Infrastructure Bill [HL]

Lord Judd Excerpts

Monday 3rd November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Palmer (CB)]

My Lords, I fully support this amendment. The happiest moments of my week are when I get a kiss from all the onboard staff on the east coast line on Thursday lunchtime. It is incredibly important to realise that we have had two failed privatisations on the east coast line. Even at this last stage, very late in the day, I hope and pray the Government will not denationalise the east coast line. In my view—and I spend an enormous amount of my life on the east coast line—it would be absolutely mad, especially bearing in mind the two failed franchise bids.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, I spend a great deal of my time on the west coast line. All I can say is that when for one reason or other I use the east coast, I look at it with some envy. It is a very successful operation. I cannot believe that this is happening for any reason other than ideological commitment. That is a daft way to run an essential national public service. Pragmatism is the order of the day.

My noble friend Lord Berkeley referred to what is happening with Eurostar. I find it extraordinarily irresponsible that a railway system of that kind, which is so basic to the strength of our economy and well-being—the European market, whether we are in the Common Market or not, is so crucial to our economic success—should be handed away from public accountability and control. That is a basic lifeline. Of course this is happening in other industries as well. When I read of the Chinese coming in on certain strategic areas, I begin to wonder where on earth our economic policies tie up with our strategic analysis of the world in which we live.

The great thing to remember—my noble friend Lord Berkeley referred to this too—is that when public companies on the European mainland take the opportunity to provide public services in this country, they do so in a context in which in their own countries this is not seen as an ideological test of purity but a matter of pragmatism: what makes sense to be practically and pragmatically in the public sector and what makes sense in the private sector. In that context, they have been highly successful.

I personally favour—and I find myself cheered to realise that the majority of public opinion seems to be in that direction—a completely publicly owned rail system within this country because it is so crucial to our economy and every other matter. I also think it has a good deal to do with the morale of those working on it. If they feel they are actually providing a public service, and get a professional pride from providing a public service rather that simply providing profits, that has an impact and some significance.

If we are not to have that in the Bill—I hope we may have it at some stage—then it seems that this is a very effective damage limitation exercise. Nobody could accuse it of being doctrinaire politics because it accepts that the private sector will be there; it just says, is it not sensible? If the opportunity occurs, it makes pragmatic good sense and there is a rational way to undertake it, the public sector should be running part of the railway system. It would be a very good test of the comparative merits of both. I find the present situation ridiculous and I am alarmed that this kind of oversimplified thinking can dictate policy on something as vital to our economy as this.

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, I ask the Minister to consider what will happen if the bids received under the franchise competition actually give less money—or are worth less to the taxpayer—than the present east coast trains. If the bids are lower than that being achieved by the present operator, that really does sound like the economics of the madhouse. Those who are bidding have the sword of Damocles hanging over them, because open access operators are allowed access to the track at a much lower price than the franchised operator. It appears that the open access operators are massing for an attack on the east coast line.

Lastly, I recommend to the Minister an article in Passenger Transport, a rather specialist magazine. There is a good two-page article about customer service and its effect on staff morale and how the present franchising system does not allow operators to go strong on customer service. If they do so, they risk losing the next bid because customer service, among other things, cannot be put into a financial evaluation.

Infrastructure Bill [HL]

Lord Judd Excerpts

Tuesday 8th July 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

It sounds a very good name. However, might there not be some confusion with another body with the same initials—the TUC?

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, I think that this amendment deserves full-hearted support. What has raised a great deal of concern is that roads should become the exclusive prerogative of drivers and passengers. Of course, they are serving the wider community, or could serve the wider community. If we are taking the opportunity for more strategic thinking about the future in transport, it seems very unfortunate inadvertently to work against that objective by limiting imagination in titles like this. Amending the title in the way suggested would begin to open up the responsibility of those who are administering roads and those who are driving on roads—passengers who are using or riding in cars—to think of the wider community. From that standpoint, I am very glad that my noble friend has moved the amendment.

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, I think that we may again be confusing a legal name and a trade name. For example, there has been a proposal that the watchdog should use the title “Road User Focus” to try to describe its activities, in order to make it clear that it represents the whole motoring community, including car drivers, passengers, drivers of commercial vehicles, commercial passengers and operators. People have said to me, “Don’t forget the motorbikes or the electric bikes”. This body will also look out for cyclists, pedestrians and other non-motorised users, and listen to the needs of those who have a special relationship with the network, such as disabled motorists and disabled people more generally who use the road network. It is an attempt to bring together all these voices, many of whom are represented as a sub-segment by an existing organisation such as the AA or RAC. This organisation would, frankly, draw them all together.

I fully accept that the title Passengers’ Council does not match this arrangement. However, the Local Transport Act 2008 already provides the legal powers to change the name of the council through secondary legislation. We are working with the existing council to develop a new name, and plan to bring forward the relevant orders to make the change once the legislation is ready. I am sure that your Lordships would be very welcome to contribute your various ideas for a more appropriate name. In addition, the Passengers’ Council is free to choose to use any branding name it considers appropriate on a day-to-day practical level, and may even operate under more than one name if that reflects its needs. For several years now, it has been known publicly as Passenger Focus rather than by its legal name. We do not think that this issue will give rise to any difficulties. Establishing the watchdog under the title “Road User Focus” should not inhibit coming to an ideal name for public use.

[Lord Judd]

I put it to the Minister that the purpose of having this kind of discussion in a Committee format is that it is, as it were, pre-legislative consideration. Otherwise, what is the point? We do not press matters to a vote. We are putting up new ideas and suggestions about how things can be improved. The Minister made some conciliatory remarks about the spirit of the amendment but if the Government are really that open-minded, why should they limit the concept from the start? Okay, we can change the title later, but why do we not say from the very beginning that roads involve a much wider community interest than just the interests of those who drive cars and ride in them? Right from the beginning, we want to give a signal to the whole community that this is about something wider.

[Baroness Kramer]

Perhaps I may just explain. We have had a number of conversations about the wider community who make up road users, and we have talked about the possibility of having lists. Such an approach would create problems because there are always additional thoughts about who should be included in the list. As noble Lords will see in Hansard, we started out with a discussion that covered obvious road users such as car drivers, pedestrians and cyclists. People have certainly come to me and said, “You’ve got to include Segways in it”, “We certainly need to include horse riders”, and, “What do you do about mobility scooters?”. Many potential issues arise once you start getting into list mode. What we have tried to do throughout this whole process is make it clear that we, and indeed the Passengers’ Council, have a very wide interpretation and intend to capture everyone who actually uses the road in one way or another. Just creating a detailed list gets us into more trouble than having just that broad understanding. That is why we have kept with this name.

As I said, there are ongoing discussions. Noble Lords have excellent ideas and are in frequent communication with the community. We would be very glad to share with the Passengers’ Council the names that have been proposed today to see whether it is inspired by them to identify what it thinks would be the most appropriate name for it to use. I do not think that we want to start making legislative changes at this stage, when there is so much flexibility provided for in the system we have.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Kramer]

The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, is exactly right. Passengers’ Council is the legal name of this body. It could be changed in secondary legislation but, as I said, it uses a trading name and calls itself Passenger Focus in the work that it does with the rail industry. It is perfectly able to choose what it considers an appropriate name. I have enormous respect for the Passengers’ Council, and for it to use its correct legal name. I am comfortable leaving it to decide on the appropriate trading name to use. I suggest that we communicate to the Passengers’ Council the various names that have been suggested today, but it seems to me that the council is best positioned to test the matter with various people to discover what the public think most clearly expresses the role that it wants to carry out, rather than for the Committee to come up with an appropriate trading name. Our skill, after all, is legislation. The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, provided an excellent example of a body understanding its role and coming up with a name that resonated strongly with the public by accurately describing its activities.

[Lord Judd]

Perhaps the Minister could clarify one point. I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, gave a marvellous example of imaginative thinking by people who were given a task and who realised that fulfilment of that task was related to the public perception of what the organisation was about, and so the title should have conveyed the spirit of what it was about. However, I am not quite clear whether the Minister said that it would depend on secondary legislation or whether the power already exists. That point should be clarified. If it does depend on secondary legislation, it would be a pity not to have a wider concept at this stage. I should like to think that everyone working on the Bill is saying, “Here’s a great opportunity to open up the imagination about the responsibility of all concerned”.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I assumed that the Minister was indicating that of course there would need to be legislative change if the title of the Passengers’ Council were changed. I am reluctant to get too much involved in proposals at this stage because we have a fair legislative trail ahead of us. We have this stage of the Bill as well as two later stages to consider the matter. The Bill will then go to the Commons, which I think will be pretty articulate about the unsatisfactory nature of the present name and will propose changes. As I understand it, the Minister was saying that it is quite possible that the council will recognise the necessity for change, particularly if it is endorsed in the Commons, and that there would still need to be legislative change, but that it would be secondary legislation when we could all pile in again. I do not think that we need worry too much about the degree of definitiveness that we need to arrive at at this point, although there have been some very useful suggestions from those who have spoken to the amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 42, I shall also speak to some of the other amendments in this group. The intention of this group is to discuss in more detail the role of the watchdog, what it might do, who it might look after and some of its objectives. We discussed this in outline during Second Reading.

We should start with Amendment 51, because that defines who the users of this road network are. One of these days I shall start putting pedestrians first, then cyclists and then motor vehicles to make people realise it is not just for fast cars. However, as other noble Lords have mentioned, there are also horseriders and perhaps in the future Segway users and all kinds of things. The monitor—Passengers’ Council or whatever we call it—should look after the interests of all those.

As to Amendment 42, it would be useful to expand some of the relevant activities to take into account the needs of not only the users but the communities that are affected by roads, and also to put in this objective to reduce their impact. There is then the issue of looking into modal shift, which I make no apology for coming back to again. Reducing the need for travel is something very few Governments ever look at. They currently look separately at forecasts for road, for rail and for air. Cycling does not really come into it, and neither does the thought of looking into the possibility of modal shift and what would be needed for that to be achieved. The end of proposed new subsection (2A)(c) covers this with reference to,

“land use and travel planning along such highways”.

Passengers’ Council produces some excellent data and reports on transport trends in the railway industry. I am sure that it would do the same thing on highways if it gets the chance to do so. It would be nice to think that some of its reports could then be used by either the Office of Rail Regulation or the Secretary of State in looking at the performance of the companies and whether they get fined, as we debated earlier. Again, it would be much better if it were done by the ORR.

This watchdog has an enormously important role to play. The Minister has already indicated that its role would be completely different from those of the organisations looking after the interests of current users, such as the British Horse Society, the Freight Transport Association, the Road Haulage Association, the Cyclists Touring Club, the pedestrians’ association, the AA and the RAC. I have probably forgotten a few and the Minister will not want a list anyway. However, I would like her to confirm that these organisations will not see their roles changing very much. The passenger watchdog should produce something that is more strategic and detailed in its analysis while also looking at some of the wider benefits and disbenefits which I have tried to outline in the amendment. I beg to move.

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, I warmly support what my noble friend has said. I should say at the outset of our deliberations that I am sorry that I was not able to be here for the first meeting. I should also underline that I am a strong supporter of the CPRE and that I am involved in the capacity of honorary officer in a number of environmental agencies, not least those dealing with our national parks. All of that is relevant.

We should go back to the mainstream of the argument that we had on the previous amendment. The roads should serve the community. We are a closely knit island with a lot of complex interests to reconcile. Direct impacts and consequences can arise from a new piece of legislation which may quickly become unintended consequences. It is therefore terribly important to get right, at the beginning of a Bill, the approach and ground rules for any strategy that is to be established. An example is the realm of public health. We keep saying that we want more people to take up cycling and walking. It is perfectly clear to me that the role of any regulation in this sphere should be to ensure that not only are those objectives reconcilable with other policies in the public realm, but that they can be furthered.

But then there are all the people who do not use the roads because they are intimidated by and frightened of them. Their interests also need to be looked at very carefully. There are communities which have to contend with increased noise on roads arising from more feed-ins and feed-outs from strategic routes. We need to have some imagination and clarity of thinking right at this early stage about the wider social purposes which the regulator should be looking at in the fulfilment of the Government’s policy. At the moment, looking at the responsibilities of Government and quite apart from their aspirations as expressed for, as I have just said, public health, there is a conflict. We keep narrowing the scope down to, in effect, passengers and drivers, when the much wider community is involved. It is therefore sensible to make this clear at the outset in the tasks set out for regulation.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, we have major doubts about whether the Passengers’ Council will provide an adequate forum for the public response, so we want to take the opportunity in this new legislation of not just renaming the body, but of widening its perspective. I have tabled two amendments which seek to ensure that the interests of cyclists and pedestrians would form part of the perspective of the strategic highways company, and that the needs of local communities are taken fully on board. Major road schemes clearly have an impact on all communities. However, both of my amendments can more than safely be withdrawn because they are overwhelmed by the more extensive and detailed series of amendments which have been put down by my noble friend Lord Berkeley, and typically my noble friend Lord Judd has backed the winning side. I will certainly not move my amendments when we come to them, and I have a great deal of sympathy with what my noble friend Lord Berkeley has said.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, if this Committee is doing nothing else, it is giving us a wonderful opportunity to hear a series of very real, illustrative and important anecdotes from the noble Lord about what actually happens and what happened in his direct experience. I find that valuable in our deliberations. However, I am a bit puzzled as to why he thinks that he and I are on different sides of the fence; we are not. Of course the monitor’s job is not to make decisions in this field. A monitor’s job is to ensure that the procedures have been properly followed. All that I am arguing is that the monitor should therefore have a responsibility in the Bill to ensure that the consultations have been as wide as they should have been.

The noble Lord gave a beautiful example of how, by using good sense, imagination and contacts, he was able to persuade the relevant Ministers to come to see the situation and why his constituents felt so strongly. Unless I misheard him, he went on to say that the Ministers agreed that that particular section of road should be put underground. All I want is a situation in which the monitor has a responsibility to ensure that that kind of consultation has taken place and that it is not just up to the personal relationships and contacts of certain Members of Parliament and certain Ministers.

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

I do not want to prolong this, but is that not the function of the planning system rather than of a body that is monitoring the strategic highways company and the railways? There is a separate planning system, which is going through Parliament at the moment with regards to HS2 and which has nothing whatever to do with the Office of Rail Regulation. It is a planning system and I think that these two things should be kept entirely separate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, just as the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, was quite right to emphasise the importance of the functions that are attached to a particular terminology—I do not dissent from his argument at all—it is also important to recognise that we are dealing with a watchdog here, something that the Minister has herself made plain. We are debating what the responsibilities of that watchdog should be and on whose behalf it should be working. I am convinced that I will go to my grave saying that one of the things that has gone wrong in the public perception of successive Governments is that in road policy you can somehow separate out the interests of drivers and passengers from the interests of the communities through which they are driving. Of course, when the planners have had their say and so on, the road will be built. One of the things the watchdog can do is say, “Hang on a moment. What is happening to the people who live here as distinct from the people who will drive through?”. I think that that is an imaginative concept which we need to take hold of, and there is an opportunity in this new legislation to acknowledge the interests that go wider than just those of drivers and passengers. I have a concept of cohesive society and community, not of the interests of one group of people prevailing willy-nilly over the interests of another group.

[Baroness Kramer]

I would say first to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, that the watchdog is just one part of the total family of entities here, which include the monitor, the Secretary of State and the SHC. It is therefore right that it should have a very specific role, which is to represent the road user. I have underscored over and again that it is not the car driver and the passenger but the whole body of people who we understand as making up “road users”. That is important. I rather object to lists because they tend to miss various categories of road user, which would be neither fair nor, frankly, right. That is why I prefer the broader term of “road user”, and I repeat that it is not meant to be confined to the driver and the passenger; it embraces a much broader group.

Secondly, we must make sure that the watchdog has a manageable job of work that it can do effectively. It is meant to be a voice for road users. If we give it a much wider breadth of responsibility for local communities and other kinds of objectives that we want to achieve, it will struggle to provide the voice that is needed to ensure that the road user is heard. I think we can say that historically many road users do not feel that they have had a voice, and they want to make sure that it is there for them in the future because that is appropriate.

Let us look at the equivalent on the rail side of transport. We do not ask Passenger Focus to explore the needs of communities through which our railways pass. The body is focused very much on the needs of the passenger, and that is why it delivers. I therefore disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham. Passenger Focus is a highly respected body that is considered to be doing an incredibly good job and is very effective. We want to try to replicate that effectiveness over on the road side of transport.

The issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Judd, about the relationship between roads and communities, as well as the issues raised by others about roads and the environment, are entirely legitimate and important, but they should be handled using strategies other than through the particular role of the watchdog. It is important to make sure that the road user defines the tasks of the watchdog. For those reasons, I resist this proposal.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Hanworth (Lab)]

My Lords, I wish to lend strong support to Amendment 56 in the name of my noble friend Lord Berkeley. In the phraseology of the Labour Party, paragraph (b) in his amendment contains an injunction to think in a joined-up manner and to envisage road and rail as parts of an integrated transport system.

The perspectives from which our party views matters of transport policy differ greatly from those of the Conservatives. We envisage an integrated system. The Conservatives, by contrast, tend to place road and rail in quite different categories. The railways were regarded by them as a prime example of a loss-making nationalised industry that required to be privatised. The roads have been regarded as a means whereby our citizens have been able to exercise a fundamental liberty to come and go as they please throughout the land, and for this the road users have been heavily subsidised.

The consequence of this dichotomy—or should I call it a schism?—has been a failure to envisage how these different modes of transport might interact or have a clear idea of their relative advantages. For example, the damage inflicted on the roads by HGVs has not been properly taken into account, and therefore the benefits of transferring road freight to the rails have been largely ignored.

We have before us an Infrastructure Bill that is liable to make joined-up thinking in respect of our transport system even more difficult to achieve. By putting the strategic highways company at arm’s length from the ministry, it will be out of mind and out of sight as far as the Secretary of State is concerned. The only respect in which the Bill proposes to join the roads with the rails is by asking the Office of Rail Regulation to monitor the highways company and by giving the oversight of road users’ interests to the Passengers’ Council, which is ostensibly a body that was intended to serve the interests of rail passengers.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, frankly, I am not very optimistic about the messages that are being put forward from this side of the Committee being taken very seriously by the Minister because she seems to be completely preoccupied with drivers and passengers as the paramount interests at which we should be looking.

If one were looking at the United Kingdom from another galaxy, the first thing that would be said is, “My God, look at the size of the population of that country. Look at the different, complex dimensions to that society. Look at all the issues that arise, the different groups of real communities and real industry and commerce. How can all that be reconciled?”. From that standpoint, where is the evidence of a strategic approach? This talk about being in silos is exactly what frightens me. It is a mad way to look to our interests as an integrated, complex, interdependent nation; it is crazy. We should be looking at what strategies are required, what the interests of the community are as a whole and how to bring them together to maximum effect. That must mean a closely integrated approach towards our railway and road development—but we just do not have that. Successive generations at the Ministry of Transport and the Department for Transport have completely failed to grasp that it is just not in the interests of the British people to go on operating in this way; we have to bring it all more closely and constructively together. From that standpoint, I applaud the amendment.

Infrastructure Bill [HL]

Lord Judd Excerpts

Wednesday 18th June 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to tackle rather a different dimension to the Bill but, at the outset, I remind the House that my home is in a national park and that I am a vice-president of the Campaign for National Parks and a patron of Friends of the Lake District. I am also a strong supporter of the CPRE.

There is a great deal to be said in favour of an infrastructure Bill. Infrastructure is of course fundamental to a strong economy and an effectively functioning society. However, the economy and the supporting infrastructure are never ends in themselves but are part of the means by which we achieve a society worth living in. That brings us straight into the realm of qualitative considerations.

Surely we all agree that the countryside, including as it does the national parks, areas of outstanding natural beauty and the green belts, not to mention biodiversity, is a priceless asset. It enriches the soul, provides indispensible opportunities for the physical and challenging activity so vital for a healthy nation, and is in many ways the lung system of the United Kingdom. The countryside provides the contrast that is psychologically vital amid the pressures, stresses and demands of our otherwise high-octane life. Access for everybody to the experience it provides should at all times be a key priority in public policy. My formative years were during the war and immediately afterwards. I was deeply impressed as a youngster by the way that great post-war Government never forgot that reality, amid all the other challenges of recovery.

It is in that context that I raise certain points for clarification. I hope that the Minister will be able to clear them up at Second Reading or, if not tonight, by letter, which would, presumably, be placed in the Library. Why really is the Highways Agency to be turned into strategic highways companies? Is it genuinely and primarily about delivering a higher-quality and more effective service for the implementation of public policy? Or is it really, when everything else has been stripped away, another Treasury-inspired, ideological determination to reduce the size of the state?

Value for money is of course critical. Could not maximum economic efficiency and cost savings, however, be achieved by better management within the present system, rather than by this questionable legislation? The Transport Committee in the House of Commons is not convinced. Bodies such as the CPRE are deeply anxious and—like, I suspect, many others in this House—I share the doubts of both. The story of the railways and other public utilities is hardly altogether universally reassuring. What matters most is the effectiveness and quality of service provided, not simply the profitability of the undertaking. Undeniably, profitability can be one indicator—although, all too often crude and deceptive—of efficiency.

We still need far more detailed information, and I have been interested to hear other noble Lords stressing this point. We are going into legislation once again in the absence of all the detailed information that should be available. Can the Government clarify whether the terms of reference for the proposed roads watchdog will include a requirement to consider the needs of local communities and the enhanced protection of the natural environment, and not just the interests of road users? If not, why not? Similarly, what about co-operation between the new company, local authorities and other transport bodies? What are the implications for present requirements under the Localism Act 2011 and the network management duty in the Traffic Management Act 2004? Will not the role of the roads monitor need to be expanded to include adjudication when there are policy differences between the highways company and, for example, city regions? After the first road investment strategy, is parliamentary responsibility to be abandoned? Where is the provision for parliamentary oversight of future road investment strategy? Why does the schedule provide only for consultation for varying an RIS but not, as I understand it, the setting of new ones in the first place for each five-year period?

Are the Government establishing—again, if not, why not—new arrangements for environmental regulation covering carbon emissions from the strategic road network and its total land take, licensing conditions to reduce the environmental impacts of existing roads, and the management of demand, rather than settling just for reducing the harm caused by new roads? Why is the opportunity not being taken to support a wider range of highly necessary environmental and social objectives by, for example, a commitment to increase funding for walking and cycling? Where is the statutory commitment to enhancing the well-being of biodiversity and landscape—one of the UK’s finest and most important public goods? Why is it not firmly there in the Bill?

If a principal purpose of the RIS is intended to be greater long-term certainty for the future funding of major roads, will the Government guarantee that this will not be at the expense of reducing funding for local road maintenance, road safety and alternatives to road building such as public transport and, of course, walking and cycling? As things stand, there is no certainty that the local sustainable transport fund will be available beyond 2016. Since its inception in 2011, it has supported improved public transport provision in a number of national parks, but there is still much more that could be done.

It is proposed that the Secretary of State should have discretion to allow non-material changes to be made to nationally significant infrastructure projects without developers having to resort to the process of seeking development consent. That is a very broad power. It may make a lot of sense in some circumstances, but will the Government provide more detail about how the power would be exercised in practice, and about what the checks and balances would be?

The Bill would allow certain types of planning conditions to be automatically discharged if a local authority fails to make a decision in a prescribed time. Is that always acceptable? In the real world, planning departments are already under great pressure, accentuated by recent cuts, in getting local plans into place. The right to appeal against the planning condition already exists. Why is this additional power required? Again, how will it work in practice, and what would be the checks and balances?

The statutory purposes of the national parks are to conserve and enhance natural beauty, wildlife and cultural heritage and to promote opportunities for public enjoyment and understanding of their special qualities. Section 62 of the Environment Act 1995 requires that:

“In exercising or performing any functions in relation to, or so as to affect, land in a National Park, any relevant authority shall have regard to”,

its statutory purposes. As the proposed highways company will no longer be a public body, it is not clear whether the Section 62 duty would automatically continue to apply. Will the Government give an unqualified reassurance that the duty to have regard to national park purposes will apply to the new government-owned company and tell us precisely how? Indeed, I hope any Government committed to a UK worth living in would look to all departments to ensure an enhanced and strong future for the countryside, national parks, areas of outstanding natural beauty, green belts and our biodiversity system.

Where this Bill relates to housing, I take second place to nobody in my total conviction that we desperately need a concerted drive for an adequate number of decent, affordable houses. However, I equally take second place to nobody in my conviction that these houses must never be built in such a way that they impinge on and endanger those priceless dimensions, including the UK’s biodiversity, which are there to be inherited and enjoyed by the people living in those houses. The challenge in social planning is not the countryside versus housing—that is an oversimplified and very misleading notion—but the countryside and houses. Housing must be situated in brownfield sites and numerous other places, not least used or underused government land, which should be prioritised for homes. Lack of imagination, inertia and short-sighted profiteering are too often the real enemies.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Kramer]

I certainly have no knowledge of any other intentions. As I said, there will be a proper response to the consultation. That may be helpful in clarifying any remaining questions for the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie.

I confirm that the Government are committed to England’s public forest estate and national parks remaining secure in public ownership for the people who enjoy them and the businesses that depend on them. The measure that we discussed for the HCA is about transferring surplus land from government agencies. The public forest estate and our national parks are in use; they are therefore not surplus and none will therefore be transferred to the Homes and Communities Agency. This measure does not apply to them.

[Lord Judd]

I am very grateful to the Minister for taking up the issue of national parks, but I point out that although she has covered one important aspect, she has not covered the aspect of the responsibility of government and government departments to respect and enhance the purposes for which the parks exist.

[Baroness Kramer]

I think at this stage I have to say that I will write to respond to questions. I apologise that I have used slightly more than the 20 minutes I am allowed but I very much appreciate the debate that has taken place.

Drones: Code of Conduct

Lord Judd Excerpts

Tuesday 25th June 2013 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Judd]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress they have made in preparing a code of conduct for the civilian and military use of drones operating from the United Kingdom; and what negotiations they advocate for an international code.

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a trustee of Saferworld, which has an active involvement in security issues, and as a member of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Human Rights, whose staff and resources have been immensely helpful in preparing for this debate. I am also grateful to Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, UNA and others, including various academics, for the material they have sent me. Our own Library in the Lords has, as usual, been a model of relevant information.

There have been a number of exchanges on these issues in both Houses recently, not least the exchange between the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, and the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, on 7 February, and more recently the illuminating and well informed Adjournment debate in the other place introduced by Nia Griffith and constructively answered by Alistair Burt on behalf of the Government.

Drones—unmanned aerial vehicles—are either piloted by remote control from another location or follow a pre-programmed flight path. They have a wide range of military and non-military uses, including: surveillance and reconnaissance; disaster relief and search and rescue; anti-poaching operations; destruction of enemy installations and killing of enemy forces; and counterterrorism and counterinsurgency. More than 70 nations are involved in the use or production of drones, including the USA, the UK, Israel, South Africa, Saudi Arabia, China, India, Brazil and Turkey.

The potential of drone development for civilian purposes is considerable and will increasingly involve the CAA but it will also raise many other issues of much wider significance, not least industrial and commercial espionage and yet more intrusion on privacy and human rights. The development of autonomous robotics, which enables vehicles, once activated, to operate without further interventions by a human operator, will accentuate the challenges to be faced, as will the complex relationship between security and liberty.

In the military sphere, lethal autonomous robotics with the ability, once programmed, to select and decide to engage targets without intervention by an operator and to fight after communications have been jammed will, as Nia Griffith said in the other place, represent a “revolution” in weapons technology, with huge command and control, legal, ethical and accountability implications. Electromagnetic pulse attacks and cyberattacks accentuate all this and some experts predict that relatively soon vehicles could be as small as insects.

This is a nightmare scenario. Surely it cannot be a matter of just passively waiting for the forthcoming report by Ben Emmerson, the UN special rapporteur on counterterrorism and human rights. Government and shadow government should already be actively engaged in thinking through what is overtaking us and leading international analysis on what urgent action is imperative before the horse has bolted and we lose control—if, indeed, the horse has not already bolted. I hope that the Minister and my Front-Bench colleague will be able to reassure us about this.

The US is the most prolific user of armed UAVs, mainly in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Yemen. It is estimated that under President Bush there were more than 50 strikes and that more than 400 strikes were authorised during President Obama’s first term. The UK seems now to have 500 drones and the RAF is believed to have launched at least 365 strikes in Afghanistan since May 2008. There are reports that the RAF aims to have a third of its aircraft remotely controlled by 2030.

A new generation of more powerful UAVs is contemplated, with all the familiar procurement dangers of obsolescence before availability. The UK’s rules for engagement are still far from clear, particularly as they affect civilians and those not directly participating in hostilities. However, it is known that civilians have been killed. Has the UK itself conducted any targeted killings? Does the UK use the International Committee of the Red Cross’s definitions of combatants and civilians? I hope that the Minister can convince us that lines of accountability are in place for the UK’s use of drones when engaged in joint operations with the US.

The perceived advantages of armed drones are that they can attack targets accurately, quickly and stealthily while reducing the danger to pilots, civilians and troops who might otherwise have to be deployed. The perceived disadvantages are counterproductivity, including the alienation of populations where they are used, civilian deaths and injuries that play into the hands of the extremists and provoke recruitment to their cause.

It is difficult to see how the use of drones improves governance in a nation that offers a haven for terrorists, or strengthens local administration, or encourages dialogue with tribal leaders, or improves the training and reliability of the local armed forces and police services to whom it is planned to hand over increasing responsibility. In this respect, the total counterproductivity of so-called double tap strikes, where rescuers going to aid those hit by the first blast are attacked by a follow-up strike, cannot be overestimated. Indeed, such action may well constitute a war crime.

The increased use of drones by the United States has doubtless been influenced by growing public pressure to keep down troop losses and costs and a perceived need to deal covertly with the disparate core of the al-Qaeda network in Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia where there is no internationally recognised conflict, thus enabling the intelligence agencies rather than the military to operate the drones. Another factor is the international and domestic criticism of secret detention, rendition and Guantanamo. Killing has become a more attractive proposition than making captures, but where does that leave the rule of law, about which the world is so repeatedly lectured? Where does it leave the credibility of the alliance? Where does it leave the society which all this is supposed to defend? Surely either we uphold the rule of law or we do not. To circumvent it is as hypocritical and wrong as it is counterproductive. I trust that the Minister will confirm that this is the unequivocal position of the Government.

I note that the US Government are to shift drone operations from the CIA to the military, but if in effect this is to the Joint Special Operations Command, one of the very least transparent elements in the military, will there really be improved accountability? Meanwhile, the CIA will remain in control in Pakistan, with any shift to the military deferred to 2014. However, there is now at least some evidence of a significant decrease in drone activity in Pakistan.

Much recent debate in the US has centred on the legitimacy of target killings and signature strikes. In that debate, drones have been described as, “remote-controlled assassination devices”. A signature strike is when an operator identifies some combination of traits—the signature—that makes it acceptable to engage a target. However, it has been strongly argued within the US itself that no US President should have the sole power of life and death over civilians, whether US citizens or not, and that although the US can target al-Qaeda suspects who are claimed to be beyond the reach of the law on the basis of what they describe as legitimate self-defence, that power must be subject to judicial and congressional oversight. In response to the debate, President Obama has recently announced new policy guidance. This limits drone attacks to targets who are,

“senior operational leaders of a terrorist group who pose an imminent threat to Americans and cannot feasibly be captured”.

“Imminent” could be argued to be an improvement on what was used before—“significant”, but it is still disturbingly wide. Nevertheless, the President has said that he is to discuss with Congress at least some monitoring of the Administration’s decision-making.

I have concentrated my brief remarks today on the military dimension of drones, but the civilian dimension is acutely pressing as well. Safety, security, rational efficiency and sanity are all at stake. Domestic and international action is urgently required. We have done it on aviation law and we have led on it with the arms trade, mines, cluster bombs, chemical and biological warfare, and many aspects of nuclear activity. I argue that we need to do it again because it is my conviction that to continue drifting towards total loss of control is as unforgivable as it will be disastrous.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I start by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Judd, for securing this evening’s debate and other noble Lords for their contribution. Your Lordships will note that the question is about civilian as well as military use of these aircraft and the House will be aware that I answer for all of Her Majesty’s Government. I share the regret of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, about the number of speakers and am grateful for his very measured contribution to our debate.

First, we should understand that we are talking about remotely piloted aircraft systems, or RPAS. We are most certainly not talking about “drones” as exemplified by the “doodle bugs” of the World War II era. The location of the cockpit does not change the essential function of a professional, qualified pilot in terms of his or her direct responsibility for the safety and overall management of a flight. I do not foresee a situation where a human’s ultimate responsibility for the safe flight of a remotely piloted aircraft will be replaced by fully autonomous technologies.

I will follow the split of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and cover civilian RPAS operations first. These are closely regulated by the Civil Aviation Authority and are treated in the same manner as that of an equivalent manned aircraft. This applies to all aspects of unmanned aviation, from the initial design and construction, or airworthiness, through to the safety requirements of how it is flown and operated. This viewpoint is shared internationally. We certainly have no intention of denying access to UK airspace—we just want to keep it safe.

Small unmanned aircraft are those under 20 kilograms weight, flown at short range and always within the sight of the person flying them. These are overseen to a lesser, but proportionate, extent by the CAA but, in certain circumstances, such as for commercial use, a permission is needed. They are also subject to the Data Protection Act and the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act. The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, talked about intrusion. He will be aware that the activities of Google also cause similar concerns and that this concern is not unique to RPAS.

The House should not overlook the technological importance of the growth of the remotely piloted aircraft sector. For example, systems which can be used to detect other aircraft could, in time, greatly assist all pilots, in the same way that aircraft transponders have contributed to safety across the sector. I would point out that the UK’s ASTRAEA consortium is at the forefront of international efforts in this field. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, told the House about a wide range of uses including anti-poaching operations. Noble Lords will have read the article in this week’s Sunday Times about the use of RPAS to assess the health of a vineyard in France—a very commendable use, I would suggest. Surely, this is the start of yet another technical revolution facilitated by the ubiquitous modern electronics. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, is right of course when he says that the potential for their development is considerable.

The overall objective of the Government and the European Commission is to enable the full and safe integration of remotely piloted aircraft into the total aviation system so that they share the same airspace as their manned counterparts. With UK and EU input, the International Civil Aviation Organization is currently developing RPA guidance material, due for publication in autumn 2014, with standards expected about two years later. Within Europe, the Commission’s RPAS roadmap, published on Thursday 20 June 2013, is aimed at an incremental integration of RPAS into European airspace from 2016. To achieve this, there are a number of significant technical challenges to be overcome, primarily concerned with ensuring the RPAS is airworthy and has the capability to avoid collisions. However, until the technological and regulatory hurdles can be safely overcome, operations of larger remotely piloted aircraft will continue to be restricted to segregated airspace. For these reasons, therefore, my view is that there is already a suitable framework in place to regulate the operation of civilian remotely piloted aircraft and that no additional codes of conduct are required.

I now turn to the military element, which I suspect is of more concern to the House. Although the MoD operates a number of unmanned aircraft systems, Reaper is the UK’s only armed remotely piloted aircraft system and its only operational use is in support of UK and coalition ground forces in Afghanistan. Although predominantly used for intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance tasks, the aircraft is also armed with precision-guided weapons, which offer an attack capability if needed by ground commanders. The system is operated by highly trained, skilled and qualified RAF pilots in accordance with the principles of international humanitarian law and the UK’s rules of engagement, which are identical to those used by crews of manned combat aircraft. That applies even for joint operations with US forces.

The UK’s selection and prosecution of all targets is based on rigorous scrutiny. Targets are always positively identified as legitimate military objectives and every effort is made to ensure that harm to civilians or damage to civilian property is minimised. The Government have a longstanding policy of not divulging the detail of our rules of engagement; that would give our adversaries useful information about how and when we might choose to use lethal force. I also gently remind the House that the pilots operate under military discipline. Similarly, the RAF has well established command, control and supervisory frameworks that I have seen on exercise. I do not believe that anything extra needs to be provided for.

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, suggested that the UK military has 500 RPAS. However, there are currently only five armed RPAS. Of course, rather smaller RPAS are used for tactical surveillance. The use of remotely piloted aircraft systems is no different from other airborne or indeed ground-based attack systems. The only difference from a traditional aircraft is that their cockpits are on the ground. The systems can only launch their weapons when specifically commanded to do so by the pilot. They do not have the capability to launch any weapons autonomously. In addition, there are no future plans to replace military pilots with fully autonomous systems. I know that that is a matter of great concern to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, and the whole House. The MoD has no intention of developing any weapons systems to be used without human involvement. Although the Royal Navy has defensive systems such as Phalanx that can be used in an automatic mode, to protect personnel and ships from enemy threats like missiles, a human operator oversees the entire engagement. Furthermore, all our remotely piloted aircraft systems used in Afghanistan to protect troops on the ground are controlled by highly trained military pilots. There are no plans to replace skilled military personnel with fully autonomous systems.

[Lord Judd]

I am extremely grateful to the Minister for this reply. Could he clarify what is meant by “no intention” to deploy these vehicles other than with human involvement? What does human involvement amount to? How much automatic action in terms of analysis, identifying a target and deciding to hit it will be left to the device in future vehicles once they are launched?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the answer is currently none. It requires human involvement to launch the missile at the target. RPAS cannot currently engage a target without being commanded to do so by the pilot on the ground.

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, implied that communication with and control of an RPAS could be lost in the event of an electromagnetic pulse. If that was the case, the RPAS would probably lose all its capability, just like any other aircraft.

The noble Lord touched on the perceived disadvantages of the military use of RPAS. As of 20 June, the UK Reaper RPAS has employed 394 precision-guided weapons. There has been only one known incident that resulted in the deaths of civilians. On 25 March 2011, an attack on two pick-up trucks resulted in the destruction of a significant quantity of explosives and the deaths of two insurgents but, sadly, four Afghanistan civilians were also killed. In line with current ISAF procedures, an ISAF investigation was conducted to establish if any lessons could be learned or if any errors in operational procedures could be identified. In that case, the report concluded that the actions of the Reaper crew had been in accordance with extant procedures and rules of engagement.

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, asked if the UK had conducted any targeted killings and whether the UK uses the ICRC definitions of combatants and civilians. Her Majesty’s Armed Forces will engage the enemy in accordance with international humanitarian law and the UK rules of engagement. The necessity and legality of engaging the target does not depend on the means of doing so. The noble Lord stated that we either uphold the rule of law or we do not. He is right. I can confirm that Her Majesty’s Government uphold the rule of law. How the US Government conduct themselves is not a matter for me to comment on and I have already touched on joint US/UK operations.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, talked about the remote warrior. Our experience of operating the Reaper remotely piloted aircraft system in Afghanistan suggests that Reaper aircrew are just as if not more connected to the situation on the ground when compared to operators of other aircraft types. That is because they fly missions over Afghanistan for years at a time and not in short-duration rotations. Remotely piloted aircraft can loiter over areas of interest for a considerable time, providing that much-valued intelligence picture. I remind the House that surveillance is their primary role. Should an attack be requested, their persistence enables them to assess a target in detail and select an optimum time for attack that minimises the risk of civilian casualties. Indeed, because of this increased awareness of the ground situation, enabled by the connectivity that a ground-based cockpit offers, there have been many occasions when crews have elected not to fire a weapon.

I will say a few words about the ASTRAEA project. ASTRAEA—Autonomous Systems Technology Related Airborne Evaluation and Assessment—is a UK industry-led consortium focusing on the development of technologies, systems and procedures with a specific emphasis on unmanned aircraft systems. The consortium is led by seven UK companies—AOS, BAE Systems, Cassidian, Cobham, Qinetiq, Rolls-Royce and Thales—plus a further 70 SMEs and universities. The aim of the programme is to enable the routine use of UAS in all classes of airspace without the need for restrictive or specialised conditions of operation. The £62 million programme was split into two phases, each lasting three years. Phase 2 ended on 31 March 2013. Some 50% of the funding came from industry partners, with the remainder from government—the TSB and the regions. Future activity under the ASTRAEA brand is the subject of ongoing discussion within the consortium.

I welcome this debate, which has explored the application and use of remotely piloted aircraft. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, is right to question the implications of any new and growing technology such as this. To reiterate: RPAS are aircraft under human control. The very clear regulations and guidance that apply to aircraft also apply to RPAS. I am confident that no further code of conduct is required.

Growth and Infrastructure Bill

Lord Judd Excerpts

Wednesday 27th February 2013 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Judd]

9: Clause 1, page 3, line 1, at end insert—
“(e) the National Parks Authorities; and(f) the Broads Authority.”

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, perhaps it is appropriate at this stage in our proceedings that I remind the House that I am a resident of a national park, a vice-president of the Campaign for National Parks and a patron of the Friends of the Lake District.

In Committee, my noble friend Lord Adonis very powerfully put on the record how well national parks had done in planning matters. Rereading what was said at that stage of our deliberations, it does not seem to me that the Government tried to refute the case that he put forward so convincingly. I am not altogether clear about what the rationale is for the specific exemptions listed in the Bill. Why these alone in the Bill? What is really the case for them? I hope that, in dealing with what I am about to say, the Minister may have an opportunity to leave the House wiser on this point.

If there are to be exemptions, I believe most strongly that the case of the national parks is outstanding. Why? Repeatedly since the parks were originally created in the post-war era, successive Governments of different persuasions have put on the record their determination that these parks are very special parts of the United Kingdom. To those who would say that this is an emotional argument and not a practical one, I would say—I made this point in Committee—that that is utter nonsense, because a healthy, effective nation needs space to regenerate physically and mentally and the parks make a direct contribution therefore to the well-being and operational efficiency of the nation.

We all want economic development—it would be hypocritical to pretend otherwise; I certainly want it—but these very special areas must be protected in the context of our commitment to still better economic performance, because they contribute to the well-being of society and help to underpin the whole nature of the society that we are trying to achieve our by our economic performance. Economic performance cannot become an end in itself; economic performance is so that we can have a decent United Kingdom, and these special areas are absolutely central to that.

It is important to recognise that we in both Houses of Parliament have had a very important role as guarantors of this reality. Since the national parks and the Broads were established, it has been recognised not only by government but by Parliament repeatedly that they are the most important areas for natural beauty and for the opportunities they provide for public understanding of their special qualities. The Government’s national parks circular of 2010 explains why it is important for national park authorities to retain a planning function in order to deliver these statutory functions. The Government’s National Planning Policy Framework restates that they are to be afforded the highest levels of protection and that major developments within or affecting a national park therefore need to be given very careful consideration.

Of course, a national park authority is highly likely to receive far fewer major applications for development than other planning authorities. A consequence of this is that the percentages for major applications determined within 26 weeks, and the percentage success rates on appeals—the criteria which are proposed by the Government for determining poorly performing authorities—can shift quite markedly from one year to another. The Government’s Planning Guarantee Monitoring Report, published in September last year, highlights that six national park authorities received three or fewer major applications in 2011-12 and that, of those, two received only one application. This surely demonstrates that the statistical problem of relying on percentages as far as they relate to national parks is a dangerous game. I recognise that the Government have issued a consultation paper that deliberates on the criteria they will use to determine poorly performing authorities. Although the period over which this is to be assessed seeks to address large variations from year to year, it is important to understand that this potentially raises very serious considerations for the parks.

Before I conclude I shall go over the basic statistical realities again. Leaving to one side the South Downs National Park, which was designated during the year in question, in the year ending 2012, the eight national park authorities and the Broads Authority received 5,000 planning applications. They granted approval for 89% of applications, which is higher than the English average of 87%. They received 53 applications for major development, of which 91% were granted approval. For major development, national park authorities compare favourably with other local planning authorities for speed of determination. They approved 60% of applications within 13 weeks, compared with the English average of 57%. It is absolutely clear to me—and I would have thought to everybody—that the national park authorities have a good track record in planning performance and a number are, for example, part of the Government’s front runner programme for promoting neighbourhood planning. If there are to be exemptions, I urge the Minister to look seriously at whether, even at the final stages of consideration of the Bill, she could include the national park authorities alongside the other designated authorities, although, as has been said, it would helpful if we could have a bit more information on the overall rationale for the authorities mentioned in the Bill.

This is an important issue. It is important to keep the factual side under consideration all the time. However, I am not ashamed to say that it would be very easy to introduce a new culture in which the parks have to justify their existence rather than anyone who wants to undermine their special character having to justify why they are doing that. When we introduce legislation of this kind, it is crucial to remember that we are dealing not only with the Ministers of the day. I am convinced that the Ministers of the day are quite civilised on these issues. They have a very enlightened approach. They want to help, I think, in many ways. That is encouraging, but they might not always be there. Another Minister coming along could very easily see this as the thin end of the wedge and that the door was being pushed open, opening up all sorts of new opportunities which could very easily lead to the complete destruction of the special nature of the parks. I beg to move.

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, I hope very much that my noble friend will resist this proposition. It seems to me to be really unacceptable. If it is necessary to have a fallback power for circumstances in which it is necessary to take to the centre decisions that would otherwise be done locally, I find it very difficult to understand why the national parks should be excluded.

There are two reasons for that. First, it says something about everybody else. It says that those people are perfectly safe, but the other people have to be subject to this rule. Speaking on behalf of everybody else, I do not think that that is a very good argument. Secondly, I was Secretary of State responsible for these matters, and I can think of one national park which ought to have been under this rule for quite some time, because its planning attitudes at the time were utterly indefensible. It is no good saying that they are always perfect. If what the noble Lord, Lord Judd, says, is true—I am sure that it is—and the national parks have a remarkable record over recent years because of the fantastic speed with which they deal with plans, nobody will do that to them. If the record is as good as that, they will be the last people to be subject to this.

I have to say to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, that I find it difficult to believe in the infallibility of the national parks. Indeed, I have good reason to believe that we have made a huge mistake in making the South Downs a national park. I have opposed that all my life; I still think that it has been a disaster; it is not what should have been done and it has alienated local authorities in areas where it would be much better for them to have worked as they had worked before. I think that the same is true of the New Forest. That was an historic, political decision to do with the 1930s rather than anything to do with the 2000s, but there we are: we have done it. It has not been as damaging as it might have been, but it was not sensible.

National parks do a wonderful job. They are a fantastically important part of our structure. I think I have a long enough record of defending the countryside and working for country people and the nature of the British rural society not to be maligned by the suggestion that in some way I have a wicked desire to concrete over the countryside. Indeed, I have been pretty critical of the Government’s proposals on the basis that I do not think that it is necessary to build on greenfield sites. I happen to think that we can build all the housing we need on brownfield sites. It is an easy way out for developers to build on greenfield sites. They must be forced to build on brownfield sites because otherwise all they will do is build on greenfield sites and then wait until they have more greenfield sites. That was my experience from four years as Secretary of State. I hope that no one will criticise me for that.

If we are to have the clause—I have shown myself to be not altogether happy about the need for it—it must cover national parks and the Broads Authority like everybody else. It is hemmed around with all the Minister’s careful comments—she has been very clear that it would not be used except in certain extreme and specific circumstances. She has laid down some new mechanisms by which we can receive greater comfort about it. I still wonder in my heart whether it is utterly necessary, but, having done all that, it would be preposterous to leave the national parks out. It would be extremely rude to some other excellent local authorities, which will never be affected by the regulations because they, too, do the job as well as a national park.

I hope that my noble friend will resist this elegant, polite, romantic proposal, which the House should not support.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their interesting interventions on this interesting amendment, which we discussed in Committee. I am not going to endear myself to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, by saying that my answer now is the same as it was then. My noble friend Lord Deben said that he can see no reason for excluding national parks from designation just because they are national parks; nor can we. That also applies to the Broads Authority. The reason for keeping them included is that they are planning authorities. If they perform wonderfully and at a standard that I think the noble Lord said they would, this registration will not matter to them at all. It would completely leave them out to carry on doing what they are doing so beautifully. There might be authorities which fall into this category only if, as my noble friend Lord Deben suggested, they do not perform to the designated standard. They would then become involved.

It is important that national parks are served by an effective planning service. That applies just as much to them as to any other area. They are asked from time to time to put in major developments—we call them major if they are of 10 houses or more—and it is absolutely essential that there is within those areas a planning authority that understands what it is doing and makes those decisions carefully. There are some national parks that deal with a relatively small number of major applications, but some do not. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, cited figures, some of which would, I think, fall below the major applications category. I understand that the Lake District made decisions on 31 major applications in the past two financial years, while the New Forest dealt with 23 and the Broads Authority with 18. For those authorities, those are not inconsiderable numbers.

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, asked why national parks and the Broads Authority should not be included among others which had not been designated, such as the Mayor of London and the development corporations. However, these are by and large not normal planning authorities. Certainly, the development corporations get involved to deal with only very big or complex proposals and do not deal on a day-to-day basis with some of the smaller ones.

It is true that other national parks deal with fewer major applications, but the two-year assessment period that we have proposed is designed to even out some of the fluctuations. It is also important to remember that these authorities will be able to enter into planning performance agreements or agree an extension of time where there are issues that will take additional time to resolve, which may be germane only to their particular type of application. There should be no worries that if a national park or the Broads Authority were to be designated, that would result in decisions that pay less regard to their special qualities. If, in these circumstances, an application for major development were to be made to the Secretary of State, the decision would have to be in accordance with the same statutory principles that apply to the designated authority. Indeed, I expect that they would also be able to access the help of the Local Government Association.

In other words, there would be the same legal obligation to make decisions in accordance with the development plan, unless there are material considerations that indicate otherwise. The Secretary of State will also be under a statutory duty to have regard to the purposes for which the national park has been designated in making such decisions. I listened carefully to the noble Lord, Lord Liddle. I am enchanted by the fact that the national parks have such good people, but that is not what this is about. If they have really good people they are making really good decisions, so they are not in any jeopardy of being designated.

I will resist the amendment and hope noble Lords will understand that, as recognised planning authorities, neither the national parks authorities nor the Broads Authority should be exempt. The communities and businesses in their areas deserve the same standards of service on planning as the rest of the country. I hope the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for the characteristically friendly candour with which she has replied. I am sorry that she has replied in the way that she has at this stage; it is rather disappointing. She referred to the complexity of the issues facing the bodies that appear in the Bill. However, I would argue that what faces a national park authority is every bit as complex, every bit as difficult and sensitive, as what faces these authorities. They are in a very special category in that context because of these wider issues of the inheritance, the special role of the parks and all the rest. Her argument about complexity strengthens the case for the park authorities being in the Bill.

I must say a word about the contribution by the noble Lord, Lord Deben. I take second place to no one in my admiration for the tremendous contribution he has made on a lot of green issues in this country. I really do regard him with some awe for the way he has stood up on a number of issues. This makes it doubly disappointing that he said what he said. Why? First, it is not the first time I have heard, almost word for word, that particular contribution by the noble Lord, Lord Deben, on national parks. I do not suppose it is the last time we will hear it, either. He clearly once had a very bad night with some of the national parks. I am not quite sure what this bad night was and I would value him putting the story straight with me in the bar one night.

I am sorry if he was left wounded for life, but if he is raising the issue that I am falling back on a generic argument when there are specific examples, why does his argument not apply to the Homes and Communities Agency? Why does it not apply to the Mayor of London or to a mayoral development corporation? Why does it not apply to an urban development corporation? Is he really saying there will not be variations there, or moments of good performance at some times and not such good performance at others? I do not understand the logic of his position. If you accept that there will always be variations but that, notwithstanding those, there are some that have such great responsibilities and complex—to use the Minister’s word again—issues to deal with that they have to be in the Bill, then these unique and special parts of our national parks’ life really should be there alongside the others. Not to include them is to demean them.

If it were not for people who refuse to take no for an answer—those right across the political divide in the 1930s and 1940s who kept going with their arguments, belief and purpose in establishing the parks—we would never have had them. I do not give up. I believe in the power of reason, the power of reflection, the power of decency and the civilised values that I know the Minister shares. If I am to withdraw the amendment at this stage, it is in the real hope—not just as a debating formality—that she will go away with her colleagues, look seriously at this issue again and see if there is some way she can bring meaningful reassurances to this House at Third Reading. In the mean time, on that basis, and in thanking those who have spoken to this amendment, not least my own Front Bench, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment 9 withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, I hope that my noble friend will stand firm. If legislation is important and necessary, it seems to me a first principle that it is important to get it as right, sound and well drafted as possible. I honestly believe that there is room for reflection on how this clause has been drafted. It is full of lurches in administration which are not logically followed through and which introduce contradictions between what is recognised and put on the face of the Bill, and what is not put on the face of the Bill. That is one area of concern.

A much deeper area of concern is the contradictions which this Bill epitomises between the legislation of the Government and their aspirations as put to the people in the general election and at other times. The whole thesis of the Conservative position was that power should be nearer people; that the bodies nearer people should have more authority than they had before; and that there should be distribution of power. Phrases such as “Trust the people” are ringing in my ears. This clause is very central to that.

However, we are moving into an age in which you do not say that ultimately the state has responsibility in a whole range of administration—of course it does —or that we therefore want to enhance and improve the local standards of democracy and the local and more regional ways in which planning and the rest are working. We are moving into an age where the state may say, “We concede that you may be able to get on with the job administratively here but please understand that the real power lies at the centre, and at any point we can intervene and call into the centre the responsibility for what is being done”. How does that add up in terms of the message that was being put to the British people about the belief in the people and the rejection of the concept of overcentralised government? There is a contradiction here. Therefore, I believe that my noble friend was absolutely right to propose the deletion of this clause. I warmly applaud and support him.

Growth and Infrastructure Bill

Lord Judd Excerpts

Wednesday 30th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, I am very glad to be able to warmly support the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, for the proposition that the clause should be removed. The more I look at this legislation and hear the discussions around it, the more I wonder whether on Report it will not be necessary to return to the very first clause of the Bill. For something which is crucial to the well-being of the nation, it is interesting to see the list of specific organisations that are exempted from these positions, and to see that this totally ignores the national parks authorities. It seems to me quite extraordinary. Many of them are bodies related to urban matters, but not to these qualitative matters for the nation as a whole.

I have to declare an interest. I am a vice-president of the Campaign for National Parks, and I do live within a national park. I am very glad to have broadband and want it to be as good as possible. It is no good causing any confusion over that; most of us who live in national parks want broadband.

The issue is about what is and what is not necessary, and about how it should be done. We have moved a long way; less than a year ago in the National Planning Policy Framework, the Government said this:

“Great weight should be given to conserving landscape and scenic beauty in National Parks, the Broads and Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty, which have the highest status of protection in relation to landscape and scenic beauty. The conservation of wildlife and cultural heritage are important considerations in all these areas, and should be given great weight in National Parks and the Broads”.

That was a fine statement; I could not question it. It was a good, reinforcing statement about the importance of the parks. It is necessary—as the noble Baroness did—to stress how essential the parks have been seen to be since that period immediately after the Second World War. In that period there was, in the best democratic tradition, a lot of controversy, but about some things there was a lot of qualitative cross-party consensus. We were interested in the kind of Britain we wanted; we wanted a qualitative as well as quantitative Britain. We saw the economy and the measures put in place for the operation of society not as an end in themselves, but as a means of underwriting and strengthening the kind of society we wanted. With all the pressures that operate in society, all the impersonal technological development and all the stress and strain that this puts upon people, we desperately need—if we are to be a healthy, effective, and prosperous nation—these special areas that provide total contrast with the hurly-burly of life outside. They are places for reflection, for physical engagement with nature and its surroundings, and have the ability to raise the spirits by the beauty and culture of what is there. That is crucial to the psychological well-being of the nation.

I was saddened but not altogether surprised the other day when I heard that there was a rather acute discussion going on—I have to say, this was about the area in which I live; it was about the future of nuclear waste disposal. An official of some significance within the area of energy said, “Of course, we have to remember that we are concerned about the practicalities of what is important for the nation. The arguments about national parks are emotional”. Of course, there is a great deal of emotion about the national parks and what they mean to the nation. It would be a sad place to be if that emotion did not exist.

I suggest that that official, and all those involved, should take on board that this is actually a debate about quantity versus quality and how to get the kind of society you want. It is about ensuring that quantitative considerations are of course taken immensely seriously and driven forward with all possible vigour—the survival of the nation depends on this—but that we are absolutely determined to preserve the qualitative elements that make the nation a good place to live and which play into the health and well-being of the workforce, if that is how we are to look at people, and those who service the economic machine.

This part of the Bill raises very serious issues. It is rather sad when in situations of this kind, acute as they are, Ministers or others can get up and say, for example in the context of committee work, “Well, we have published a consultation paper”, when of course the consultation paper was published yesterday. That really does not give very much time for people to consult with those of us who have the privilege of being able to speak in Parliament about the issues.

I have taken the opportunity of having some telephone conversations in order to discuss some of the immediate reactions to the situation. I hope the Committee will bear with me if I refer to those briefly. The first thing that becomes very clear in the consultation paper is that the Government intend to press ahead with the changes set out in the Bill. Indeed, they are resolute in wanting to do that. Well, we take that position seriously. It is important to consider why it is so fundamentally important to press ahead before the outcome of the consultations has become clear. Of course, a Government who are sensitive and open to persuasion would want to take those consultations into account before they decided they were going to press ahead at all costs.

Paragraph 1.7 of the consultation paper refers to the establishment of a code to support best practice. It is interesting to note that to date DCMS has not sought any input on this from the English National Park Authorities Association. Although a number of organisations have been charged with the preparation of the code, the ENPAA, Defra, Natural England and the National Association for Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty are not listed. Can the Minister give an assurance that the Government will actively be asking for the input of NPAs and AONBs?

Secondly, it is important to recognise that the code in no way addresses our main concern over the precedent that would be set by removal of the “have regard” duty in Clause 8. Paragraph 1.4 begins to create a division between different protected areas; for example, SSSIs are to continue to be protected, but national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty are not. Perhaps we could hear a bit more about why this is.

Paragraph 1.5 refers to providing greater planning certainty. It can be seen that the overwhelming majority of planning applications and prior notifications are approved. My noble friend Lord Adonis, who made a very powerful case for the points that I and all those who feel the same way are trying to make, drew attention to this point.

We are told that the measures will provide greater planning certainty, but, as my noble friend said, all the evidence is that there have been no difficulties in this area. Please establish what the difficulties are which are used in support of this draconian legislation. More than 90%—almost 100%—of applications are approved. They are approved with good will because there has been consultation, points have been taken on board, and modifications and constructive and sensible compromises have been made.

Paragraph 2.2 makes the case that undergrounding new lines is more expensive. So it seems, although I am not totally convinced about this; I am not sure that imagination has been exercised with as much drive when considering different methods of undergrounding as the Government are bringing to the Bill as a whole. This is sometimes a very emotional argument which is not altogether practically borne out with evidence—but I shall not advance that case at this moment. However, it would be useful to know what other options have been considered for reducing the costs of digging before going to the option of weakening the protection of national parks.

Paragraph 2.16 refers to the prior notification process relating to cabinets. As I understand it, the park authorities would be happy to work with operators to assess locations for cabinets more strategically, one by one. There may even be a willingness to review the 56-day limit for this, but I have no authority to say that; I just have the impression that they might be open to discussion.

Paragraph 3.5 seeks to reassure that changes will be used only for broadband and not mobile masts. The explanation given is fair enough, but there would not appear to be anything to stop this or to stop future Governments using the changes for masts of other kinds. Indeed, EU rules prevent the Government giving such technology-specific assurances even if they wanted to.

The consultation makes no reference to wider concerns expressed about the precedent that risks being set for other policy areas. That is crucial; it is the thin end of the wedge. Everybody has realised up till now that, with all the pressures that operate on society—with which the national parks and the areas of outstanding should be a contrast—it is important to have very firm and unquestionable protection of their special and unique status. Once you break that, where is it going to end? One argument leads to the next and, before you know it, you have ended up with a home county. There are many very delightful Home Counties, but they certainly cannot provide what national parks and areas of outstanding beauty provide for the nation.

This is a very dangerous clause. It is also a very sad clause, because it is another spur to the altogether-too-evident trend in our society towards knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing. It is a society that has lost its values. It has lost its sense of aesthetic priority, which makes for a civilised society. I want Governments of every persuasion to stand by the principle that we all want to live in a civilised Britain. I do not believe that the Bill will help in that respect.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, I put my name to these amendments for very much the reasons put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. Clause 8 is really not necessary. I declare an interest as president of the Suffolk Preservation Society. I have some experience in this area, because I did 12 years on the Countryside Commission, under the distinguished chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Barber of Tewkesbury, and was lucky enough to get to know the national parks very well during that time. In eight of those years, I was also on the Rural Development Commission under the chairmanship of my noble friend Lord Vinson. One saw then the importance and possibility of combining the conservation and protection of our finest countryside with economic development, which the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, so rightly pointed out.

I have always regarded the planning system and, with it, the creation of the national parks, as one of the two great venerable icons of the Attlee Government—the other, of course, being the National Health Service. Over the years, it has worked extremely well. I have seen at close quarters how it works. Of course, it is necessary to have new technologies, and indeed they are to be welcomed. Indeed, the broadband technologies, which make new forms of economic enterprise possible in remote areas is one of the least intrusive.

There has been a lot of talk about undergrounding, and I have a bit of experience of that, too. I am very keen on undergrounding. For some years, I was a non-executive director of the Eastern Electricity Board, both before it was privatised and for a while afterwards, when it was taken over by Hanson. I persuaded my co-directors to start a scheme for undergrounding wires in designated areas, which worked extremely well. It is not wildly expensive. Of course, the 440 kilovolt pylons are hugely expensive to underground, but the network of wirescaping, which can so badly damage a landscape, is remarkably inexpensive to underground. We did it in some 30 designated conservation areas on the heritage coast. The first one was in my own village, and I was attacked by Paul Foot in Private Eye, on the grounds that I lived in the village, because I had banged on about it for about five years before they did it. But it is a perfectly good scheme to do things such as undergrounding. All this can be done very well under the existing arrangements. Broadband can and will come, and it is crucial that it should do so. However, absolutely no reason that I have heard of or read about justifies the necessity for introducing Clause 8 to give special treatment to broadband.

I do not believe that we should for one instant consider damaging the unique quality and status of these most precious landscapes by weakening control over them. I believe it is unlikely that this Government would seek to do so, but if they were to do so, it is most unlikely that your Lordships’ House would agree to it.

[Lord Judd]

The noble Lord referred to world heritage. I am sure he will be aware that the Lake District, where I live, is seeking world heritage site status. This will have immense significance for the British economy and for attracting visitors and tourists. Will this process be helped or hindered by these unnecessary provisions in the Bill?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, as I understand it, the rules in conservation areas are not to be changed.

Under the measures on which we are consulting, local authorities will still be involved and will have more of an opportunity to put forward their views on the siting of poles and boxes, and on their appearance. The existing regulations require, and will continue to require, consultation with local authorities. In addition, providers will work to a new code of best practice on the siting of infrastructure. This will contain an agreed set of overall principles on sensitive siting, together with specific requirements for consultation with local communities about new overhead line deployment. My noble friend Lord King asked whether these measures were related to fixed broadband. As I said in my Second Reading speech, these measures cover fixed broadband—poles and boxes.

We will outline the main principles of the code of practice by Report, and the code will be agreed before changes are brought into effect by regulations. We expect broadband operators to adhere to the code that they will be involved in drawing up. We believe that the sector should have responsibility for its own code. I can confirm that the English National Park Authorities Association will be invited to join the group that is drafting the code of practice.

Importantly, local authorities will also be able to influence how new broadband services are deployed when procuring projects under the Broadband Delivery UK programme—including, for example, determining whether lines should be run overground or underground. As I said, the underground aspect is not being removed. This will be balanced against how much coverage can be provided.

I turn now to the specific amendments. I do not agree that there is a need to place conditions on the Clause 8 enabling power.

[Lord Judd]

Before the noble Baroness turns to the amendments, perhaps I may ask her a question. I have great respect for her as a person and a Minister; I know that she very much cares about the qualitative dimensions of British life. On reflection, would it not have been better for the Government to say, “Our objective is to have the most efficient possible economic performance in Britain. We will include the rural areas in this objective. We are determined to have the best possible facilities to service that economic activity. However, we not only want our broadband system to be the best in Europe, we want our areas of outstanding natural beauty, including the national parks, to be the best in the world”? The Government’s purpose is to find a policy that enables both objectives to be reconciled.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I remind noble Lords that we are in Committee. Noble Lords may speak as many times as they like, but it might be for the convenience of the Committee if we allow the Minister to respond initially to the amendments and then I am sure my noble friend will be delighted to take further questions.

[Lord Judd]

I assure the Committee that I will not repeat what I have already said, in spite of what we have just been advised is the best way forward.

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I am beginning to feel like a jack-in-the-box. I hope that I do not look like one, but I am beginning to feel like one. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, asked a philosophical if not a practical question. We are where we are. My job is the legislation before us. It is not to proffer a view on that. This is how the Government feel it is necessary to proceed in order to do precisely what the noble Lord said, which is to get broadband across the country as quickly as possible and in the best way possible. As I tried to say as I was going along, the only way that you can get broadband is through masts, lines and boxes, and somehow that has to be dealt with in the best way possible.

Turning to Amendments 59A and 59C, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, I do not think that there is a need to place conditions on the Clause 8 enabling power in the way that the noble Lord proposes, and I have referred to the existing consultation requirements in the regulations. That consultation must be considered before further action is taken. The relevant secondary legislation—the Electronic Communications Code (Conditions and Restrictions) Regulations 2003—already includes both general and specific statutory requirements for consultation with planning authorities. This will continue to be the case.

Communications providers will be required to notify local planning authorities about the equipment that they propose to install and where they propose to install it. The regulations will make it clear, as they do currently, that planning authorities will have an opportunity to influence the siting and appearance of that equipment and can put forward objections, as is currently the case. Communications providers will be required to make changes, if they are reasonable.

Communications providers are under a strong incentive to ensure that they follow the statutory requirements for consultation with local planning authorities. If they do not, this would be considered a breach of the permitted development rights under which they install their equipment and could lead to planning enforcement action.

The noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, called for the regulations to be subject to the affirmative procedure rather than the negative procedure as is currently the case. The requirements for consultation with local planning authorities that we propose to introduce for protected areas are not new. They are already well established and work well for non-designated areas. I am confident that they can work well in protected areas with the co-operation of communications providers and local planning authorities alike. At present, I do not see the need for the affirmative procedure. This is not new. It is not novel: it is how things have happened in the past.

The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, also proposed Amendment 59B. As I said at Second Reading, we are unable to draft legislation in such a way that is specific to broadband infrastructure. I explained then that this is because of Article 8(1) of the Framework Directive 2002/21/EC, which requires technology neutrality so far as the primary implementing legislation is concerned.

We can, though, be specific in secondary legislation. As I made clear at Second Reading and make clear again today, and as our consultation also makes clear, our proposed changes relate to broadband cabinets and overhead lines—in other words fixed broadband technology. As I said, that cannot be done in primary legislation. It will be done in secondary legislation.

The amendment also suggests that specifying consultation with local authorities on changes to secondary legislation is necessary. Consultation with local authority interests already happens under the existing provisions of the Communications Act 2003. Section 109(4) provides that before making regulations, the Secretary of State must consult Ofcom and any other persons as she considers appropriate. As I mentioned earlier, a large proportion of the existing regulations consists of the requirements for consultation with and notification to highway and planning authorities; this will not change, and of course we are now consulting on our proposed approach. The Local Government Association and others such as the national park authorities will want to make their views clear on the proposed planning changes.

My noble friend Lord Greaves has proposed Amendments 59D to 59H. These would remove what we believe are necessary subsections to ensure that other legislation relating to protected areas is amended so as to be consistent with the Secretary of State’s powers in Section 109 of the Communications Act. If we remove them, Clause 8 would not deliver the result the Government are seeking to achieve. It would also risk creating great uncertainty and inconsistency in the law. My noble friend Lady Parminter raised this with us at a meeting we held yesterday. We explained to her then that this was the way we had to deal with the matter legally, and although it may seem rather cumbersome, it is essential. I have heard nothing to change my mind since our discussion, but I did undertake that we would consider the reasons why. I also understand the intention of my noble friend Lord Greaves and I want to reassure him that the amended legislation will continue to make it explicit that the Secretary of State shall have regard to the need to conserve the natural beauty of the countryside when making regulations in relation to the Electronic Communications Code.

As with the relaxation of prior approval in protected areas for cabinets and poles, these subsections also only apply for a period of five years, which I hope gives some comfort to noble Lords. The provision of broadband to business and communities across the country is vital to ensure that we have growth. We want to see the economy grow right across the country.

I have spoken at some length regarding the existing and proposed consultation requirements that will be necessary through the secondary legislation that Clause 8 will enable. Perhaps I may go over those requirements again. Communications providers will still be required to consult with local authorities on the siting of infrastructure and to take on board any reasonable objections, which is the current situation. The proposed code of best practice for the siting of infrastructure will contain an agreed set of overall principles for siting, as well as specific arrangements for consultation with communities on new overhead wires. Local authorities will be able to influence how services are deployed in their area in consultation with their supplier when procuring under the Broadband Delivery UK programme. There is a great deal of scope for local authorities to influence what is going on, and it seems to me that broadband providers are going to find it much easier to get their work done if they co-operate and co-ordinate their activities with local authorities to ensure that between them there is a sensitive recognition of the environment.

As a side issue, I was asked about advertising on boxes, an issue that has been the cause of a lot of concern. Advertisements are not permitted unless specifically approved by the local authority. Permission has to be sought to do that. My noble friend Lady Parminter asked about the siting of equipment. A number of statutory requirements are set out in the Electronic Communications Code (Conditions and Restrictions) Regulations 2003 which are aimed at ensuring that the amount of electronic communications apparatus and its impact on visual amenity is kept to a minimum, and these provisions will remain unchanged. The relevant provisions are in the general conditions, under Regulations 3(1)(b), 3(3)(a) and 3(4). Regulation 3(1)(b) requires communications providers to,

“consult … planning authorities in relation to the installation of electronic communications apparatus, including installation in a local nature reserve”.

Under Regulation 3(3)(a), communications providers,

“when installing any electronic communications apparatus, shall, so far as reasonably practicable, minimise … the impact on the visual amenity of properties, in particular buildings on the statutory list of buildings”.

Under Regulation 3(4) they,

“where practicable, shall share the use of electronic communications apparatus”.

There is nothing in this legislation to change any of that.

I hope that I have dealt with more or less everything that has been said. If not, I am sure that somebody will remind me and ask me again. I hope, with those explanations, that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Judd]

The Minister said that she was willing to consult, which is encouraging. Can she say a little bit about the thinking that has gone on in government about any requirements for such installations to be removed as soon as advances in the technology make them superfluous?

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I am sure that that is worthy of an amendment on Report. I am sure that they will be expected to be removed, but I take the noble Lord’s point that sometimes these things are put up and are not then pulled down. However, it is not part of this legislation; I will find out whether consideration has been given to that; and I will find out what the precedents are, because we have got boxes all over the place for cables and all the rest of it, some of which are not used again.

[Lord Judd]

But it is highly relevant to this legislation, because that is a cost to be borne in mind when a company is making its decisions.

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I think that we will not take that any further.

Localism Bill

Lord Judd Excerpts

Wednesday 12th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, notwithstanding my noble friend’s strictures, I think that this is a daffy amendment due to its wording. How can development ever achieve a reduction in greenhouse gas emissions? Building a house emits greenhouse gases. The process of development necessarily involves the emission of greenhouse gases, and when you have created something at the end of that process, that continues to emit greenhouse gases, even if it emits far fewer than would have been emitted with a development done some years ago. Proposed new paragraph (b) at the end of the amendment would do great things for East Anglia. You would be allowed to build only off-shore windmills, waiting for the day when the place flooded.

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, my regard for the noble Lord, Lord Deben, and his commitment on climate change is second to no one. He has been one of the leading spokespeople, showing a good deal of courage on the importance of this issue. Because of my respect for him, I can say that I think that what he has just said in this debate illustrates a contradiction between what he said earlier on a previous amendment and his position here. On a previous amendment, he argued very strongly that he believed in a society in which people were not told what to do at a local level. He felt that there had to be co-operation and that one could only suggest what might be the responsibility of a local authority or the points that should be taken into account.

This issue illustrates a tension between national priorities and localism, to which there is no absolute answer. The Government may decide that in the interests of the survival of the British people it is necessary to have certain levels of activity in order to make our contribution on climate change. However, unless there are mechanisms for delivering those targets, they become part of the world of dreaming aspiration, as distinct from real, hard policy. I wish that in the deliberations on the Bill we were all more realistic that it will not be only on climate change but on quite a number of issues that we have to strike a balance between national priority and localism.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone]

My Lords, I underline what the noble Lord has just said, particularly in terms of the requirement to adapt to climate change. Noble Lords may remember that the Climate Change Act contained strong reporting requirements as regards authorities reporting the action they were taking and their readiness to adapt to climate change. However, those requirements were not laid on local authorities. They were laid on a huge range of other authorities, but local authorities were not required so to report because at that stage they had a performance indicator which established their readiness to adapt to climate change. However, that performance indicator has since been swept away along with all the other performance indicators for local authorities. If I am correct, we no longer have any mechanism at all to make local authorities accountable for adapting to climate change and demonstrating that they are so doing. Therefore, I very much welcome this amendment as it would at least give us hope that a requirement was being laid on local authorities to demonstrate that they were adapting to climate change.

Localism Bill

Lord Judd Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marlesford]

In case the House were to think that my noble friend was in a minority of one, I rise to support his amendment strongly. Frankly, the essence of the planning system is that planning decisions should be made on planning grounds. To attempt to distort those decisions is thoroughly undesirable and totally contrary to the whole basis of what was set up by the party of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, when it was in power in 1948. It was one of the great achievements of the Labour Government—the other being the health service. England would not be the country it is if it had not had that planning system.

My noble friend is talking particularly about wind farms, which is quite relevant because of the element of subsidy. However, very undesirable pressures have been put on planning authorities, for example, by supermarkets, which have proposed to build in quite inappropriate places and have threatened expensive public inquiries and local authorities with damages if they presume not to grant the application. My noble friend Lord Reay is absolutely on to the right idea. I strongly advise the Government to think very carefully before they distort the planning system in this sort of way.

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, I must intervene. I had not intended to do so because much the same ground will come up under some subsequent amendments to which I have put my name. However, I point out to my noble friend Lord Whitty, for whom I have great respect and who I regard as a particularly good personal friend, that there is an issue which comes up under a number of amendments.

What the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, has said is very telling. I am very proud of what the post-war Labour Government contributed to civilised values in this country through their planning arrangements and commitment to the countryside. I regard that as one of the most precious assets in the history of our party and do not want to see it lightly cast aside. What worries me about the implications of this part of the Bill, to which the noble Lord, Lord Reay, has moved his amendment, and, indeed of subsequent parts, is that all the implicit accumulated evidence, which is becoming increasingly explicit, shows that instead of a prejudice in planning in favour of our rich inheritance of countryside, scenery and the rest, the balance is changing to making economic considerations the priority. We need to get that balance right but I do not want to see the mistakes of the first Industrial Revolution repeated. Our countryside was raped in the first Industrial Revolution, but it could all have been done in a much more civilised way. Do we never learn? The noble Lord, Lord Reay, is absolutely right to be vigilant on this issue.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Reay]

My Lords, the present appeal system is unbalanced. Developers have an untrammelled right of appeal against the refusal of any planning application by a local planning authority. The appeal goes to a planning inspector—usually at a public inquiry—who hears the case as if for the first time. He can reverse the local planning authority’s decision on whatever grounds he chooses. Local communities, on the other hand, have no right of appeal. Once a planning permission is given by the local planning authority, that is the end of the story.

Prior to the general election, that was a situation that both the parties now in government recognised was unfair and promised to redress. Open Source Planning, which set out Conservative planning policy, promised to make the system symmetrical both by allowing appeals against local planning decisions from local residents—the broad purpose of the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter—and by limiting the grounds on which developers could appeal to, first, where the correct procedure had not been followed, whereby cases were to be dealt with by the Local Government Ombudsman, and, secondly, where the decision contravened the local plan. I believe that Liberal Democrat policies were similar.

Both those policies would have advanced the principle of localism; both have now been abandoned by the Government. The arguments they use are incoherent. In opposing the third-party right of appeal, the Minister said that he wanted fewer appeals to the Planning Inspectorate and more decided locally. In that case, why not limit the developer’s right of appeal?

Planning policy has been captured by the Treasury, which seems to believe that any balance in planning policy threatens economic growth, and the Treasury is no doubt being cheered on by the Department of Energy and Climate Change, desperate to carpet the country with its useless wind farms.

I wholeheartedly support the amendment of my noble friend Lady Parminter, which seeks to reintroduce a community right of appeal. Such a right of appeal must clearly be circumscribed in some way and, as she explained, the amendment limits those entitled to appeal to local ward councillors and local parish councils.

However, there is one condition that my noble friend has introduced which I question, and I have tabled Amendment 170CCA to remove it—namely, that an appeal can go forward only if the planning officer recommends refusal. In other words, only in cases where the local authority had granted a planning application against the recommendation of the planning officer would the community right of appeal come into play. For the community, everything would hinge on what the planning officer recommended. If the planning officer recommended acceptance, and the local authority endorsed that recommendation, then the community would have no right of appeal.

That seems to me to give too much power to the planning officer. I do not see why it is the unelected planning officer who will in effect be able to decide whether there is any right of appeal against the decision of the local planning authority. If my amendment, and that of my noble friend to which mine is an amendment, were adopted, the effect would be that, whatever the recommendation of the planning officer, the community would have a right of appeal against decisions of the local planning authority. That seems to me to be more democratic.

Amendment 170CF, the other amendment in my name, seeks to deal with the developers’ right of appeal. That was suggested to me by the CPRE. I do not feel committed to it in its present form; indeed, I can see that there are reasons why it might be preferable to have a simpler amendment that would require any appeal to be confined to where the original decision by the local planning authority had contravened the local plan. If the refusal of the local planning authority were in conformity with the local plan, the developer would have no right of appeal. That would put Conservative and perhaps also Liberal Democrat policy back to where it was before the election. It would also chime with what Ministers keep saying about their wish to make the local plan sovereign, as my noble friend has pointed out. Would the Minister be tempted by such an amendment?

On the other hand, if the Government were to persist in their refusal to allow a community right of appeal, and at the same time do nothing whatever to limit the current right of appeal of the developer, so allowing the present unlevel playing field to be maintained, they would have revealed their words about wishing to ensure that fewer decisions go to public inquiry to be much empty waffle. The intentions that they express to give primacy to local concerns would be exposed as insincere, sacrificed to the Treasury's false belief that this is the way to get economic growth going and to the lunacy of the Government’s climate change fanatics.

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Reay, is nothing if not challenging intellectually. I find myself very much in support of some of the issues which he raises in his amendment, but I do not support one of them. On one point, I strongly disagree with him. The profession of the planning officer is a very honourable and demanding one, and with all the subjective pressures which operate in society—sometimes very crudely with very considerable amounts of money and innuendo about possibilities and non-possibilities—it is very important to have the objectivity of a professional in the middle who can look at the law and at the overall social challenges and get matters right. It seems to me that, if a person has put his profession on the line and made a particular recommendation, that is very important in deciding whether an appeal is appropriate. I am afraid that on that issue I strongly disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Reay.

I certainly do not see my role in this House as helping to put the Conservative or Liberal Democrat policy back on course, but we have a responsibility to try to be objective and to see valid points that are made and, when they are made, to support them. In the middle of this, there are some very important and valid points. I referred to some of them in an intervention on a previous amendment. I am deeply concerned about the trend towards putting commercial economic interests above social, environmental and scenic issues. I strongly support anything that can be done to increase the well-being and dynamism of our economy—of course I want that—but my thinking does not totally coincide with that of the noble Lord, Lord Reay, as I also believe very strongly that wind power has a contribution to make. I put it to the noble Lord that if you have alternative energy, it will always be an aggregate of less dramatic quantities of energy than we have had from some of the methods with which we are familiar.

Therefore, I do not think it is an issue of being on the side of wind power or against it. I am very worried by those who turn anti-wind power positions into a kind of ideological cornerstone. The issue is where you put the wind farms; and the issue is how you take into account the social challenges and social needs, so that you do not end up with the least articulate members of society becoming the waste bin for all projects because everyone else has been able to fight them off. There is a huge social planning job to be done, but planning will succeed only if it carries the sympathy and understanding of the population as a whole. There is of course a great deal to take seriously in the Government’s position, about making democracy as meaningful and relevant as it possibly can be, and as near to the people as possible. Therefore, the position of the communities is crucially significant.

I believe that, if one looks at the Bill as a whole—not just on this issue, but on a lot of the issues that have been so painstakingly debated by colleagues in the course of the Bill—there is a very strange underlying paradox. The name of the Bill, and the cause of the Bill, is localism and enhancing local democracy; the effect of the Bill is an unprecedented concentration of central power. That has to be countered. It seems to me that from that standpoint the noble Lord is right. It is of course a great temptation to have increased authority for the Secretary of State at the centre, and all his civil servants working with him. If I was a civil servant with responsibilities in this area, I would get terribly vexed and frustrated at all this local democracy that was getting in the way of absolute logic; but if we are to have such increased authority at the centre, then it is very important that we make sure that there are firm rules about how that frustration is brought into play.

I think that the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Reay, does something helpful: it in a sense takes the whole theoretical purpose of the Bill, and says, “Right, if we really mean what we say here, we must have codes by which the Minister is operating in his decisions which override local wishes, and we must make sure that those are limited, and that they are clear, explicit, and understood”. As for the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, she is absolutely right: it is a charade, a nonsense and a provocation to talk about a Localism Bill and then deny the community the right to appeal. Of course the community should have that right.

I conclude by making one point again—and I know that the Minister, who has not himself been participating in this debate, has been very good on this issue, and very sympathetic and understanding, as have some of his colleagues. If we talk about the importance of generating a vigorous economy, and giving priority to the measures that are necessary to make our economy strong, why do we want this? It is because we want a decent, civilised place in which to live. We want to have a society worth living in, and such a society needs a strong economy underpinning it. That is the whole point about the issue of balance: how do we ensure that we have strong policies, but at the same time that they are not so unduly, at the price of the quality of the wider dimensions of our society? That is why I repeatedly come back to the point of how previous generations ruined the countryside unnecessarily: we can now see with hindsight that it could all have been done much better. I think that the noble Lord is right, again, to be vigilant on these issues, although I profoundly disagree with him on some of his observations. I hope that the Government will take seriously what he and the noble Baroness have been arguing in their amendments.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, we are fundamentally in listening mode on this issue. I would particularly like to listen to the Minister’s explanation as to why his party seems to have reversed its view on third party rights of appeal. If that is not the case, then we would be interested to know. I would also be interested to hear his views on the comments of my noble friend Lord Judd and of the noble Lord, Lord Reay. Each of them in a different way raises concerns about the planning system being bent to issues of growth and commercial development and that balance going astray. The Minister will be aware, if he can think back that far, that right at the start of our deliberations we had debates about getting the issues of the purpose of planning in the Bill, definitions of sustainable development, and the embedding of sustainable development at NPPF level, at local development framework level and at neighbourhood level, as one way of trying to make sure that the concerns that are increasingly being raised could be dealt with effectively.

At the end of the day, that issue comes back to the NPPF—for as long we do not have that and cannot debate it, we are always going to be left with this uncertainty. I think it is an opportune moment to hear directly from the Government as to whether they accept that charge or whether they maintain that the more traditional approach to sustainable development and a balanced approach, as my noble friend Lord Judd enunciated, is still their position.