulations in areas where timely and predictable implementation is crucial for funds, administering authorities and scheme members.
A certain amount of this comes down to whether the Committee accepts that the level of delegated powers is appropriate. I fully understand that the noble Lord does not. I disagree and I will tell him why. In answer to the noble Viscount, Lord Younger of Leckie, in the previous group I said that the Government do not regard this as a framework or skeleton Bill, because it sets out clearly the policy decisions and parameters within which the delegated powers must operate. The Bill brings together a broad package of reforms. Many of those reforms build on long-established statutory regimes set out by previous Governments—Governments of all persuasions, as well as previous Labour Governments—in which Parliament has historically set the policy in primary legislation and provided for the detailed measures that will apply to schemes to be set out in regulations.
The noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, asked for a full list of delegated powers. My department produced a very detailed delegated powers memorandum, which went through all the delegated powers at some length and in some detail, explaining what they meant. I would be very happy to direct the noble Baroness to that if that would be helpful.
One of the key questions the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, asked was: why are there so many delegated powers? Our view is that this is not out of kilter with other similar transformative pension Bills. We counted 119 delegated powers covering 11 major topics plus some smaller topics. For example, in the Pension Schemes Act 2021, there were almost 100 delegated powers covering three major topics. In the Pensions Act 1995, which was a transformative Bill, there were approximately 150 delegated powers.
This Bill brings together a number of distinct pensions measures in a single legislative vehicle, many of which amend or build on existing regimes that are already heavily reliant on secondary legislation for their detailed operation. In many areas, we are simply reflecting a similar framework to previous pensions legislation or amending it, so there is continuity rather than a step change.
A crucial point I want to lodge is that pensions policy is not delivered directly by government. Implementation depends on trustees, pension schemes, pension providers, administrators and regulators who have to design systems, processes and administration that work in practice. That level of detailed operational design can begin only once there is sufficient certainty that legislation will proceed. As noble Lords who have worked in or with industry will recognise, before there is sufficient certainty, industry cannot reasonably commit the significant time and resources needed to work through complex delivery arrangements where the legal basis may still change or not materialise. Delegated powers therefore allow the Government to set the policy framework in primary legislation and then work with those responsible for delivery to ensure that the technical detail is workable in practice, rather than attempting to prescribe detailed operational rules in primary legislation. That reflects established pensions practice and good lawmaking in a complex and fast-moving regulatory environment.
Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)
This is an important, basic matter. Directing investment by asset types raises difficulties. If pension funds or individuals knew which assets were going to go up, there would be no problem, but there is no guarantee of that, so, my question to the Minister is: are pension funds primarily long-term investors acting for members or instruments of policy delivery? The answer matters a lot for confidence in Local Government Pension Scheme governance. I am all for productive investment, but it can be a slippery slope if you get it wrong. I wonder whether the Minister can give us some guidance on that.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, for her two amendments in this group, for the remarkably brief discussion that has been prompted and for the opportunity that they provided for her and us to probe the Minister on these important issues. Noble Lords will be pleased to hear that I will not rehearse the arguments at length, as I touched on them in some detail earlier. However, I wish briefly to reiterate what I regard as a central and non-negotiable principle: the Local Government Pension Scheme exists first and foremost as a fiduciary vehicle. Scheme managers are under a clear legal duty to act in the best financial interests of members and beneficiaries, and that duty must remain paramount.
Against that background, Amendment 13 raises a particularly important question, one that has been put to us repeatedly by industry representatives from a wide range of backgrounds; namely, what type of assets do the Government have in mind in which funds should be directed to invest? I think this is the essential argument of the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann. Is the intention to focus on infrastructure, debt servicing or supporting new towns and similar developments? The noble Baroness also raised the point of what percentage should be invested in UK assets. As she pointed out, perhaps 25% should be invested in UK growth assets, and, therefore, what is the definition of growth? Lots of questions arise from the noble Baroness’s amendments.
I recognise, and I think the noble Baroness alluded to this, that we will return to this issue in greater detail when we come to consider the reserve power, but like the noble Baroness, I wish to flag this matter at this stage as it has been a theme this afternoon on this first day of Committee and a live and pressing question not only for us but, I reiterate, for the many third-party stakeholders with whom we have engaged.
Lord Katz (Lab)
My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, for tabling these amendments. I cannot speak on behalf of the whole Committee, but I would say that it is most people’s intention to encourage greater investment in UK assets. Growth is certainly the number one mission of this Government. If you did not realise that, you have probably been hiding under a rock these past few months and years.
These amendments would direct LGPS funds to make investments in certain UK asset classes. Supporting UK growth by making investments in such assets, in tandem with seeking appropriate returns, is a valuable function of the scheme and the noble Baroness is right to be interested in this important topic. As I have mentioned, the LGPS already invests around 30% of assets in the UK. Greater consolidation will build on this success story, as the pools will have greater capacity and expertise to invest domestically.
Lord Fuller (Con)
My Lords, now I am really worried—every time I have followed the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, I have tried to amplify the points he has made.
I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, on her masterful exposition of a technical piece of detail; she brought it down to the ground and made it alive. She put her finger on it when many of us have not been able to put our finger on what makes us so uncomfortable about the Bill. We know that it is not right. When you get meddlesome Ministers fiddling around in stuff where they do not really know what they are doing, there is not just co-operation but—as the noble Baroness exposed—a connivance and a cartel. She explained how those two things have led to conflicts of interest; there will be a lot of Cs in the words I am about to use. It is anti-competitive, and it has restricted choice.
The noble Baroness has wedged open the door because, later on in the Bill, there are provisions—I will not defer to them too much now—for the existing operators to lock out new entrants. I was instinctively uncomfortable with that but, now, I am worried because there seems to be a guiding hand here to reduce choice, stifle innovation and damage the reputation of the City. I do not think that that was purposeful, but this is what happens when you get a Bill that is so overly complicated and takes people away from saving for their long-term retirement.
I nearly feel sorry for the noble Lord, Lord Katz, because I have never seen such an evisceration. I am sure he is going to defend it and do the best he can. But what the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, has shown is that it is rather like the Chancellor, who now says she had no idea what was really happening when she put the rates on the pubs. It was a mistake, and she did not have all the information to hand. While I accept that the noble Lord, Lord Davies, has said we will come back to this on another day, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, because she has given an opportunity—a breathing space or an air gap—for the Government to now go back to look at this in more detail.
The noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, also laid out the import of this amendment when she said that one-third of all the FTSE 350 is engaged in this. I expect the Minister in winding to say, for a third time, that growth is the number one priority of this Government. Let us hope he does say that because, if he does, he will either accept this amendment here and now, or give an undertaking that, at some stage before we get to this in the main part of the debate, it will be accepted and we can move on.
It is not just casting a shadow over the LGPS and the parts of Yorkshire which are disinvesting; it is accidentally casting a shadow over the City of London, which is the world’s second or third largest financial centre. It must be stopped. I think the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, has done the Committee and our nation a great service in the last half an hour, and she is to be congratulated for it.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My Lords, I was due to give a very short speech. It is still short, but it has got slightly longer in terms of the content of this debate. I am particularly grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted and Lady Altmann, for tabling Amendment 10, which we welcome and which I understand to be a sensible and proportionate safeguarding measure. I want to go a bit further because there were two particularly powerful speeches, in particular that from the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles.
As we read it, the amendment seeks to ensure that investment strategies cannot be used to favour particular investment vehicles over comparable or competing alternatives. In doing so, it would help to guard against strategies becoming a back-door means of directing capital, rather than serving their proper purpose as high-level statements of investment policy.
That distinction matters. Investment strategies should guide objectives, risk appetite and approach and not hardwire specific vehicles or delivery mechanisms into statute or regulation. Preventing the embedding of such preferences also reduces the risk of political or regulatory pressure or—I will use the word—interference, being reflected in investment strategy documents and helps to preserve trustee independence and proper decision-making. Although it is a serious subject, the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, gave us a succinct, well-argued speech with her bucket wrapper analogy. She gave a hard-hitting speech with some important questions which I hope the Minister will be able to answer.
One issue that has been made clear today, which has arisen in a number of debates, and was encapsulated in this short debate, is the opaqueness of “government direction”. I was very taken by the equally hard-hitting speech from my noble friend Lord Fuller. The confusion—by the way, the C is for confusion, just to add that in—is over the responsibility with the grey areas, notably in respect to the understandings, or not, from the Mansion House Accord and those who were the signatories.
One question to ask is whether those signatories now realise what they have got themselves into, or what their understanding was then and what it is now. I ask that as an open question, particularly in relation to the inclusion or exclusion of different types of investment. The noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, focused particularly on open-ended or close-ended. There is a lot of emphasis here. Most unusually, I was in total agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Davies. I am not sure that that has happened with me in the past.
To conclude, we therefore welcome the intent of Amendment 10. It would be very helpful if the Minister could indicate whether—and if so, how—the Bill as currently drafted already guards against this risk. It is a crucial question and relates to all the questions that have been asked. What assurances can be given that investment strategies will not be used to prescribe or favour particular investment vehicles in practice?
Lord Katz (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted and Lady Altmann, for this amendment. I agree with them that funds in the LGPS should not be specifying preferences between similar investment vehicles in their investment strategies. I fear that the rest of my response may well disappoint the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, and—though perhaps not to such a great extent—the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann. I say in passing to the Committee that it is always good to hear consensus breaking out, even if it rather gets to the horseshoe theory of politics when it is my noble friend Lord Davies and the noble Lord, Lord Fuller. But let us try to end today’s Committee session on a positive note.
I will now go into the detail. Under our reforms, decisions on implementation of strategies, including selection of appropriate vehicles and managers, will be made by the LGPS pools, which will have the capacity and expertise to deliver the benefits of scale that we have discussed. It is the Government’s view that the draft regulations are already clear in that respect. This will be supported by guidance, setting out that investment manager selection is solely the responsibility of the pool. LGPS pools will make the decision on whether to invest through external managers and which managers to use, and there is nothing whatever to prevent them using investment trusts should they consider it beneficial.
This is where the space for disappointment potentially arises. I am aware of the concerns expressed in relation to the treatment of listed investment funds, notably investment companies and trusts, under the reserve asset allocation powers, which are relevant to DC pension schemes. That was set out very powerfully by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles. The Committee will have the chance to debate these concerns when we reach Clause 40 and discuss Chapter 3, which deals with asset allocation for DC schemes.
To get to the heart of it, the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, asked about the impact on the LGPS. To give reassurance, we are not excluding closed-ended investment funds from the LGPS. I can be absolutely clear that that is the case. We are not excluding them, and neither will local authorities be directed to exclude them. I hope that provides clarity as we discuss the LGPS elements of the Bill.
Having said that, we have had comments around investment and asset types, particularly from my noble friend Lord Davies, as well as others, on this group of amendments. We will take what has been said and consider it in time for the debate on this issue when we get to it in greater detail. In anticipation of that day—which we are all looking forward to, particularly at two minutes to Committee rising—I ask the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, to withdraw her amendment.